Brilliant Gameologists Forum
The Thinktank => Min/Max It! => : Nasteh October 21, 2010, 03:53:18 PM
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Hi optimizers,
I have a bit of a problem, as I am looking to play a gish and have fallen for the Pala2/Sorc6/Abjurant Champ 5.
My problem is, I can't figure out a way to get around arcane spell failure, and I am hoping you can help me build a decent gish.
Here are my thoughts and restrictions:
Material: All material except for Tome Of Battle, Unearthed arcana and Dragon Magazine.
Houserule:
When you enter a prestige class you have to finish it, so no dipping around.
We will have very little in terms of magical gear.
Tier 1 classes http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0 (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0)is not allowed nor any form of teleportation (if that is relevant for some reason)
What I hope you can do:
Suggest a Gish build, that will be viable allready at level 5-6 or so (this is the starting levels) without any cheese :)
Hoping you can Help
/Jacob
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Use Mage ARmor, Shield, and Alter Self to get +16 to AC
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1 level of Spellsword (CWar) should be of little difficulty to qualify for, gaining -10% ASF
The Shove it to Beatsticks thread contains info on how to make armor with little to no ASF.
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=331.0
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Wow, thank you for the super fast replies.
Solo: I realise it's possible to do with spells and a straight sorc would probably be better. But I would like an armour wearing guy, and I'd prefer if Paladin/sorc is the core (open for other stuff though).
Nunku: Ye, I realise spellsword would be the best way of doing it, but if I start on spellsword I'd have to take all 10 levels (house rule) and I can't imagine that to be a worthy choice, when you compare it to abjurant champion :)
/Jacob
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still spell? +1 spell lvl, but its comprehensive...
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Sorry, missed the houserule. You could always spell thematic your mage armor to make it look like real armor ;)
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Too bad Luminous Armor doesn't work for spontaneous casters from what I recall.
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mithral twilight chain shirt should be fine
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When playing a Sorcadin, I usually go with armour and a greatsword at the low levels. Usually a breastplate, mithral if I can get it. Twilight if I can get that as well. I use most my spells for pre-combat buffs, and detect magic. Since I have 6+ spells per day, I don't care that I have a 25% chance of missing the spell, I'll just cast it again if it is not in combat.
Sorcadins require quite decent stats though, you'll want a high dex because you wont be wearing lots of armour, a good con because sorc loses you a lot of hit points, a high Cha for both saves, lay on hands and spells, and a high strength because you want to hit stuff.
So if you have the stats for it, Sorcadin can be quite decent at level 5, hit things with your greatsword, get some armour and use your spells for buffing. If you can get the instant metamagic sorcerer variant, you can take two feats to make all your spells work in armour, namely still spells and easy metamagic still spell IIRC. If not, you'll have to take a feat for each spell you want to cast in armour, Arcane thesis, which is why it wont be worth it.
If you can get access to the Races of Stone Dwarf prestige class (runecaster or something) you can cast all your spells without somatic components, making you wanting to wear that full plate all the time.
In any case you could just use shield, mage armour and Alter Self, but it is the simple solution.
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You can take versatile spellcaster + still spell so that you can cast your highest level spells without ASF, but it cuts your spells per day in half. The best non-magic armour without ASF is a Feycrafted (DMGII) Blended Quartz (Arms & Equipment Guide) Breastplate. If you can get armour enchanted then you can get the same thing as full plate, with twighlight (PHB2) which reduces your ASF another 10%.
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w/ the natural synergy and phonemic easy in the sorcadin, it should have it own hand book.
cant talk you into a duskblade? i know it gives up lots of spells..
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Srd 9th lvl spells w/ somatic components.
[spoiler]Astral Projection
Crushing Hand
Dominate Monster
Energy Drain
Etherealness
Foresight
Freedom
Gate
Hold Monster, Mass
Imprisonment
Meteor Swarm
Refuge
Shades
Shapechange
Soul Bind
Summon Monster IX
Weird[/spoiler]
and srd 9th lvl sorc spells without
[spoiler]Mage's Disjunction
Power Word Kill
Prismatic Sphere
Teleportation Circle
Time Stop
Wail of the Banshee
Wish[/spoiler]
you could do very well for your self with strictly non somatic 9's and gate
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Armor class is overrated. With spells like greater mirror image, blink, and displacement your AC won't be much of an issue and even then you'll have quickened shield for +9 AC, mage armor for +4 AC, and any natural armor bonuses from polymorph/alter self.
With these house rules greater magic weapon becomes an even better spell to know.
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Too bad Luminous Armor doesn't work for spontaneous casters from what I recall.
Yeah, and I think that's lame. Personally I'll allow a spontaneous caster to use it. It's just like always with how WotC says a big :fo to sorcerers. My group ignores this rule.
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So many replies, thanks a lot :)
Seems the general recomendation is "forget armour, just use spells". I am inclined to go with that, and I guess two rounds of buffing (shield, magearmour) will have to do.
