Brilliant Gameologists Forum
The Thinktank => Min/Max It! => : lans August 16, 2010, 02:09:38 AM
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This is inspired by the old Lockdown thread where they had a fighter that could give most wizards(the ones that weren't at the optimization level of wearing shrunken Obduriam tophats) a run for its cool.
How would a Wizard fair against a Fighter and Wizard 2 levels lower than himself? Or a party 4 levels lower.
Pretty sure at 3-6,17 & 18 the one that's 2 higher will win.
At 5th the pair should have enough defenses to not be one shoted.
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I hope you're not talking about Aelryinth's lockdown fighter. That build had more holes than a cheese grater. Even with the 15 or so additional free feats he was granting himself, it didn't work.
If it's a different lockdown build, got a link? I'd like to see a working one.
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I am, it looked pretty decent against unoptimized mages. But I am going from memory, so I maybe exaggerating parts that may have been small aspects in importance, but big in sticking out in my mind.
Like him giving the fighter twice the feats it should have is probably more important than the Wizards Obduriam top hat solution.
That and the Druids elemental companion doing about as well as the fighter in this role.
I thought it was at least good enough that the wizard couldn't completely ignore him, which is where the other character came in.
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It depends on what level, if the Wizard is level 10 and the party is 4 lower then the Wiz will probably lose because of the action economy. At level 20 the Wizard has more options to split the party and neutralize the action imbalance. When facing the archetypal party SoDs aren't as reliably because someone will have a high save for each spell and one party member can try and deal with the battlefield control leaving the other 3 to play around.
This is assuming that neither side is spaming the game breaking stuff like contact other plane.
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I am, it looked pretty decent against unoptimized mages. But I am going from memory, so I maybe exaggerating parts that may have been small aspects in importance, but big in sticking out in my mind.
Fireball the lockdown fighter from +800 feet up in the air. Done.
When your build can be defeated by level 3 spells, you know it's weak.
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One of these days I need to see a knock down drag out between an Aelryinth fighter, a Giacomo monk, and a Solo parody truenamer.
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Truenamer wins.
Because he can gate in a Solar.
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Truenamer wins.
Because he can gate in a Solar.
What if the monk UMDs a wand of Nerveskitter and a wand of Gate and gates in a Solar first? :shock
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Well, firstly, you can't have a wand of gate...
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Well, firstly, you can't have a wand of gate...
i think it's a pun, since giacomo once thought you CAN make wands of higher than 4th level. but who am i telling that?^^
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I am, it looked pretty decent against unoptimized mages. But I am going from memory, so I maybe exaggerating parts that may have been small aspects in importance, but big in sticking out in my mind.
Fireball the lockdown fighter from +800 feet up in the air. Done.
When your build can be defeated by level 3 spells, you know it's weak.
I would of thought it would of had an item for that, like boots of flight or something. But that might just be me not paying attention to details.
So I'm taking the wizards use of shrunken obduriam tophats were completely unnecessary then?
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It depends on what level, if the Wizard is level 10 and the party is 4 lower then the Wiz will probably lose because of the action economy cast Evard's Black Tentacles and laugh as they all die.
FTFY
The wizard can also cast Celerity at this point. So if he can survive long enough to not be flat-footed, he'll likely win.
If the party he's facing is only 2 levels lower, then their wizard can also cast Celerity and EBTs, so it's a closer contest.
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At any level the two levels behind fighter & wizard team comes out ahead.
Examples
Level 1 vs 3: The lower level greases the other wizard and the fighter rapes him, counter point would be the wizard save or sucks the other wizard and fails the follow up afterwards, either the fighter made him self useful, the wizard made his save, or the fighter died so the player can roll up a better character. It doesn't matter.
Level 5 vs 7: The bad wizard can black tentacles the area, so split up. Like before, the second guy lays the smack down while the first is getting dealt with. You could always aim for the bad wizard casting on an illusion and the fighter still dies for some reason if you like.
Level 7 vs 9: The wizard now has black tentacles and a fighter to die ahead of him so the bad wizard cannot celerity again that round.
And so on. Even if the bad wizard were to Time Stop for minions you can just sacrifice the fighter while the teamed up wizard's minions chase down the bad wizard.
