Brilliant Gameologists Forum

The Thinktank => Min/Max It! => Topic started by: Endarire on November 06, 2010, 06:37:23 AM

Title: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: Endarire on November 06, 2010, 06:37:23 AM
I know what SR does, or at least, should do, which is block spells.

There are so many ways to bypass or negate SR that SR, especially beatable SR, seems like a waste.

Seemingly, the main reason SR exists is to hamper blasters, but even some boom spells like orb of fire don't check SR.

What is your take on this?
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: Empirate on November 06, 2010, 08:21:08 AM

Most damaging spells are blocked by SR, as are most direct save-or-dies/save-or-sucks. Taking a look just at Core spells beginning with an 'F' (for no particular reason): Fear, Feeblemind, Finger of Death, Flesh to Stone... all blocked by SR. These are neither exceedingly rare nor particularly unimpressive spells. Seems SR can really do some good things for you.

Look at it this way:
We know Conjuration is the best school - because it doesn't allow SR on many of its spells.
We know battlefield control is the most reliable way to contribute by casting spells - among other things, because SR doesn't help against it much of the time.

Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: Sunic_Flames on November 06, 2010, 10:15:55 AM
I know what SR does, or at least, should do, which is block spells.

There are so many ways to bypass or negate SR that SR, especially beatable SR, seems like a waste.

Seemingly, the main reason SR exists is to hamper blasters, but even some boom spells like orb of fire don't check SR.

What is your take on this?

That SR is a joke stat that should be disregarded. It doesn't play any real role in the power of a creature despite how common it is (seriously, 90% of creatures CR 13 and higher have SR in core) and if a creatures power is primarily based on having it (Drow) they end up incredibly weak, just like anyone else who got burdened with an overpriced feature (full BAB being the other big one, but that is outside the scope of this topic).

It is even detrimental to the user, as it can block beneficial spells cast on you by anyone other than you, unless you waste your whole round to not be hindered by the beneficial thing you're paying a significant cost for.

Just keep in mind that anything whose cost is primarily based on the assumption SR is worth a damn will need considerable buffing. If they just have it (most monsters) then leave them alone, no need to change anything.
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: Ramaloke on November 06, 2010, 10:58:18 AM
As far as I can tell SRs main point is to prevent a bunch of low level mook wizards from ganking you with magic missile.  :twitch :twitch

Seriously.
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: RelentlessImp on November 06, 2010, 11:01:46 AM
As far as I can tell SRs main point is to prevent a bunch of low level mook wizards from ganking you with magic missile.  :twitch :twitch

Seriously.

Right. So they do it with Lesser Orb of Sound instead. Because seriously, who's got resistance to sonic damage? It never comes up. [Sonic] affects, sure, but not Sonic damage.
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: ImmortalSoul on November 06, 2010, 11:20:49 AM
Aren't there some monsters like the hangman golem that are "immun to any magic that allows SR"?

Other than that I don't know, it probably depends on the campaigns you play in. Our last wizard felt that Assay Spell Resistance and the like were a total waste and thus failed hurting a dragon we encountered. Didn't change his mind afterwards, either.
If your group composition is healer/tank/skillmonkey/blaster, SR can definately limit them, mainly depending on their spellchoices. Some people just won't take anything that doesn't do damage.
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: Sunic_Flames on November 06, 2010, 11:40:23 AM
Aren't there some monsters like the hangman golem that are "immun to any magic that allows SR"?

Other than that I don't know, it probably depends on the campaigns you play in. Our last wizard felt that Assay Spell Resistance and the like were a total waste and thus failed hurting a dragon we encountered. Didn't change his mind afterwards, either.
If your group composition is healer/tank/skillmonkey/blaster, SR can definately limit them, mainly depending on their spellchoices. Some people just won't take anything that doesn't do damage.

This is true, but that's a separate factor. Namely, the reason why golems are actually weak to magic. Which is more a weakness of the Construct type than anything else.

But SR only blocks the spells that are fucked anyways. There's a reason why I addressed that in my house rules thread.
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: Necrosnoop110 on November 06, 2010, 12:30:38 PM
This is true, but that's a separate factor. Namely, the reason why golems are actually weak to magic. Which is more a weakness of the Construct type than anything else.

But SR only blocks the spells that are fucked anyways. There's a reason why I addressed that in my house rules thread.
1) Explain that bit about "golems are actually weak to magic"? That's blowing my mind.
2) Can you post a link to your house rules thread?

Thanks,
Necro
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: Sunic_Flames on November 06, 2010, 01:01:07 PM
This is true, but that's a separate factor. Namely, the reason why golems are actually weak to magic. Which is more a weakness of the Construct type than anything else.

But SR only blocks the spells that are fucked anyways. There's a reason why I addressed that in my house rules thread.
1) Explain that bit about "golems are actually weak to magic"? That's blowing my mind.
2) Can you post a link to your house rules thread?

Thanks,
Necro

Most people see the words "Magic Immunity" and logically conclude that makes golems immune to magic. A reasonable conclusion. But if you actually read the definition of the ability, what it actually says is that golems are immune to all spells that allow SR, with a handful of exceptions specified. Which means it's a gigantic misnomer.

What it actually means is that golems effectively have infinite SR, with a few exceptions. Of course, SR is a joke, so even having an infinite amount of it is still a joke. Consequently you cast SR: No spells, of which there are plenty. Now check their save lines. See how terrible they are?

"Golems are weak to magic."

QED.

Also...

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9826.0
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: BeholderSlayer on November 06, 2010, 01:14:50 PM
Yeah, basically toss up a Glitterdust and laugh at golems as they utterly fail, almost every single time. The only golem with a remotely decent will save listed in the MMI is the Greater Stone Golem (CR 16), at +14. Everything else from CR 7 to 11 (maybe more) has a +3 or +4. At level 16, the golem's inability to fly takes over and makes it an enemy to be completely ignored.
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: Necrosnoop110 on November 06, 2010, 01:50:16 PM
This is true, but that's a separate factor. Namely, the reason why golems are actually weak to magic. Which is more a weakness of the Construct type than anything else.

But SR only blocks the spells that are fucked anyways. There's a reason why I addressed that in my house rules thread.
1) Explain that bit about "golems are actually weak to magic"? That's blowing my mind.
2) Can you post a link to your house rules thread?

Thanks,
Necro

Most people see the words "Magic Immunity" and logically conclude that makes golems immune to magic. A reasonable conclusion. But if you actually read the definition of the ability, what it actually says is that golems are immune to all spells that allow SR, with a handful of exceptions specified. Which means it's a gigantic misnomer.

What it actually means is that golems effectively have infinite SR, with a few exceptions. Of course, SR is a joke, so even having an infinite amount of it is still a joke. Consequently you cast SR: No spells, of which there are plenty. Now check their save lines. See how terrible they are?

"Golems are weak to magic."

QED.

Also...

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9826.0
I know how SR works, I wasn't asking that. And what you say is largely technically true but I just don't see "Golems are weak to magic" as a proper conclusion to what you are saying. Being effectively immune to half the spells in the game and having "standard" resistances to the rest doesn't seem weak at all to me. I'm not saying that golems are unbeatable or should be considered the creatures MOST resistant to magic in the game but weak? Where's the weakness?

Oh and thanks for the link I'm stealing some of those houerules for my game. Well done. :)

Peace,
Necro
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: Sunic_Flames on November 06, 2010, 02:00:08 PM
This is true, but that's a separate factor. Namely, the reason why golems are actually weak to magic. Which is more a weakness of the Construct type than anything else.

But SR only blocks the spells that are fucked anyways. There's a reason why I addressed that in my house rules thread.
1) Explain that bit about "golems are actually weak to magic"? That's blowing my mind.
2) Can you post a link to your house rules thread?

Thanks,
Necro

Most people see the words "Magic Immunity" and logically conclude that makes golems immune to magic. A reasonable conclusion. But if you actually read the definition of the ability, what it actually says is that golems are immune to all spells that allow SR, with a handful of exceptions specified. Which means it's a gigantic misnomer.

What it actually means is that golems effectively have infinite SR, with a few exceptions. Of course, SR is a joke, so even having an infinite amount of it is still a joke. Consequently you cast SR: No spells, of which there are plenty. Now check their save lines. See how terrible they are?

"Golems are weak to magic."

QED.

Also...

