Author Topic: What is the best psionic gish build?  (Read 12736 times)

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Endarire

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What is the best psionic gish build?
« on: November 28, 2010, 09:49:36 PM »
I know about the Chrono Legionnaire and Neo Trancer.  I preemptively point at my sig and call, "Hood" before anyone else.

Now, let's get serious.

All sources are allowed, pending DM approval.  We begin at ECL1 with standard wealth.  My teammates and the setting are uncertain.

Psion, Erudite, PsyWar, or Ardent:  Which to use for a base in a manifester-heavy gish build?  Which PrCs and powers work best?  What else should I know?
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

skydragonknight

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Re: What is the best psionic gish build?
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2010, 09:58:06 PM »
Kalastar Tashalatora (Monk)/Ardent with Customize Mantle and Linked Power/Dominant Ideal is hard to beat.

Stacking size increases you get absurd base unarmed damage, which if you can get Weapon of the Vampire turns into amazing self-healing. Throw in Robilar's Gambit and you instantly heal from your counterattack when you take melee damage.
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

KellKheraptis

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Re: What is the best psionic gish build?
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2010, 10:02:59 PM »
All sources?  As in...ALL sources?  StP Erudite, abusing Mirror Move, tricks to get arcane and divine 9's, tricks to get all powers known, and if you can swing it, go Magic Mantle Erudite instead, using a cohort or grandfather clause to get all spells as powers, and then take Incantatrix.  You have 0 banned schools even, as you don't have any to ban.  Now, to gish, prebuff all those wicked powerful spells and powers, recharge with persistent mental pinnacle, and proceed to show the party and DM what Tier -3 means :)  Oh, and you're a better hood than the hood, as you get access to ALL their damage multipliers with a few spells or powers cast ;)  And all on THEIR turn without effectively using an action.
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skydragonknight

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Re: What is the best psionic gish build?
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2010, 10:06:26 PM »
So are we still talking practical op? :P
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

Lycanthromancer

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Re: What is the best psionic gish build?
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2010, 10:22:40 PM »
For purely practical optimization, a psychic warrior makes an excellent gish at all levels of the game. The Big Guy Is With Me (or a variation thereof) is incredulously potent once metamorphosis comes into play, and that one can be done with any manifesting class (other than divine mind, but we don't talk about that).
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Saeomon

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Re: What is the best psionic gish build?
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2010, 11:00:08 PM »
When you say "manifester heavy," do you mean, "primarily a manifester, but able to wade into melee and be a competent combatant?" If so, the standard Psion gish is perfectly viable:

Ranger 1/Fighter 1/Psion 4/Slayer 9/Sanctified Mind 5
Alternatives: sub out Fighter for another level of Ranger; replace Sanctified Mind level with the last level of Slayer and four more levels of Psion.

Other options:

The Diamond Dragon PrC from Dragon Magic has a gishy feel to it.

The following are purely theoretical, but if adapted to Psionics would make fine, if not great, gishes:

Daggerspell Mage
Abjurant Champion
Jade Phoenix Mage
« Last Edit: November 28, 2010, 11:07:14 PM by Saeomon »

Endarire

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Re: What is the best psionic gish build?
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2010, 11:18:49 PM »
Kell, I request you explain these tricks.  My brain hurts.  (|=^)
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

Sohala

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Re: What is the best psionic gish build?
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2010, 11:37:54 PM »
If we are talking about a cool DM, I would see if I could convert some arcane classes to psionic. I have a character planned out as an ardent/jade pheonix mage/abjurant champion. The game is paused at only first level, but all the  bonuses being applied to a single strike, makes it looks cool if I ever get to play it.
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KellKheraptis

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Re: What is the best psionic gish build?
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2010, 07:23:30 PM »
Magic mantle forces full transparency, more than normal.  Qualify for Incantatrix with 3rd level powers, and advance Erudite with it.  Also, the "every spell exists as a power" trick is basically stating there were StP's before you, thus you can learn them, and PsyRef out your freebies+create temporary power stones to eventually snag every single one of them.  Hell, grab a ToAL even :P  Even without that, an StP erudite is a well know triple nine, and that alone makes you the gish from hell due to access to recharge and every buff spell and power ever.
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awaken DM golem

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Re: What is the best psionic gish build?
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2010, 09:47:37 PM »
Discipline Erudite is pretty simple and straightforward.
Pick Psychokinesis for the Evocation link.
Take the Elemental Envoy at level 1, keep til at least level 7.
Pick buff powers to share with the EE.
Get a Cleric to give you (with minor Dragon #349 help)
Divine Power at level 7. Psi is a mini-persist.
Can go Big Guy variant after that.

You + EE = good gish early from 1 to 3, good enough gish from 4 to 6
Standard Erudite fun and games at and after level 7.

skydragonknight

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Re: What is the best psionic gish build?
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2010, 09:52:22 PM »
Counterpoints:

[spoiler]Convert Spell to Power

Your training has included basic magical theory as well as the usual psionic training.

