Author Topic: Help me to understand...  (Read 8676 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

PhaedrusXY

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 8022
  • Advanced Spambot
Re: Help me to understand...
« Reply #20 on: December 03, 2010, 01:17:36 PM »
Oh yes, Senses is sweet.  Improved Initiative for everyone in the party that stacks with actual Improved Initiative? Yes please.
Does it apply to everyone if you take it as a "true dragon", rather than taking the feat? It doesn't sound like it, from reading it over...

"Unless otherwise noted, your draconic aura affects all allies within 30 feet (including yourself with line of effect to you." -- Dragon Magic page 86.  Are you seeing a note somewhere that says otherwise, or just taking "you" in the aura descriptions to mean "you the aura projector exclusively"?
Hmm... I thought that line was in the feat description, not on page 86. I guess I overlooked it. YAY! Free punch and pie for the whole party! :D
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

SorO_Lost

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2355
  • I'll kill you before you're born.
Re: Help me to understand...
« Reply #21 on: December 03, 2010, 03:15:24 PM »
Dragon Magic is one of those powerful books. Take the time to read though it. :)
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

BeholderSlayer

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1258
Re: Help me to understand...
« Reply #22 on: December 03, 2010, 04:01:42 PM »
Snowcasting + Draconic Aura (Cold) = +4 DC to all spells??

You could make quite a nasty little DC sorcerer on a kobold. Save or Die bitch!
« Last Edit: December 03, 2010, 04:04:13 PM by BeholderSlayer »
Hi Welcome
[spoiler]
Allow me to welcome you both with my literal words and with an active display of how much you fit in by being tone deaf, dumb, and uncritical of your babbling myself.[/spoiler]

Mixster

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1642
Re: Help me to understand...
« Reply #23 on: December 03, 2010, 04:09:20 PM »
Everyone likes save or dies. The downside isn't the fact you can get a huge bonus, but immunity.

What good is your save or die vs Death Ward?
Also, dragons do get items to wear.

Save or dies are great, but saveless dies are of course better.
Yeah, Death Ward is the only meaningful defense against save-or-die spells, and holy crap does it work.  This is why there is a collection of spells referred to as "save-or-lose" spells, since they basically assure the death of whatever it is that gets hit by them without actually killing them.

Also saveless lose spells are really rare, nevermind saveless die spells.  Then again, Reverse Gravity is core.

As long as we are in the habit of asking questions that many find obvious, why is reverse gravity a no-save lose spell?
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

JaronK

Meep Meep - Mixster out

BeholderSlayer

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1258
Re: Help me to understand...
« Reply #24 on: December 03, 2010, 04:12:08 PM »
Everyone likes save or dies. The downside isn't the fact you can get a huge bonus, but immunity.

What good is your save or die vs Death Ward?
Also, dragons do get items to wear.

Save or dies are great, but saveless dies are of course better.
Yeah, Death Ward is the only meaningful defense against save-or-die spells, and holy crap does it work.  This is why there is a collection of spells referred to as "save-or-lose" spells, since they basically assure the death of whatever it is that gets hit by them without actually killing them.

Also saveless lose spells are really rare, nevermind saveless die spells.  Then again, Reverse Gravity is core.

As long as we are in the habit of asking questions that many find obvious, why is reverse gravity a no-save lose spell?
Well, it only qualifies as such if the enemy(ies) can't fly. If they can't they are basically out of the fight and you can do with them what you please. It's a good divide and conquer tactic.
Hi Welcome
[spoiler]
Allow me to welcome you both with my literal words and with an active display of how much you fit in by being tone deaf, dumb, and uncritical of your babbling myself.[/spoiler]

bearsarebrown

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2616
Re: Help me to understand...
« Reply #25 on: December 03, 2010, 04:12:49 PM »
 By the time 8th level spells are going around anyone who can't fly has already lost.