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It depends on what level, if the Wizard is level 10 and the party is 4 lower then the Wiz will probably lose because of the action economy.
The action economy does hurt, but he also can quicken spells, which might be useful on that first round.
Phaedrus is right about EBT. Solid Fog, Couldkill, Glitterdust, and a lot of the other good Conjurations can really slow down that group. Plus, their saves are four levels behind and they have fewer HP, so stuff like EBT can actually be pretty scary.
Of course, it comes down pretty quickly to Initiative. If several of the party members go first, that wizard could be in trouble. In the wizard's defense, he does have more resources to blow on boosting his Init mod, though.
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I would of thought it would of had an item for that, like boots of flight or something. But that might just be me not paying attention to details.
Dispel Magic is also a third level spell.
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It depends on what level, if the Wizard is level 10 and the party is 4 lower then the Wiz will probably lose because of the action economy cast Evard's Black Tentacles and laugh as they all die.
FTFY
The wizard can also cast Celerity at this point. So if he can survive long enough to not be flat-footed, he'll likely win.
If the party he's facing is only 2 levels lower, then their wizard can also cast Celerity and EBTs, so it's a closer contest.
The party has two lower-level spellcasters in it of course, and at level 10 you are probably not going to have a way to not be caught flatfooted to use celerity at whim, or negate the dazed condition. Both Wizards will probably have nerveskitter prepared, maybe have improved initiative, the Cleric might have a sign up, the Rogue probably has a really high dex and maybe improved initiative. So the solo Wizard is going to get 1 roll for initiative and his OpFor is going to get 4, so even with (potentially smaller) modifiers someone in the party is probably going to go first.
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so even with (potentially smaller) modifiers someone in the party is probably going to go first.
And they have to be able to kill or incapacitate the wizard in one round, who is 4 levels higher than them, for that to matter. So a lot of it comes down to pre-cast buffs, and specifics of the encounter set-up.
Look at it this way: Since we're talking about a party facing off vs. a solo character 4 levels higher than them, do you think that a wizard 10 is an appropriate challenge for a 6th level party? Even the DMG guidelines say this is asking for a TPK, and I think we all know that wizards, with even moderate optimization, are above what their CR indicates as far as power level.
What are the 6th level guys going to do to incapacitate or kill the wizard in one round? Because on his turn, he casts Greater Invis (shared with his familiar), then Celerity (which he also shares with his familiar), and then drops an Evard's Black Tentacles on as many of the party as he can catch in it. If he has Heart of Water up, he doesn't even care if he hits himself with it, either. His familiar readies an action to use a wand if he's attacked, or dumps a Stinking Cloud on the already struggling party, or something else that's nasty.
He is also likely flying around via Alter Self, Overland Flight, etc. And he could also have a Teleport prepped, and decide to come back and kill them after he's buffed the crap out of himself and/or summoned some allies. He could also be walking around in the body of a troll or something via Magic Jar.
Most of that is core also, and not using totally over-the-top TO stuff like shrunken pools of acid/magma/contact poison. Or Contact Other Plane.
So I think the wiz 10 has a very good chance of stomping the 6th level party. It's not a sure thing, but I think he has the odds, unless the party is specifically built around taking out higher level casters, and optimized well for it.
Against a party 2 levels lower, the wizard likely loses most of the time. Against a pair 2 levels lower, it will probably be fairly even.
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I like the flying part.
Lil Wiz casts + Fighter charges , both in range = some damage
Big Wiz draws 1 OA + Flies off
... uh-oh already.
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I don't see how a party of 4 wouldn't completely blow away any single class character ever (wizard or not) given an even optimization footing, even granting the single character 4 bonus levels.
4 Pun-Puns > 1 Pun-Pun
4 Highly Theoretical RAW Non Pun-Puns > 1 Highly Theoretical RAW Non Pun-Pun with some levels
4 Just Under Theoretical but Extreme RAW Optimization Characters > 1 Just Under Theoretical but Extreme RAW Optimization Character with some levels
4 RAW+RAI Optimized Characters > 1 RAW+RAI Optimized Character with some levels
4 Sub-Optimized Characters Played By Baddies ??? 1 Sub-Optimized Character Played By Baddy with some levels
Choose your destiny. I'm not positive about the last case. 4 bad characters are probably worse than 1 bad character with 4 extra levels because there are 4 of them; they've made 4x the bad choices in character building and then go on to make 4 sub-optimal, bad choices every round whereas the other character only makes 1 bad choice which is 4 levels stronger in spite of themselves.
