Author Topic: Getting Double Nines with Fochlucan Lyrist  (Read 8048 times)

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kalaskaagathas

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Getting Double Nines with Fochlucan Lyrist
« on: November 27, 2010, 06:27:32 PM »
Is this possible?  The problem I see would be getting early entry into either Fochlucan Lyrist or Sublime Chord.  I would also have to presume gaining Evasion either from a ring or the shadow creature template.  Would this be worthwhile?  Would it be worthwhile if it were house ruled to advance your Druid abilities in addition to your Bard abilities?
« Last Edit: November 27, 2010, 06:29:21 PM by kalaskaagathas »

Endarire

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Re: Getting Double Nines with Fochlucan Lyrist
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2010, 07:18:26 PM »
One problem with Lyrist is its late blossoming.  The soonest you should expect to take the class is L11.

You -can- get double 9s with FL, but by that time you're probably better off with higher level spells in one class.

Sample Build: NE Human Bard1/Wizard4/Mindbender1/Ur-Priest2/Divine Oracle2/Sublime Chord1/Fochluran LyristX.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2010, 07:23:25 PM by Endarire »
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Tshern

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Re: Getting Double Nines with Fochlucan Lyrist
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2010, 07:21:29 PM »
Get in with Ur-Priest and Sublime Chord?

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kalaskaagathas

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Re: Getting Double Nines with Fochlucan Lyrist
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2010, 07:22:38 PM »
Yeah, that does seem to be an issue.  What level would be the 'sweet spot' for it to start at, if you were to house rule it to make it accessible earlier?

I've been working with my DM, and he's willing to let it advance Druid class features (Animal Companion, Wildshape, etc.) so I'd rather get 9th level Druid Casting than 9th level Ur-Priest Casting.

Bauglir

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Re: Getting Double Nines with Fochlucan Lyrist
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2010, 07:56:05 PM »
You can grab Evasion with 1 level of Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries, although I forget all the precise prereqs for Fochlucan Lyrist so I don't know if this is actually viable. The oracle thing probably works better, though, if you can get it to count as Evasion.
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Gilfanon

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Re: Getting Double Nines with Fochlucan Lyrist
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2010, 10:38:44 PM »
You can do it without Ur-Priest. Terribly weak at low levels, but something like Bard 1/Spellthief 1/Druid 3/Green Whisperer 5/Sublime Chord 1/Fochlucan Lyrist 9. With master spellthief, gets you 6th level bard casting, 10th level SL chord casting with an arcane caster level of 32, and 17th level Druid casting. Needs human with able learner, sanctum spell, shape soulmeld: impulse boots, and open least chakra to work. You can also grab the sun domain ACF if you want DMM.

Kell has an awesome FL build floating around here somewhere. Also, does anyone know if there is a feat that lets you use your arcane CL in place of your divine CL? I seem to remember some theurgy feat from dragon mag that did something to that effect, but can't for the life of me find it.

AndyJames

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Re: Getting Double Nines with Fochlucan Lyrist
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2010, 10:51:58 PM »
Paragnostic Apostle's first level ability is an equivalent of Bardic Knowledge.

Something like Druid 3/Wizard 2/PA 1 is a viable entry point once the skill points are complete.

skydragonknight

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Re: Getting Double Nines with Fochlucan Lyrist
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2010, 11:08:46 PM »
Illumians have a PrC that gives Bardic Knowledge at 1st and Evasion at 2nd levels, IIRC. PrC aside, the Krau sigil is really nice thing to have for dual caster or master spellthief/sublime chords.
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Epimetheus

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Re: Getting Double Nines with Fochlucan Lyrist
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2010, 11:24:23 PM »
A wizard variant (Filidh) also has Bardic Knowledge, but it does give up a ton of class features, so it may not be worth it at all.

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Re: Getting Double Nines with Fochlucan Lyrist
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2010, 11:28:42 PM »
Can we get an issue number for Green Whisperer?  All I know is that it's from Dragon and that I've seen it before.

Gilfanon

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Re: Getting Double Nines with Fochlucan Lyrist
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2010, 12:42:38 AM »
Can we get an issue number for Green Whisperer?  All I know is that it's from Dragon and that I've seen it before.

Dragon 311, pp. 69-70.

LunaticsLament

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Re: Getting Double Nines with Fochlucan Lyrist
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2010, 02:13:24 AM »
The Shadow template provides Evasion.  If you can pay off the LA then it's definitely worth it.

Also, trick a druid to teach you the language.
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CantripN

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Re: Getting Double Nines with Fochlucan Lyrist
« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2010, 03:18:17 AM »
Also, trick a druid to teach you the language.

