Brilliant Gameologists Forum
The Thinktank => Min/Max It! => : Amechra August 18, 2010, 03:47:30 AM
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Crack open your copy of Complete Warrior to page 110.
Yes, you just saw the one feat that counters Powerchargers. Big time.
It's name is Elusive Target.
In exchange with having to take Dodge and Mobility, and having to be at least 6th level, you gain:
1. Apply your Dodge feat to someone to completely negate all extra damage from Power Attack from that person, leaving them with just penalties.
2. If you are flanked, apply your Dodge feat to one of the flankers; they now end up hitting the other flanker on their first attack.
3. You can get a free trip attempt against anyone who AoOs you for moving out of a threatened square and then misses.
The thing to remember is that you can apply your Dodge feat as part of any action; thus, you could use something that involves your Immediate Action to reassign your dodge feat to that idiot who just charged you.
I'm just wondering why I've never seen this feat on anyone before; sure it's situational, but PA comes up often, so...
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Can't afford the damned feats, and you're better off either getting out of the charge line or killing the charger first, anyway.
Only time I've ever seen it used was in a poor man's counterattacker setup that had to go with Karmic Strike instead of Robilar's Gambit, and went ahead and took it since he'd already blown a feat on one of the useless prerequisites, anyway.
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It's a decent feat for solo melee types(the anti-flanking) and "traditional" non-magic arena fights (thanks for the heedless charge!).
There were melee builds that used to use it. Then Tome of Battle came out and what few builds still used Fighter dried out fast.
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It's pretty decent, but the feat prereqs make it less interesting; it still isn't a no-brainer to take even if it didn't burn up a couple of extra feats. The real issue is the immediate action - options that let you interrupt the opponent tend to be able to disrupt their charge anyway (the dark cloak from Drow of the Underdark lets you dodge 10' and avoid all the damage, for example). If you have feats that already need dodge and mobility, you might pick it up.
It's quite useful for arena games, however, since flat, featureless arena planes are the native habitats of uberchargers.
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Maybe it's time for a build that optomizes Dodge? Not any of the variants, but plain old Dodge? What feats are there that help?
Titan-Fighting (in this case, almost necessitates a Gnome)
Elusive Target
What else?
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What the others said. This used to be seen more commonly. It would be something to consider on my "anti-charger" builds, but usually they can take quite a lot of punishment anyway, and they have Steadfast Boots, a reach weapon, and Combat Reflexes. So they can stab the bastard that charged them back, hard.
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It is neat for builds that would have the prerequisite feats anyway, like swiftblades.
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I've actually played with a friend who used a wicked Whisper Gnome Fighter 20 that abused the hell out of this feat, along with Gloom Razor and Confound the Big Folk and the Karmic Strike/Robilar's Lockdown Nonsense. He basically moved into an enemy's square for a few turns and proceeded to rape him/her. The enemy really couldn't do anything without getting screwed. He couldn't attack effectively(cover+Gloom Razor+Karmic/Robilar's). He couldn't move (Thicket of Blades martial stance+Stand Still). He couldn't do nothing either (Defensive Sweep).
Now he's remaking this character in Gestalt. With levels of Knight, so that enemies have to attack him while he's in an enemy's square. So he would basically get other enemies to gang-rape his target for him and trigger his Gloom Razor for free if they miss. :bigeye
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I'm just wondering why I've never seen this feat on anyone before; sure it's situational, but PA comes up often, so...
They bring it up at the Den semi-often (at least Roy does). I think weenog hit the nail on the head though, because three feats is pretty expensive. It'd be great with less steep prereqs.
Although, I think a lot of it depends on how the DM runs games. This feat would be nice for the monsters if there's a charger in the group; however, if the DM doesn't have the monsters Power Attack too often, then the feat isn't that useful for the PC.
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I kind of like the counter charge maneuver (setting sun 1). As an immediate action when someone charges you, you force an opposed strength or dexterity check (your choice), and if you win, his entire charge is wasted with no effect.