In a party of 4, something as simple and non-theoretical as Marshall gives everyone a huge initiative boost without going into extremes of RAW or optimization starting from level 1. The party of 4, in all cases, will have more actions and higher average initiative, given the same optimization level, because there are 4 of them. You can sacrifice 1 or even 2 of them simply for party buffage, meatshieldery, and readied actions. Having 2-3 party members ready actions to interrupt casting/counterspell/dispel while 1-2 party members actively go after 1 character can be very effective when you're playing *actual* D&D and not *theoretical* D&D. You have far more options than any single character can have.
The 2 man party 2 levels lower is iffy. They can't sacrifice even 1 of them purely for buffs as each of them is weaker than 1 character with 4 bonus levels. They don't *automatically* have better average initiative. Readying actions to interrupt or counterspell takes 50% of their actions instead of 25% for the smaller group. The opportunity cost is very high for just about everything they do. Additionally, the 4 man party can force 4 saves - that's 4+ chances for a Nat 1 on the opposing team. Not only that but they have 4x the ability to Nat 20 on hits or saves. The group of 2 is just plain weaker in all respects.
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All of that neglects to take into account that the higher level a primary spellcaster is, the more options it has for making opponents' actions completely worthless.
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so even with (potentially smaller) modifiers someone in the party is probably going to go first.
And they have to be able to kill or incapacitate the wizard in one round, who is 4 levels higher than them, for that to matter. So a lot of it comes down to pre-cast buffs, and specifics of the encounter set-up.
Look at it this way: Since we're talking about a party facing off vs. a solo character 4 levels higher than them, do you think that a wizard 10 is an appropriate challenge for a 6th level party? Even the DMG guidelines say this is asking for a TPK, and I think we all know that wizards, with even moderate optimization, are above what their CR indicates as far as power level.
If we have both sides prebuffing and if we have a team that works together I think the party has a shot. EBT is really hard to deal with at level 6 though, the spell casters could dispel it, the Cleric could have the travel domain and just walk through it but it would incapacitate most of the party. The fighter and the rogue could ready an action to attack the wizard, assuming they won initiative and he's not invisible, but that probably means the rogue loses his sneak attack (the Rogue tumbles into his square so that even if he 5 foots away he is still threatened.)
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The wizard can also cast Celerity at this point. So if he can survive long enough to not be flat-footed, he'll likely win.
A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed, not yet reacting normally to the situation. A flat-footed character loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity.
Casting nerveskitter at the start of combat automagically negates being flat-footed, because it specifically lets you cast it while flat-footed.
As far as Wizard 10 (Grey Elf, Int 24 [16 base + 2 racial + 2 level +4 enhancement) vs. Cleric/Fighter/Rogue/Wizard 6 (Fort +10/+10/+4/+4 with decent stats and assuming a +2 item and grapple mods of +6/+11/+5/+3), you can just go EBT (+18 mod, CL 10 wand from familiar) + cloudkill (Fort DC 22). So, on average the Wizard and Rogue are grappled and dead, the Cleric is grappled and takes Con damage, and the Fighter takes some Con damage but isn't grappled. Actually, you have a 60% chance of killing the Cleric and Fighter outright, and that number goes up each round they remain stuck in the cloud. Follow-up, celerity (if you won initiative the old-fashioned way + baleful polymorph the fighter (DC 24 w/ GSF Trans) and wait for the Cleric to die. Or whoever didn't die/get stuck in the cloud of murder-rape.
If by some miracle they both get free of the tentacles, you're still flying and they aren't. So ... yeah.
The fun part is, if you drop the celerity bit, that's all core.
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All of that neglects to take into account that the higher level a primary spellcaster is, the more options it has for making opponents' actions completely worthless.
This entire statement neglects what I said about being on the same optimization footing.
4 Pun Puns > 1 Pun Pun with +4 Levels - It doesn't matter that Pun Pun+ 4 levels has more options than 4 regular Pun Puns; whoever goes first basically wins.