Replaces: You lose your 1st-level bonus feat.

Benefit: You add Spellcraft to your class skill list, which allows you to attempt to convert an arcane spell into a power you can add to your repertoire. You treat the spell as a discipline power for the basis of learning it, and you must first succeed on a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + the spell's level) and then a Psicraft check as per the normal rules of learning a discipline power (see page 154 of Complete Psionic).

... ... ...

Because the spells are now effectively psionic powers, they are no longer affected by metamagic feats. [/spoiler]

So you get all sorc/wizard spells, bard spells and probably domain spells...after that, you're basically hunting down wyrm wizards and anything you get from that is DM fiat and should be discounted.

The last line is important even with magic mantle, because isn't proper TO procedure that specific overrides general? Magic mantle is very general while the "no longer affected by metamagic feat" line is quite specific RAW. I.E. Magic and psionics may be handled the same effect-wise, but any spell converted to a power gets the "no metamagic, please" tag on it. You would need an equally specific line "psionic powers are now affected by metaamagic." to counteract it.

Just another interpretation. I'd be interested to see if there's a more reliable divine->arcane conversion than wyrm wizard, because as I said, unless you're partying with one, that heavily relies on DM fiat as they are NPCs.
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

awaken DM golem

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Re: What is the best psionic gish build?
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2010, 10:09:19 PM »
More details might help ...
Get a Cleric to give you (with minor Dragon #349 help)
Divine Power at level 7.

Take the Chameleon Crafting feat.
Make a Powerstone, with the Cleric providing the Divine Power.
You have a Powerstone of Divine Power.
Minor detail ... it's an evocation/psychokinesis power now, not spell.
Then the Erudite learns it and dumps it into the Repertoire.

This gets around the ES2P set-up, but at a cost.
You have to have the two feats, and the powerstone of the spell.
It's very expensive, much more expensive than what Wizards do.
S2P doesn't need these -- "attempt to convert an arcane spell into a power"
is something it does by itself, via the class ability. And it's cheaper.
Luckily, the Discipline Eru can just PsyRef the feats away after all the work.
Still very expensive.

skydragonknight

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Re: What is the best psionic gish build?
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2010, 10:18:41 PM »
Chameleon Crafting is in Dragon 349?
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

Jopustopin

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Re: What is the best psionic gish build?
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2010, 10:33:19 PM »
Psychic Warrior/The Psychic Weapon Master/Warblade

Critical hit build.

I'd use a Jovar you know, for fun.  But dual kukri's are in style.

awaken DM golem

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Re: What is the best psionic gish build?
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2010, 09:01:33 PM »
Chameleon Crafting is in Dragon 349?
Yep ... it's the bomb ... really bomb bomb.

Make powerstone of spell X with 1 charge = cheap.
Use the un-CPsi-nerfed powerstone trick.
Make DM cry, like weeping.

ninjarabbit

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Re: What is the best psionic gish build?
« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2010, 09:08:56 PM »
I like educated wilder9/paladin2/slayer9

skydragonknight

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Re: What is the best psionic gish build?
« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2010, 09:48:07 PM »
Chameleon Crafting is in Dragon 349?
Yep ... it's the bomb ... really bomb bomb.

Make powerstone of spell X with 1 charge = cheap.
Use the un-CPsi-nerfed powerstone trick.
Make DM cry, like weeping.


The only problem is that Erudite is from Complete Psi and the powerstone 'nerf' is also from Complete Psi, so odds are if you're using one you're using the other...so while an Erudite may be able to learn powers from said stones, the traditional powerstone trick is pretty much out for them.
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

Vynar

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Re: What is the best psionic gish build?
« Reply #17 on: December 01, 2010, 10:27:31 PM »
If you are using Psychic Warrior I forget where the 3 Level prc Defender of Sardior is from (probably web update) but it has full BaB and advances Psychic Warrior powers discovered at each level along with having some other abilities. You have to worship Sardior though.

Edit: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20030926a
« Last Edit: December 01, 2010, 10:29:11 PM by Vynar »

awaken DM golem

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Re: What is the best psionic gish build?
« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2010, 04:58:25 PM »
Chameleon Crafting is in Dragon 349?
Yep ... it's the bomb ... really bomb bomb.

Make powerstone of spell X with 1 charge = cheap.
Use the un-CPsi-nerfed powerstone trick.
Make DM cry, like weeping.


The only problem is that Erudite is from Complete Psi and the powerstone 'nerf' is also from Complete Psi, so odds are if you're using one you're using the other...so while an Erudite may be able to learn powers from said stones, the traditional powerstone trick is pretty much out for them.

Well yeah, I was being silly. That's the best possible, minus that annoying rules text.


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« Last Edit: December 04, 2010, 04:58:14 PM by awaken DM golem »