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IF I wanted one of the Dodge variants anyway for some reason - like Midnight Dodge for the situational bonus and free Essentia... AND had the armor enhancement to get Mobility already, then I could possibly see some utility in this. Otherwise, there are just easier ways to accomplish similar effects published after this one.
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All of what you've said is true.
I guess I could extrapolate my question to: Why don't we see more tactical feats?
And then I remember most of them suck.
Oh, and another, very useless, feat to boost dodge is that one Combat Form feat.
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All of what you've said is true.
I guess I could extrapolate my question to: Why don't we see more tactical feats?
And then I remember most of them suck.
Oh, and another, very useless, feat to boost dodge is that one Combat Form feat.
I'm pretty sure I saw some sort of build with Confound the Big Folk and Giantbane in it... Something about a killer something or other...
Also I've seen Woodland Archer in quite a few builds. Only PBS which is a prereq for lots of stuff.
Also, SHOCKTROOPER? COMBAT BRUTE???
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I said MORE of tactical feats.
I am quite aware of all the ones that you name.
(Damn, I really should have said most suck, not all of them. I really should look over what I write before I post.)
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I've actually played with a friend who used a wicked Whisper Gnome Fighter 20 that abused the hell out of this feat, along with Gloom Razor and Confound the Big Folk and the Karmic Strike/Robilar's Lockdown Nonsense. He basically moved into an enemy's square for a few turns and proceeded to rape him/her. The enemy really couldn't do anything without getting screwed. He couldn't attack effectively(cover+Gloom Razor+Karmic/Robilar's). He couldn't move (Thicket of Blades martial stance+Stand Still). He couldn't do nothing either (Defensive Sweep).
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Fuck, now I want to make this character. I've been toying w/ a gnome Titan Fighting, Underfoot Combat tank for a while now.
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Why in Godzilla's name would you have both Karmic Strike and Robilar's Gambit? A single opportunity only provokes a single AoO no matter how many conditions it meets for provoking. Waste of feats to double up like that.
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Because some DMs don't run it that way, presumably. You're right about RAW though - and that's how I'd run it as well.
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Probably means he can't remember which...
(Double Hit ftw!)
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Well, I can see having both being situationally useful. Maybe. I'd still only take the one, though.
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Why in Godzilla's name would you have both Karmic Strike and Robilar's Gambit? A single opportunity only provokes a single AoO no matter how many conditions it meets for provoking. Waste of feats to double up like that.
It's actually two separate opportunities. Robilar's Gambit provokes when your opponent declares an attack. You slap him/her/it. Karmic Strike provokes when they hit you. You slap him/her/it again. So you get one attack if they miss, two if they hit.
Edit: To clarify, "attacking" is different than "hitting" in this case. Check the texts from CW and PHBII if you don't believe me. I'm AFB, but I'm fairly certain, so if someone could post the text to confirm, your Aid Another would be much appreciated.
Of course, you need to fight one opponent at a time, have an absurdly high DEX (that Fighter 20 build did), or have a way of productively forgoing AoO's (Stormguard Warrior, Elusive Reflexes, etc.).
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Why in Godzilla's name would you have both Karmic Strike and Robilar's Gambit? A single opportunity only provokes a single AoO no matter how many conditions it meets for provoking. Waste of feats to double up like that.
It's actually two separate opportunities. Robilar's Gambit provokes when your opponent declares an attack. You slap him/her/it. Karmic Strike provokes when they hit you. You slap him/her/it again. So you get one attack if they miss, two if they hit.
No, it's not. It's one opportunity, they make a melee attack against you, with one provoking condition having the additional qualifier that the attack has to connect. Oh, and neither one of them comes before the attack that triggered them, unlike normal AoOs, errata fixed that.
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Why in Godzilla's name would you have both Karmic Strike and Robilar's Gambit? A single opportunity only provokes a single AoO no matter how many conditions it meets for provoking. Waste of feats to double up like that.
