Shackled City CO Diary

[juton]

I figured I'd write a CO diary from my holiday campaign. You'll be able to follow along while our group makes one of its brief forrays past level 4. We're playing the Shackled City adventure path, there will be spoilers, bear that in mind. We are using the Pathfinder Beta rules but we substitute any feats for their 3.5 that we feel like.

Our group is a mixed bag of optimizers, some do it well, others don't. I've included a little blurb about the player to help explain how the character is being used.

The Party so far:
Red Mage
[spoiler=My build]
An armour wearing, trapfinding, cure spell casting, arcane caster. Built to do a little bit of everything, uses the spell heroics to try and find a way for Sword and Board to not suck.

Generic Caster  Armoured Mage*, Shield Specialization, Shield Ward
Generic Warrior Trapfinding
Generic Caster  Knowledge Devotion
Generic Caster 
Generic Caster  Practiced Caster
Generic Caster  Uncanny Dodge/Improved Uncanny Dodge
Generic Caster  Craft Weapons and Armour
Unseen Seer   
Unseer Seer   Silent Spell, Quick Recovery
Unseer Seer
Eldritch Knight Arcane Strike, Energy Substitution
Eldritch Knight
Eldritch Knight Born of Three Thunders
Eldritch Knight
Eldritch Knight Combat Expertise, Fast Metamagic
Eldritch Knight
Eldritch Knight Quicken Spell 
Eldritch Knight
Eldritch Knight Power Attack?, Heighten Spell OR Twin Spell
Eldritch Knight

Armoured Mage is a custom feat to give me the same ability to cast in armour and shields as a duskblade. I'm using the Pathfinder Eldritch Knight which gives d10 as well as three fighter feats at 1st,5th and 9th levels. Quick Recovery lets me attempt to recover from daze as a move action, which work well with both Celerity and Born of Three Tunders spells. Fast Metamagic is there so that in a round I recover from daze I can metamagic a spell and so that I can put Bot3t spells in a spell storing weapon.

Why I think this is a good idea:
Usually the players show up with premade characters, I don't know before hand how many are showing up and what they are bringing. Players also don't like to take on jobs that aren't fun, like trapfinding and healing.
[/spoiler]

Bard:
[spoiler]Not really a Bard, a Glamour Mage from the 3rd party book, Swashbuckling Arcana. Gets a number of wonky powers, including:At will temp hitpoints, 1d10+CL, unlimited times per day. He gives +4-6 on all allied rolls, not just d20s, lasts all day, Bard doesn't get the bonus himself though. Bard can give himself an extra d6 to any one type of roll, choosen at the start of the day.
His build:
High strength and con, uses a greatsword with power attack for damage, due to good rolls, the high con, and the equivalent of the improved toughnes feat Bard averages about 11 hitpoints a level. Despite the 3/4 BAB is the Party tank during the lower levels (1-6).
The Player:
Bard's player is also the DM, he's the most experienced with D&D, he optimizes well and plays his characters cannily.[/spoiler]

Monk Dead, 
[spoiler]His build:
Planning to be a Sacred Fist (with full caster progression), Which is a good PrC. Unfortunately he plans to get there by going Monk 6/Cleric 4/Sacred Fist 10.
The Player:
He takes the power attack, leap attack and flying kick feats, but this campaign limits his charging. This character is aggressive to the point of recklessness and as of session 6 the character had died 3 times, and is unable to be rez'ed back. Not good tactically or as an optimizer.[/spoiler]

Druid  Dead,
[spoiler]His Build:
Melee Tank, uses a variant of wildshape that lets him shapechange at lower levels. Also takes levels in Barbarian, heading for warshaper or Bear warrior.
The Player:
This character calls for an aggressive (although not reckless) player. Unfortunately Druid is played rather timidly. Killed in session 3 by a Vampire's energy drain.
[/spoiler]
Archer
[spoiler]His Build: Exactly what the name entails, a fighter dedicated to Archery, he can really clear the room of mooks.
The Player:
Uses his character exactly as he should, he really contributes to combat and he RPs well. Is a fairly decent optimizer, at level 7 was getting somewhere in the neighbourhood of 1d8+10 on three attacks around. He is tough to reach and so has missed some sessions.[/spoiler]

Beguiler
[spoiler]His Build:
Our first pure caster, his colourspray can really knock out the mooks as well. Will eventually go into Shadowcraft mage at level 12 (after he can get his first shadow spell)
The Player:
He's the least experienced, but he uses the Beguiler perfectly, he contributes well to the group except in situations where his magic is ineffective (like versus undead).
[/spoiler]

Sorcerer
[spoiler]His Build:
Basically an evoker, using sudden maximize at opportune times. Currently on average he doesn't throw around as much damage per turn as Archer but his output spikes against tougher bosses.
The Player:
This is Druid's player with a new character, surving as support suits his temperment well. Not the most optimized build, as it focuses on dealing damage and really then only electricity damage. May take Born of the Three Thunders at later levels.
[/spoiler]

We have currently completed 4 adventures in this campaign over six sessions, we are now level 10. I'll try and fill Min/Max in on our changing tactics as they evolve.