Look at the Dragon Fire Adept build that can infinitely use its breath weapon and fly at level 1. That's just potentially 1 of 4 of the non-Pun Pun party; your non-Pun Pun Wizard is going to 100% of the time neutralize all 4 of the opposition with 1 spell *and* go first? I don't think so.
Don't want to take it to ridiculous extremes? Don't want to take RAW to 11?
Then it's an even simpler initiative battle; a battle which a party of 4 within 4 levels of the solo character will *practically always* win by having 4 rolls to 1 roll. But, 1 character with 1 level of Marshall(Bard/Etc/Etc) makes it that much easier. 4 boosted initiative rolls > 1 boosted initiative roll If even *1* of the party goes first, then the odds of the solo character +4 drops like a rock - but what about all the possibilities? All 4 go before? 3 go before? 2 go before? 0 go before? All 4 go before, AND don't KO the solo? etc. The solo character is looking at practically no shot of being in a good situation. This is all before we know ANYTHING about the details of the encounter; just that the party makes 4 initiative rolls to the solo character's 1 roll and there are far more favorable outcomes to the party than the solo.
At every optimization level for D&D 3.5 it's basically Rocket Tag. This is beyond well known. 4 guys have a much better chance of shooting the first rocket than one guy with 4 bonus levels - and it's entirely possible at practically every single level from 1-20 to arm a character with a rocket (aka a 1 hit KO or potential 1 hit KO) - let alone design an entire group of 4 rocketeers that are optimized to work together.
Since the OP basically was just airing a question, there are no parameters for builds. The boundaries of optimization are exactly what determines who wins this.
"Core Only" inherently limits non-Wizards. In Core, only spellcasters get their 1 roll, AoE, KO rockets from first level on. Most of the classes in Core don't have 1 shot KO's but *can* get rockets if you allow more books.
If you say "everything is open" then 4 Pun Puns > 1 Pun Pun +4 levels.
It's likely that the average game is somewhere in the middle which is going to directly make or break team 1 or team 2 simply based on what is or is not allowed.
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Except when it's level 6 guys vs. a level 10 guy, the level 6's can't be guaranteed a KO with one shot. What's the marshal going to do? Bleed on him? Much the same for the fighter.
The level 10 guy can, if he gets to go, because he can almost certainly kill most of the lower level party with one spell. Or he can at least guarantee his own survival.
We've also left out many powerful defensive spells like Greater Mirror Image.
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The globe of invulnerability series says the one higher-level wizard doesn't give two shits about the lower-level casters'
rockets firecrackers.
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The globe of invulnerability series says the one higher-level wizard doesn't give two shits about the lower-level casters' rockets firecrackers.
Orb spells still by pass that don't they?
So the lower level mage can still go the evocation counter spell route on that front.
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The globe of invulnerability series says the one higher-level wizard doesn't give two shits about the lower-level casters' rockets firecrackers.
Orb spells still by pass that don't they?
So the lower level mage can still go the evocation counter spell route on that front.
No, the globes just say "X level spells stop here". You're thinking of AMF, which doesn't affect instantaneous conjuration effects, such as wall of stone or the orbs, that are cast outside of the AMF and then brought into it.
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I can has Polymorph?
Scrap that, a level 10 wizard should just neutralize the entire party with a wall of force. Level 6 wizards don't have disintegrate, so they have to use fly to get out. When they attempt that, dispelling will solve your problems. If they don't attempt to get out, cloudkill ends their pity little lives.
It's just about crowd control, Sleet storm will also lock down the party, so will black tentacles of awesome.
A 3rd level wizard can also almost certainly take down two level 1s. He would have to have his spells prepared for fighting alone and not doing party help, but between alter self, silent image and invisibility there is enough power to completely lock down the fighter and kill the wizard.
Perhaps at 16th level vs 20th level I could start to see problems for the wizard. Even though he could go crazy with crowd control, the party should have the tools to deal with it.
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Scrap that, a level 10 wizard should just neutralize the entire party with a wall of force. Level 6 wizards don't have disintegrate, so they have to use fly to get out. When they attempt that, dispelling will solve your problems. If they don't attempt to get out, cloudkill ends their pity little lives.
