Author Topic: DMG 2: Unique Abilities: Prodigy...worth +2 LA?  (Read 7006 times)

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reddir

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DMG 2: Unique Abilities: Prodigy...worth +2 LA?
« on: November 16, 2010, 02:22:31 AM »
I was wondering what you thought of this?

Personally, I wonder if the +2 is about right for Str or Dex Prodigies, but perhaps too much for others stats. I'm thinking +1 LA for any other than Str or Dex.

I hoping to get some feedback from those more experienced than I (probably everyone).

Thanks.

Ramaloke

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Re: DMG 2: Unique Abilities: Prodigy...worth +2 LA?
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2010, 02:45:50 AM »
I actually think that Intelligence Prodigies are the strongest ones.
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Phoenix00

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Re: DMG 2: Unique Abilities: Prodigy...worth +2 LA?
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2010, 02:48:44 AM »
I actually think that Intelligence Prodigies are the strongest ones.
Agreed

Factotum 3 is far stronger than Strength or Dexterity Prodigies even though Factotum 3 is 3 Levels instead of 2 LA.

Bauglir

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Re: DMG 2: Unique Abilities: Prodigy...worth +2 LA?
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2010, 02:51:38 AM »
Dex is probably the best (Initiative is a Dexterity check), but I don't see what's great about the rest. Knowledge checks are good with Int, there are probably some PrCs that have skill-based abilities that are nice that can benefit from any of them, unless you're a caster, but I probably wouldn't take it since the ones who benefit the most from Int can't take LA. Str is good for Dungeoncrashers, who benefit from the bonus on Bullrushes, but who could probably find something better to do with 2 levels. It's better if it applies to attack rolls, but I don't think those are checks (maybe, I don't actually know what significance there is to the term, if any).

Oh, Factotums, those're pretty nice with Int. Nevermind.
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Ramaloke

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Re: DMG 2: Unique Abilities: Prodigy...worth +2 LA?
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2010, 02:54:11 AM »
Plus its only +2 LA, if you are starting above 6 you can have it bought off before you start.
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: DMG 2: Unique Abilities: Prodigy...worth +2 LA?
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2010, 03:02:07 AM »
Plus its only +2 LA, if you are starting above 6 you can have it bought off before you start.
Above 9 (buy off one point at 6, and one point at 9)
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Ramaloke

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Re: DMG 2: Unique Abilities: Prodigy...worth +2 LA?
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2010, 03:06:40 AM »
Yeah what he said. :D
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reddir

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Re: DMG 2: Unique Abilities: Prodigy...worth +2 LA?
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2010, 03:29:12 AM »
I see I was underestimating what an Int Prodigy is capable of, thanks for the quick feedback :)

AndyJames

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Re: DMG 2: Unique Abilities: Prodigy...worth +2 LA?
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2010, 04:14:33 AM »
Well, just to be absolutely clear on it, simply because I was a nincompoop and it trapped me:

LA buyback is based on your HD, not your ECL.

So, for a LA+2 template, your ECL is actually 11 when you get the first buyback, not 9.

cru

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Re: DMG 2: Unique Abilities: Prodigy...worth +2 LA?
« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2010, 04:29:07 AM »
Well, just to be really precise, you get your first buyback at 6 class levels for a LA+2 template.
Similarly, a drow cleric who has just reached 6th level (ECL 8) is eligible to reduce her level adjustment from +2 to +1. She must pay 7,000 XP, and her ECL becomes 7 (6 class levels plus her +1 level adjustment). When she gains her 9th class level (ECL 10), she can reduce her level adjustment to +0 (and her ECL to 9) by paying another 9,000 XP.

AndyJames

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Re: DMG 2: Unique Abilities: Prodigy...worth +2 LA?
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2010, 05:43:10 AM »
Yes. What CRU said. I saw the 9 in the previous posts and had a brain fart. A bad one.

RobbyPants

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Re: DMG 2: Unique Abilities: Prodigy...worth +2 LA?
« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2010, 10:04:17 AM »
I was wondering what you thought of this?

Personally, I wonder if the +2 is about right for Str or Dex Prodigies, but perhaps too much for others stats. I'm thinking +1 LA for any other than Str or Dex.

I hoping to get some feedback from those more experienced than I (probably everyone).

Thanks.
The LA for the base ability is over-inflated in most circumstances, and the DMG2 admits this in the intro section.  The idea was they wanted this for DMs to make interesting NPCs and they wanted to punish players for trying to use them.  Of course, as others have mentioned, flat out lowering it can lead to some weird results.
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McPoyo

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Re: DMG 2: Unique Abilities: Prodigy...worth +2 LA?
« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2010, 11:31:25 AM »
Int Prodigies can cause some interesting problems where characters drop a single point into any trained-only int-based skill at lower (and even middle in some cases) levels and immediately outclass people who make that their schtick if you don't watch it.