[juton]

Session 1: Jazridune

Our party for the first session consists of Red Mage, Bard and Monk. The campaign starts out with the PCs rescuing a cleric from three ruffians, our moderately optimized group destroys the three warrior 1s. We are introduced to a priest of the local church adn from there we do some sluthing, which quickly brings us to our first dungeon.

This dungeons has numerous trapped doors, but you can circumvent most of them if you take some of the recently carved tunnels. The adventure is supposed to be played that most parties stick to the side tunnels until they find the keys to the doors. Since Bard can give himself temp HP he triggers each door then chops it down. This speeds up how we clear the dungeon, most fights are easy because our party members all have either high AC or a lot of HP.

This dungeon has about 50 rooms, despite a few not quite close calls it was a cake walk.

Our characters go up to level 2.
Thoughts on session 1:
Red Mage - Provided some healing and some Melee, at this level the enemies HP where low enough that one hit from a Battle Axe was enough to take them out.
Bard - His trick of triggering the trap doors and knocking them down was really powerful, he absorbed 100+ hitpoint damge in just this session.
Monk - Was really aggressive, usually the first into the room and he had the highest kill count because he was so reckless.

[anomalousman]

I love these, please carry on.

Beguiler
[spoiler]His Build:
Our first pure caster, his colourspray can really knock out the mooks as well. Will eventually go into Shadowcraft mage at level 12 (after he can get his first shadow spell)

I take it he has heighten spell?  Then he has a 4th level shadow spell heightened legion of sentinels from level 8.

[juton]

@anomalousman

Thanks, I was pretty sure we where missing a trick with the Beguiler, we where looking forward to having a Shadowcraft mage in our ranks.

[Agita]

Alternatively, if your Beguiler dips into a PrC at level 6 (Mindbender, for example), he can delay his secong Advanced Learning by a level and nab a 4th-level shadow spell with it.

[BowenSilverclaw]

And why wouldn't he dip Mindbender, Mindsight is awesome

[anomalousman]

Indeed, mindbender is great.  But advanced learning to get spells from the shadow series makes sense unless you're about to be a shadowcraft mage, in which case they're all coming for free anyway.  It doesn't increase the speed of getting a 4th level shadow spell, which you automatically have whenever you can cast a 4th level spell.

Conceivably, if you've got versatile spellcaster as well as heighten spell (and that's a top shelf combo for shadowcraft mage), then you qualify by level 6, where you get 3rd level slots.  So by level 11 you could have finished taking all of shadowcraft mage.

[Agita]

Indeed, mindbender is great.  But advanced learning to get spells from the shadow series makes sense unless you're about to be a shadowcraft mage, in which case they're all coming for free anyway.  It doesn't increase the speed of getting a 4th level shadow spell, which you automatically have whenever you can cast a 4th level spell.

I'm not talking about Shadow Conjuration/Shadow Evocation. You can just grab any spell with the [shadow] descriptor, like Shadow Well (SpC). Last time I checked, SCM didn't give you all [shadow] spells, just Conjuration/Evocation.

[anomalousman]

True.  But there's no need to restrict yourself to shadow spells at all.

[juton]

Session 2: the Malachite Hold, roughly mid December 2008

Session 2 picks up where session 1 leaves off, and our intrepid party investigates the next level of the dungeon. The first thing I notice about this level is that the challenge of has increased, we went from goblins to hobgoblins, things have better AC and more HP. In the first part of this dungeon we rescue Druid, another tank for the party.

Our party travels usually in the order Bard, Monk, Druid, Red Mage, we don't move subtely through the dungeon. Our usual tactic is to literally bash down the door and kill things on the other side, which at level 2 seems to work well. I think a better approach would have been if one or two of the characters had been archers or used polearms, we ran into problems manuevring into position and bringing all our power to bear. Depending on how fickle the DM feels a stealth oriented group could do well, I don't think any of our opponents had high spot/listen checks.

Somewhere a little after the start of the session our party needs to rest, and we go to level 3. In the morning the Bard gives us a 'Green Man Bonus', each character gets a fixed d6 sized bonus to all their roles for the day. The Monk suddenly does +5 extra to hit and damage, Redmage gets +4 and Druid gets +2. If you think this affects how viable a Monk or a Sword and Board fighter you'd be right, the Monk is now hitting consistently on his flurries and dropping  minor enemies with one shot. This saves a lot of the party from obsolecence, it's nice at the table but it doesn't encourage optimization.