But how to build him then, when I am not allowed to dip and have to finish all prestige classes?
I am guessing pala2/sorc6 - but it feels like such a long wait before I get into Abj champion.
What I am saying is; thanks for all your help so far, could you help out with builds as well? I got my stats handed to me and they are:
18 16 14 12 12 8 distributed as I'd like it :)
/Jacob - and thanks again.
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once you hit abjurant champion you will only need swift actions of shield. see if your DM will houserule mage armor to abjuration :P
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Or use the spell research rules to get them as abjuration.
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Arcane Preparation, CAr 73.
Use luminous armor, shield , and alter self [assuming Humanoid] into a Tren to get +27 to AC. Greater luminous armor instead gets 3 more AC. Also melee attacks against you get -4. That should be plenty to stop worry about AC and start worrying about miss chance and the like instead.
Also, since you're a Sorcerer, have you checked out all the goodies that Kobolds can get?
I know the image of a dude in heavy armor is pretty iconic for a paladin, but in my opinion, armor is mostly useful for putting spikes/enhancements onto (fortification mostly). Also you can turn your armor into a holy symbol if you want to look extra badass.
Additionally, consider getting some Runestaffs for things that you plan on only casting once per day, so you don't have to use spells known on them. I'll have to check the runestaff text, but it might be possible to use a runestaff containing luminous armor without a UMD check, which would save you a feat. Hell, even with a UMD check, you're gonna be pumping Cha anyway.
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I see people have already mentioned:
- Blended Quartz: -20%, 2,000 gp (light) or 5,000 gp (medium) or 10,000 gp (heavy), Arms and Equipment Guide
- Feycraft: -5%, 500 gp, Dungeon Master's guide II
- Mithral: -10%, 1,000 gp (light) or 4,000 gp (medium) or 9,000 gp (heavy), Dungeon Master's Guide
- Twilight: -10%, +1, Player's Handbook II
I'll add:
- Githcraft: -5%, 600 gp, Dungeon Master's guide II
- Thistledown Suit: -5%, 250 gp, Races of the Wild
A thistledown suit can be worn under any armor normally made of metal, provides -5% arcane spell failure chance for the armor it is worn under, and is cheaper than an other item that provides a similar benefit. Githcraft is 100 gp more expensive than feycraft, but may be worth it for the +1 to concentration checks it provides. It is possible for armor to be both githcraft and feycraft, but some DMs might object due to the fairly specific circumstances under which such armor could be made.
A mithral, feycraft chain shirt over a thistledown suit has no arcane spell failure chance and costs only 1,850 gp. Even if you do use spells for your armor bonus, you can still wear the shirt and use it to hold armor special abilities (as Emy said, though I don't suggest putting fortification on your armor unless you aren't allowed the gemstone of fortification from Draconomicon, page 83.)
If Oriental Adventures is allowed, feycraft or githcraft dastana and chahar-aina would also be nice.
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Once again thanks for all your help.
After reading all your ideas and suggestions, this is my thoughts.
2 pala levels bring the following to the table:
+Cha to saves, 2 bab, flavour.
I loose
2 caster levels, 1spelllevel.
Am I really better off going straight Sorc, and forgetting about this Gish project? I have been trying some builds out, and I am not sure it's worth it in any way. Thanks for all your help.
/Jacob - disillusioned :)
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Really depends on what you want to play... straight sorcerer is better, but a paladin/sorcerer with abjurant champion is viable and makes a nice gish (and is a very fun build imho). Arcane preperation as mentioned above is a great way to use luminous armor.
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I had some questions about basically the same build about a year ago. Check it out. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7741.0) It has lots of useful advice on armor, spells and what not.
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Practiced Spellcaster feat. Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend (3000 gold). At 6th level, Extended Mage Armor = 12 hours. Two first level spell slots a day. You don't cast long duration buffs in combat
At higher levels, grab Greater Luminous Armor if you can, or Greater Mage Armor (Complete Arcane, 3rd level, +6 armor bonus to AC) if you can't.
Other good low level spells: True Strike and/or Wraithstrike. Great with Power Attack. Wraithstrike will be strictly better when you reach +6 BAB (so you'll want it by then), but True Strike can save your neck when you simply have to be able to hit something.
Another fun thing to do is get the Combust (2nd level) spell from SpC and a Spell Storing weapon. I don't see Spell Storing mentioned much for Gishes, but it's a +1 enhancement for basically an extra action every combat. I like it.
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You can have Spellstoring and Bloodstone on the same weapon, can't you?
Max'ed Vampiric Touch is boss.
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You can have Spellstoring and Bloodstone on the same weapon, can't you?
Max'ed Vampiric Touch is boss.
Yup, you can have Spellstoring, Bloodstone, Smiting Spell, Spellsword Channeling, and Duskblade Channeling all on the same attack. And then Arcane Strike.