Also, never allow them in an E6 game. That particular DM won't make that mistake again.
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
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Ramaloke

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Re: DMG 2: Unique Abilities: Prodigy...worth +2 LA?
« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2010, 02:18:49 PM »
Yeah some of it is definitely over inflated which to me doesn't make sense. Its up to the DM to punish players for powergaming not the book itself, all it does is spread a falsely established "feel" to the power something should offer for the LA.

Take a look at the Arcane Adept, +4 LA for 3 Lvl 1 SLAs (or 1 level 2 SLA 2/day or 1 lvl 3 SLA 1/day) and +1 DC to spells IF you take a level in a spellcasting class. Why not just take a levels in sorcerer/wizard and call it done? Obviously this is a bad exchange.

The better question is what is appropriately priced in there.

I like the Divinity one, thats reasonably priced, a Domain Power, +2 to one of the following "Skill checks, attack rolls, initiative checks or saving throws", and +1 to the DC of divine spells you cast, all for +2 LA.

Makes the Arcane Adept look like shit doesn't it?

Abberant Limbs is also a good deal. Extra Arms for +2 LA? Sounds good to me.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2010, 02:21:05 PM by Ramaloke »
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McPoyo

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Re: DMG 2: Unique Abilities: Prodigy...worth +2 LA?
« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2010, 02:26:44 PM »
I ran a game where most of them (except the obviously omg why would you allow that as +1 LA, like the shapeshift one, iirc) as +1 LAs. Party loved it, and really didn't change anything I had to do on my end at all.
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: DMG 2: Unique Abilities: Prodigy...worth +2 LA?
« Reply #15 on: November 16, 2010, 02:33:58 PM »
Stormtouched is particularly bad.  Sure, control weather and call lightning storm 1/week are nice, but not +7 LA nice.

The immunity to electricity is, of course, done better by the mechantrix.


Vestigal twin is LA +5, and might be worthwhile for casters at LA +4.  If buyoff is allowed, of course, LA +5 is a little more reasonable.

Past life: you could be spending 5 points of LA for a +2 to attacks, saving throws, and skill checks, plus a single fighter bonus feat.  For that price, you could just take four levels of monk and one level of fighter, gaining a +4 bonus to attacks, a +4 or 6 to saving throws, actual skill ranks, and a fighter bonus feat
« Last Edit: November 16, 2010, 02:38:10 PM by The_Mad_Linguist »
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Ramaloke

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Re: DMG 2: Unique Abilities: Prodigy...worth +2 LA?
« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2010, 02:39:00 PM »
Unearthly Beauty is +12, which is ridiculous. There are many templates out there that will give you a host of comparable SLAs (instead of the dominate monster 1/week) and stat bumps which are way better than the measly +4 to CHA skills. IMO better to just take Phrenic/Half-Fey and call it done.

There are some I'm not quite sure of:

Prophet gets a constant foresight effect. Never being surprised or flat footed. Not worth +5 LA but it might be useful in certain builds.

Gravetouched gives you immunity to death effect and energy drain, constant detect undead, animate dead and create dead 1/week and the ability to rebuke as an evil cleric = character level, all for +5 LA. That is a harsh blow but it can be tempting as well. Particularly rebuking that scales whether or not you take levels in a rebuking class.

While neither would be great in a nongestalt game, in a gestalt game they actually might be good choices.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2010, 02:45:39 PM by Ramaloke »
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Re: DMG 2: Unique Abilities: Prodigy...worth +2 LA?
« Reply #17 on: November 16, 2010, 03:39:48 PM »
Yeah, I'm of the mind that Gravetouched would be a nice thing to pick up in a Gestalt game simply because it's Necromancy without Necromancers, so you can do something like Ordained Champion (and make pretty nice use of those turn attempts aside from rebuke/command).

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Re: DMG 2: Unique Abilities: Prodigy...worth +2 LA?
« Reply #18 on: November 16, 2010, 04:01:04 PM »
Anyone laugh at the discrepancy between the LA and the CR boost? Some are hilarious.
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

RobbyPants

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Re: DMG 2: Unique Abilities: Prodigy...worth +2 LA?
« Reply #19 on: November 16, 2010, 04:24:04 PM »
Anyone laugh at the discrepancy between the LA and the CR boost? Some are hilarious.
That's how I knew not to take that entire section of the book seriously.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]