Trying to learn the Epic Spellcasting system... help??

[Gavinfoxx]

Okay. I've taken it upon myself to try and learn and understand the Epic Spellcasting system, and it's limitations, it's strengths, and maybe the main amount of 'fixes' to the system.  I've got the Epic Level Handbook, the Errata, and the 3.5 update to the Epic Level Handbook.

What other books do I need that have epic spells in them?

From what I have heard, people talked about something along the lines of "Epic spells being NEVER worth it, or, if you use cheese, ALWAYS worth it and incredibly so."

Has anyone ever consolidated a handbook or a guide to how to do Epic Spellcasting? And maybe some of the 'simple fixes' to the system?  What are some of the main sets of interpretations for how Epic Spellcasting should work? The main pitfalls? I would really like to talk to someone about this, thanks!

[bearsarebrown]

Mitigating costs with your Gated Solar army's spellslots allows for DCs spells which would otherwise have DCs in the thousands.

[Garryl]

The basics of Epic Spellcasting are on the SRD, along with a couple dozen premade spells. Basically, for every 10 ranks in Spellcraft (may be one of the Knowledges based on your class though) you get to cast one epic spell/day from any that you know. Actually casting it requires a massively high spellcraft check and probably other requirements based on the spell in question. If you don't cheese anything and only use the premade spells, epic spellcasting is underwhelming due to the unimpressive effects of anything with a semi-reasonable Spellcraft DC and the overwhelming Spellcraft DCs and other limitations of everything half-decent.

Creating your own epic spells is where it starts to get good. You can base your spell on one or more of several "seeds", each one based on some general concepts and abilities that the spell can use. Each option you select increases the Spellcraft check needed to actually make the spell and cast it, but there are many optional mitigating factors that can reduce the DC of the check. Further, you're allowed to select options for abilities and effects that aren't actually listed as long as they fit with the seeds you are using and you assign it an appropriate ad-hoc Spellcraft adjustment.

The cheese that makes it awesome comes from a combination of boosting your Spellcraft checks to massive levels, using mitigating factors to reduce the Spellcraft DC of an awesome spell to a negligible value, and using custom effects to do whatever you feel like.

[BeholderSlayer]

Common mitigating factors are contributed spells from your Solar army, and casting time in your flowing time demiplane. A lot of custom epic spells are not combat-oriented, and rather are used as defensive measures or creating effects outside of combat to destroy your enemy. To get really good in-combat spells, you'll have to optimize your Spellcraft check and possibly take some backlash damage for casting.

Typical uses for epic spells are things like:
Permanent Immunity to weapon based damaged
Permanent Immunity to magic based damage
Permanent Immunity to spells below epic level

I'm not too familiar with using them offensively, I'm sure others will be able to contribute.

Also, just going from memory, I thought the number of your epic spell slots was based on your Knowledge: Arcana (for arcanes) and Knowledge: Religion (for divines) scores. I might be wrong.

[Gavinfoxx]

So does anyone have any examples of some '0 gp, 0 spellcraft, can research in an instant' epic spells that have extremely high spellcraft DC's before mitigation, and do some totally awesome / obscene / broken things? I'd like to see an example of this system taken to the max, if possible...

[bearsarebrown]

From the hip. Ignore the fact that AC and DR are ignorable at this high of level.

Using the Armor seed to buff AC. This doesn't use a Solar army, only standard non-epic Leadership. It grants 197 AC permanently with a DC of 5. Using this exact same procedure with Fortify you can grant yourself DR 184/Epic.
[spoiler]
14 Armor Base
-220 Casting time 100 days
-2 to make personal
-179 followers spell slots
+387 to raise AC
=1 * 5 to make permanent = DC 5

17 Fortify Base
-220 Casting time 100 days
-2 Personal
-179 followers
+15 to make DR epic
+369 to raise DR
=1 * 5 to make permanent = DC 5
Followers
[spoiler]All of them are Adepts. You have 155 first level spell slots, 8 second level spell slots. [/spoiler]
[/spoiler]

[Gavinfoxx]

Shouldn't this be Deflection AC, since that works on more things? =D =D

Also... it seems to me that a high level epic spellcaster should maybe spend some time founding a school of Adepts / Magewrights / Psiwrights or something...

[bearsarebrown]

Don't need to. Start Gating your Solar army. It's free and unbelievably more powerful.

[BeholderSlayer]

Don't need to. Start Gating your Solar army. It's free and unbelievably more powerful.

Gate + Mindrape for permanent lackies

[Amechra]

Question; is it possible to make an Epic spell that alters another epic spell? I don't mean dispels, I mean alters how that spell works, like making it deal damage or give a buff to anyone under the effect of that spell?

[betrayor]

Don't need to. Start Gating your Solar army. It's free and unbelievably more powerful.

You could even give the epic spellcasting feat to the solars(through DCFS) for even more power....

[snakeman830]

Permanantly grant target Tarrasque Regeneration:

Transform Seed base 21
Specific Individual: +25 (46)
Grant Extraordinary Ability: +10 (56)
Extend casting time by 10 minutes (11 minutes total): -20 (36)
2 9th level spell slost donated (ally or cohort could supply): -34 (2)
21st level slots donated (could be hired first level wizards or something): -2 (0)

There we are.  11 minutes, two allies, and a couple of hireings to make anyone you want nigh impossible to kill for no gold, xp, or research time.

[Amechra]

Question: How would you duplicate an epic version of the Shared Pain, Forced power, that wasn't Mind Affecting and had no range limit?

[Gavinfoxx]

Wow... I remember somewhere that there was some rule mentioned in one of the FR books, for maybe Mythals or something, that talked about a rule with regards to the mitigation thing, that limited it somehow, that some folk suggested as a way to limit how 'easy' you can make it?? Or something? I dunno...

[Echoes]

I would recommend the following (adjust mitigating factors to taste if you don't use Dweomerkeeper or XP dodges).

Seed: Ward (14)
Duration: 24 Hours
Cost: 20,000 XP (-200)
Casting Time: Standard action (+20)
Target: Personal (-2)
Ritual: 16 1st-level spells (-16)
Effect: Unaffected by all spells up to 10th level (+180)

Final Spellcraft DC: 0 (0 GP, 0 XP, 1 day to develop).

This spell makes you immune to all spells of 10th level or lower, including epic spells. You can bypass the XP cost however you like (a thought bottle works well, but see below for a better solution). What makes this stupid-good, however, is if you are a Dweomerkeeper. Just cast this each day as a Supernatural Spell, and suddenly it has no XP cost and can't be dispelled (save by an epic destroy or dispel effect). Best of all, you can still buff yourself all you like, and all of your buffs will be immune to dispelling as well.

[Paradox]

I don't think that Dweomerkeeper's ability applies to epic spells, unless that epic spell modified a regular spell.

[Echoes]

I don't think that Dweomerkeeper's ability applies to epic spells, unless that epic spell modified a regular spell.

Once per day as a standard action, you can use any one spell with a casting time of up to 1 standard action as a supernatural ability. The spell chosen must be one that is currently available to you (that is, one that you have prepared), but you can decide at the moment of casting to use this ability.

It says any one spell you have prepared. Why wouldn't it work?

[Amechra]

If you had Uncanny Forethought, and 10th level slots, could you cast any Epic spells you know, up to Int mod times per day?-

[CantripN]

If you had Uncanny Forethought, and 10th level slots, could you cast any Epic spells you know, up to Int mod times per day?-

Ah. Yes, I think. Gross manipulation of intent, but yes.

[Amechra]

And we can throw together the Chaotic Recall trick, to fill those slots with the Epic Spell we're casting...

How abusive can we get this to be?