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9826.0
I know how SR works, I wasn't asking that. And what you say is largely technically true but I just don't see "Golems are weak to magic" as a proper conclusion to what you are saying. Being effectively immune to half the spells in the game and having "standard" resistances to the rest doesn't seem weak at all to me. I'm not saying that golems are unbeatable or should be considered the creatures MOST resistant to magic in the game but weak? Where's the weakness?

Oh and thanks for the link I'm stealing some of those houerules for my game. Well done. :)

Peace,
Necro

They have terrible saves. All of the good spells still work. What is difficult to understand?

To be good against magic they would need to have one of the following:

Immunity to ALL spells. Which is actually impossible, as even if they are immune to all direct spells you can still use spells indirectly.

High saves, not low saves.

They have neither of these things. So golems laugh at blasters a little harder than other encounters laugh at them. The competent casters do not care.

As for the house rules, they are selected both for their individual effects and their interactions with each other. As such they are not meant to be cherry picked. That will give you a train wreck. They are meant to be used together.
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: Bauglir on November 06, 2010, 02:15:53 PM
Sunic, I think his point is that blanket immunity to a category of spells is a strict improvement from the normal situation. They aren't particularly weak to magic, except to the same extent Undead are (by virtue of shitty hit dice, which they tend to have lots of as a mitigating factor). That their immunity doesn't actually serve to PROTECT them very well doesn't mean it accomplishes the opposite.
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: Necrosnoop110 on November 06, 2010, 02:18:57 PM
This is true, but that's a separate factor. Namely, the reason why golems are actually weak to magic. Which is more a weakness of the Construct type than anything else.

But SR only blocks the spells that are fucked anyways. There's a reason why I addressed that in my house rules thread.
1) Explain that bit about "golems are actually weak to magic"? That's blowing my mind.
2) Can you post a link to your house rules thread?

Thanks,
Necro

Most people see the words "Magic Immunity" and logically conclude that makes golems immune to magic. A reasonable conclusion. But if you actually read the definition of the ability, what it actually says is that golems are immune to all spells that allow SR, with a handful of exceptions specified. Which means it's a gigantic misnomer.

What it actually means is that golems effectively have infinite SR, with a few exceptions. Of course, SR is a joke, so even having an infinite amount of it is still a joke. Consequently you cast SR: No spells, of which there are plenty. Now check their save lines. See how terrible they are?

"Golems are weak to magic."

QED.

Also...

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9826.0
I know how SR works, I wasn't asking that. And what you say is largely technically true but I just don't see "Golems are weak to magic" as a proper conclusion to what you are saying. Being effectively immune to half the spells in the game and having "standard" resistances to the rest doesn't seem weak at all to me. I'm not saying that golems are unbeatable or should be considered the creatures MOST resistant to magic in the game but weak? Where's the weakness?

Oh and thanks for the link I'm stealing some of those houerules for my game. Well done. :)

Peace,
Necro

They have terrible saves. All of the good spells still work. What is difficult to understand?

To be good against magic they would need to have one of the following:

Immunity to ALL spells. Which is actually impossible, as even if they are immune to all direct spells you can still use spells indirectly.

High saves, not low saves.

They have neither of these things. So golems laugh at blasters a little harder than other encounters laugh at them. The competent casters do not care.

As for the house rules, they are selected both for their individual effects and their interactions with each other. As such they are not meant to be cherry picked. That will give you a train wreck. They are meant to be used together.
1) Yeah they do have weak saves I overlooked that. You do have a point. I wonder why that is the case. I look at the MMI table 4-1 and constructs have no good saves at all. I just assumed that their saves were appropriate for their "level." But it still is not the fault of SR that makes them weak, it is their odd lack of any sort of good saves. As you said, it's "more a weakness of the Construct type than anything else."  

2) As to your houserules I was trying to give you a complement. So you're telling me if if cherry pick "max HD at each level" and "If you have at least 4 BAB, you can Precise Shot with any ranged weapon you are proficient in and are treated as if you have the Point Blank Shot feat without actually taking it" my game will fall apart?

Peace,
Necro
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: raith0 on November 06, 2010, 02:21:35 PM
in Theory i believe that SR was ment to be the AC for the mage to deal with.  now that it comepletely fails due to many reasons is another thing all together.  

  
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: Kajhera on November 06, 2010, 02:23:08 PM
The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed.

Apparently.
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: Sunic_Flames on November 06, 2010, 02:40:36 PM
Sunic, I think his point is that blanket immunity to a category of spells is a strict improvement from the normal situation. They aren't particularly weak to magic, except to the same extent Undead are (by virtue of shitty hit dice, which they tend to have lots of as a mitigating factor). That their immunity doesn't actually serve to PROTECT them very well doesn't mean it accomplishes the opposite.

Undead have good Will saves, which is half the battle. They are also outright immune to many of the good spells. This includes the same spells that Constructs are immune to, but is not limited to them. Most undead are intelligent. This makes them immune to many more shutdowns.

Seeing a golem at any level provokes the following response: "Cute, I cast Silent Image/Obscuring Mist/Glitterdust from a throwaway slot, and auto win. Now where's the nearby Wizard?"
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: Sunic_Flames on November 06, 2010, 02:47:28 PM
This is true, but that's a separate factor. Namely, the reason why golems are actually weak to magic. Which is more a weakness of the Construct type than anything else.

But SR only blocks the spells that are fucked anyways. There's a reason why I addressed that in my house rules thread.
1) Explain that bit about "golems are actually weak to magic"? That's blowing my mind.
2) Can you post a link to your house rules thread?

Thanks,
Necro

Most people see the words "Magic Immunity" and logically conclude that makes golems immune to magic. A reasonable conclusion. But if you actually read the definition of the ability, what it actually says is that golems are immune to all spells that allow SR, with a handful of exceptions specified. Which means it's a gigantic misnomer.

What it actually means is that golems effectively have infinite SR, with a few exceptions. Of course, SR is a joke, so even having an infinite amount of it is still a joke. Consequently you cast SR: No spells, of which there are plenty. Now check their save lines. See how terrible they are?

"Golems are weak to magic."

QED.

Also...

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9826.0
I know how SR works, I wasn't asking that. And what you say is largely technically true but I just don't see "Golems are weak to magic" as a proper conclusion to what you are saying. Being effectively immune to half the spells in the game and having "standard" resistances to the rest doesn't seem weak at all to me. I'm not saying that golems are unbeatable or should be considered the creatures MOST resistant to magic in the game but weak? Where's the weakness?

Oh and thanks for the link I'm stealing some of those houerules for my game. Well done. :)

Peace,
Necro

They have terrible saves. All of the good spells still work. What is difficult to understand?

To be good against magic they would need to have one of the following:

Immunity to ALL spells. Which is actually impossible, as even if they are immune to all direct spells you can still use spells indirectly.

High saves, not low saves.

They have neither of these things. So golems laugh at blasters a little harder than other encounters laugh at them. The competent casters do not care.

As for the house rules, they are selected both for their individual effects and their interactions with each other. As such they are not meant to be cherry picked. That will give you a train wreck. They are meant to be used together.
1) Yeah they do have weak saves I overlooked that. You do have a point. I wonder why that is the case. I look at the MMI table 4-1 and constructs have no good saves at all. I just assumed that their saves were appropriate for their "level." But it still is not the fault of SR that makes them weak, it is their odd lack of any sort of good saves. As you said, it's "more a weakness of the Construct type than anything else."  

2) As to your houserules I was trying to give you a complement. So you're telling me if if cherry pick "max HD at each level" and "If you have at least 4 BAB, you can Precise Shot with any ranged weapon you are proficient in and are treated as if you have the Point Blank Shot feat without actually taking it" my game will fall apart?

Peace,
Necro

It is in a way. See, just as SR itself was massively overvalued anything based on it also is. The designers erroneously assumes infinite SR = Magic Immunity, without looking at their own spell lists. And keep in mind I'm assuming core only, so someone can't say some lie about non core being imbalanced. Had they not done this, you'd probably see the Construct type having some/all good saves. Though admittedly this still wouldn't help much. If you made it all good saves, a 12 HD construct gains +4 across the board. Still single digit numbers though. So still weak to magic. You wouldn't actually see good numbers until you got into HD advancement (Greater Stone Golem). In which case it would have 23, modified by stats across the board. That's good at the level. Doesn't change the fact every other golem is far too low.

