Brilliant Gameologists Forum

The Thinktank => Min/Max It! => Topic started by: charleskoz on October 17, 2010, 01:07:10 PM

Title: Trying to do too much? :)
Post by: charleskoz on October 17, 2010, 01:07:10 PM
Our party got wiped and is starting over. I have the "skillmonkey" role and decided I want to try Beguiler (as I tried Scout before and didn't care for it much).

But I also want to be a pixie, with the 4 LA.

And I also want to do psionics. :)

My DM is of the opinion that even using something like Cerebromancer, I am going to end up spreading myself so thin that at the high levels I will be weak -- I won't have access to the highest level spells/powers and will fall behind the rest of the party. This does make some sense... if I took 3 levels in Beguiler, 3 in Psion and 10 in Cerebromancer, that would still be just level 13 in each of two paths.

What do you think?
Title: Re: Trying to do too much? :)
Post by: Dragonamedrake on October 17, 2010, 01:34:10 PM
I agree with your DM. A focused beguiler can be very fun but its feat intensive and like any caster becomes less effective if you loose to many caster lvls.

If you interested in utility and being a catch all try a shadowcraft mage. There is a beguiler build for one in the handbook. With shadow magic your going to have access to spells that can mimic most powers anyways.

Here is the handbook. http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5638.0 (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5638.0)
Title: Re: Trying to do too much? :)
Post by: jameswilliamogle on October 17, 2010, 01:46:11 PM
Dump the Pixie.  Its too much LA, unless you get it for free.  Pixies work best with Rogues / Scout types, but the Beguiler doesn't work as well with it.  Gnome Beguilers are really awesome, though - you would not believe how often that Hide bonus helps you boost your DCs directly.
Title: Re: Trying to do too much? :)
Post by: Maat_Mons on October 17, 2010, 01:53:55 PM
If you want to be a spontaneous casting pixie, sylph seems the way to go.  Sylph are from Monster Manual II and were assigned an LA in the 3.5 update booklet.  They have 3 racial HD (outsider), +5 LA, casting as a 7th level sorcerer, improved invisibility at will, fly speed 90 feet, small size, -2 str, +2 dex, -2 con, +4 int, +6 wis, +6 cha.  If you take sorcerer levels, you add them to your racial sorcerer casting, so you're only 1 level behind on casting. 
Title: Re: Trying to do too much? :)
Post by: charleskoz on October 17, 2010, 03:25:27 PM
I know I should dump the pixie but.. it's so cool. :)

I can't go sorceror instead of beguiler because I need something with trapfinding.
Title: Re: Trying to do too much? :)
Post by: jameswilliamogle on October 17, 2010, 04:11:59 PM
How about half-fey instead?
Title: Re: Trying to do too much? :)
Post by: Sinfire Titan on October 17, 2010, 04:24:37 PM
Dump Pixie and ask your DM if you can adapt the Ultimate Magus PrC to Spontaneous/Psionic advancement instead of Prepared/Spontaneous.


Pixie may seem cool, but the only thing it does better than Beguiler or Psion is Tiny size (you have spells to make yourself invisible).

I mean, which would you rather have? -4 levels to play with in exchange for Invisibility/Flight/Tiny Size or 4 more levels of a Spellcasting/Manifesting class that gives you the exact same deal (Compression can give you Tiny size via EK). You may be using daily resources to get those effects, but at the same time you will have more daily resources because you have 4 more levels than the Pixie version.
Title: Re: Trying to do too much? :)
Post by: ninjarabbit on October 17, 2010, 04:31:15 PM
How about a psionic rogue?

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b
Title: Re: Trying to do too much? :)
Post by: charleskoz on October 17, 2010, 04:45:00 PM
I considered the psychic rogue at one point, but the PP numbers are low and a limit of 5th level powers is uninspiring. I was afraid I'd end up being locked into the usual rogue sneak attack mode, and I'm not a big fan of that.

I will take a look at Ultimate Magus.

Invisibility, small size and flight are not small things IMO. Yes, I can do those with spells/powers, but not having to do so allows me to do many other things instead with those slots.

