The New, Virtually No-Nonsense Guide To Psions

[Sobolev]

wizard3/ardent1 (+ practiced manifester)/cerebremancer10/X6

I see and I raise you Ardent 10/Ur Priest 2/Psychic Theurge 8 Dominant Ideal

I'm listening, do tell.

What do you want me to expound on?  You trade 2 powers known and NO loss of manifesting (due to how the Ardent power mechanic works with practiced manifester) to pick up full divine casting and rebuke undead with both manifesting and casting working off the same stat.  Dominant Ideal already breaks the action economy.  Now you have an extra set of abilities to fully abuse it.  Possible DMM, but very feat heavy if you do that.

I'm just not too familiar with Ardents.  What Mantles do you suggest, and what one should be dominant?  Also, I'm somewhat depressed that you need all of those Ardent levels before you can get the Ur-Priest levels.  I think I'm also missing how Practiced Manifester interacts with Ardents but doesn't interact in the same way with other Psionic classes.  Otherwise, looks cool.

[PhaedrusXY]

wizard3/ardent1 (+ practiced manifester)/cerebremancer10/X6

I see and I raise you Ardent 10/Ur Priest 2/Psychic Theurge 8 Dominant Ideal

I'm listening, do tell.

What do you want me to expound on?  You trade 2 powers known and NO loss of manifesting (due to how the Ardent power mechanic works with practiced manifester) to pick up full divine casting and rebuke undead with both manifesting and casting working off the same stat.  Dominant Ideal already breaks the action economy.  Now you have an extra set of abilities to fully abuse it.  Possible DMM, but very feat heavy if you do that.

I'm just not too familiar with Ardents.  What Mantles do you suggest, and what one should be dominant?  Also, I'm somewhat depressed that you need all of those Ardent levels before you can get the Ur-Priest levels.  I think I'm also missing how Practiced Manifester interacts with Ardents but doesn't interact in the same way with other Psionic classes.  Otherwise, looks cool.

Isn't there an Ardent Handbook? 

[Sobolev]

wizard3/ardent1 (+ practiced manifester)/cerebremancer10/X6

I see and I raise you Ardent 10/Ur Priest 2/Psychic Theurge 8 Dominant Ideal

I'm listening, do tell.

What do you want me to expound on?  You trade 2 powers known and NO loss of manifesting (due to how the Ardent power mechanic works with practiced manifester) to pick up full divine casting and rebuke undead with both manifesting and casting working off the same stat.  Dominant Ideal already breaks the action economy.  Now you have an extra set of abilities to fully abuse it.  Possible DMM, but very feat heavy if you do that.

I'm just not too familiar with Ardents.  What Mantles do you suggest, and what one should be dominant?  Also, I'm somewhat depressed that you need all of those Ardent levels before you can get the Ur-Priest levels.  I think I'm also missing how Practiced Manifester interacts with Ardents but doesn't interact in the same way with other Psionic classes.  Otherwise, looks cool.

Isn't there an Ardent Handbook?  

...On topic! I would like to see some sample builds.  

Edit: Rebel, hypothetically, which one would be dominant?

[Rebel7284]

check my edit

[Saeomon]

Don't worry: I'm still working away at this guide. Been focusing on pure formatting. Just like with the general powers, I'm trying to get all of the feats into one single post. Trying to eliminate 20,000 or more characters to get the total below the single-post cap is tough! Once I finish that I'll work on incorporating more of the comments and suggestions.

[carnivore]

Cerebremancer
The Psionic equivalent of the Mystic Theurge. Due to the multiclassing requirement, you'll feel behind your single-classed counterparts for much of the game. Exception: this PrC is a green choice in campaigns that begin at high levels, so long as you focus on one side of the progression to secure 9th level spells or powers.

i still say that this is Incorrect .... even for a Low level Game .... exa:


Beguiler 1/ Psion 3/ Cerebremancer 2 .. VS .. Psion 6 ....(assuming 16 Int)

Cerebremancer gets much better Skills, Saves, and has 3rd lvl Powers .... but also gets Trapfinding and 2nd lvl Spells
the Psion only gets a single Bonus Feat and 12 more PP and 2 Powers Known .... the Cerebremancer easily is better

the same for Warmage 1/ Psion 3/ Cerebremancer 2, add in the fact that they can take Arcane Disciple(gain Divine Spells) and Reserve Feats(dont use any resources) ... they are clearly ahead

using Reserve Feats and Arcane Disciple, even Wiz/Psion or Sorc/Psion entry methods are viable ..... in addition you can have Both a Psicrystal AND a Familiar

 

[carnivore]

simple example Build .... SRD/CORE only

10th lvl Build
Classic Telepath

Human Psion(Telepath) 10http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040815a

[Saeomon]

Okay, I think I covered everybody's suggestions except carnivore's. I'll have to set aside an hour or two specifically to incorporate all of those! *lol*

[carnivore]

sorry about the Spoiler blocks .... but i felt that it would be best to get the actual wording ... since many dont have those books

also the Posts are looking great

will post some more Sample Builds later

 

[Benly]

However, this is only true if you can swing early entry - it's probably obvious, but if you can't swing early entry theurgy is pretty questionable.

