Author Topic: How hardcore can you make a CR 11 Kobold Tribe using only NPC classes?  (Read 8917 times)

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Nytemare3701

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Re: How hardcore can you make a CR 11 Kobold Tribe using only NPC classes?
« Reply #20 on: December 10, 2010, 04:56:00 PM »
Invisible Spell on any concealment spell is amazing. High level characters are screwed by it, while the mooks don't care.

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Re: How hardcore can you make a CR 11 Kobold Tribe using only NPC classes?
« Reply #21 on: December 10, 2010, 04:56:59 PM »
Adept gets to double up, on the CR scale ... that's pretty good stuff combined with Dragon racial hd.

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Re: How hardcore can you make a CR 11 Kobold Tribe using only NPC classes?
« Reply #22 on: December 10, 2010, 06:33:22 PM »
Can anything be done offensively with Magewright? They have Grease, Right?

What about Experts with Iajutsu Focus?

What about Religious Adepts with varied domains, to get more obscure spells? Is there a domain that gets Grease as a first level spell, and if so, would that make Magewright obsolete for NPC's?

Also is there a Psionic NPC class somewhere?
« Last Edit: December 10, 2010, 06:40:44 PM by Gavinfoxx »
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Re: How hardcore can you make a CR 11 Kobold Tribe using only NPC classes?
« Reply #23 on: December 10, 2010, 06:44:56 PM »
What about Religious Adepts with varied domains, to get more obscure spells? Is there a domain that gets Grease as a first level spell, and if so, would that make Magewright obsolete for NPC's?
Could an adept with the Knowledge domain trade the domain power for Knowledge Devotion?

Also is there a Psionic NPC class somewhere?
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« Last Edit: December 10, 2010, 06:46:37 PM by Prime32 »
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skydragonknight

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Re: How hardcore can you make a CR 11 Kobold Tribe using only NPC classes?
« Reply #24 on: December 10, 2010, 06:53:34 PM »
No traps?
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

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Re: How hardcore can you make a CR 11 Kobold Tribe using only NPC classes?
« Reply #25 on: December 10, 2010, 06:55:43 PM »
No traps?

Fell Drain Zap Traps?
Some traps can be re-used via unconventional attacks, too.  A pit with some spikes at the bottom (optionally poisoned) may well come into play several times if a fight happens on a slope above it, and some kobolds are armed with oil or marbles.
To make it specific to Kobolds, use, erm... Profession(Miner), Draconic Rite of Passage, Dragonwrought and derivative feats, ... dire weasels, spears, and inexpensive traps? (do such things exist outside the Trapsmith?)

:p

Garryl

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Re: How hardcore can you make a CR 11 Kobold Tribe using only NPC classes?
« Reply #26 on: December 10, 2010, 07:04:29 PM »
Also, as far as I know, most purely magical traps (Explosive Runes, Zap Traps, etc) don't have a CR. So you could have ludicrous amounts of them without changing the expected CR one bit.

Invisible Spell is also nice to have and works almost equally well to annoy someone with See Invisibility/True Seeing.

Magic traps do have a CR. It's 1 + max level of spell (or 1 + 1/7 averagedamage per round). What they don't count against is NPC wealth if there are spellcasters that can make the traps themselves.
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Re: How hardcore can you make a CR 11 Kobold Tribe using only NPC classes?
« Reply #27 on: December 10, 2010, 07:12:50 PM »
There's a trap that casts four different spells spells of different schools before repeating...DMG2, I think. It's CR was 1+spell level (the usual, apparently). So if the trap casts a 9th level spell every round it is CR 10.
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

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Re: How hardcore can you make a CR 11 Kobold Tribe using only NPC classes?
« Reply #28 on: December 10, 2010, 07:41:59 PM »
There's a trap that casts four different spells spells of different schools before repeating...DMG2, I think. It's CR was 1+spell level (the usual, apparently). So if the trap casts a 9th level spell every round it is CR 10.

Wail of the banshee trap + one kobold with earmuffs?

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Re: How hardcore can you make a CR 11 Kobold Tribe using only NPC classes?
« Reply #29 on: December 11, 2010, 05:02:38 PM »
Gavinfox - Magewrights

I had a short thread back at 339, about the Magewright.
It's a snore, but it gets the same double up trick as Adepts on the CR scale.
It needs to retrain the spell gaining thingy, every level though.

Eberron Adept gets 1 domain on it's list , nothing else from it.
Forlorn "flaw" is really an ACF, and subs a feat for the Familiar.

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Re: How hardcore can you make a CR 11 Kobold Tribe using only NPC classes?
« Reply #30 on: December 12, 2010, 12:18:39 AM »
Also, as far as I know, most purely magical traps (Explosive Runes, Zap Traps, etc) don't have a CR. So you could have ludicrous amounts of them without changing the expected CR one bit.

Invisible Spell is also nice to have and works almost equally well to annoy someone with See Invisibility/True Seeing.

Magic traps do have a CR. It's 1 + max level of spell (or 1 + 1/7 averagedamage per round). What they don't count against is NPC wealth if there are spellcasters that can make the traps themselves.
So a Silent Image "trap" concealing a cliff's edge would only be CR 2?  :smirk
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Re: How hardcore can you make a CR 11 Kobold Tribe using only NPC classes?
« Reply #31 on: December 12, 2010, 05:18:06 PM »
It's in DMG II yes, it's called a Spell Turret.
It has a strict round-by-round basis tactic.
It's designed like this:

1st-4th round, 1 spell per turn. All spells from the same list, same level, different schools.
5th repair 4d8+20 points of damage.