BeholderSlayer

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1258
Re: Help me to understand...
« Reply #26 on: December 03, 2010, 04:13:50 PM »
By the time 8th level spells are going around anyone who can't fly has already lost.
All too true. I won't disagree with that, but it can be a good spells in *some* games (not mine, heh).

That Draconic Aura feat actually almost makes taking Dragonwrought a decision to be made. Losing an 8th level spell known to get the +4 bonus could be rough for some builds. Taking the feat and having the dragonblood subtype (which you lose if you are dragonwrought) makes it automatically progress as you level.

I know, the numerous benefits of being a dragon probably outweigh it, but some people might actually rather do it that way.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2010, 04:18:10 PM by BeholderSlayer »
Hi Welcome
[spoiler]
Allow me to welcome you both with my literal words and with an active display of how much you fit in by being tone deaf, dumb, and uncritical of your babbling myself.[/spoiler]

SorO_Lost

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2355
  • I'll kill you before you're born.
Re: Help me to understand...
« Reply #27 on: December 03, 2010, 08:17:44 PM »
I know, the numerous benefits of being a dragon probably outweigh it, but some people might actually rather do it that way.
A True Dragon? Well yeah.

The wannabe? Best case they lose Loredrake, -2 caster advancement. But at that point they are a White Dragonspawn Abomination and casting at +2~+NI anyway so who cares. Besides, if the DM is that type to allow loredrake kobolds, your cohort's undead familiar makes up any casting loss anyway. ;)
« Last Edit: December 03, 2010, 08:20:33 PM by SorO_Lost »
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

BeholderSlayer

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1258
Re: Help me to understand...
« Reply #28 on: December 03, 2010, 10:46:27 PM »
+2~+NI
Pardon my ignorance...huh? Do you mean Pun-Pun-esque, or something else (along the lines of the +7 (without Loredrake) - +9 (with it), that I brought up the other day in a kobold thread)?

I do agree that in a campaign using copious cheese you won't miss the spell known, though.

I'm not arguing whether Dragonwrought necessarily qualifies you for Loredrake or utilizing the spell slot mechanic, I just don't understand.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2010, 10:51:20 PM by BeholderSlayer »
Hi Welcome
[spoiler]
Allow me to welcome you both with my literal words and with an active display of how much you fit in by being tone deaf, dumb, and uncritical of your babbling myself.[/spoiler]

X-Codes

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3941
Re: Help me to understand...
« Reply #29 on: December 03, 2010, 11:19:06 PM »
White Dragonspawn Abomination essentially gives a random number of levels of sorcerer progression.  Since there's a "roll twice again" entry on the table, you could, in theory, just keep hitting "roll twice again" and get NI sorcerer levels added to your character for a mere +4 ECL, although the chances of that happening are very, very small.

If I had the book I could run the numbers and come up with an average, but I don't, and it's probably a bit anti-climatic anyways (the average is probably not much larger than 2).

BeholderSlayer

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1258
Re: Help me to understand...
« Reply #30 on: December 03, 2010, 11:32:38 PM »
White Dragonspawn Abomination essentially gives a random number of levels of sorcerer progression.  Since there's a "roll twice again" entry on the table, you could, in theory, just keep hitting "roll twice again" and get NI sorcerer levels added to your character for a mere +4 ECL, although the chances of that happening are very, very small.

If I had the book I could run the numbers and come up with an average, but I don't, and it's probably a bit anti-climatic anyways (the average is probably not much larger than 2).
The "roll twice again" entry, I believe, tells you to reroll any additional rolls that fall in its range. I think the most you could get out of it is 6 from the table (assuming you rolled rather than picking one from the list on the next page). Then tack on the Rite, Dragonspawn, and Loredrake and that's 10 levels tops, with a chance of 0.05^9, 0.0000000001953125%.