Dominate him. More fun that way. Or just ask a Blighter, he'd be glad to teach you, if you can convince him not to burn you (probably because you're a lot more powerful).
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gorfnad

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Re: Getting Double Nines with Fochlucan Lyrist
« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2010, 05:28:47 AM »
If you're just looking to get double nines with Bard / Druid, you could just go Bard 2/ Druid 3/ Green Whisperer 2/ Arcane Hierophant 3/ Sublime Chord 1/Arcane Hierophant 7/Green Whisperer 2 and avoid a good deal of prereqs and loopholes.

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Re: Getting Double Nines with Fochlucan Lyrist
« Reply #14 on: November 28, 2010, 05:34:36 AM »
If you're just looking to get double nines with Bard / Druid, you could just go Bard 2/ Druid 3/ Green Whisperer 2/ Arcane Hierophant 3/ Sublime Chord 1/Arcane Hierophant 7/Green Whisperer 2 and avoid a good deal of prereqs and loopholes.

Will have to front-load those Green Whisperer levels, because they explicitly add to Bard and Druid spellcasting only.  Arcane Hierophant is the only one that can add Druid/Sublime Chord.

AndyJames

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Re: Getting Double Nines with Fochlucan Lyrist
« Reply #15 on: November 28, 2010, 05:36:24 AM »
If you're just looking to get double nines with Bard / Druid, you could just go Bard 2/ Druid 3/ Green Whisperer 2/ Arcane Hierophant 3/ Sublime Chord 1/Arcane Hierophant 7/Green Whisperer 2 and avoid a good deal of prereqs and loopholes.

Will have to front-load those Green Whisperer levels, because they explicitly add to Bard and Druid spellcasting only.  Arcane Hierophant is the only one that can add Druid/Sublime Chord.
Don't forget the ubiquitous Mystic Theurge :)

DavidWL

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Re: Getting Double Nines with Fochlucan Lyrist
« Reply #16 on: November 28, 2010, 08:03:35 AM »
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872158/Tools_for_Fochlucan_Lyrist_Builds

All you need and more.

My favorite build (post 106 in that thread):

(Any human-like race with a first level bonus feat)
Incarnate2/Bard3/Soulcaster4/UrPriest1/SublimeChord1/FochluhanLyrist9

First level Iron Will and Incarnum Spellshaping, third level Malign Spell Focus, sixth level Open Least Chakra (feet), ninth, twelth, and fifteenth level practiced spellcaster, eighteenth level feat open. Bind the Cerulean Boots and Soulspeaker Circlet for evasion and speaking druidic.

Soulmeld caster level: 6
Bard/Sublime Chord caster level: 20
Ur-Priest caster level: 20

Full bard progression of spells, 3-9th level Sorc/Wizard spells, full cleric progression of spells, a few souldmelds and one feat to play around with. The race can be any race with a first level bonus feat seeing as no matter what you wont suffer any XP penalties for multiclassing. So the Incarnum version of human will work quite well too if you'd prefer to use it.

Best,
David
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Non-PC activities like out of combat healing should be left to wands and NPCs. It's not fun to play a walking wand of CLW. Likewise, being a combat wall is not a viable PC role. A Wall of Force could do that.

-Sort of, but you left out the important note that a Wall of Force does it better.

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DavidWL

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Re: Getting Double Nines with Fochlucan Lyrist
« Reply #17 on: November 28, 2010, 08:04:12 AM »
(Note:  Obviously not as powerful as an Arcane Heirophant)
Some Cool Quotes:  [spoiler]
Quote from: unknown
Non-PC activities like out of combat healing should be left to wands and NPCs. It's not fun to play a walking wand of CLW. Likewise, being a combat wall is not a viable PC role. A Wall of Force could do that.

-Sort of, but you left out the important note that a Wall of Force does it better.

Quote from: Runestar / skydragonknight
The most powerful character is the one that you actually get to play.

Quote from: Operation Shoestring
I often have to remind people not to underrate divination.  The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
[/spoiler]
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gorfnad

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Re: Getting Double Nines with Fochlucan Lyrist
« Reply #18 on: November 28, 2010, 08:30:12 PM »
If you're just looking to get double nines with Bard / Druid, you could just go Bard 2/ Druid 3/ Green Whisperer 2/ Arcane Hierophant 3/ Sublime Chord 1/Arcane Hierophant 7/Green Whisperer 2 and avoid a good deal of prereqs and loopholes.

Will have to front-load those Green Whisperer levels, because they explicitly add to Bard and Druid spellcasting only.  Arcane Hierophant is the only one that can add Druid/Sublime Chord.
Ah, oh well. Bard 2/ Druid 3/ Green Whisperer 4/ Arcane Hierophant 1/ Sublime Chord 1/Arcane Hierophant 9 would still be pretty decent but would kick it a little later.

Ikeren

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Re: Getting Double Nines with Fochlucan Lyrist
« Reply #19 on: November 28, 2010, 09:48:30 PM »
I like Tome of Battle mixes or Gish Mixes, since I've played a couple and found them to give more substantial low level playing power. These builds get progressively shadier --- eventually ending in retraining a first level feat to precocious apprentice if you're DM lets you get away with that.

