Author Topic: A question for you all. Sorta Meta-optimization, in a way...  (Read 2050 times)

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Amechra

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A question for you all. Sorta Meta-optimization, in a way...
« on: November 25, 2010, 12:02:49 AM »
I'm really just testing the waters here...

Imagine a hypothetical system where everyone has 5 HP, and can perform 2 Special Moves, of which you can use 1 before you need to recharge. Everyone can Move 2 spaces in a turn. You can either attack an adjacent enemy for one damage, use a Special Move, or Move in a turn.

You can pick any of the following as your Special Moves at level 1.
-Heal 2 HP of damage (Special Move)
-Deal 2 Damage to 1 adjacent Enemy (Special Move)
-Deal 1 Damage to an adjacent enemy, and then Move 1 space (Special Move)
-Deal 1 Damage to an Enemy up to 2 spaces away (Special Move)
-Deal 1 Damage each to 2 Enemies adjacent to you (Special Move)

You have just leveled up to level 2. You can pick one of the following. If you pick a Special Move, you must replace one of your old Special Moves:
-+2 HP
-1 more Space when you Move.
-Can have up to 3 Special Moves (Do not get an additional Special Move until next level.)
-Can use 1 more Special Move before recharging. Can be the same Special Move multiple times.
-Standard attacks do +1 damage
-Standard attacks can damage enemies up to 1 space away.
-Take 1 less damage from Special Moves.
-Move 1 Space immediately if you are a target of an Attack (Happens on other person's turn. Special Move)
-Deal X damage to an adjacent Enemy, where X is the number of HP you have below the maximum (Special Move)
-Move 1 adjacent Enemy 2 Spaces (Special Move)
-Move 2 Adjacent Enemies 1 Space (Special Move)
-Teleport 5 Spaces (Special Move)
-Deal 1 Damage to 2 Enemies up to 2 Spaces away (Special Move)
-Deal 2 Damage to 1 Enemy 2 spaces away (Special Move)
-Deal 1 Damage to all adjacent Enemies (Special Move)

Now,assuming that the above list is all that you could pick from, and you had 10 levels, where each level-up was handled in the same way as when you leveled up to level 2, what would you pick? And, more importantly, why?
[spoiler]Fighter: "I can kill a guy in one turn."
Cleric: "I can kill a guy in half a turn."
Wizard: "I can kill a guy before my turn."
Bard: "I can get three idiots to kill guys for me."

On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
Sounds fine to me.
probably over on "Off-topic".
might want to put a little disclaimer in the first post.

This is the Min/Max board. We should be able to figure out a way to optimize the POWER OF PRAYER(TM) that doesn't involve "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu".
[/spoiler]

My final project for my film independent study course. It could do with a watching and critiquing

Rymosrac

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Re: A question for you all. Sorta Meta-optimization, in a way...
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2010, 12:10:45 AM »
Restrictions on taking the same ability multiple times?
Shh. My common sense is tingling. . .

skydragonknight

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Re: A question for you all. Sorta Meta-optimization, in a way...
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2010, 12:39:15 AM »
Best choices highlighted. Normal bonuses are good if they almost always applies. Special moves are good if they either puts you ahead in the damage count or takes them more than 1 turn to negate(damage+move, or heal more than their special move).
So a good build would focus on increasing the power and range of your standard attack, plus either teleportation or a good move speed. If you force them to waste turns moving to you you've achieved a turn advantage, and if you're faster, you can run circles around them occasionally attacking... 'kiting' them I think the term was. Also 1 hp boost, so you can survive an additional hit from someone dealing two or three damage per attack.
I'm really just testing the waters here...

Imagine a hypothetical system where everyone has 5 HP, and can perform 2 Special Moves, of which you can use 1 before you need to recharge. Everyone can Move 2 spaces in a turn. You can either attack an adjacent enemy for one damage, use a Special Move, or Move in a turn.