Edit: actually, I just realized my statistics are a little off on that due to the way the table works, the chance is just a tad higher, but not enough to make it significant. It's still an astronomically low chance. FYI, it's a d% chance and there are 20 options. All of them have a 5% chance.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2010, 11:42:21 PM by BeholderSlayer »
Hi Welcome
[spoiler]
Allow me to welcome you both with my literal words and with an active display of how much you fit in by being tone deaf, dumb, and uncritical of your babbling myself.[/spoiler]

Bauglir

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2346
  • TriOptimum
Re: Help me to understand...
« Reply #31 on: December 04, 2010, 12:20:55 AM »
FYI, it's a d% chance and there are 20 options. All of them have a 5% chance.

Who wrote this. Why not use a d20.
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

BeholderSlayer

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1258
Re: Help me to understand...
« Reply #32 on: December 04, 2010, 12:23:24 AM »
FYI, it's a d% chance and there are 20 options. All of them have a 5% chance.

Who wrote this. Why not use a d20.
Some Dragonlance author....d20 works of course.
Hi Welcome
[spoiler]
Allow me to welcome you both with my literal words and with an active display of how much you fit in by being tone deaf, dumb, and uncritical of your babbling myself.[/spoiler]

Echoes

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 476
Re: Help me to understand...
« Reply #33 on: December 04, 2010, 12:46:35 AM »
Snowcasting + Draconic Aura (Cold) = +4 DC to all spells??

You could make quite a nasty little DC sorcerer on a kobold. Save or Die bitch!

Yeah, it's pretty solid. Add in Eschew Materials to not actually need a handful of snow if that bit gets annoying.

Since you're going the cold route anyway, you can grab Cold Focus + Greater Cold Focus for an extra +2 DC to all of your spells. And since we're here, why not wear some icemail armor? It counts as a +3 mithral breastplate that grants cold resist 30, except that it has 0% ASF and gives +2 DC for spells with the cold descriptor, which for you is all of them.
BrokeAndDrive speaks the Truth (linked for great justice and signature limits)

Quotes I Found Entertaining:

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

As a general rule, murdering people and taking their stuff is pretty much superior to breaking their stuff, murdering them, then not having any stuff to take.

Out of Context Theater
[spoiler]
Oh I'll make a party. I'll make a party so hard... I'll make a party that makes you feel so awkward downstairs.

You'll see the party and only be able to respond, "Oh yeah baby."
[/spoiler]

BeholderSlayer

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1258
Re: Help me to understand...
« Reply #34 on: December 04, 2010, 01:33:02 AM »
Snowcasting + Draconic Aura (Cold) = +4 DC to all spells??

You could make quite a nasty little DC sorcerer on a kobold. Save or Die bitch!

Yeah, it's pretty solid. Add in Eschew Materials to not actually need a handful of snow if that bit gets annoying.

Since you're going the cold route anyway, you can grab Cold Focus + Greater Cold Focus for an extra +2 DC to all of your spells. And since we're here, why not wear some icemail armor? It counts as a +3 mithral breastplate that grants cold resist 30, except that it has 0% ASF and gives +2 DC for spells with the cold descriptor, which for you is all of them.
Yeah, I had written something about Eschew but deleted it in an edit.

Nice find on that armor, too. Optimizing for charisma will net you over 50 charisma, so that kobold's looking at a DC of at least 10 + 21 + 4 + 1 + 1 + 2 = 38 + spell level...damn nasty. What other universal DC boosts could you pick up?
Hi Welcome
[spoiler]
Allow me to welcome you both with my literal words and with an active display of how much you fit in by being tone deaf, dumb, and uncritical of your babbling myself.[/spoiler]

X-Codes

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3941
Re: Help me to understand...
« Reply #35 on: December 04, 2010, 01:47:03 AM »
Planar Wizard Sub-Level 10 + Spell Focus [Good] for another +3 with a conditional +4, and if you're a native of a good-aligned plane you can use the Planar Bubble spell to get the +4 pretty easily.  Elysium is a good plane to pick as home.  The same kind of stunt can be done with Malign Spell Focus if you're evil.