It's actually two separate opportunities. Robilar's Gambit provokes when your opponent declares an attack. You slap him/her/it. Karmic Strike provokes when they hit you. You slap him/her/it again. So you get one attack if they miss, two if they hit.
No, it's not. It's one opportunity, they make a melee attack against you, with one provoking condition having the additional qualifier that the attack has to connect. Oh, and neither one of them comes before the attack that triggered them, unlike normal AoOs, errata fixed that.
If you are correct (and I'm unsure if I am correct as I'm AFB), then please post the relevant text to clarify for the boards, as I've seen this come up many a time, The King of Smack builds being the most notorious.
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No. If you've seen this come up many a time, in heavily scrutinized builds like the King of Smack, you've already seen the RAW counters, and chosen to ignore them or you wouldn't be putting forth the idea that you can do it now. I'm not going through the hassle of re-acquiring the relevant errata files and rules clarifications to type up a big chunk of copy for you to ignore again.
Do your own research.
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Maybe it's time for a build that optomizes Dodge? Not any of the variants, but plain old Dodge? What feats are there that help?
Titan-Fighting (in this case, almost necessitates a Gnome)
Elusive Target
What else?
Time to find the Dancing with Shadows Duelist build...which is Kalastar only. Still, a tricked up Combat expertise is recommended here.
No. If you've seen this come up many a time, in heavily scrutinized builds like the King of Smack, you've already seen the RAW counters, and chosen to ignore them or you wouldn't be putting forth the idea that you can do it now. I'm not going through the hassle of re-acquiring the relevant errata files and rules clarifications to type up a big chunk of copy for you to ignore again.
Do your own research.
Just use Double Hit and Robilar's Gambit. Smaller feat investment. Only 4 feats with Gloves of the Balanced Hand. And none of the feats are worthless.
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No. If you've seen this come up many a time, in heavily scrutinized builds like the King of Smack, you've already seen the RAW counters, and chosen to ignore them or you wouldn't be putting forth the idea that you can do it now. I'm not going through the hassle of re-acquiring the relevant errata files and rules clarifications to type up a big chunk of copy for you to ignore again.
Do your own research.
Actually, I just combed through both the PHBII and CW errata and there's no mention whatsoever of either Karmic Strike or Robilar's Gambit.
Errata: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a)
Karmic Strike text: http://wiki.rpg.net/index.php/3.5_L5R_Kiho (http://wiki.rpg.net/index.php/3.5_L5R_Kiho) (Best I could find)
Robilar's Gambit: http://www.realmshelps.org/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Robilar~s_Gambit (http://www.realmshelps.org/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Robilar~s_Gambit)
And perusing through the texts online (which seem accurate to me, they look the same as the text from my PHBII and CW), Robilar's provokes when your opponent attacks, and takes effect after the attack, and Karmic Strike's provokes when they actually hit you, but takes effect simultaneously with the enemy's attack. It doesn't stop your enemy from hitting you, but you still get to slap him twice after he hits you.
I did my own research and, as far as I can tell, by RAW, my (slightly revised) interpretation is perfectly legal. If I am still missing something, please enlighten me.
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So back on topic Amechra:
I personally know this is old news back form 339, but if you are that pumped about Elusive Target I'll give you a few more things to check out:
Midnight Dodge, Temerad Mastery I, and one of the Planartouch stone location allows you to target different opponents and all count as dodging them. So if you come up with some reasonable build it can target four opponents.
Actually I think with the wording on Temerad Mastery I that you can target five since it would apply to both Midnight and normal Dodge.
Secondly: Word Given Form. From the Tome of Magic, and the only decent thing truenaming has given us. It's not a feat, it's a Martial arts style meaning you just gain it when you met the pre-reqs at level 9. You keep your AC bonus vs an opponet you are dodging, but also gain a 50% miss chance.