I've never liked WoF that much, because it has to be a single, flat plane. So unless they're in a cave already, you can't seal them in anything with it.
A 3rd level wizard can also almost certainly take down two level 1s. He would have to have his spells prepared for fighting alone and not doing party help, but between alter self, silent image and invisibility there is enough power to completely lock down the fighter and kill the wizard.
Perhaps at 16th level vs 20th level I could start to see problems for the wizard. Even though he could go crazy with crowd control, the party should have the tools to deal with it.
I see this backwards from what you've stated. A level 3 vs. two level 1s is a lot less likely to win than a level 17+ vs. level 15s. Many 9th level spells are game changing, and almost assure victory themselves. See Gate, Timestop, and Astral Projection for examples.
The level 3 guy doesn't have that many spells, and most of the ones he has aren't that spectacular. His hit points are also likely low enough that he can still be one-shotted by a decent attack from a level 1, and he might fail some concentration checks if damaged while casting, also.
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But the wizard at level 1 would almost be worthless, and a level 1 party would have no options for catching someone invisible.
Oh, and when you are invisible in 30 minutes, you can cast a lot of sleep spells.
Ah, I've misunderstood wall of force then, scrap that, it's a terrible spell then. Wall of stone could do it though.
And you are probably right, gate does mean the level 20 wizard can go quite nuts, I'd also almost forgot about shapechange, which can give the wizard unlimited spells per day and other cheese.
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But the wizard at level 1 would almost be worthless, and a level 1 party would have no options for catching someone invisible.
Oh, and when you are invisible in 30 minutes, you can cast a lot of sleep spells.
You can only cast one. After that, you're visible, because it's an attack. Also, Invisibility only lasts 1 minute per level.
You can summon things without breaking your Invisibility, but the enemy party will be able to hear your casting, and might even be able to pinpoint your location. (IIRC they need to be the DC by 20, and the DC is 0). There are also cheap alchemical ways to deal with invisibility that are affordable at level 1, but I wouldn't count on most 1st level characters spending money on them. If ToB is involved, they could have Hunter's Stance for scent, though, and anyone could just buy a (riding) dog. Wizards could have a bat familiar, and druids could have some companion with scent, also. And a mule costs 8 gold pieces, and has scent. So bring on the fleet of trained attack mules.
And you are probably right, gate does mean the level 20 wizard can go quite nuts, I'd also almost forgot about shapechange, which can give the wizard unlimited spells per day and other cheese.
And Moment of Prescience + Foresight + Celerity + Timestop means you go first, and you can spam enough insane spells to kill nearly anything before it even gets to act, including some gods.
Yeah... Gate is completely insane. 2xCL in hit dice means you can call crap like this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#dreamLarva). Or a 40 HD half-fiend dragon, etc.
So I think the wiz17 is almost certainly going to win against a party of 15s, assuming moderate optimization levels on both sides.
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Heck, even celerity -> time stop (shared) + shapechange (shared) + forcecage on the enemy. Have your familiar turn into a beholder and look at the forcecage. Unless the victim has (Ex) teleportation (shadow jaunt/stride/blink) he's stuck while you decide how best to kill him.
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I've always wondered about the Dream Larva's "Worst Nightmare" ability. My characters, quite sensibly, are scared the crap out of by the idea of an epic sharn. But sharns have archetypical form and polymorph immunity. Would the dream larva just explode when first viewed?
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I've always wondered about the Dream Larva's "Worst Nightmare" ability. My characters, quite sensibly, are scared the crap out of by the idea of an epic sharn. But sharns have archetypical form and polymorph immunity. Would the dream larva just explode when first viewed?
I wonder what would happen if the thing that scares the character most is other characters rejecting him. Say, one of the rare dragon shamans that worships and serves an individual true dragon directly, whose worst nightmare would be his patron calling him a disappointment and declaring his services will no longer be required, and then as a follow-up blow his maybe-girlfriend ally deciding to leave the party because she doesn't want to be around him anymore.
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I've always wondered about the Dream Larva's "Worst Nightmare" ability. My characters, quite sensibly, are scared the crap out of by the idea of an epic sharn. But sharns have archetypical form and polymorph immunity. Would the dream larva just explode when first viewed?