BeholderSlayer

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1258
Re: Help me to understand...
« Reply #36 on: December 04, 2010, 02:04:40 AM »
Draconic Power will give you another +1 if you are using the White Dragon. However, it's a little ambiguous whether Dragonwrought itself qualifies you for the feat, or if you actually have to take the Draconic Heritage feat as well.

Based on strict RAW, you probably do have to get Draconic Heritage, which just seems a little odd since you lost your Dragonblood subtype when you took Dragonwrought, only to pick it up again later. It also seems a little silly because of the use of "draconic heritage" in the Dragonwrought feat, although it's with lowercase first letters. You'd get a +2 bonus to saves against things you're already immune to, and you really will only pick up a class skill and access to the other Dragon Heritage feats, which aren't extremely strong for the most part.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2010, 02:22:39 AM by BeholderSlayer »
Hi Welcome
[spoiler]
Allow me to welcome you both with my literal words and with an active display of how much you fit in by being tone deaf, dumb, and uncritical of your babbling myself.[/spoiler]

The_Mad_Linguist

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 8780
  • Simulated Thing
Re: Help me to understand...
« Reply #37 on: December 04, 2010, 05:05:33 AM »
FYI, it's a d% chance and there are 20 options. All of them have a 5% chance.

Who wrote this. Why not use a d20.
So things that let you reroll arbitrary d20s don't work on it.

You can still use luck domain + doomwarding weapon +Phaant's luckstone to get three rerolls, though.  Which helps.

Now, if you can use a luckstone separately for each roll, then your odds are actually pretty decent (expected sorcerer levels is about 0.22 without rerolls, goes up to about a third).

Assuming you use a luckstone whenever needed, and burn a single reroll, expected value of each abomination check is
(2*(1-(18/19)^2))*(1/2)*(1-(9/10)^3) +1/2 (1-(9/10)^3) = 0.163275623
« Last Edit: December 04, 2010, 06:10:22 AM by The_Mad_Linguist »
Linguist, Mad, Unique, none of these things am I
My custom class: The Priest of the Unseen Host
Planetouched Handbook
Want to improve your character?  Then die.

Echoes

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 476
Re: Help me to understand...
« Reply #38 on: December 05, 2010, 11:35:08 PM »
Planar Wizard Sub-Level 10 + Spell Focus [Good] for another +3 with a conditional +4, and if you're a native of a good-aligned plane you can use the Planar Bubble spell to get the +4 pretty easily.  Elysium is a good plane to pick as home.  The same kind of stunt can be done with Malign Spell Focus if you're evil.

If you wanted to be really stupid, go the Evil route, and then grab Fiendish Heritage + Fiendish Power for another +1 to all of your Evil spells (which is all of them). Use the DCFS + items that grant feats or something to make room. At this point you've pretty much hit diminishing returns on your investment, but it's hilarious.

"No no, all of my spells are [Cold, Evil] spells because I'm attuned to Evil and am Eschewing a handful of snow as an optional material component. Thanks to my human-fiendish-draconic lineage (it's a messed up family tree), this makes my spells stupidly hard to resist somehow."
BrokeAndDrive speaks the Truth (linked for great justice and signature limits)

Quotes I Found Entertaining:

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

As a general rule, murdering people and taking their stuff is pretty much superior to breaking their stuff, murdering them, then not having any stuff to take.

Out of Context Theater
[spoiler]
Oh I'll make a party. I'll make a party so hard... I'll make a party that makes you feel so awkward downstairs.

You'll see the party and only be able to respond, "Oh yeah baby."
[/spoiler]

X-Codes

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3941
Re: Help me to understand...
« Reply #39 on: December 06, 2010, 12:27:58 AM »
You could always say that your mother was a half-fiend half-white dragon and gave birth to you on the fifth layer of Hell, at which point you said "screw this place" and plane shifted yourself to the Prime Material.