You can pick any of the following as your Special Moves at level 1.
-Heal 2 HP of damage (Special Move)
-Deal 2 Damage to 1 adjacent Enemy (Special Move)
-Deal 1 Damage to an adjacent enemy, and then Move 1 space (Special Move)
-Deal 1 Damage to an Enemy up to 2 spaces away (Special Move)
-Deal 1 Damage each to 2 Enemies adjacent to you (Special Move)

You have just leveled up to level 2. You can pick one of the following. If you pick a Special Move, you must replace one of your old Special Moves:
-+2 HP
-1 more Space when you Move.
-Can have up to 3 Special Moves (Do not get an additional Special Move until next level.)
-Can use 1 more Special Move before recharging. Can be the same Special Move multiple times.
-Standard attacks do +1 damage
-Standard attacks can damage enemies up to 1 space away.
-Take 1 less damage from Special Moves.
-Move 1 Space immediately if you are a target of an Attack (Happens on other person's turn. Special Move)
-Deal X damage to an adjacent Enemy, where X is the number of HP you have below the maximum (Special Move)
-Move 1 adjacent Enemy 2 Spaces (Special Move)
-Move 2 Adjacent Enemies 1 Space (Special Move)
-Teleport 5 Spaces (Special Move)
-Deal 1 Damage to 2 Enemies up to 2 Spaces away (Special Move)
-Deal 2 Damage to 1 Enemy 2 spaces away (Special Move)
-Deal 1 Damage to all adjacent Enemies (Special Move)

Now,assuming that the above list is all that you could pick from, and you had 10 levels, where each level-up was handled in the same way as when you leveled up to level 2, what would you pick? And, more importantly, why?
« Last Edit: November 25, 2010, 12:41:24 AM by skydragonknight »
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

Amechra

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Re: A question for you all. Sorta Meta-optimization, in a way...
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2010, 01:59:34 AM »
You may take an ability as many times as you want.

Really, I'm asking to see how fast you guys dissect this mental exercise. For research purposes.
[spoiler]Fighter: "I can kill a guy in one turn."
Cleric: "I can kill a guy in half a turn."
Wizard: "I can kill a guy before my turn."
Bard: "I can get three idiots to kill guys for me."

On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
Sounds fine to me.
probably over on "Off-topic".
might want to put a little disclaimer in the first post.

This is the Min/Max board. We should be able to figure out a way to optimize the POWER OF PRAYER(TM) that doesn't involve "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu".
[/spoiler]

My final project for my film independent study course. It could do with a watching and critiquing

skydragonknight

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Re: A question for you all. Sorta Meta-optimization, in a way...
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2010, 02:46:54 AM »
(Any level 1 ability...might as well be heal)
+3 move (5 total)
Damage standard up to 4 extra spaces away (5 total, since adjacent is default)
+2 damage from standard (4 total)

Since there is no ability to move prior to an attack in a turn, anyone without a normal move speed less than 5 will need two moves to close in on this guy, who will poke them to death between moves before moving away.
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

Epimetheus

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Re: A question for you all. Sorta Meta-optimization, in a way...
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2010, 02:55:53 AM »
For the person above me, I'm not sure this stacks... But if it does, I'd mostly agree with your build.

-Standard attacks can damage enemies up to 1 space away.

Does this mean +1 space away? If so, dump the special abilities, because standard attacks become far superior.

---

Does recharging force you to skip a turn? What's the typical number of enemies?  Is the goal to kill as many as you can, or to survive for as long as possible?

Depending on the recharge mechanism, and number of opponents, these two selections might make your character invincible:
-Move 1 Space immediately if you are a target of an Attack (Happens on other person's turn. Special Move)
-Can use 1 more Special Move before recharging. Can be the same Special Move multiple times.

If the recharge mechanism is especially punishing, it might be better to focus on standard attacks.
You will also need +1 more Space when you Move if you want to pursue people... Hm.

Also, since the abilities stack now, -1 damage against a Special move is very useful... As special moves do at most 2 damage (excluding X damage. But you have to be adjacent, so...)