The ability boosts are also not insignificant. The +6 to int alone is worth a +3 on ALL spell DCs, which many players would consider quite valuable. And +8 to dex also kinda speaks for itself.

Spell resistance and damage reduction are nothing to sneeze at either.

I think it's worth the 4 levels, but I have to use the other 16 wisely.

I was thinking about maybe hand-crafting a "psionic Beguiler", but I don't think illusions really have a psionic counterpart so that might not work.

Another option would be to mostly stick with beguiler and dip into Ardent, in combination with practiced manifester. But that's also a compromise.
Title: Re: Trying to do too much? :)
Post by: Maat_Mons on October 17, 2010, 04:48:51 PM
I can't go sorceror instead of beguiler because I need something with trapfinding.

You can get trapfinding from a feat.  Planar touchstone, from Planar Handbook, page 41, lets you forge a link with a planar touchstone, gaining an ability that varies based on which touchstone you select.  If you select Catalogues of Enlightenment, from Planar Handbook, page 166, you gain the granted power of a domain of your choice.  If you select the kobold domain (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a), from the Races of the Dragon web enhancement, you gain trapfinding. 

Alternately, you could ask your if you can trade the sylph's innate sorcerer casting for innate beguiler casting.  You'd be trading down, so it'd be weird if he didn't allow it.  Then you can take levels in beguiler to advance your racial casting and gain trapfinding and good skills. 
Title: Re: Trying to do too much? :)
Post by: charleskoz on October 17, 2010, 04:50:50 PM
You can get trapfinding from a feat.
I know, but I can't in this campaign. We're restricted to a handful of books. If I could do that I'd just play straight psion most likely. ;)

I'll take a look at the sylph though, thanks.
Title: Re: Trying to do too much? :)
Post by: Shadowhunter on October 17, 2010, 04:56:27 PM
Why do I get the feeling that carnivore will at any second swoop in with some pixie build, even one that's just full casting deftly defying those LA, with his annoying formatting and his customary
Quote
....


 :D

Not that I dislike the dude, I really don't. I just can't shake the feeling that he'll arrive sooner or later.



Anyway, onto the topic:
Making a psionic version of the beguiler will take some effort and I'm not sure you'll end up with anything worth the trouble.
Title: Re: Trying to do too much? :)
Post by: Bauglir on October 17, 2010, 05:24:46 PM
If you want to be a spontaneous casting pixie, sylph seems the way to go.  Sylph are from Monster Manual II and were assigned an LA in the 3.5 update booklet.  They have 3 racial HD (outsider), +5 LA, casting as a 7th level sorcerer, improved invisibility at will, fly speed 90 feet, small size, -2 str, +2 dex, -2 con, +4 int, +6 wis, +6 cha.  If you take sorcerer levels, you add them to your racial sorcerer casting, so you're only 1 level behind on casting. 

Strictly speaking, they have sorcerer casting equal to their hit dice + 4. Wouldn't that stack no matter WHAT your class is?
Title: Re: Trying to do too much? :)
Post by: MrBumberdumble on October 21, 2010, 01:07:31 PM
Please delete

Posted in the wrong thread by accident.  My apologies.
Title: Re: Trying to do too much? :)
Post by: carnivore on October 21, 2010, 02:03:20 PM


ta da  :sofa .... i just say this .... you can do a lot with a Pixie, but a couple of questions first:

1)Is LA Buy off allowed, even though you will only be able to Buy Off 1 LA ... 17 Class lvls is better than 16 Class lvls

2)What Books are allowed?