Surprisingly our fight with the boss of this level is quite dangerous. This fight consists of a higher level fighter, a mage, a guard dog and 2 hobgoblin guards. Falling back on the Shadowrun mantra of 'geek the mage first!' the Bard and Redmage go after the caster, eliminating him before he can cast a spell. Our group does not use tactics well and the Monk and Druid split off to fight the enemy fighter and Hobgoblins respectively. Our party is able to drop everything but the enemy fighter, who in turn drops most of use to negative HP. Bard uses a suggestion spell and the fighter roles a 2. Our bacon is saved, mostly. Monk is at negative 11 hp, but two players point out a rule change in Pathfinder that a character dies at negative con and Monk stabilizes at negative 13 (he had 14 con).

These break downs in communication is one of the reasons why I tried to make a character like Red Mage. I would like to be able to take the initiative and not rely on some of my fellow players to step up. As I type this I realize that team organization is a big problem.

After the boss fight Redmage uses his magic and potions to heal himself and Bard, and we promptly overextend ourselves. A mimic almost kills the both of us but the DM Deus Ex Machina's and we are saved. Near the end of the session we rescue Archer and Beguiler, the party accidently took the long way to rescuing them, so they didn't really get a chance to contribute.

We go up to level 4, with the newer additions going to a level lower.
Out of Combat
Monk and Redmage chip in to buy the party's first wand of lesser vigor. Monk sagely starts saving for a raise dead in case he needs it. Redmage buys a scroll of fabricate and makes a Mithral Armour and a Shield for himself, an Adamantine Claymore for the Bard, a MWK Rapier for Archer and Beguiler. We also stock up on cure light and cure mod potions.

Thoughts on Session 2:
Red Mage - His skills where a lot more useful in this adventure, but in hindsight I don't think I could call him useful if it wasn't for that +4 bonus on attack and damage given by Bard. Bard, Monk and Druid all don't wear good/any armour so I learn Mage Armour, preventing damage is cheaper than curing it.
Bard - His abilities continue to dominate, especially the 'Green man bonus' he gives. He also learns power attack which ups his damage.
Monk - It's tough to gauge how helpful he'd be without that bonus, he'd probably be not all that hot though.
Druid - His shapechange ability is wierd, his low initiative check prevented him from shining in this session though.
Archer & Beguiler - Only got to kill 2 hobgoblins between them.

I was pretty optimistic after this session, we had two casters, a competent support character, two tanks and a lunatic(Monk).

[anomalousman]

Seems like a kinda odd party.

[Straw_Man]

  It's different all right. Your 'Bard' seems way too powerful for the game, but he's the GM so there  I notice your Red Mage is a bit spread out, any plans on how your going to keep up with more focused builds?

[juton]

  It's different all right. Your 'Bard' seems way too powerful for the game, but he's the GM so there  I notice your Red Mage is a bit spread out, any plans on how your going to keep up with more focused builds?

Around session 4 my spells start to make a bigger difference, I act more like a caster with a shield on my arm than a Sword and Boarder. Around session 5 I begin buffing with Heroism and spaming Heroics to give myself (and others) extra fighter feats. By session 7 I only use my melee weapon on things ~4 levels below me, the Generic Caster gets spells per day almost as good as a Sorcerer so it really helps in the longevity department.

[juton]

Session 3: Goblin Pranksters, roughly mid-december

After a bit of a break the fair town of Cauldron is threatened by Goblin vandals. During the investigation we are jumped by some wererats, this should have tipped us off to buying silver weapons. The party does a bit more sluething and a late night B&E, which brings us to our second dungeon.

We start out by having Bard cast invisibility on himself and scouting a little bit. This dungeon is filled with small rooms filled with about a handful of Goblins each, most have less than the number of player characters. With a bit of stealth we manage a fairly massive slaughter, Monk and Archer start a competition as too who has the most kills. Archer has Rapid Shot, Precise Shot and improved intiative so he rapidly begins gaining on Monk. Since the rooms are so small Redmage uses a bow to help support the tanks.

We set a bad precident in section 1 of this dungeon, we split up to take out goblins faster. NEVER EVER split up the group. We shuffle the party order for section two and Druid is in the lead. The next encounter was interesting because of the large number of Mooks (12+) and that they where spread out into 4 groups, which prevented any one spell from affecting all of them and the snipers where on 30 feet ledges which prevented a counter attack by foot. Druid takes 60+ damage over two turns in the resulting ambush but survives. Archer picks off some snipers, Beguiler throws up an Obscuring Mist to block another group of snipers, Redmage drops their shaman. The rest of the group deals with a Worg Rider and his infantry support.