---

Defensive build
Special Moves:
Heal 2 HP of damage
Move 1 space immediately if you are target of an attack [chosen at 2]

Special abilities:
Take 1 less damage from special moves (take twice. 3-4)
Can use 1 more special move before recharging. (take once. 5)
-Standard attacks do +1 damage (take 4 times. 6-9)
-Standard attacks can damage enemies up to 1 space away. (10)

You can OHKO anyone (5 damage) who gets too close to you. (if they haven't taken +2 HP or the move 1 space immediately thing)
Nobody can hurt you with special abilities, and anyone with 'X damage if you are adjacent' can be simply avoided by not being adjacent.
Anyone who does try to hurt you with a standard attack will fail because you have the move 1 space immediately thing. And you won't need to recharge right away.
And if nobody goes after you, you can always heal up (+2 HP).

---

Need more info, please? What is the goal of the build? Does a player who used the move 1 space immediately special move get a turn in the next round?

Mixster

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Re: A question for you all. Sorta Meta-optimization, in a way...
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2010, 09:55:50 AM »
Speed, range and damage seem like the most important concepts of such a system, combine how you will.
I'd probably Do something like:
Heal
Speed 3
Range 3
Damage 2
HP

Also depends on starting range though, if you start slab jab next to your opponent, grabbing range 1 and 8 damage would instagib almost anyone.
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

JaronK

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KellKheraptis

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Re: A question for you all. Sorta Meta-optimization, in a way...
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2010, 10:02:09 AM »
Not to kabitz, but this sounds strangely similar to Deadlands...at least the mechanic does.
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Amechra

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Re: A question for you all. Sorta Meta-optimization, in a way...
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2010, 10:55:52 PM »
Huh, I've never played Deadlands.

No, it doesn't mean +1 space. It means up to 1 space. It's a one time ability.

Recharge does force you to skip a turn. I should have specified that.

The goal is to create a character that survives well and kills well. It's kind of interesting to see that the three people who posted "builds" came up with what looks like different ways to the same goal.

[spoiler]Fighter: "I can kill a guy in one turn."
Cleric: "I can kill a guy in half a turn."
Wizard: "I can kill a guy before my turn."
Bard: "I can get three idiots to kill guys for me."

On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
Sounds fine to me.
probably over on "Off-topic".
might want to put a little disclaimer in the first post.

This is the Min/Max board. We should be able to figure out a way to optimize the POWER OF PRAYER(TM) that doesn't involve "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu".
[/spoiler]

My final project for my film independent study course. It could do with a watching and critiquing

JaronK

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Re: A question for you all. Sorta Meta-optimization, in a way...
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2010, 12:01:48 AM »
I'm really just testing the waters here...

Imagine a hypothetical system where everyone has 5 HP, and can perform 2 Special Moves, of which you can use 1 before you need to recharge. Everyone can Move 2 spaces in a turn. You can either attack an adjacent enemy for one damage, use a Special Move, or Move in a turn.

You can pick any of the following as your Special Moves at level 1.
-Heal 2 HP of damage (Special Move)
-Deal 2 Damage to 1 adjacent Enemy (Special Move)
-Deal 1 Damage to an adjacent enemy, and then Move 1 space (Special Move)
-Deal 1 Damage to an Enemy up to 2 spaces away (Special Move)
-Deal 1 Damage each to 2 Enemies adjacent to you (Special Move)

Level 1: take the bolded options.  If anyone gets adjacent to you, hit them and retreat.  Attack with the ranged special move when you have the opportunity.  You're basically invincible to anyone with any other option... just never end your turn adjacent to any enemies.

Quote
You have just leveled up to level 2. You can pick one of the following. If you pick a Special Move, you must replace one of your old Special Moves:
-+2 HP
-1 more Space when you Move.

Take that second option.  Move around a lot.  Always make sure you move faster than any of your enemies.  And then when you don't have to increase move speed, take that option to deal 2 damage at range, since otherwise enemies will start being immune to your special attack due to the damage soaking one.

EDIT: Oh, recharge makes you skip a turn?  I thought it just meant no special moves that turn.  That changes everything.  A lot.  I'd have to reevaluate.

JaronK