I wonder what would happen if the thing that scares the character most is other characters rejecting him. Say, one of the rare dragon shamans that worships and serves an individual true dragon directly, whose worst nightmare would be his patron calling him a disappointment and declaring his services will no longer be required, and then as a follow-up blow his maybe-girlfriend ally deciding to leave the party because she doesn't want to be around him anymore.
They'd just die, like everyone else who fails the will save. The rest is just fluff, right? ;)
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But the wizard at level 1 would almost be worthless, and a level 1 party would have no options for catching someone invisible.
Oh, and when you are invisible in 30 minutes, you can cast a lot of sleep spells.
You can only cast one. After that, you're visible, because it's an attack. Also, Invisibility only lasts 1 minute per level.
You can summon things without breaking your Invisibility, but the enemy party will be able to hear your casting, and might even be able to pinpoint your location. (IIRC they need to be the DC by 20, and the DC is 0). There are also cheap alchemical ways to deal with invisibility that are affordable at level 1, but I wouldn't count on most 1st level characters spending money on them. If ToB is involved, they could have Hunter's Stance for scent, though, and anyone could just buy a (riding) dog. Wizards could have a bat familiar, and druids could have some companion with scent, also. And a mule costs 8 gold pieces, and has scent. So bring on the fleet of trained attack mules.
Eh, the wizard have more money than them combined, he could in theory just use all his money on a fleet of trained attack mules, but then we aren't playing 3.5 but zergling rushing in Starcraft instead.
You are probably right, I don't think it would be a push-over from either side, but even low level wizards can do a lot of neat tricks. Even though they are best at helping their party at that level.
Still with only 3 min invisibility, his raven familiar could utilise a few wands and the wizard could hide.
Or he could fly up with alter self, forcing mr. fighter to fight them with range. And with nerveskitter and improved initative at level 1, he could easily go before the fighter, and once he's got the fighter down, either with sleep, color spray or something else spiffy. He could simply poke the wizard to death with his spear and his combat form of alter self.
The other guys do have a few tricks to pull, but since the level 3 also have more money unless they both have mercantile background, then he would be able to do almost anything they can do, just better.
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Heck, even celerity -> time stop (shared) + shapechange (shared) + forcecage on the enemy. Have your familiar turn into a beholder and look at the forcecage. Unless the victim has (Ex) teleportation (shadow jaunt/stride/blink) he's stuck while you decide how best to kill him.
In response to time stop I cast celerity and maximized+ empowered force orb. Forcing a concentration check of 80ish.
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My god, your internet dicks are huge.
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Heck, even celerity -> time stop (shared) + shapechange (shared) + forcecage on the enemy. Have your familiar turn into a beholder and look at the forcecage. Unless the victim has (Ex) teleportation (shadow jaunt/stride/blink) he's stuck while you decide how best to kill him.
In response to time stop I cast celerity and maximized+ empowered force orb. Forcing a concentration check of 80ish.
Greater Mirror Image. I interrupt your interrupt. :D If I had to use Celerity to go first, this isn't possible of course, as I've already used up my immediate action.
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... says the one higher-level wizard ...
hmm ... if the level difference is "just" one level, it's a pretty close contest, too close to bet on.
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... says the one higher-level wizard ...
hmm ... if the level difference is "just" one level, it's a pretty close contest, too close to bet on.
One higher-level guy, not one level higher guy. Maybe would've been easier if I'd said the more powerful individual doesn't care about the less powerful group's spells.
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Ok - I must have misunderstood (interwebs).
;)
Wizard 4 vs. Wizard 2 - there's not much to talk about.
Fighter 5 vs. Wizard 2 - my money's on the Wiz, but it'd be a close fight, and conditions dramatically change the outcome.
Wiz 2 reads Scroll of Fly (or Alter Self) and probably succeeds = Fighter better be good with Bows + Novas.
Fighter 6 with Wizard 3 vs. Wizard 5 - i think we're half way between the two above positions.
Wiz X vs. Wiz X+2 levels picks up too many goodies, even if a higher level fighter is hanging around.
Y'know, like all the other fun arguments, there's always a painful trump card around,
like go to the Planar Metropolis and get an 8th or 9th level spell cast at the services price.
If this is possible, I pick the higher level class, period.