Yeah, I know we like to say "Oh but it's so obviously supported by (xyz) wording" but frankly GMs do exist - non-insane, non-evil GMs even - who won't let you short-circuit entry reqs by several levels.

[jameswilliamogle]

Great guide; I don't agree with all the power ratings, but its still pretty close.  Cool!

[carnivore]

i think some mention needs to be made for LA Buy-off .... if allowed, it changes the ratings on a lot of the various Races and Templates.

with LA Buy-off, every LA +3 or below race is very playable, some even become Blue or Purple choices instead of Red or Orange


 

[Saeomon]

Great guide; I don't agree with all the power ratings, but its still pretty close.  Cool!

Glad you like it! If any glaring errors in the ratings jump out at you, let me know what you think the rating should be and why. I take into consideration all feedback I receive.

[Saeomon]

i think some mention needs to be made for LA Buy-off .... if allowed, it changes the ratings on a lot of the various Races and Templates.

with LA Buy-off, every LA +3 or below race is very playable, some even become Blue or Purple choices instead of Red or Orange


 

I added some commentary on LA Buy-Off the other day. It's in the Races and Templates for Psions section under Author's Note(s). :-) I'm trying to incorporate pertinent info in the Author's Note(s) subsections so as not to have even more Spoiler tags than I already do. Perhaps I should title those subsections differently...I'll have to think about what to name 'em.

[carnivore]

Monk (PHB, SRD)
Many people like the concept of a psionic Monk. There are at LEAST two PrCs that let you do that by just starting and sticking with Monk. Opt for one of those, instead.

this is incorrect ....why? .... the answer:

Ascetic PsionTashalatoraCarmondine Monk[spoiler]Carmendine Monk
Type: General
Source: Champions of Valor
Prerequisite: Int 13, member of Zealots of the Written Word monk order.
Benefit: You can use your Intelligence bonus instead of your Wisdom bonus for determining your monk AC bonus and for determining the save DC against your stunning fist and quivering palm attacks.
You can study your thesis notes for 1 hour to treat your monk level as two higher for determining one of the following monk abilities: unarmed damage, AC bonus, or unarmored speed bonus. This benefit lasts for 24 hours, at which point you can study your notes again to gain the same or a different effect. You can't study your notes more than once in any 24-hour period.
[/spoiler]

it makes a Monk 1/ Psion 19 a character that can easily kick the crap out of a Psion 20

 

[carnivore]

here is another Race to consider .... from p13 Planar Handbook

NERAPHType: OutsiderLevel Adjustment: +0.


 

[awaken DM golem]

it makes a Monk 1/ Psion 19 a character that can easily kick the crap out of a Psion 20

Ha --- look wut happen ther

[carnivore]

heres another Fun Build(using LA Buy-off):

False Ghost

Unbodied(4 HD+3LA)/ Slayer 10/ Anarchic Initiate 3

Feats:
Track(Undodied bonus)
Mind Sight(Unbodied bonus)
1st lvl: Ghostly Grasp
3rd lvl: Overchannel
6th lvl: Point Blank Shot
9th lvl: Psionic Shot
12th lvl: Greater Psionic Shot

BAB +16
16th lvl Manifester(19th with Overchannel) 8th lvl powers... or Substitute Practiced Manifester for Greater Psionic Shot, then get 20th lvl ML(23rd with Overchannel)
lots of Options ..... great for Impersonating others and Scouting .... lots of Fun, and Easy to Play(very Survivable)..... works even better with Ardent(but we wont go there for this Thread)


 

[carnivore]

i also would disagree with this:

Rogue (PHB, SRD)
If you want to multi with a sneaky class, go with Psionic Rogue, instead.

especially if the Simple Rogue variant(gain fighter Feats(as Fighter), lose Sneak Attack)

Rogue 2/ Psion 4/ Anarchic Initiate 4/ Slayer 10 ... is an Awesome Psi-Gish, BAB +16, 17th lvl ML(20 with Practiced Manifester),9th lvl Powers ... also Great Class Skills and Evasion

i would put a Rogue Dip(1 or 2 lvls) as a Green or Blue(Gish or Skill monkey build) ..... Rogue 1/ Psion 20 is far better than Psychic Rogue could ever hope to be
 

[carnivore]

here is another case where i disagree:

Psychic Reformation

since you probably will only use it a few times in your entire career ...... just get a Dorje of it and you are done .... you dont need it as a Known power ..... in addition, many DMs heavily nerf the use of this power to avoid complications(especially after they see it used a few times).... besides, if "Retraining" is allowed, you done even need it