3)what is the Starting Level?


you could try this:

Pixie
Beguiler 1/ Ardent 5/ Cerebremancer 3/ Virtuoso 1/ Sublime Chord 1/ Cerebremancer 6

even though it relies on Int and Wis .... the Pixie has enough to go around

Feats:
1st lvl: Versatile Spellcaster(Beguiler)
3rd lvl: Practiced Manifester(Ardent)
6th lvl: Heighten Spell
9th lvl: open ..... some useful Reserve Feat
12th lvl: Practiced Caster(Sublime Chord) or some useful reserve feat
15th lvl: Versatile Spellcaster(Sublime Chord)

9th lvl Sublime Chord spells
9th lvl Psionics


 :D
Title: Re: Trying to do too much? :)
Post by: thebigstupidfighter on October 21, 2010, 05:41:03 PM
Alternatively to taking levels in a psionic class, you could always be a Phrenic creature. You'd be behind from loss of HD due to Pixie, but it would drain you less than multiclassing, you can be a straight beguiler and have access to all the skill points and class abilities it offers, doing something like cerebremancer or hombrew Ultimate Magus won't offer you that, although its true spells can replace skills it doesn't sound to me like that's what you're looking to do here.
Title: Re: Trying to do too much? :)
Post by: fuinjutsu on October 22, 2010, 06:15:42 AM
Wasn't there something about how Phrenic + magic in the blood was awesome?
Title: Re: Trying to do too much? :)
Post by: spacemonkey555 on October 22, 2010, 06:53:53 AM
Wasn't there something about how Phrenic + magic in the blood was awesome?

Magic in the blood bumps the phrenic 1/day powers up to 3/day, but iirc theres a short list of allowed races and regions (fr regional feat), and pixie wasn't on the list.
Title: Re: Trying to do too much? :)
Post by: Epimetheus on October 22, 2010, 08:16:13 AM
Phrenic Pixie is overkill on the LA. Now that would be over-stretching things. It'd be stretching things enough that I'd allow Magic in the Blood just to see how poorly (or how well) a pixie 6 class levels behind the other PCs would do.
Title: Re: Trying to do too much? :)
Post by: jameswilliamogle on October 22, 2010, 11:58:26 AM
I always wanted to try a Phrenic Forest Gnome Magic-in-the-Blood Dragon Shaman with the Fey Heritage feats that also grant SLAs.  I think it'd be something like 30 SLAs per day at 20th.
Title: Re: Trying to do too much? :)
Post by: Rebel7284 on October 22, 2010, 12:24:14 PM
I also instantly thought of Phrenic Pixie and fast advancement classes.  Do tell us more about starting level and expected ending level though.
Title: Re: Trying to do too much? :)
Post by: PhaedrusXY on October 22, 2010, 12:36:47 PM
Killorien (sp?) Wizard 1/Psion 3/Cerebremancer 10/X?

Feats required: Precocious Apprentice (Alter Self), Assume Supernatural Ability or Metamorphic Transfer, the feat that lets you take 10 on caster level checks (I forget the name, and this can be traded out later in your career)

What it can do: Turn into a Pixie at level 1, gaining the flight and size. At level 6 (assuming you take MMTransfer), it can also use the Invisibility. It has full psion manifesting minus 1 level, and no level adjustment. I think if you use Assume Su Ability instead, you can even get the Invisibility at level 1.
Title: Re: Trying to do too much? :)
Post by: Maat_Mons on October 22, 2010, 04:55:00 PM
Killorien (sp?)

It's killoren (Races of the Wild 102).  Duskling (Magic of Incarnum 10), faun (Deities and Demigods 133), and jermlain (Monster Manual II 131) are also fey with +0 LA and no racial HD.  

the feat that lets you take 10 on caster level checks

It's arcane mastery (Complete Arcane 73).  Anyone looking it up should bear in mind there is errata saying you can take 10 even in stressful situations.  
Title: Re: Trying to do too much? :)
Post by: PlzBreakMyCampaign on October 23, 2010, 06:07:22 AM
Dump the Pixie.  Its too much LA
I know I should dump the pixie but..
Dump Pixie
See carn, I'm not crazy to have concluded pixies aren't optimal race selections. But Fun? Oh Hell yes.

Where were yall when I did my optimized races compendium  (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8884.0) :D

It's killoren (Races of the Wild 102).  Duskling (Magic of Incarnum 10), faun (Deities and Demigods 133), and jermlain (Monster Manual II 131) are also fey with +0 LA and no racial HD
Whoa can I get you to stop into that the above mentioned thread (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8884.0)?