I made that comment about the houserules to make you aware of it. In that specific instance you wouldn't break the game, but you also wouldn't do anything with it. Archers would still suck, they'd just not have a feat tax. Non casters would still suck, they'd just take a little longer to auto attack things, and things would take a little longer to auto attack them. Without the other buffs, all you've done is buff casters. Not doing enough to fix the problem does nothing but erroneously convince some people that you actually did fix it. Which means instead of removing the trap, you bait people into it. Such is the Paizil way. Don't pull a Paizil.

The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed.

Apparently.

And healed. Don't forget that.
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: Necrosnoop110 on November 06, 2010, 02:50:09 PM
Who what is Paizil?
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: Sunic_Flames on November 06, 2010, 02:52:02 PM
Who what is Paizil?

Paizo + Fail. Used to refer to anyone who embodies the Paizo backasswards ideals. Namely these.

Standard Paizil Fare/Fail (SPF) Type I - doing exactly the opposite of what they said they would do.
Standard Paizil Fare/Fail (SPF) Type II - change for the sake of change.
Standard Paizil Fare/Fail (SPF) Type III - the illusion of change.
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: Nunkuruji on November 06, 2010, 02:52:26 PM
Protection from wands/scrolls/etc, making low level spellcaster mooks a non-threat, as well as non-pure spellcasters (gish, rangers, paladins, etc.)
For example, a paladin's protection from evil won't be effective against an evil outsiders SR, but a cleric's will.

I doubt they wanted to make it super effective against pure casters, seeing as how it would make the game very unfun for the non-CO T3 'I like to blast' guys.

Personally, I like to abuse it on NPC spellcasters with SR (usually drow, etc), in order to manipulate effects that will affect my PCs but not itself. My PCs never bother to pick up SR, /shrug.
Such as per the Scattering Trap thread, set the CL of the spell just under the casters own SR
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: Bauglir on November 06, 2010, 03:53:58 PM
Sunic, I think his point is that blanket immunity to a category of spells is a strict improvement from the normal situation. They aren't particularly weak to magic, except to the same extent Undead are (by virtue of shitty hit dice, which they tend to have lots of as a mitigating factor). That their immunity doesn't actually serve to PROTECT them very well doesn't mean it accomplishes the opposite.

Undead have good Will saves, which is half the battle. They are also outright immune to many of the good spells. This includes the same spells that Constructs are immune to, but is not limited to them. Most undead are intelligent. This makes them immune to many more shutdowns.

Seeing a golem at any level provokes the following response: "Cute, I cast Silent Image/Obscuring Mist/Glitterdust from a throwaway slot, and auto win. Now where's the nearby Wizard?"

Good point. Mindlessness does kinda mean "Auto-lose to illusions". I ever mention the time my party killed a Greater Siege Crab with Silent Image? Good times.
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: Sunic_Flames on November 06, 2010, 04:21:26 PM
Lol.
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: awaken DM golem on November 06, 2010, 04:27:39 PM
4e went ahead and ditched the distinction of Saves or SR.
4e just has extra rolls of Saves.

Of course the intention is different ...
4e uses it to end effects quickly relative to 3e long lasting effects.

Re-rolls are basically a +3 or +4 depending on stuff.
If SR was "just" a reroll then blah blah boring blah happens.
Making it an extra mechanic, keeps everyone steaming about it for years ...  ;)
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: RobbyPants on November 06, 2010, 04:33:15 PM
I know what SR does, or at least, should do, which is block spells.

There are so many ways to bypass or negate SR that SR, especially beatable SR, seems like a waste.

Seemingly, the main reason SR exists is to hamper blasters, but even some boom spells like orb of fire don't check SR.

What is your take on this?
It's a throwback to earlier editions, where creatures would have Resist Magic x%.  Back then it was a flat percentage that didn't take the caster's level into account, and, so far as I remember, it worked on all magic.  You could probably talk your DM into blasting it with stuff propelled via Telekinesis or something, but I think those things were largely fiat.  Also, back then, I think golems had true magic immunity (other than to a handful of spells in their description, like now).

So, in 3E, they decided to add some common sense, changed the rules, and ultimately made them pointless, because clever casters just subvert them anyway.  :smirk
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: RelentlessImp on November 06, 2010, 04:40:57 PM
I know what SR does, or at least, should do, which is block spells.

There are so many ways to bypass or negate SR that SR, especially beatable SR, seems like a waste.

Seemingly, the main reason SR exists is to hamper blasters, but even some boom spells like orb of fire don't check SR.

What is your take on this?
It's a throwback to earlier editions, where creatures would have Resist Magic x%.  Back then it was a flat percentage that didn't take the caster's level into account, and, so far as I remember, it worked on all magic.  You could probably talk your DM into blasting it with stuff propelled via Telekinesis or something, but I think those things were largely fiat.  Also, back then, I think golems had true magic immunity (other than to a handful of spells in their description, like now).

So, in 3E, they decided to add some common sense, changed the rules, and ultimately made them pointless, because clever casters just subvert them anyway.  :smirk

Golems still had a few spells that affected them in 1E/2E. Like Stone Golems: rock to mud was a 50% slow for 2-12 melee rounds, mud to rock healed it to full, and stone to flesh made it vulnerable to all melee attacks (not just +2 or better weapons) on the next melee round.
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: RobbyPants on November 06, 2010, 04:49:51 PM
Golems still had a few spells that affected them in 1E/2E. Like Stone Golems: rock to mud was a 50% slow for 2-12 melee rounds, mud to rock healed it to full, and stone to flesh made it vulnerable to all melee attacks (not just +2 or better weapons) on the next melee round.
But other than that, it was flat-out 100% immunity, right?  Like, in 3E, Melf's Acid Arrow would work because it's SR: No.  I don't think you could even use MAA in 2E and earlier.
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: lans on November 06, 2010, 05:03:32 PM
How did spell resistance work in 2nd? I remember ultraloths or something having 160% spell resistance.
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: Sunic_Flames on November 06, 2010, 05:38:42 PM
How did spell resistance work in 2nd? I remember ultraloths or something having 160% spell resistance.

Answer: It assumed you were an 11th level caster. Each level higher or lower is +/- 5%. High intelligence also lowers it, or something.

Basically what this meant is low level mages ran away from anything with any amount of magic resistance, and high level mages didn't give a fuck.
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: Ramaloke on November 06, 2010, 05:43:35 PM
I believe there were also spells which lowered SR just like 3.5 Assay Spell Resistance, that stacked.
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: RelentlessImp on November 06, 2010, 05:45:54 PM
Golems still had a few spells that affected them in 1E/2E. Like Stone Golems: rock to mud was a 50% slow for 2-12 melee rounds, mud to rock healed it to full, and stone to flesh made it vulnerable to all melee attacks (not just +2 or better weapons) on the next melee round.
But other than that, it was flat-out 100% immunity, right?  Like, in 3E, Melf's Acid Arrow would work because it's SR: No.  I don't think you could even use MAA in 2E and earlier.

They had the line "unaffected by most magic" rather than a Magic Resistance: Fuck You% entry. Their actual Magic Resistance entry was Magic Resistance: see below. So yes, it was 100%, but it wasn't adjusted via the method Sunic's outlined.

Now that I think about it, I guess it really was Fuck You%.
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: RobbyPants on November 06, 2010, 06:32:38 PM
Yeah.  It was a flat percentage chance, not modified by the caster level in any way.  Most things had values in five percent increments between about 25% and 50% or so.
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: Runestar on November 07, 2010, 09:14:37 AM
I always found it funny how iron golems could be slowed by electric jolt (a cantrip which ignores sr) despite their spell immunity. A cr13 monster stymied by a lv0 spell... :lol
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: Sunic_Flames on November 07, 2010, 09:26:31 AM
I always found it funny how iron golems could be slowed by electric jolt (a cantrip which ignores sr) despite their spell immunity. A cr13 monster stymied by a lv0 spell... :lol

Stupid enemies are never level appropriate. It's why, if I ever get to it in my houserules I'll be making sure to spell out that Shivering Touch is a penalty, and not damage and that Ray of Clumsiness is a penalty if it isn't already but Ray of Stupidity is NOT changed. Because without an easy button to instantly shut them down, some DMs might erroneously think they are still level appropriate just because the CR says they are. So Ray of Stupidity will not be nerfed to heavily discourage stupidity.
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: Kajhera on November 07, 2010, 01:58:08 PM
I always found it funny how iron golems could be slowed by electric jolt (a cantrip which ignores sr) despite their spell immunity. A cr13 monster stymied by a lv0 spell... :lol

Stupid enemies are never level appropriate. It's why, if I ever get to it in my houserules I'll be making sure to spell out that Shivering Touch is a penalty, and not damage and that Ray of Clumsiness is a penalty if it isn't already but Ray of Stupidity is NOT changed. Because without an easy button to instantly shut them down, some DMs might erroneously think they are still level appropriate just because the CR says they are. So Ray of Stupidity will not be nerfed to heavily discourage stupidity.