It's unclear if any summoned monsters needs to touch the turret for it to cast touch-range spells on it. Example in the book states:

Quote

Stoneskin is a touch-range spell as we all know.
This turret is kinda annoying to face, just as an reflection.
It keeps on popping out summons, buff them whilst blasting you with lightning bolts all the same.

CR is equal to 1+spell level.
So somehow the following trap is CR 10.

1st round: Disjunction.
2nd round: Wail of the Banshee.
3rd round: Mass Hold Monster.
4th round: Sphere of Ultimate Destruction.
5th round: Repair 4d8+20.
6th round: Disjunction.
repeat until death.
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Re: How hardcore can you make a CR 11 Kobold Tribe using only NPC classes?
« Reply #32 on: December 13, 2010, 03:49:17 AM »
So I was thinking of how hardcore it would be possible to get a CR 11 encounter with a small tribe of NPC classed Kobolds to actually BE, using the CR system and the NPC classes.. We all know that the NPC classes can be optimized, what with all the Expert Skills, Religious Adepts getting Domains, a bunch of obscure Warrior weapons and specialized feats, and Magewright doing battlefield control, and both the Adepts and Magewrights using feats and other tricks to get access to more spells...

But I don't really know how this would actually pan out.  How hardcore COULD someone possibly make such an encounter? Does anyone have any ideas? What would the encounter look like?  The build of the kobolds?

i have a friend you need to meet. go over to the penandpapergames boards and look for "tesral". then ask him what can be done with a tribe of kobolds. i remember one story of his where he took down a mid level party with a tribe of kobolds and i don't think a single one was above 3rd, iirc. ^^
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Re: How hardcore can you make a CR 11 Kobold Tribe using only NPC classes?
« Reply #33 on: December 13, 2010, 11:40:29 PM »
Speaking of traps, here's a dart trap I made from an old post here on the boards, I'd hate to run up against it. This thing spews up to 8 black lotus darts in a 10x10 area like nobody's business

---
Magical Fusillade of Poisoned Darts: CR 6; magic device; touch trigger; automatic reset; Atk +19 ranged (1d4+1, dart, poison (black lotus extract, DC 20 Fortitude save resists, 3d6 Con/3d6 Con via psionic creation, minor)); multiple targets (1d8 darts per target in a 10-ft.-by-10-ft. area); Search DC 15; Disable Device DC 25. Market Price: 3,700 gold. XP Cost: 80

cost:
touch -100gp
automatic +500gp
search dc 15 -500gp
disable device +1000gp
attack bonus +19 1800gp
magical device creating darts via psionic creation, minor 500gp
magical device creating poison via psionic creation, minor 500gp
total gold cost: 3,700 gold
xp cost: 40 per spell = 80xp required

cr:
magic trap +1
creating darts via psionic creation, minor +1
creating poison via psionic creation, minor +1
search dc 15 -1
disable device 25 +1
attack bonus 19 +1
total: 6

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Re: How hardcore can you make a CR 11 Kobold Tribe using only NPC classes?
« Reply #34 on: December 14, 2010, 03:14:58 AM »
So, what if we wanted to limit the traps to things the group could have plausibly made themselves? Is there a psionic NPC class that is semi-official anywhere? What are some gods that kobolds could plausibly have for the Domain Adepts?
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Re: How hardcore can you make a CR 11 Kobold Tribe using only NPC classes?
« Reply #35 on: December 14, 2010, 03:20:11 AM »
So somehow the following trap is CR 10.

1st round: Disjunction.
2nd round: Wail of the Banshee.
3rd round: Mass Hold Monster.
4th round: Sphere of Ultimate Destruction.
5th round: Repair 4d8+20.
6th round: Disjunction.
repeat until death.
To be fair, it can't move and doesn't have exceptional sensory modes.  And can be defeated in a single round by a rogue with a disable device check.

I think it actually need LoS to be able to activate, so there's an obvious way to defeat it.
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« Last Edit: December 14, 2010, 03:35:33 AM by The_Mad_Linguist »
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Re: How hardcore can you make a CR 11 Kobold Tribe using only NPC classes?
« Reply #36 on: December 14, 2010, 11:03:51 AM »
Are we allowed to use lycantrope classes? Though that would mean no dragonwrought...
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Re: How hardcore can you make a CR 11 Kobold Tribe using only NPC classes?
« Reply #37 on: December 14, 2010, 07:33:15 PM »
Are we allowed to use lycantrope classes? Though that would mean no dragonwrought...

How much would dragonwrought help these guys out, really, with no sorcerers?

And no PC classes in general... maybe limit templates too? I dunno...
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Re: How hardcore can you make a CR 11 Kobold Tribe using only NPC classes?
« Reply #38 on: December 14, 2010, 08:34:43 PM »
Humanoid hd only counts as 1/4 per hd, in terms of CR.

So ... a 40+ hd Kobold is within reach. That's  p l e n t y  of Epic feats.
I was thinking the Commoner 20 build with Leadership and Undead Leadership etc
would work. Obviously doesn't need to be Commoner anymore.

Problem is, I have no idea how a Cohort gets counted in the CR ??
It either does or it doesn't, but I don't know.

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Re: How hardcore can you make a CR 11 Kobold Tribe using only NPC classes?
« Reply #39 on: December 14, 2010, 08:40:09 PM »
Kobolds can't advance via HD.
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