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Still Spell Metamagic Rods are my preferred method of mid-level sorcadins. Its use-activated, so you don't even need to be holding them to use them. Just have the rod in your backpack.
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Still Spell Metamagic Rods
Do these actually exist RAW? Could not find them.
Anyway, metamagic rods require you to wield them: The wielder can cast up to three spells per day ...
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Wield does not mean hold. Thought they did exist, RAW.
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Wield does not mean hold. Thought they did exist, RAW.
It is correct that wield does not mean hold. Sorcerers are perfectly capable of wielding a rod in their pants.
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DMG:
Use Activated: This type of item simply has to be used in order
to activate it. A character has to drink a potion, swing a sword,
interpose a shield to deflect a blow in combat, look through a lens,
sprinkle dust, wear a ring, or don a hat. Use activation is generally
straightforward and self-explanatory.
I think the most straightforward and self-explanatory action one can do with a metamagic rod is to hold it in your hand, point it at the target and blast away. If using metamagic rods as butt plugs is the first thing that comes to your mind, ... :)
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I do not believe that you can use a MM rod you have in your haversack.
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Also, don't forget the Swiftblade. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327)
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I think the most straightforward and self-explanatory action one can do with a metamagic rod is to hold it in your hand, point it at the target and blast away. If using metamagic rods as butt plugs is the first thing that comes to your mind, ... :)
Also in the SRD. I think the most straightforward and self-explanatory action one can do with a metamagic rod is to cast a spell, and use the command thought to use a charge, and it be on your person, even in your backpack (maybe not in your handy haversack; idk, its another dimension, right?). So each DM is left to decide, maybe.
I say maybe b/c I haven't done an extensive search through Sage or through the Rules Compendium on it.
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Wield does not mean hold. Thought they did exist, RAW.
It is correct that wield does not mean hold. Sorcerers are perfectly capable of wielding a rod in their pants.
Just like a fighter can wield a greatsword in his ants or what?
Wield. (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/wield)
The very definition of wielding implies an activity. I would rule against wielding something without at least getting it out of your backpack and holding it.
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You missed the joke.
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Just like a fighter can wield a greatsword in his ants or what?
Wield. (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/wield)
The very definition of wielding implies an activity. I would rule against wielding something without at least getting it out of your backpack and holding it.
Feel free to rule it that way.
Another part of Use-Activated: Many use-activated items are objects that a character wears. Continually functioning items are practically always items that one wears. A few must simply be in the character’s possession (on his person). However, some items made for wearing must still be activated. Although this activation sometimes requires a command word, usually it means mentally willing the activation to happen. The description of an item states whether a command word is needed in such a case.
There's no description under metamagic rods, though, but I don't see here where it says the rod needs to be anywhere but on his person in his pants.
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Grrrrrr
Thanks for all your help. Sadly my GM informed me, that paladin won't fit in to the campaign and he'd would like me to play a rogueish character (better to fit into the theme and feel of the game).
This leaves me at square 1. Any ideas on how to make a level 5 "rogue type" character, with low magicitems and no ToB and UA?
/Jacob - starting from scratch.
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Do a Beguiler.
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Not terribly optimised, but a Shadowbane Inquisitor is both Roguish and a Paladin.
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Be a factotum.
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There's no description under metamagic rods, though, but I don't see here where it says the rod needs to be anywhere but on his person in his pants.
Yes, but surely you'd want that slot taken up by a Rod of Lordly Might? I mean, just for the battering-ram function alone.
"I can knock down doors with mine. How 'bout you?"
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Master spellthief!
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monk :D
try Expert.
tons of skills. convince the dm that as a 'npc' class you have a natural ability to seem irrelevant to characters with proper pc classes, and are more easily accepted by other npc's.
we need an expert handbook.
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chameleon. not sure what would be the best entry for you since you don't have access to tier 1 classes.
factotum is good usually. Might be able to factotum3/swashbuckler3 then enter.
Maybe human factotum (able learner feat), paladin4(getting turning and charisma to saves)/chameleonx.
Playing around with entry into chameleon can get you a lot of awesome front loaded abilities before you enter and then you get to use all those abilities along with the super adaptability of chameleon.
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Do a Beguiler.
Master spellthief!
Master Spellthief Beguiler Mindbender Shadowcraft Mage Pixie Ghost Hood?
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Do a Beguiler.
Master spellthief!
Master Spellthief Beguiler Mindbender Shadowcraft Mage Pixie Ghost Hood?
+1. Then you can not just do the beguilers, but do their whole families, too.
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Yes, but surely you'd want that slot taken up by a Rod of Lordly Might? I mean, just for the battering-ram function alone.
"I can knock down doors with mine. How 'bout you?"
...and just like that I've got my next caster idea...
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Yes, but surely you'd want that slot taken up by a Rod of Lordly Might? I mean, just for the battering-ram function alone.
"I can knock down doors with mine. How 'bout you?"
...and just like that I've got my next caster idea...
...the Schlongomancer?