I take it your houserules are actually a reference for other DMs? Because the image of shouting at yourself for an error in CR estimation just amuses me. :P
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: RelentlessImp on November 07, 2010, 01:59:54 PM
I always found it funny how iron golems could be slowed by electric jolt (a cantrip which ignores sr) despite their spell immunity. A cr13 monster stymied by a lv0 spell... :lol

Stupid enemies are never level appropriate. It's why, if I ever get to it in my houserules I'll be making sure to spell out that Shivering Touch is a penalty, and not damage and that Ray of Clumsiness is a penalty if it isn't already but Ray of Stupidity is NOT changed. Because without an easy button to instantly shut them down, some DMs might erroneously think they are still level appropriate just because the CR says they are. So Ray of Stupidity will not be nerfed to heavily discourage stupidity.


I take it your houserules are actually a reference for other DMs? Because the image of shouting at yourself for an error in CR estimation just amuses me. :P
Sunic practices his shouting and smiting by screaming at himself in the mirror.
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: Sunic_Flames on November 07, 2010, 02:08:00 PM
I always found it funny how iron golems could be slowed by electric jolt (a cantrip which ignores sr) despite their spell immunity. A cr13 monster stymied by a lv0 spell... :lol

Stupid enemies are never level appropriate. It's why, if I ever get to it in my houserules I'll be making sure to spell out that Shivering Touch is a penalty, and not damage and that Ray of Clumsiness is a penalty if it isn't already but Ray of Stupidity is NOT changed. Because without an easy button to instantly shut them down, some DMs might erroneously think they are still level appropriate just because the CR says they are. So Ray of Stupidity will not be nerfed to heavily discourage stupidity.

I take it your houserules are actually a reference for other DMs? Because the image of shouting at yourself for an error in CR estimation just amuses me. :P

What I mean is that they were originally written for people that know what they are doing as both my own games that some of these rules were used in and the games of the other people that added to the list are both filled with people that have sound mechanical knowledge. This in turn leads to a number of unspoken understandings between the Mister Cavern and their players.

However when publishing those rules for the use of others, it's necessary to account for the fact that things we'd all take as a given and just not do (Shivering Touch for example) are not so obvious to the people that don't already know this stuff. And since releasing houserules to anyone outside your personal gaming circle means that you are definitionally writing for people that don't already know this stuff, it is necessary to account for this as well as their expected reactions. And that means nerfing Shivering Touch to not be an auto kill against just about anything big to make it explicit that that should not happen. It also means NOT nerfing Ray of Stupidity, because stupid brutes would just get trivialized in some low resource way anyways. Ray of Stupidity just makes it clear that you should not be using stupid brutes past the first few levels. Which, interestingly enough means said creatures expire at around the same time you can reasonably afford a fully charged wand of a 2nd level spell.

In short, it's not good enough to just copy and paste. Showing your houserules to anyone else outside of your gaming group requires you to add more to them.

Also, I suspect RelentlessImp hit himself with a not nerfed Ray of Stupidity by attacking the darkness, and hitting a mirror. :P
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: Bauglir on November 07, 2010, 02:59:54 PM
Wouldn't that just make Ray of Stupidity an incredibly good spell against anything, compared to other methods, because of metamagicking it? A Twinned Split Ray of Stupidity would be 4d4 points of Int damage. 10 points of Int damage, on average, will fuck with just about anything's day if it can actually take it, and that's really the bare minimum. Especially if the DM is playing monsters according to their mental ability scores. Not that you can't already do this, but deliberately ignoring one broken thing because it encourages people to game the system in a way you see as valuable is Not Good Design, especially since anybody who thinks Brutes are supposed to be serious challenges isn't likely to see a single spell as a comment on the game as a whole.
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: Sunic_Flames on November 07, 2010, 03:17:51 PM
Wouldn't that just make Ray of Stupidity an incredibly good spell against anything, compared to other methods, because of metamagicking it? A Twinned Split Ray of Stupidity would be 4d4 points of Int damage. 10 points of Int damage, on average, will fuck with just about anything's day if it can actually take it, and that's really the bare minimum. Especially if the DM is playing monsters according to their mental ability scores. Not that you can't already do this, but deliberately ignoring one broken thing because it encourages people to game the system in a way you see as valuable is Not Good Design, especially since anybody who thinks Brutes are supposed to be serious challenges isn't likely to see a single spell as a comment on the game as a whole.

Ray of Stupidity: Level 2.

Twin Spell: +4, cannot be reduced by more than 1, is not available via Sudden or Metamagic Rods.

Split Ray: +2, cannot be reduced by more than 1, is not available via Sudden or Metamagic Rods.

= Level 8 spell, can be brought as low as level 6.

I am supposed to care because...
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: Bauglir on November 07, 2010, 03:26:41 PM
Wouldn't that just make Ray of Stupidity an incredibly good spell against anything, compared to other methods, because of metamagicking it? A Twinned Split Ray of Stupidity would be 4d4 points of Int damage. 10 points of Int damage, on average, will fuck with just about anything's day if it can actually take it, and that's really the bare minimum. Especially if the DM is playing monsters according to their mental ability scores. Not that you can't already do this, but deliberately ignoring one broken thing because it encourages people to game the system in a way you see as valuable is Not Good Design, especially since anybody who thinks Brutes are supposed to be serious challenges isn't likely to see a single spell as a comment on the game as a whole.

Ray of Stupidity: Level 2.

Twin Spell: +4, cannot be reduced by more than 1, is not available via Sudden or Metamagic Rods.

Split Ray: +2, cannot be reduced by more than 1, is not available via Sudden or Metamagic Rods.

= Level 8 spell, can be brought as low as level 6.

I am supposed to care because...

Why, exactly, can't it be reduced by more than 1? I'm given to understand that stacking metamagic reducers was kind of a thing around these boards. Incantatrix + Arcane Thesis (a feat being easily worth it in order to destroy anything that isn't immune to Mind-Affecting Spells) would, if memory serves, easily drop it down to +1 level each, given the most conservative interpretation of metamagic reducers (that they can't reduce the cost below +1).

But that's really not the entire point. Anyone who doesn't already grasp what the problem is with low-Int, high-damage monsters is not going to see Ray of Stupidity and realize that such monsters are easily defeated and thus not worth their CRs, they're going to decide that Ray of Stupidity is broken and houserule it and complain about it on the Internet somewhere.

EDIT: Unless your houserules say you can't reduce metamagic more than once. Then ignore the first paragraph; I haven't read through all the houserules you've set up yet, sorry about that.
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: Vistella on November 07, 2010, 03:27:12 PM
you can bring twin down to +1 and then the twinned split ray ray of stupidity is a lvl4 spell

its even possible to make a lvl2 spell out of it with the right feats
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: PlzBreakMyCampaign on November 07, 2010, 04:07:44 PM
Not that I haven't been enjoying this thread, SF gave me several laughs, but the point is to give a 'must be this tall to ride' sign to casters. The problem is all the SR 'no' spells and the ways to buff CL or reduce SR. Simple solution?

Make all spells allow SR.
Double or triple all SR entries.
Allow option to have beneficial spells penetrate SR.

Does this do funny things like not interacting with magically created surfaces? Yes. Is this hilarious and a giant fuck you to casters? Yes, unless they really optimize.

The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed.
And healed. Don't forget that.
must... sig... this
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: Sunic_Flames on November 07, 2010, 04:18:20 PM
Wouldn't that just make Ray of Stupidity an incredibly good spell against anything, compared to other methods, because of metamagicking it? A Twinned Split Ray of Stupidity would be 4d4 points of Int damage. 10 points of Int damage, on average, will fuck with just about anything's day if it can actually take it, and that's really the bare minimum. Especially if the DM is playing monsters according to their mental ability scores. Not that you can't already do this, but deliberately ignoring one broken thing because it encourages people to game the system in a way you see as valuable is Not Good Design, especially since anybody who thinks Brutes are supposed to be serious challenges isn't likely to see a single spell as a comment on the game as a whole.