We are able to do a bit more sneaking later and kill a mercenary fighter and wizard before they could defend themselves. Stealth seems to work against even wizards until later levels, probably around 7 they'll start to have counter measures. Then we make the rookie mistake of seperating. Group 1, consisting of Bard, Redmage and Monk run into some green slime, Redmage fails his knowledge check with a 17 and monk dies before we can save him. Group 2 consists of Archer, Beguiler and Druid, they had the much tougher opponent in the form of a vampire, who brought along 13 wolves. They quickly swarmed the players, the DM ruling that two wolves could fit in a 5 foot square. Archer had no way to get through the Vampire's DR, but luckily since tripping is nerfed in pathfinder he wasn't dragged down by the wolves. The druid was so afraid of the Vampire he thought defensively the whole time, and didn't think to use any of his cure spells on the vampire. The beguiler was able to trick some of the enemies off a cliff. Druid died from negative levels, there was much whining about that later. Group 1 meet up with group 2 and Redmage enlarged Bard and healed Archer, Bard used powerattack and the extra damage from being enlarged to kill the Vampire.

This was a deadly encounter that didn't need to be. We leaned to not split up your group, buy backup weapons/arrows with different materials to overcome basic DR. Even at low levels consider some battlefield control, those wolves wouldn't have been so deadly if we didn't have to deal with them all at once. Even if I could have enlarged Monk (he had combat reflexes) There's a good chance he could have killed about 5 wolves a round if he stayed at the room's choke point.

Most of the party went up to level 5.
Thoughts on Session 3:
Red Mage - The mage armours I cast where useful, and the let the beguiler save his spells. I used a bow for most of this session, I wasn't as effective with it as Archer but I still contributed. I learned Scorching Ray as my first second level spell, it isn't dominating, but it is a touch attack that doesn't allow a save and except for alchemist's fire our party has no way of doing energy damage.
Bard - His biggest bonus went to the Archer, which really helped the Archer dominate.
Monk - Monk & Archer had a comptetition to see who could get the most kills, I think it was this session that Archer overtook Monk. Instead of changing his build Monk's player just choose to complain. It was embarassing to die to a dungeon hazard though. Good thing he saved enough for a reincarnate.
Druid - If this player was a little bit more aggressive with his powerful attacks he and Archer could have slew the Vampire, but Druid kept fighting defensively.
Archer - Except for the Wererats and the Vampire he dominated nearly every combat.
Beguiler - And some of the combats Archer didn't dominate the Beguiler's Colourspray did. It's a lot better to Coup de grace enemies then fight them.

Some of the whining from the players in the session was pretty funny, at least for the first hour. Negative levels are difficult for a low level group to deal with.

[kevin_video]

I'm reading over the diary, and it says in the published book that the players probably shouldn't have completely green characters, and maybe an introductory adventure that lead to the Shackled City would be best. Did you do that? If so, what did you use? If not, what would you suggest?

[NiteCyper]

1. Check out the "Player's Guide to Healing",
2. re: trapfinding: the Kobold Domain's Granted Power grants Trapfinding. Thus, the Planar Touchstone (Catalogues of Enlightenment [Kobold]) feat grants trapfinding.

Hopefully this advice helps; I don't know Pathfinder Beta rules and whatnot. Take what you can.

[juton]

I'm reading over the diary, and it says in the published book that the players probably shouldn't have completely green characters, and maybe an introductory adventure that lead to the Shackled City would be best. Did you do that? If so, what did you use? If not, what would you suggest?

Wow this is some serious thread necromancy. I think any reasonably competent group can tackle the Shackled City straight on if they remember to rest when they are running low on resources, and the DM doesn't always wait to the end of the session/adventure to allow leveling up.

1. Check out the "Player's Guide to Healing",
2. re: trapfinding: the Kobold Domain's Granted Power grants Trapfinding. Thus, the Planar Touchstone (Catalogues of Enlightenment [Kobold]) feat grants trapfinding.

Hopefully this advice helps; I don't know Pathfinder Beta rules and whatnot. Take what you can.

One quibble with this, well the Kobold domain advice, not every DM will allow something like this. Of the three I'm thinking of I think every one would have an issue with it, which isn't to say yours will, it's just something to bear in mind.

Specifically, the Shackled City AP is the most Gygaxian thing I've played in 3.5 save the Tome of Horrors. By Gygaxian I mean there are traps everywhere. I cannot more strongly recommend at least 1 party member have trapfinding and the skills to use it in the first adventure. Some of the worst traps are also mechanical in nature so you can't detect them by magic and if they are sprung you get ambushed. So actually being able to disarm them can make your lives a lot easier.