Author Topic: Math for shield users, compared to TWF and THF  (Read 16160 times)

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Kaville

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Math for shield users, compared to TWF and THF
« on: November 21, 2010, 05:45:32 PM »
Some members of my group are wondering about the math showing that shields are garbage. Can I get some examples of low end optimizing comparisons and math of shields, TWF, and 2Handers?

Solo

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Re: Math for shield users, compared to TWF and THF
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2010, 05:51:05 PM »
Shields are fine as long as you animate them.

Have you considered asking them to build a level 10 fighter and compare his stats when THF, TWF, and using Sword and Board?
« Last Edit: November 21, 2010, 05:53:39 PM by Solo »

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Kaville

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Re: Math for shield users, compared to TWF and THF
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2010, 06:00:12 PM »
I am tempted to build some myself, and the primary GM has swung the nerf bat at animated shields, because he doesn't like fighters to have nice things.

carnivore

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Re: Math for shield users, compared to TWF and THF
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2010, 06:04:43 PM »
Fighters can still use Shields and TWF or 2 Handed .... depending on the build

 :D

carnivore

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Re: Math for shield users, compared to TWF and THF
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2010, 06:17:28 PM »
heres a fun Quick Build to use for Numbers running:

Sword and Board:

Human
Fighter 4/ Crusader 2

Flaws:
Vulnerable
Murkey Eyed

Feats:
Jotunbrud (Human bonus)
Exotic Weapon(Spinning Sword)(Flaw bonus)
Shield Specialization(Flaw Bonus)
PA(Fighter Bonus)
Improved Shield Bash(Fighter Bonus)
Combat Expertise(Fighter Bonus)
1st lvl: Agile Shield Fighter
3rd lvl: Improved Trip
6th lvl: Leap Attack

Stance:
Thicket of Blades


for a Build that does not use Flaws. ...... just go with Fighter 6, and lose Leap Attack, eveything else is the same(except no Thicket of Blades)

 :D
« Last Edit: November 21, 2010, 06:19:21 PM by carnivore »

Solo

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Re: Math for shield users, compared to TWF and THF
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2010, 06:20:14 PM »
I don't think the use of Crusader is a good idea, since the DM likely considers ToB broken.

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carnivore

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Re: Math for shield users, compared to TWF and THF
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2010, 06:30:22 PM »
then just use the Fighter 6 build instead

 :D

wotmaniac

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Re: Math for shield users, compared to TWF and THF
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2010, 06:59:39 PM »
properly done, sword&board = TWF+options :) 
just crack open PHB2 to start ..... add other stuff as necessary.

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bearsarebrown

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Re: Math for shield users, compared to TWF and THF
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2010, 08:44:21 PM »
Sword/Board can be TWF but even more feat intensive. TWF sucks compared to THF.

If you know the math on TWF/THF you should be able to understand S&B without seeing math.

skydragonknight

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Re: Math for shield users, compared to TWF and THF
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2010, 09:31:32 PM »
I'm actually playing a Paladin S&B (almost level 2). Here's my planned feat progression:

Power Attack (1st)
Sapphire Smite (Azurin)
Law Devotion (3rd)
Divine Shield (Holy Warrior)
(Charging Smite)
Awesome Smite (6th)

Longsword and Heavy Shield. The idea is a Meatshield who change to/from Smiteadin Mode at will (changing law devotion bonus is a free action, as is giving up your shield bonus to wield a longsword in two hands).

Loses 2.5 average damage to a greatsword, but if there's ever a need to be a serious turtle...I mean, tank, I can be.
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ninjarabbit

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Re: Math for shield users, compared to TWF and THF
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2010, 10:05:14 PM »
Loses 2.5 average damage to a greatsword, but if there's ever a need to be a serious turtle...I mean, tank, I can be.

You're not just losing the weapon damage, you're losing the power attack damage too.