Ray of Stupidity: Level 2.

Twin Spell: +4, cannot be reduced by more than 1, is not available via Sudden or Metamagic Rods.

Split Ray: +2, cannot be reduced by more than 1, is not available via Sudden or Metamagic Rods.

= Level 8 spell, can be brought as low as level 6.

I am supposed to care because...

Why, exactly, can't it be reduced by more than 1? I'm given to understand that stacking metamagic reducers was kind of a thing around these boards. Incantatrix + Arcane Thesis (a feat being easily worth it in order to destroy anything that isn't immune to Mind-Affecting Spells) would, if memory serves, easily drop it down to +1 level each, given the most conservative interpretation of metamagic reducers (that they can't reduce the cost below +1).

But that's really not the entire point. Anyone who doesn't already grasp what the problem is with low-Int, high-damage monsters is not going to see Ray of Stupidity and realize that such monsters are easily defeated and thus not worth their CRs, they're going to decide that Ray of Stupidity is broken and houserule it and complain about it on the Internet somewhere.

EDIT: Unless your houserules say you can't reduce metamagic more than once. Then ignore the first paragraph; I haven't read through all the houserules you've set up yet, sorry about that.

Yes, it's assumed when I present houserules and say that they are meant to be used together that when discussing them they are indeed being used together.

Which means it works in exactly the manner I described, where doing that means 2 feats and an 8th level spell. By the way, 8th level spells grant categorical immunity to mind affecting and 4th level spells provide categorical immunity to rays. There's also miss chances, mirror image, and just high touch AC. Getting it down to 6th requires more feats and/or class features. It can't go lower.

And the real takeaway point here is that if you can't instant stat 0 them, you can just be flying as a matter of course and they can't touch you, or whatever. So no matter what, they aren't level appropriate. The Ray of Stupidity just makes it obvious.
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: wotmaniac on November 07, 2010, 05:07:02 PM
in a similar vein ... DR x/magic is completely worthless, as well.  but it does serve the purpose of keeping a field of 1st-level archers from taking down a Great Wyrm.
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: Sunic_Flames on November 07, 2010, 05:41:10 PM
in a similar vein ... DR x/magic is completely worthless, as well.  but it does serve the purpose of keeping a field of 1st-level archers from taking down a Great Wyrm.

Well the only reason that exists is as a pale shadow of DR x/+y which itself is a pale shadow of only damaged by +x or better weapons. Seems like a melee buff, but since they don't do enough all it really does is trick the gullible into thinking melee characters got better, when in fact they still can't hit enemies hard enough to make them care without optimizing.
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: Bauglir on November 07, 2010, 09:57:08 PM
Which means it works in exactly the manner I described, where doing that means 2 feats and an 8th level spell. By the way, 8th level spells grant categorical immunity to mind affecting and 4th level spells provide categorical immunity to rays. There's also miss chances, mirror image, and just high touch AC. Getting it down to 6th requires more feats and/or class features. It can't go lower.

And the real takeaway point here is that if you can't instant stat 0 them, you can just be flying as a matter of course and they can't touch you, or whatever. So no matter what, they aren't level appropriate. The Ray of Stupidity just makes it obvious.

Dude, you know as well as I do that D&D effectiveness isn't measured in terms of what PCs can do to each other, but in terms of how well they contribute to actual combats. Some of them will be against spellcasters capable of casting Mind Blank and Ray Deflection, but who gives a shit about them? Ray of Stupidity was already worthless against them, which makes that kind of a strawman. All I'm saying is that killing most encounters is worth a 6th level slot for each one and a feat, and if your DM is any good 10 points of Int damage will end an encounter against anything who isn't immune to it. Even if it doesn't insta-0 them, their tactics suddenly suck various types of balls.

The real takeaway point, though, is that Ray of Stupidity won't make it obvious to anybody who didn't already find it obvious, so there's no point in leaving it an exception unless you're trying, "to reward people for really mastering the game, and making players feel smart when they've figured out that one cardspell is better than the other."
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: RelentlessImp on November 07, 2010, 09:59:14 PM
The real takeaway point, though, is that Ray of Stupidity won't make it obvious to anybody who didn't already find it obvious, so there's no point in leaving it an exception unless you're trying to, "to reward people for really mastering the game, and making players feel smart when they've figured out that one cardspell is better than the other."

I see what you did there, Mr. Cooke.
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: Zaxter on November 07, 2010, 10:28:58 PM
Despite the OP's opinion, I say that SR has its uses. Acquiring methods to bypass SR consumes resources. Applying them often consumes actions. We all know the value of both of these, so why is an ability that's forcing you to give them up "a waste?"
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: raith0 on November 07, 2010, 11:19:53 PM
Despite the OP's opinion, I say that SR has its uses. Acquiring methods to bypass SR consumes resources. Applying them often consumes actions. We all know the value of both of these, so why is an ability that's forcing you to give them up "a waste?"

because its not often that it actually causes you to give up rescources for just the fact of over coming it.  so many spells are based on caster level so increasing it as high as possible is the goal and making most SRs the is done without spending resources or "wasting" actions
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: Zaxter on November 07, 2010, 11:44:32 PM
Despite the OP's opinion, I say that SR has its uses. Acquiring methods to bypass SR consumes resources. Applying them often consumes actions. We all know the value of both of these, so why is an ability that's forcing you to give them up "a waste?"

because its not often that it actually causes you to give up rescources for just the fact of over coming it.  so many spells are based on caster level so increasing it as high as possible is the goal and making most SRs the is done without spending resources or "wasting" actions
I think you'd have to have your CL constantly boosted by at least 5 or more (to be generous -- 10 is probably more accurate) to be able to trivialize SR that way. You rarely see casters getting more than +3 pre-epic (Orange Ioun Stone + that ring whose name I can't remember + Craft Magic Tattoo). That's hardly earth-shattering when it comes to beating SR, and if you boost it much more than that then you're probably in the more theoretical realm of optimization anyway.
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: Amechra on November 08, 2010, 01:43:33 AM
Despite the OP's opinion, I say that SR has its uses. Acquiring methods to bypass SR consumes resources. Applying them often consumes actions. We all know the value of both of these, so why is an ability that's forcing you to give them up "a waste?"

because its not often that it actually causes you to give up rescources for just the fact of over coming it.  so many spells are based on caster level so increasing it as high as possible is the goal and making most SRs the is done without spending resources or "wasting" actions
I think you'd have to have your CL constantly boosted by at least 5 or more (to be generous -- 10 is probably more accurate) to be able to trivialize SR that way. You rarely see casters getting more than +3 pre-epic (Orange Ioun Stone + that ring whose name I can't remember + Craft Magic Tattoo). That's hardly earth-shattering when it comes to beating SR, and if you boost it much more than that then you're probably in the more theoretical realm of optimization anyway.

Red Wizard of Thay is TO now?
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: raith0 on November 08, 2010, 08:44:19 AM
Despite the OP's opinion, I say that SR has its uses. Acquiring methods to bypass SR consumes resources. Applying them often consumes actions. We all know the value of both of these, so why is an ability that's forcing you to give them up "a waste?"

because its not often that it actually causes you to give up rescources for just the fact of over coming it.  so many spells are based on caster level so increasing it as high as possible is the goal and making most SRs the is done without spending resources or "wasting" actions
I think you'd have to have your CL constantly boosted by at least 5 or more (to be generous -- 10 is probably more accurate) to be able to trivialize SR that way. You rarely see casters getting more than +3 pre-epic (Orange Ioun Stone + that ring whose name I can't remember + Craft Magic Tattoo). That's hardly earth-shattering when it comes to beating SR, and if you boost it much more than that then you're probably in the more theoretical realm of optimization anyway.

Red Wizard of Thay is TO now?

or master specialist? Draconic Aura? IOT7FV ?  wow by that train of thought Elemental Savant becomes TO then too
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: Sunic_Flames on November 08, 2010, 09:49:55 AM
Which means it works in exactly the manner I described, where doing that means 2 feats and an 8th level spell. By the way, 8th level spells grant categorical immunity to mind affecting and 4th level spells provide categorical immunity to rays. There's also miss chances, mirror image, and just high touch AC. Getting it down to 6th requires more feats and/or class features. It can't go lower.