Edit: Ah! I went looking but I couldn't find it. I was sure there is some Monk-eqse feat that when an opponent misses you due to dodge you get to make a trip attack and toss him in some direction, but for the life of me I can not find it.
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I've actually played with a friend who used a wicked Whisper Gnome Fighter 20 that abused the hell out of this feat, along with Gloom Razor and Confound the Big Folk and the Karmic Strike/Robilar's Lockdown Nonsense. He basically moved into an enemy's square for a few turns and proceeded to rape him/her. The enemy really couldn't do anything without getting screwed. He couldn't attack effectively(cover+Gloom Razor+Karmic/Robilar's). He couldn't move (Thicket of Blades martial stance+Stand Still). He couldn't do nothing either (Defensive Sweep).
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Fuck, now I want to make this character. I've been toying w/ a gnome Titan Fighting, Underfoot Combat tank for a while now.
Just playing with the concept, I got:
Jungle Dwarf (Small size, Poison Use, no listed STR penalty) Fighter 2/Wolf Totem Barbarian 1/Stoneblessed (Gnome) 3/Gnome Giant-Slayer 10/Warblade 4. Feats: 1st - Martial Study (Distracting Ember), Desert Wind Dodge; 2nd - Mobility; 3rd - Combat Reflexes; 6th - Spring Attack; 9th - Combat Expertise; 12th - Karmic Strike; 15th - Robilar's Gambit; 18th - Defensive Sweep. Didn't fit in the OP's Elusive Target though.
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Spring Attack is terrible, so you may as well dump it.
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Spring Attack is terrible, so you may as well dump it.
Required for Gnome Giant-Slayer. Dumping it without gaining it in some other fashion defeats the point of the build.
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Actually, how's Spring Attack for super-skirmishing shadowdancers? You can after all, hide as a part of a move... and stealth is superior to invisibility in that it's not negated by true seeing or see invisibility.
Let me check my books... (ooh, savvy rogue+opportunist is awesome when flanking).
( ooh, hidden blade + persistent attacker = sneak attack with every spring attack, even if they know you're coming. Expensive SA-wise, but if you have Crippling Strike, f'r ex... )
( The Sacred Blacksmith is TOTALLY using Greater Shadow Conjuration. )
In any case, there are some classes that require dodge and mobility.
Duelist,
Shadowdancer,
Elocater - also Spring Attack
Combat Medic requires dodge AND gains Mobility.
Dread Commando requires both Dodge and Mobility (and synergizes with the 2-level Shadowdancer dip)
What else? I could already see a Hidden Talent Soulknife 1/shadowdancer 2/dread commando 5/War Mind 2/elocater 10 build, would probably even be fun.
*edit*
Oh, and Swiftblade.
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So back on topic Amechra:
I personally know this is old news back form 339, but if you are that pumped about Elusive Target I'll give you a few more things to check out:
Midnight Dodge, Temerad Mastery I, and one of the Planartouch stone location allows you to target different opponents and all count as dodging them. So if you come up with some reasonable build it can target four opponents.
Actually I think with the wording on Temerad Mastery I that you can target five since it would apply to both Midnight and normal Dodge.
Secondly: Word Given Form. From the Tome of Magic, and the only decent thing truenaming has given us. It's not a feat, it's a Martial arts style meaning you just gain it when you met the pre-reqs at level 9. You keep your AC bonus vs an opponet you are dodging, but also gain a 50% miss chance.
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Is there any way to gain multiple dodge buddies w/out using Dragon Magazine material? My research turned up none, but I figured I'd ask.
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Didn't fit in the OP's Elusive Target though.
Just use flaws. If you're desparate for feats, nothing beats flaws.
If you can't use those, drop 2 levels of Warblade for Psychic Warrior. The powers are fairly worthless, unless you can get a reversed Expansion (Reduction?), but you get 2 bonus feats from the fighter list (others too), and nothing beats those. Actually, dropping 2 more Warblade levels would let you dip 2 in Crusader for Thicket of Blades to fuck with people some more if you can get reach somehow. Also, I noticed the lack of Confound the Bigfolk and Titan Fighting (unless the Giant-slayer grants them somehow).
