Author Topic: Breaking Truenaming  (Read 5756 times)

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SiggyDevil

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Breaking Truenaming
« on: December 06, 2010, 02:08:30 AM »
Hello. I plan on a house rule to implement the Truenaming ability as a skill anyone can use.

Before I do that, I need to know the worst of what it's capable of.

Assuming a character has Truenaming and any class/race combination and level-appropriate items, how broken can it get?

Sohala

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Re: Breaking Truenaming
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2010, 02:15:26 AM »
Factotums get to have more fun.
Able Learner/Factotum allows anyone to max ranks.
Human Paragon allows for max ranks.
Full investment of skill points into an item familiar could be interesting.


That is about the extent of my truenaming knowledge, sadly. It is like an ever increasing skil check right?
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Breaking Truenaming
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2010, 02:20:02 AM »
Don't they have an ability to "rebuild" a broken magic item? And aren't there some "tiles" that can be uses as an alternative to potions and/or scrolls, which you break during their use?
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Solo

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Re: Breaking Truenaming
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2010, 02:25:20 AM »
The only thing you ever have to worry about is the Gate utterance, and that's at levels 17 and above.

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Tenebrus

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Re: Breaking Truenaming
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2010, 02:25:48 AM »
By making it a skill for everyone, do you mean letting everyone use the Truenamer magic system even without being in the class?  Otherwise, I'm not sure what good it will do.  Good luck to you in bringing back this astoundingly -- indeed, famously -- broken class.  I'm trying to revive the Shadowcaster, so I feel your pain with that book.

I was curious how in the example character they got a 9th level Truenamer with +24 in Truespeak (ToM p.203).  Last I checked, you're allowed level + 3 in a skill.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Breaking Truenaming
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2010, 02:29:58 AM »
12 (ranks) + 2 (masterwork item) + 3 (skill focus) + 5 (some sort of item) +2 (aid another)
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SiggyDevil

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Re: Breaking Truenaming
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2010, 02:36:48 AM »
By making it a skill for everyone, do you mean letting everyone use the Truenamer magic system even without being in the class?  Otherwise, I'm not sure what good it will do. 

Yes, and the purpose is to give everyone magic utility. If it's underpowered, that's fine, but outright break-the-game is what I'm concerned about.



If Gate is the only problem, well, that's great. .... but my Broken Sense is still tingling.


CantripN

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Re: Breaking Truenaming
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2010, 02:38:08 AM »
Just an example of things you can do with a real Truenamer:
Illumian Truenamer 10

Truespeak: 53 + INT (13 Ranks + 13 Item Familiar + 10 Amulet + 10 Affiliation + 3 Skill Focus + 2 Masterwork Tool + 2 Racial + INT)

Evolving Mind:
1st - Inertia Surge (FoM/Standstill), Knight's Puissance (+2/-2 Attack), Universal Aptitude (+5/-5 Skill Checks).
2nd - Hidden Truth (+10 Knowledge/Bluff), Perceive the Unseen (Blind-Fight/Concealment), Strike of Might (+10/-5 Damage for 1 attack).
3rd - Seek the Sky (Fly/Counter-Fly), Temporal Spiral (Extra Move/Daze for 3 Rounds (Save)), G. Speed of the Zephyr (Haste/Slow), Vision Sharpened (See Invisibility/Invisibility).
4th - Spell Rebirth (Restore/Dispel Magic).
Next:
4th - Confounding Resistance (Evasion+Mettle/-2 to Saves).

Crafted Tool:
1st - Fortify Armor (+20 DC for Full Fortification), Keen Weapon.
Next:
3rd - Rebuild Item.

Perfected Map:
1st - Fog from the Void (DC 30 + 10 DC for Solid Fog + 5 DC for Magical Location).

This guy is just a simple build, but he can do an awful lot of those, and use 2 per round with no chance of failure whatsoever for a bit using Quicken Utterance. Other than the Dazing ability, none of those offer a save, mind. And you have Extend Utterance, so most of those last for a while.
Sure, a Wizard of that level can do more powerful things, sometimes, but his spells can be avoided - these have no Save, no Touch Attack, No SR, nothing!
« Last Edit: December 09, 2010, 08:12:18 PM by CantripN »
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Daniel678

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Re: Breaking Truenaming
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2010, 03:56:03 AM »
The spell Truename Dispel is a bard/cleric/druid/wizard spell that requires knowledge of your opponent's personal truename and a successful truespeak check. Aside from that it is the most powerful single target dispel in the game by large amount. You learn every magical effect on the target, you can choose which ones you want to be dispelled and they are removed with NO caster level check. You can remove debuffs from yourself or an ally, dispel all of the buffs from that CL 45 red wizard with 40 persistent spells, or anything else that you want to do.

While the power of this spell is definitely based off of how many prebuffs are used in your game it is unmatched for when you know you are going to be fighting a specific caster and have some spare time before the fight.