Flaw feat: Militia (FRCS) - All martial Weapons (Abjurant Champion, Spellsword)
Flaw feat: Combat Casting (Abjurant Champion)
Level 1 Feat: Spell Focus: Evil (ur-Priest)
Level 3 Feat: Iron will (Ur-Priest)
Level 6 Feat: Shape Soulmeld - Ring of Evasion or LA buyoff frees up these feats
Level 9 Feat: Open Least Chakra.

Savage Bard 1, Wizard 3, X1, Ur Priest 1, Spellsword 1, Abjurant Champion 3, Sublime Chord 1, Fochlucan Lyracist 9.

Bard 1, Battle Sorcerer 3, Cleric 1 (Fort/Will), Urpriest 1 (Fort/Will), Spellsword 1 (Fort/Will), Abjurant Champion 3, Sublime Chord 1, Fochlucan 9
This uses the kobold trick for the extra sorcerer caster level to qualify for Spellsword, but requires more feat strangeness; you're going to need to use item locations for Iron will.

Bard 1, Wizard 3, Cleric 1, Ur Priest 1, Crusader 1, Jade Phoenix Mage 3, Sublime Chord 1, Fochlucan Lyracist 9.

Bard 1, Battle Sorcerer 3, Cleric 1, Ur Priest 1, Crusader 1, Jade Phoenix Mage 3, Sublime Chord 1, Fochlucan Lyracist 9.
Uses Kobold trick or White Dragonspawn with LA buyoff to Qualify for Jade Pheonix Mage. -- again, feat issues.

Crusader 1, Bard 1, Battle Sorcerer 3, Ur Priest 1, Jade Pheonix Mage 4, Sublime Chord 1, Fochlucan Lyracist 9.
Ur-Priest Qualification with no cleric dip.

To increase the crazy a little more: You use Precocious apprentice to qualify for Jade Pheonix Mage, then retrain a battle sorc level to a JPM level. The reason to do this is to pick up Thicket of Blades at JPM5.
Bard 1, Battle Sorcerer 1 (2), Cleric 1, Ur Priest 1, Crusader 1, Jade Pheonix Mage 5, Sublime Chord 1, Fochlucan Lyracist 9.

Using Precocious apprentice cheese, plus illumian heighten cheese to qualify for Sublime Chord, maximizing number and variety of manouvers:
Rogue 1/Bard 1/Battlesorc1/Cleric 1/Monk 1/Urpriest 1/Swordsage 2/Warblade 1/Crusader 1/Sublime Chord 1/Fochlucan Lyracist 9

You can fit in duskblade:
Savage Bard 1, Duskblade 4, Ur Priest 1, Spellsword 1, Abjurant Champion 4, Fochlucan Lyracist 9.
For: 19 BAB, 18 Duskblade casting, 10th UrPriest casting.
Or:

Savage Bard 1, Duskblade 4 Ur Priest 1, Spellsword 1, Abjurant Champion 4, Sublime Chord 1 Fochlucan Lyracist 8.
Less smooth, getting 9th SC and UP casting, 18 BAB.

Squeeze in your favourite Wizard prestige class, probably Incantatrix:
Savage Bard 1/Wizard 3/Urpriest 1/X2/Incantatrix 4/Sublime Chord 1/Fochlucan Lyracist 9
X1 has to progress wizard casting. Mindbenders perfect, as per usual. Heck, go divine orcale, free up a feat.

Beguiler ToB variant: Beguiler4/Savage Bard 1/Urpriest 1/Martial Class 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 3/Sublime Chord 1/Fochlucan Lyracist 9.
---17 BAB, 16.75 if you choose swordsage (hint, don't).
You get melee, Tome of Battle Goodies, 9th level Arcane and Divine Casting, 10th level Bardic Music, Trapfinding, Evasion, insane skills. All you need is a way to break the action economy.

Another option: Beguiler 3, and go Beguiler 3/Savage Bard 1/Martial Class 1/Urpriest 1/Mindbender 1/JPM3 --- trade Beguiler 4 for the hilarity of mindbender.

Casting options:
Warmage, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Sorcerer, Wizard, Battle Sorcerer; pick what you want. Or do bard like you're supposed to.






Every build here gets 17 or 18 BAB, base saves of 9+/9+/18+ (medium, medium, extra good, with lots going 12/10/20 or 13/10/22). Every build gets 9th or 10th level sublime chord casting.  Every build has an average hit die of at least a d6. Every build gets 9th or 10th level bardic music. Every build gets Arcane spells from 0-3. Every build gets insane skill points, all of which are tied up under level 11. You can mix trapfinding into every build except the Battlemage/Sorc/Dread Necromancer/Beguiler/Warmage with tome of battle build. (Beguiler will get it). Full cleric casting. Full party worth of power, in a single character.

I love the Fochlucan Lyracist, actually.