Edit: Whoops! Caught up in that quote there. Fixed now.
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Is there any way to gain multiple dodge buddies w/out using Dragon Magazine material? My research turned up none, but I figured I'd ask.
The Rokugan Ninja class, but that's 3rd party...
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Is there any way to gain multiple dodge buddies w/out using Dragon Magazine material? My research turned up none, but I figured I'd ask.
I'm sure there's an item that does it, somewhere... I'm thinking some sort of Underdark or Scoundrel book...
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Didn't fit in the OP's Elusive Target though.
Just use flaws. If you're desparate for feats, nothing beats flaws.
If you can't use those, drop 2 levels of Warblade for Psychic Warrior. The powers are fairly worthless, unless you can get a reversed Expansion (Reduction?), but you get 2 bonus feats from the fighter list (others too), and nothing beats those. Actually, dropping 2 more Warblade levels would let you dip 2 in Crusader for Thicket of Blades to fuck with people some more if you can get reach somehow. Also, I noticed the lack of Confound the Bigfolk and Titan Fighting (unless the Giant-slayer grants them somehow).
Edit: Whoops! Caught up in that quote there. Fixed now.
It grants Titan Fighting. I'd definitely advocate Flaws to fit in Confound the Bigfolk & Elusive Target if allowed, as well.
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Is there any way to gain multiple dodge buddies w/out using Dragon Magazine material? My research turned up none, but I figured I'd ask.
Only one feat I mentioned is Dragon Magazine (Temerad Mastery I), the rest are from various sources books published by WotC.
Magic Incarnum, Planarhandbook, Tome of Magic.
Alot of DMs rule that the Swashbucklers Dodge Bonus counts as dodge as well, but that is strictly a House Rule.
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Is there any way to gain multiple dodge buddies w/out using Dragon Magazine material? My research turned up none, but I figured I'd ask.
Only one feat I mentioned is Dragon Magazine (Temerad Mastery I), the rest are from various sources books published by WotC.
Magic Incarnum, Planarhandbook, Tome of Magic.
Alot of DMs rule that the Swashbucklers Dodge Bonus counts as dodge as well, but that is strictly a House Rule.
Well, yeah, but only one of them, Temerad Mastery, actually adds a dodge buddy. The Monastery of Zerth (Planar Handbook page 163, the touchstone location I assume you were referring to) gives you a dodge bonus, but it doesn't necessarily trigger the feat, which is what I was looking for in order to get more mileage out of Titan Fighting.
I suppose the Ninja one will work. Honestly, I don't think it'd be that hard a sell to let some of those abilities give me extra dodge buddies, but given that I'm considering a build to exploit it I wanted to see what non-house ruled backing there was.
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You went searching through all the Touchstones and didn't bother to glance are Midnight dodge (http://www.realmshelps.org/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Midnight_Dodge)? I'm hurt.
Special: Midnight Dodge can be used in place of the Dodge feat to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other special ability.
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You went searching through all the Touchstones and didn't bother to glance are Midnight dodge (http://www.realmshelps.org/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Midnight_Dodge)? I'm hurt.
Special: Midnight Dodge can be used in place of the Dodge feat to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other special ability.
No, I knew exactly what Midnight Dodge did before you mentioned. Or so I thought. B/c I just re-read it at your prompting, and those bolded words sell me on it completely.
So, mea culpa.
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Combat defense allows you to change your dodge target as an immediate action
Edit-Things like Desert Wind Dodge and Expeditous dodge count as dodge but don't target. They might be able to work.
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reversed Expansion (Reduction?)
Compression (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/compression.htm).
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reversed Expansion (Reduction?)
Compression (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/compression.htm).
Doh. :banghead
I've always relied on Expansion for so many BC Psywar builds that I forgot Compression existed.