And the real takeaway point here is that if you can't instant stat 0 them, you can just be flying as a matter of course and they can't touch you, or whatever. So no matter what, they aren't level appropriate. The Ray of Stupidity just makes it obvious.

Dude, you know as well as I do that D&D effectiveness isn't measured in terms of what PCs can do to each other, but in terms of how well they contribute to actual combats. Some of them will be against spellcasters capable of casting Mind Blank and Ray Deflection, but who gives a shit about them? Ray of Stupidity was already worthless against them, which makes that kind of a strawman. All I'm saying is that killing most encounters is worth a 6th level slot for each one and a feat, and if your DM is any good 10 points of Int damage will end an encounter against anything who isn't immune to it. Even if it doesn't insta-0 them, their tactics suddenly suck various types of balls.

The real takeaway point, though, is that Ray of Stupidity won't make it obvious to anybody who didn't already find it obvious, so there's no point in leaving it an exception unless you're trying, "to reward people for really mastering the game, and making players feel smart when they've figured out that one cardspell is better than the other."

God fucking damnit, stop being an idiot and learn to read the entire post, not just a small part of it.
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: Sunic_Flames on November 08, 2010, 09:53:19 AM
Not that I haven't been enjoying this thread, SF gave me several laughs, but the point is to give a 'must be this tall to ride' sign to casters. The problem is all the SR 'no' spells and the ways to buff CL or reduce SR. Simple solution?

Make all spells allow SR.
Double or triple all SR entries.
Allow option to have beneficial spells penetrate SR.

Does this do funny things like not interacting with magically created surfaces? Yes. Is this hilarious and a giant fuck you to casters? Yes, unless they really optimize.

The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed.
And healed. Don't forget that.
must... sig... this

No, that's retarded and you should feel retarded.

Despite the OP's opinion, I say that SR has its uses. Acquiring methods to bypass SR consumes resources. Applying them often consumes actions. We all know the value of both of these, so why is an ability that's forcing you to give them up "a waste?"

Nope. Shutting down SR is even easier than shutting down Fighters, and it comes up more often at that. Not all of the methods use resources or actions.
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: Zaxter on November 08, 2010, 10:35:07 AM
Red Wizard of Thay is TO now?
Forgot that that increases CL until I checked just now, I've never seen it in actual use. It does come at a cost (banning an extra school), though the consensus on these boards seems to be that such a cost is marginal (makes me want to see how someone deals with a Focused Specialist/Red Wizard/Incantatrix who's had to drop 5 schools :p). However if you're referring to the trick where you use Leadership to grab +20 caster level every day, then yes, that's exactly the kind of stuff I'm talking about.

or master specialist? Draconic Aura? IOT7FV ?  wow by that train of thought Elemental Savant becomes TO then too
Master Specialist only increases CL for one school of magic, and I don't know what Draconic Aura does. As for IOt7FV and Elemental Savant, they don't increase CL, I don't know why you mentioned them.

Nope. Shutting down SR is even easier than shutting down Fighters, and it comes up more often at that. Not all of the methods use resources or actions.
Such as? If you're referring to picking spells that ignore SR (e.g. Orb of X), then chances are you've picked a spell specifically for overcoming SR rather than some other option, thus expending resources.
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: Sunic_Flames on November 08, 2010, 10:39:00 AM
Nope. Shutting down SR is even easier than shutting down Fighters, and it comes up more often at that. Not all of the methods use resources or actions.
Such as? If you're referring to picking spells that ignore SR (e.g. Orb of X), then chances are you've picked a spell specifically for overcoming SR rather than some other option, thus expending resources.

Bzzt! Most of the best spells ignore SR as a matter of course.
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: Bauglir on November 08, 2010, 11:55:24 AM
Which means it works in exactly the manner I described, where doing that means 2 feats and an 8th level spell. By the way, 8th level spells grant categorical immunity to mind affecting and 4th level spells provide categorical immunity to rays. There's also miss chances, mirror image, and just high touch AC. Getting it down to 6th requires more feats and/or class features. It can't go lower.

And the real takeaway point here is that if you can't instant stat 0 them, you can just be flying as a matter of course and they can't touch you, or whatever. So no matter what, they aren't level appropriate. The Ray of Stupidity just makes it obvious.

Dude, you know as well as I do that D&D effectiveness isn't measured in terms of what PCs can do to each other, but in terms of how well they contribute to actual combats. Some of them will be against spellcasters capable of casting Mind Blank and Ray Deflection, but who gives a shit about them? Ray of Stupidity was already worthless against them, which makes that kind of a strawman. All I'm saying is that killing most encounters is worth a 6th level slot for each one and a feat, and if your DM is any good 10 points of Int damage will end an encounter against anything who isn't immune to it. Even if it doesn't insta-0 them, their tactics suddenly suck various types of balls.

The real takeaway point, though, is that Ray of Stupidity won't make it obvious to anybody who didn't already find it obvious, so there's no point in leaving it an exception unless you're trying, "to reward people for really mastering the game, and making players feel smart when they've figured out that one cardspell is better than the other."

God fucking damnit, stop being an idiot and learn to read the entire post, not just a small part of it.

Kindly quote the part of your post I ignored? Near as I can tell, you pointed out that spells of lower level than a metamagick'd Ray of Stupidity grant immunity to it (which is true), and then that if you don't insta-0 a bruiser-type monster there's no point. But you seem to have been ignoring every point I've made except for my failure to properly account for your changes to metamagic adjustments.

Stop being an idiot and respond to my entire posts, not just small parts of them.
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: Sunic_Flames on November 08, 2010, 04:04:53 PM
You are still assuming all four rays hit, even though there are plenty of other means of preventing that from happening. For example, 50% miss chance vs all ranged attacks is super cheap. Miss chances and such are also cheap. Not to mention that most of the enemies that aren't casters (and therefore have awesome defenses by default) are big stupid bruisers, even if their Int happens to be 11 or better. Which means what happens is they still herp derp auto attack you, just like they would before. Which means you accomplished nothing. You're also assuming you always get average results. Thing is, like with anything else that imposes Critical Existence Failure below average rolls hurt you more than above average rolls help you. So that means when you fight the 10 Int guy, and roll a 9 collectively he's still there. And this has a slightly lower than 50% chance of happening, which, interestingly enough is a lower success rate than just using a standard save or lose against most non caster enemies.

Optimization forums. That means you have to account for Iterative Probability. Now Stop Having Fun Guys.

Hi Welcome
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: Bauglir on November 08, 2010, 06:25:42 PM
Your point being? All of those problems in landing the spell exist with the other spells you plan to nerf.

The thing about Ray of Stupidity is, if your DM isn't an animate pile of shit, dropping its Int score without hitting 0 will still have some effect on how the monster plays. If you don't think high Int is one of the (many) reasons why Dragons are badasses, you Fail At D&D about as hard as a Barbarian who thinks disintegrating anything he charges at by virtue of sheer damage puts him on par with a Wizard.

[EDIT: I do figure I need to be a bit clearer. Dropping the bastard to 1 Int means that, like before, he just charges and attacks, yes. On the other hand, it means that any tactic at all that relies on misdirection is likely to work, which basically means that if you can think in any terms other than numbers, you have Won Anyway. Not to mention that tons of monsters, while not casters, rely on special abilities (and because they're not actually casters, they don't have awesome defenses because they don't get to cherry-pick the nice spells).]

But you know what? Let's ignore that. Because, hilariously enough, the details of how the spell works aren't the point. The point you've consistently failed to address is that not nerfing Ray of Stupidity along with other ability damage spells does not, in any way, make it obvious that low Int monsters are not worth their CR. Your entire justification for treating that spell exceptionally is complete bullshit, because anybody who didn't already know that will instead declare that anything that makes it not so is broken, including Ray of Stupidity.
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: Sinfire Titan on November 08, 2010, 06:41:00 PM
SR sucks because the best spells have a range of Personal.
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: Sunic_Flames on November 08, 2010, 07:03:06 PM
God fucking damnit.

Hey you. Fucking fucker. Do you, or do you not cast this spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/feeblemind.htm) on non arcane spellcasters? Why or why not? And why don't you, even though it's also Int 1 and will do so regardless of the amount of Int the enemy actually has? Don't say 'it has a save' - your chances are about the same feebleminding a brute as they are getting 4 rays to all hit and produce average or better results, assuming that the feeblemind isn't more accurate (it likely is). Feeblemind is also lower level, and does not require two feats.