Another reason S&B amd TWF suck is that you can't use reach weapons (except for that one in DMG II I think). Reach means you threaten a wider area, can make attacks that the other fighting styles normally can't make, and keep yourself more out of harm's way.

juton

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Re: Math for shield users, compared to TWF and THF
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2010, 10:11:05 PM »
I'm actually working on a sword and board handbook right now. Short version, either you animate your shield, use improved buckler defense to THF, or if you are a rogue TWF with a spiked shield in one hand. Their are other options, ToB classes aren't as reliant on power attack so they are less affected by using a shield and crusaders have some shield based maneuvers. Their is a feat tree Shield Charge->Shield Slam->Blood Spiked Charger which can daze and trip an opponent on a charge, but isn't that great over all. I'll be back in a hour with some hard numbers about how much shields suck.

juton

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Re: Math for shield users, compared to TWF and THF
« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2010, 11:43:46 PM »
I'm a little bit surprised by what I found, I'll give the executive summary first then the nitty-gritty details. At least in core, for the first 10 levels PC AC and monster to-hit stays on the same RNG, meaning a PC that has their shield enchanted should receive about 2/3rds the damage of a none shield user. A shield user in turn only does about 70% the damage on a Two-Handed fighter, I was expecting a larger variance. Things begin to diverge as you move away from core, a THF Fighter with leap attack and shock trooper will do 177% the average damage of a S&B Fighter.

On the face of it a S&B Fighter shouldn't be that bad, at least in core, why then do we have the perception they suck? Well nearly every hit point of damage a Fighter does is with his primary weapon, swinging against an AC, but the damage he takes isn't as likely to go through his AC first, so whole classes of enemies can just ignore your shield when inflicting damage, not to mention traps and dungeon hazards. The old saw is that after a certain point AC doesn't matter, because your enemies will find other ways to make your life miserable and since the only thing a shield gives you is AC after a certain point it will cease to matter. Also, their will be times when you need things dead quick, like a Necromancer's skeletal guards, you need them down fast because every turn you delay is another turn the Wizard gets to act.

Anyways on to the numbers:
[spoiler]
I first looked at a core fighter who took power attack and the various weapon focus feats, non-optimal sure but fighters don't have much to do in core. They where swinging at the average AC for their level as given in Optimization by the Numbers.

Standard AttackFull Attack Damage
Level 3 S&B5.5-
Level 3 THF9.5-
Level 6 S&B11.218.9
Level 6 THF16.2526.45
Level 10 S&B14.424.8
Level 10 THF2135

Now core only Fighters focusing solely on damage doesn't happen that often on Min/Max so lets take a look at Fighter with the Power Attack, Leap Attack and Shock Trooper feats.

Standard AttackFull Attack Damage
Level 3 S&B5.5-
Level 3 THF9.5-
Level 6 S&B16.527.5
Level 6 THF29.2548.75
Level 10 S&B25.643.5
Level 10 THF45.676.95

That's a healthy boost to damage, we can see the THF really starting to out pace S&B in damage. Lastly let's take a look at the average damage from some average monsters swinging at our hypothetical Fighter, ignoring shock trooper for now.

Monstervs. ACFull Attack
Ogre197.2
22 (3 from shield)4.8
Babau2114.45
24 (3 from shield)9.35
Fire Giant2441.25
28 (4 from shield)26.25

[/spoiler]


Amechra

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Re: Math for shield users, compared to TWF and THF
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2010, 12:39:53 AM »
Hmmm... so shields effectively give a form of limited, sucky DR? Interesting...
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Sounds fine to me.
probably over on "Off-topic".
might want to put a little disclaimer in the first post.

This is the Min/Max board. We should be able to figure out a way to optimize the POWER OF PRAYER(TM) that doesn't involve "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu".
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carnivore

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Re: Math for shield users, compared to TWF and THF
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2010, 01:48:54 AM »
Another reason S&B amd TWF suck is that you can't use reach weapons (except for that one in DMG II I think). Reach means you threaten a wider area, can make attacks that the other fighting styles normally can't make, and keep yourself more out of harm's way.
actually you can still keep reach .....

Spinning Sword(Secrets of Sarlona) is a one Handed Reach Weapon
Kusari-gama(DMG p144/145) 10gp,1d6 Light weapon, 10' reach and adjacent

another way to do all at the same time: Buckler+ Imp Buckler Defense+ Spiked Chain = 2handed with Reach weapon and Adjacent + Shield

Human
Fighter 6

Feats:
Jotunbrud (Human bonus)
PA(Fighter Bonus)
Improved Buckler Defense(Fighter Bonus)
Combat Expertise(Fighter Bonus)
Weapon Specialization(Spiked Chain)
1st lvl: Exotic Weapon(Spiked Chain)
3rd lvl: Weapon Focus(Spiked Chain)
6th lvl: Improved Trip

get to do it all ..... Reach+PA+Shield+Trip

 :D
« Last Edit: November 22, 2010, 01:52:54 AM by carnivore »

LordBlades

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Re: Math for shield users, compared to TWF and THF
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2010, 04:32:29 AM »
TWF vs. THF, at a very basic level(assuming for simplicity that you get 1 main and 1 off-hand attack for each attack you'd get with a two-hander, and the twf attacks get the standard -2 penalty):