It's probably worth mentioning that this spell does not allow a saving throw or SR. The only defense against it (Ritual of Renaming) requires a Truespeak check, an XP cost and it only works for one encounter (then you can research their new truename) or until the caster divines that they cast it.

CantripN

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Re: Breaking Truenaming
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2010, 03:58:28 AM »
The spell Truename Dispel is a bard/cleric/druid/wizard spell that requires knowledge of your opponent's personal truename and a successful truespeak check. Aside from that it is the most powerful single target dispel in the game by large amount. You learn every magical effect on the target, you can choose which ones you want to be dispelled and they are removed with NO caster level check. You can remove debuffs from yourself or an ally, dispel all of the buffs from that CL 45 red wizard with 40 persistent spells, or anything else that you want to do.

While the power of this spell is definitely based off of how many prebuffs are used in your game it is unmatched for when you know you are going to be fighting a specific caster and have some spare time before the fight.

It's probably worth mentioning that this spell does not allow a saving throw or SR. The only defense against it (Ritual of Renaming) requires a Truespeak check, an XP cost and it only works for one encounter (then you can research their new truename) or until the caster divines that they cast it.

I wonder, if you get this as an Innate Spell or a Supernatural Ability via Dweomerkeeper, do you still need the Truename? It removes that component, after all... :D

Oh, and it's a 6th level spell for a Bard, 8th for the rest. Chameleon or Sublime Chord much?
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JaronK

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Re: Breaking Truenaming
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2010, 04:57:48 AM »
The big one is Rebuild Item with potion tiles, which lets you spam any potion you want, remaking it right after.  However, potions max out at level 3 (IIRC) so this isn't going to be amazing forever.

The other one is that they can eventually spam Gate (at level 20 IIRC). 

That's about it.

JaronK

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Re: Breaking Truenaming
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2010, 09:31:14 AM »
I'd suggest also allowing Truespeak checks in place of Decipher Script checks.
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Cannotthink

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Re: Breaking Truenaming
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2010, 11:39:40 AM »


Aharon

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Re: Breaking Truenaming
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2010, 04:00:32 PM »
Most broken example: Skill boni are transferred by Polymorph. The garbler, an 11 HD aberration in the ToM, has the ability
Skills: A garbler always succeeds at his Truespeak checks.
I wasn't really sure, but the people who cared enough to answer my question concerning this in the ever continuing Q&A threads agreed that this is transmitted.


Truenaming benefits strongly from having many sourcebooks available. The potion tile trick was already mentioned, but it works even better if Magic of Faerun and/or Magic of Eberron are allowed. Magic of Faerun has a potion-oriented class (Alchemist, I think) that can create 4th to 9th level potions, and Magic of Eberron has the alchemist savant, which can create potions containing infusions. Having rechargeable Metamagic Item: Persistent Spell is nice.

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Nice, I didn't know about that one.

Quote from: CantripN
Sure, a Wizard of that level can do more powerful things, sometimes, but his spells can be avoided - these have no Save, no Touch Attack, No SR, nothing!

That would be nice... but actually, Silence gives you a 20% failure chance, just like for spellcasting - but you don't get silent utterances. And total concealment works as well,. But then, that defeats targeted spells, as well.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2010, 04:08:40 PM by Aharon »
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Re: Breaking Truenaming
« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2010, 07:04:43 PM »
I'll 4th PhaeXY , JaronK , and Aharon.

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lans

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Re: Breaking Truenaming
« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2010, 06:20:13 PM »
The big one is Rebuild Item with potion tiles, which lets you spam any potion you want, remaking it right after.  However, potions max out at level 3 (IIRC) so this isn't going to be amazing forever.

The other one is that they can eventually spam Gate (at level 20 IIRC). 

That's about it.

JaronK
It also works on scrolls, and other items I believe.
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Aharon

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Re: Breaking Truenaming
« Reply #17 on: December 10, 2010, 07:59:05 PM »
Other items yes, scrolls unfortunately no. The wording was something that tries to bolster the "rebuilding" concept, and scrolls aren't actually broken by using them. There are only few things that work this way: Potion Tiles, some magic staffs (staff of power, staff of the magi), and an item from some of the more obscure FR sourcebooks ([somebody's] delicate disc, I think).
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dna1

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Re: Breaking Truenaming
« Reply #18 on: December 10, 2010, 08:10:09 PM »
iv never bothered to check out the truenamer because a friend of mine told me they sucked..  but this truename dispell looks pretty nice.
but whats all this  [spoiler]
[/spoiler]

i dont get it.. can someone gimme a quick breakdown of a truenamers coolness?
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Re: Breaking Truenaming
« Reply #19 on: December 10, 2010, 08:43:37 PM »
It's an abuse of an infinitely stacking skill bonus (which only goes away when you directly attack people).
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