The answer of course is you don't, because that line of thought is retarded.

Shivering Touch on the other hand works well on anything big. Some of these are stupid brutes that don't deserve their CR. Others very much do. Dragons, for example. And there's fewer defenses against melee touch than ranged touch. Not to mention 3d6 means a lot more than 1d4 in CEF.
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: Zaxter on November 08, 2010, 07:09:49 PM
Nope. Shutting down SR is even easier than shutting down Fighters, and it comes up more often at that. Not all of the methods use resources or actions.
Such as? If you're referring to picking spells that ignore SR (e.g. Orb of X), then chances are you've picked a spell specifically for overcoming SR rather than some other option, thus expending resources.

Bzzt! Most of the best spells ignore SR as a matter of course.
Like what? And are they the best spells at least in part because they ignore SR, or is that just an added bonus? If the former, then my point stands.

SR sucks because the best spells have a range of Personal.
On the other hand, +1 to this. No amount of SR will protect you from Shapechange.
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: Bauglir on November 08, 2010, 07:25:02 PM
God fucking damnit.

Hey you. Fucking fucker. Do you, or do you not cast this spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/feeblemind.htm) on non arcane spellcasters? Why or why not? And why don't you, even though it's also Int 1 and will do so regardless of the amount of Int the enemy actually has? Don't say 'it has a save' - your chances are about the same feebleminding a brute as they are getting 4 rays to all hit and produce average or better results, assuming that the feeblemind isn't more accurate (it likely is). Feeblemind is also lower level, and does not require two feats.

The answer of course is you don't, because that line of thought is retarded.

Shivering Touch on the other hand works well on anything big. Some of these are stupid brutes that don't deserve their CR. Others very much do. Dragons, for example. And there's fewer defenses against melee touch than ranged touch. Not to mention 3d6 means a lot more than 1d4 in CEF.

I don't, because it has 0 chance of reducing Int to 0, whereas what Feeblemind does is basically the worst-case-scenario of "Oh shit, I guess the spell wasn't as effective as I'd hoped" with a metamagic'd Ray of Stupidity.

And, yeah, Shivering Touch works well on anything big. Your fucking point? Selectively nerfing spells sends a message to about 5 people in the Universe, and all of them have analyzed the game enough to realize that stupid brutes aren't often worth their CRs. What's so hard to grasp about that, that I've had to explain it three or four times now? Are you just incapable of basic reading comprehension, or are you actually this stupid?

Or are we actually arguing now that your selective nerfs are for balance reasons, instead of sending a message to players? If that's the case, fine by me. You're not done rewriting all the rules yet, so it's not exactly fair to have a shitstorm over a single rule that really ought to be judged in the larger context of the game, which is the point you should have been making all this goddamn time, dumbass.
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: skydragonknight on November 08, 2010, 07:43:48 PM
The thing about Ray of Stupidity is, if your DM isn't an animate pile of shit, dropping its Int score without hitting 0 will still have some effect on how the monster plays. If you don't think high Int is one of the (many) reasons why Dragons are badasses, you Fail At D&D about as hard as a Barbarian who thinks disintegrating anything he charges at by virtue of sheer damage puts him on par with a Wizard.

IQ of Dragons = DM IQ - DM Mercy
DM Mercy = (Party Tier Average) * (0 </= DM Kindness* </= 10)

*If DM Sadism >0, DM Kindness = 0
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: Bauglir on November 08, 2010, 07:51:39 PM
The thing about Ray of Stupidity is, if your DM isn't an animate pile of shit, dropping its Int score without hitting 0 will still have some effect on how the monster plays. If you don't think high Int is one of the (many) reasons why Dragons are badasses, you Fail At D&D about as hard as a Barbarian who thinks disintegrating anything he charges at by virtue of sheer damage puts him on par with a Wizard.

IQ of Dragons = DM IQ - DM Mercy
DM Mercy = (Party Tier Average) * (0 </= DM Kindness* </= 10)

*If DM Sadism >0, DM Kindness = 0

You make a good point! That quote on my part was a bit of hyperbole. If your DM doesn't play dragons as very intelligent to begin with, it won't make much difference one way or the other (and, in all fairness, that doesn't necessarily make a Bad DM).
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: awaken DM golem on November 08, 2010, 07:58:36 PM
not trying to be mean here, but this is too funny ...


X_______  practices his shouting and smiting by screaming at himself in the mirror.


 :lmao
... and it could be "targeted" at just about anyone.
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: Sinfire Titan on November 08, 2010, 08:03:09 PM
not trying to be mean here, but this is too funny ...
X_______  practices his shouting and smiting by screaming at himself in the mirror.
:lmao
... and it could be "targeted" at just about anyone.

It's a shame he always overcomes the mirror's SR.
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: awaken DM golem on November 08, 2010, 08:04:34 PM

IQ of Dragons = DM IQ - DM Mercy
DM Mercy = (Party Tier Average) * (0 </= DM Kindness* </= 10)

*If DM Sadism >0, DM Kindness = 0

 :lol ... and a 4th Edition Homer, would argue with this just because he thinks the rules don't matter.
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: Necrosnoop110 on November 08, 2010, 11:37:06 PM
While this is out in theory land, I just got to ask, so what would a balanced and meaningful SR-type mechanic look like?  

Peace,
Necro
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: Sinfire Titan on November 08, 2010, 11:44:53 PM
While this out in theory land, I just got to ask, so what would a balanced and meaningful SR-type mechanic look like? 

Peace,
Necro

Honestly? 4E's Defense system comes fairly close (though it leaves a bad taste in my mouth).
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: skydragonknight on November 08, 2010, 11:50:49 PM
While this out in theory land, I just got to ask, so what would a balanced and meaningful SR-type mechanic look like? 

Peace,
Necro

First, you don't want to fall off the RNG in either direction...stay within a 20%-80% success rate at any given level.
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: raith0 on November 09, 2010, 08:44:48 AM
while the 4ed defense system is close it still needs a lot of work,  the whole system is based on stat mod and nothing more since attack and defense scale equaly
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: Sunic_Flames on November 09, 2010, 09:09:09 AM
Nope. Shutting down SR is even easier than shutting down Fighters, and it comes up more often at that. Not all of the methods use resources or actions.
Such as? If you're referring to picking spells that ignore SR (e.g. Orb of X), then chances are you've picked a spell specifically for overcoming SR rather than some other option, thus expending resources.

Bzzt! Most of the best spells ignore SR as a matter of course.
Like what? And are they the best spells at least in part because they ignore SR, or is that just an added bonus? If the former, then my point stands.

Added bonus. For example Black Tentacles is something you would just do to anything Large or smaller that doesn't have FoM and can't teleport, particularly when combined with Solid Fog and/or persistent damage effects. The fact it works just as well even if the enemy has SR is a nice little bonus, but SR is so easily trivialized it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.

The same could be said of any other Conjuration: Creation effect. You're using it because the Conjuration school is awesome. And maybe to mock some gimp that thinks anti magic fields actually bother mages, instead of just making them hold up a sign saying "Aim your orbs here!"

The only way SR would be relevant is if you encountered (level + 25) SR at the absolute minimum, and even then all that would do is fuck over Evokers and Necromancers, while no one else cares. And even the Evokers and Necromancers can get themselves back to auto pass level rather easily.
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: PlzBreakMyCampaign on November 10, 2010, 05:28:41 AM
While this is out in theory land, I just got to ask, so what would a balanced and meaningful SR-type mechanic look like?  

Peace,
Necro
Yay for not reading even 1 page back. w.e I've stopped with the thread.
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: Necrosnoop110 on November 12, 2010, 01:59:20 AM
This thread got me thinking about creating a new mechanic called Arcane Defiance, not as a replacement for SR but as an alternative. You can check it out here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10009.0), feedback welcome.  

Peace,
Necro
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: AndyJames on November 15, 2010, 03:13:13 AM
As a member of a party where I am the only arcane caster and serious caster of any stripe (the other two were an Ogre Fighter/Kensai and a Rogue/Cleric) and I was a Wizard/Druid/MT/AH, I can categorically say that Grease shuts down golems faster than you can say SR FAIL!