Tyipical medium main hand damage is 1d8(longsword) , typical off-hand damage is 1d6(shortsword), typical two-hand damage is 2d6(greatsword).

with THF you get 1 attack at let's say +10, dealing 2d6+1.5xstr
with TWF you get 2 attacks at +8/+8, dealing 1d8+str and 1d6+0.5xstr

At first sight, it seems that TWF provides more damage (1 extra dmg on average) while THF is more accurate (+2 to hit). However, remeber TWF requires at least 1 feat. If the THF character spends that feat on power attack, he can power attack for 2 points, getting a +4 to damage(that's now 3 damage ahead of TWF).

Also, TWF requires multiple feats to work, and a significantly larger gold investment as you level (need to upgrade 2 magic weapons). On the other hand, THF is cheaper (needs only 1 weapon), less feat intensive and offers better support for power attack (which is the bread&butter of many melee damage builds) and subsequent feats (leap attack, shock trooper, etc.)

Only situation where I'd consider TWF worthwile is when you have access to a source of per-attack bonus damage (most obvious being sneak attack).

AndyJames

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Re: Math for shield users, compared to TWF and THF
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2010, 05:01:53 AM »
TWF can be done with a greatsword and armour spikes. You can even use a buckler on it with Improved Buckler Defence.

Just saying...

skydragonknight

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Re: Math for shield users, compared to TWF and THF
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2010, 05:25:53 AM »
Sword and board has it's place at very low levels when 90+% of monster's attacks target your AC, most monsters can two-shot you and the damage gap between 1-hand and 2-handed weapons is relatively small. Starting at level 4, when monster attacks begin to vary (a little), you can survive at least two hits and the damage gap is grown, you'd better toss the shield away unless you have improved buckler defense (which is sorta 'meh').

Though by 9th you can afford an animated shield, getting the best of both worlds. Although your shield AC will still be less than the Abjurant Champion's, who will also be full power attacking with Wraithstrike. But he only lived to outshine you because you were his meatshield since level 1, so you can rest assured at a job well done, get yourself slain in battle, and roll up a nice Gish. Such is (was) the life of a Fighter.
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carnivore

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Re: Math for shield users, compared to TWF and THF
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2010, 07:06:24 AM »
TWF can be done with a greatsword and armour spikes. You can even use a buckler on it with Improved Buckler Defence.

also this is fun:

2 handed with Greatsword+ PA+ Imp Unarmed+Superior Unarmed Strike+TWF+Imp Buckler Defense =

good Damage+good AC+lots of attacks+ =Win

 :D

SorO_Lost

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Re: Math for shield users, compared to TWF and THF
« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2010, 07:54:38 AM »
Hey its fun an all that you are using things like level 6, Power Attack & THF vs Power Attack and TWF on the same 6th level fighter without any real items. But when you start branching out beyond the same character with the same stats with the same class you start noticing things.

A 10th Rogue with 18 str using Power Attack(5) and using a +2 Longspear.
+1 Longspear +3/-2 melee (1d8+16+5d6 & 2 str dmg), assuming all hit (yeah right) thats 76 damage & 4 str dmg.
OR
A 10th level Rogue with 20 dex, 14 str, Weapon Finesse, ITWF, and using two +1 Daggers
+1 Dagger +10/+10/+5/+5 melee  (1d4+3+5d6 & 2 str dmg), assuming all hit (every one of them has a better chance than THF), thats 92 damage & 8 str dmg.

Now factor Craven, 96 vs 132. Wounding & factoring con loss? 106 vs 152. SA boosting items? Gap keeps widening.


Now what if we skip full attack and focused on charging?
A 10th level Monk, 18 str, Power Attack(7), Leap Attack, Mantis Leap, Shock Trooper, Battle Jump. With a well placed move action.
+1 Valorous Staff +12 melee (3d6+109). Monks are the powerful, far beating the rogue using THF or TWF.

Lesson learned? Yeah I hope so.
Got bonus damage? TWF.
Don't? THF.
What about S&B? Use a buckler, -1 to attacks for all the benefits of using a shield at -1 AC. And later on when miss chances are better than AC, you won't feel bad for using a +3 buckler to hold a greater shield crystal.
What if you really get down to it? You can deal a crap ton of overkill damage using any style. So I suppose the extra AC is useful, but then you pick up more disliked for their unbalanced traits DMs don't like.
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