We got into an arena fight At level about 10-ish with 1 Wizard, 1 Fighter and about 4-6 Flesh Golems (it was the final fight in a tournament, and it was SUPPOSED to be hard). First round, Haste. Second round, Dominate Person on the enemy Fighter (enemy Wizard was turned into a pincushion by a "bow which launches trees", or so the Ogre claimed; I saw no reason to contradict him...). Third to fifth round, Grease.

Sit back, relax, and let the TWO Fighters do their job. The Rogue/Cleric was just quietly weeping in the corner.

SR is silly because every caster I have ever played ALWAYS as an alternative plan in mind for creatures with either immunities or SR he cannot reliably penetrate. The AH above would Animal Growth his Companion Familiar (a Brown Bear), and let it do the whole grapple routine. Plus he would be Hasting and playing havoc with Grease (which was used throughout the entire campaign from Level 1 to Level 22) and other stuff. Polymorph Any Object became a staple when it was available (polymorph the ground under the platemail clad Cleric into a 5ft wide, 20ft deep smooth metal test-tube filled with water = dead cleric; no save, no SR. Cover it with a Shrink Item'd boulder for bonus points). I have never played a caster character who took the Spell Penetration feat. There is simply no reason to.
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: Sunic_Flames on November 15, 2010, 02:14:19 PM
Grease is a party buff. :lmao

Anyways, I think the consensus at this point is that the purpose of Spell Resistance is to delude the gullible into thinking casters are not living gods.
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: archangel.arcanis on November 15, 2010, 02:19:50 PM
Grease is a party buff. :lmao

Anyways, I think the consensus at this point is that the purpose of Spell Resistance is to delude the gullible into thinking casters are not living gods.
That and as someone said about 3.0 DR/SR: "it is really just a pissing contest between outsiders. Because actual players will just ignore it by using something else."
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: Sinfire Titan on November 15, 2010, 02:20:18 PM
Grease is a party buff. :lmao

Anyways, I think the consensus at this point is that the purpose of Spell Resistance is to delude the gullible into thinking casters are not living gods.

Agreed. And I see what you did there.
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: Sunic_Flames on November 15, 2010, 02:33:28 PM
Grease is a party buff. :lmao

Anyways, I think the consensus at this point is that the purpose of Spell Resistance is to delude the gullible into thinking casters are not living gods.

Agreed. And I see what you did there.

 :devil
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: Nytemare3701 on November 15, 2010, 02:53:22 PM
Grease is a party buff. :lmao

Wait, what?...aww... :twitch
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: awaken DM golem on November 17, 2010, 08:55:11 PM

Grease is a party barf ...  :puke

Anyways, I think the consensus at this point is that the purpose of Spell Resistance is to delude the gullible into thinking casters are not living gods.

So ... S.R. explains why Monks rock ??
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: raith0 on November 17, 2010, 10:13:14 PM

Grease is a party barf ...  :puke

Anyways, I think the consensus at this point is that the purpose of Spell Resistance is to delude the gullible into thinking casters are not living gods.

So ... S.R. explains why Monks rock ??



yes
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: BeholderSlayer on November 17, 2010, 10:41:10 PM
Hi Welcome
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: RelentlessImp on November 17, 2010, 10:49:27 PM
Hi Welcome
Emoclew Ih
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: Echoes on November 18, 2010, 12:02:13 AM
Nope. Shutting down SR is even easier than shutting down Fighters, and it comes up more often at that. Not all of the methods use resources or actions.
Such as? If you're referring to picking spells that ignore SR (e.g. Orb of X), then chances are you've picked a spell specifically for overcoming SR rather than some other option, thus expending resources.

Bzzt! Most of the best spells ignore SR as a matter of course.
Like what? And are they the best spells at least in part because they ignore SR, or is that just an added bonus? If the former, then my point stands.

Grease, silent image, glitterdust, web, sleet storm, stinking cloud, black tentacles, solid fog, telekinesis, wall of stone. That covers spell levels 1st - 5th, lets you target every save (including save: none), cover damage, debuff, and battlefield control, and all of them are Core. Those are spells that appear on practically every wizard's spell list because they rock your face.

Oh, and they're all SR: no (telekinesis doesn't allow SR when you throw lava at people).

A wizard can load up on awesome own-your-face spells and never roll against SR ever. And just to prove it, here's a spellbook for a 10th-level Core wizard that is totally playable. Enlarge person, feather fall, grease, mage armor, silent image, glitterdust, web, mirror image, see invisibility, haste, fly, sleet storm, stinking cloud, black tentacles, greater invisibility, polymorph, shrink item, solid fog, telekinesis, teleport, wall of stone. Not a single SR: yes spell that isn't a buff. You have an additional 1st-level spell for every point of intelligence modifier you possess, but I left those empty. This is literally the bare minimum you could possibly have if you started with an Int of 11 and never learned any spells beyond your free ones.

Oh, and you only draw from 5 schools of magic: abjuration, conjuration, divination, illusion, and transmutation. So you can be a Red Wizard (I recommend conjurer) without losing a thing.
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: Sunic_Flames on November 18, 2010, 09:59:15 AM
Hi Welcome

Thanks, he needed that.
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: SiggyDevil on November 19, 2010, 12:43:02 AM
Here's my fix for SR, not that many in this subforum give a shit about houserules but w/e

Antimagic (Ex):
BAB 1+: +2 Resistance bonus to all saves and AC against magic
BAB 6+: +5 Resistance bonus to all saves and AC against magic
BAB 11+: +10 Resistance bonus to all saves and AC against magic
BAB 16+: constant Antimagic Field effect with a range of Self (can be suppressed)
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: AndyJames on November 19, 2010, 12:52:30 AM
God fucking damnit.

Hey you. Fucking fucker. Do you, or do you not cast this spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/feeblemind.htm) on non arcane spellcasters? Why or why not? And why don't you, even though it's also Int 1 and will do so regardless of the amount of Int the enemy actually has? Don't say 'it has a save' - your chances are about the same feebleminding a brute as they are getting 4 rays to all hit and produce average or better results, assuming that the feeblemind isn't more accurate (it likely is). Feeblemind is also lower level, and does not require two feats.

The answer of course is you don't, because that line of thought is retarded.

Shivering Touch on the other hand works well on anything big. Some of these are stupid brutes that don't deserve their CR. Others very much do. Dragons, for example. And there's fewer defenses against melee touch than ranged touch. Not to mention 3d6 means a lot more than 1d4 in CEF.

Actually, Sunic, a question about this.

Wouldn't a Feeblemind coupled with a quickened Ray of Stupid shut the big dumb fools down instantly?
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: Sunic_Flames on December 03, 2010, 09:49:43 AM
God fucking damnit.

Hey you. Fucking fucker. Do you, or do you not cast this spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/feeblemind.htm) on non arcane spellcasters? Why or why not? And why don't you, even though it's also Int 1 and will do so regardless of the amount of Int the enemy actually has? Don't say 'it has a save' - your chances are about the same feebleminding a brute as they are getting 4 rays to all hit and produce average or better results, assuming that the feeblemind isn't more accurate (it likely is). Feeblemind is also lower level, and does not require two feats.

The answer of course is you don't, because that line of thought is retarded.

Shivering Touch on the other hand works well on anything big. Some of these are stupid brutes that don't deserve their CR. Others very much do. Dragons, for example. And there's fewer defenses against melee touch than ranged touch. Not to mention 3d6 means a lot more than 1d4 in CEF.

Actually, Sunic, a question about this.

Wouldn't a Feeblemind coupled with a quickened Ray of Stupid shut the big dumb fools down instantly?

Missed this.

Yes it would. But that's a 5th and then a 6th level spell, the former of which requires a Will save. Against a big dumb fool. Except he's not actually taken out until round 2.

...Do I even need to explain why this isn't efficient?
Title: Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
Post by: IlPazzo on December 03, 2010, 12:56:32 PM
Here's my fix for SR, not that many in this subforum give a shit about houserules but w/e

Antimagic (Ex):
BAB 1+: +2 Resistance bonus to all saves and AC against magic
BAB 6+: +5 Resistance bonus to all saves and AC against magic
BAB 11+: +10 Resistance bonus to all saves and AC against magic
BAB 16+: constant Antimagic Field effect with a range of Self (can be suppressed)


16+ is easily available to any gish. I suggest making that at least 17+
Still, that wouldn't protect the poor melee guy from, i.e., summons and area effects with duration: instantaneous centered outside the antimagic field. At least, he would be protected from most save or die, I guess.