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Is the party specifically built for hunting this wizard, or is it your run of the mill party level+4 wizard?
I believe a party built for hunting magi stands a significant chance of killing him, albeit with at least some casualties. Spellblade weapons are expensive, but can shut down casters completely. That wizard isn't so powerful when his Orb of Acid is redirected as a Free Action on the next turn.
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Is the party specifically built for hunting this wizard, or is it your run of the mill party level+4 wizard?
I believe a party built for hunting magi stands a significant chance of killing him, albeit with at least some casualties. Spellblade weapons are expensive, but can shut down casters completely. That wizard isn't so powerful when his Orb of Acid is redirected as a Free Action on the next turn.
If he's stupid enough to bother blasting targets that aren't already incapacitated, he deserves to die. You shut them down first, then you kill them, unless the act of shutting them down is also what kills them.
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Is the party specifically built for hunting this wizard, or is it your run of the mill party level+4 wizard?
I believe a party built for hunting magi stands a significant chance of killing him, albeit with at least some casualties. Spellblade weapons are expensive, but can shut down casters completely. That wizard isn't so powerful when his Orb of Acid is redirected as a Free Action on the next turn.
If he's stupid enough to bother blasting targets that aren't already incapacitated, he deserves to die. You shut them down first, then you kill them, unless the act of shutting them down is also what kills them.
Okay, so he shuts them down with Wall of Force and then throws a Cloudkill/Orb of X/Whatever at them, which, to his surprise, is redirected at him, probably killing him. Spellblade weapons require only a free action on the wielder's next turn, after all, so they can be used anytime while conscious. Actually, even if they are unconscious, they are still flat-out immune to the spell the weapon's targeted against.
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:facepalm
He shuts them down with a spell that blocks line of effect but doesn't incapacitate anyone, then attacks with something that needs line of effect which he doesn't have anymore, and even though there is no line of effect, it gets there and then back, somehow.
Yep, too dumb to live. Also, that DM sucks. :eh
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Also, spellblades work on a specific targeted spell.
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Sorcerers don't need Int to function, though... too bad they don't come with spellbooks. Still, it might be worth making a career out of hunting retard sorcerers, depending on what other valuables they have.
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Also, spellblades work on a specific targeted spell.
Okay... I was kind of grasping at straws with Spellblade. It is 6k, which is a lot of cash at lower levels. It does protect from dispels and such, though, which is arguably more useful to the higher level wizard.
You could just let the fighter be a Necropolitan to gain immunity to a good portion of the Wizard's arsenal.
Or you could just give the fighter a Half-Clay Golem graft. But that would be cheating.
Edit: Sorcerer-ganking is a lucrative business if they have NPC wealth.
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Plus, still not very effective. Losing constitution bonus removes a good chunk of hp for melee guys
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The fighter's undead? Awesome! Not only is he not as tough as a living fighter, but he's also subject to command undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/commandUndead.htm).
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The fighter's undead? Awesome! Not only is he not as tough as a living fighter, but he's also subject to command undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/commandUndead.htm).
Only if the wizard realizes he's undead. Disguise exists for a reason, you know.
Plus, still not very effective. Losing constitution bonus removes a good chunk of hp for melee guys
So have him made in a Desecrated area with an evil altar by a Dread Necromancer with the Corpsecrafter feats. But that's just naughty. I'm just coming up with ideas, though. It -is- a daunting task after all to take on any wizard, let alone one who's stronger than you.
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You're suggesting Disguise for the guy who doesn't have it as a class skill, and doesn't have the skill points nor Charisma to pull it off anyway, and who will give up the game the first time he doesn't react correctly to a spell that would wipe him out if he were alive... interesting.
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You're suggesting Disguise for the guy who doesn't have it as a class skill, and doesn't have the skill points nor Charisma to pull it off anyway, and who will give up the game the first time he doesn't react correctly to a spell that would wipe him out if he were alive... interesting.
Actually, I'm suggesting Disguise for someone who only needs it for Minor Details Only, which is a hefty +5 boost. A masterwork tool costs 50 gp for another +2. That's a +7 modifier before anything else (like a Hat of Disguise, only 1.8K). And you could get all of your friends to Aid Another for +2 to +8 on average. A lone wizard is probably not going to be able to beat that by taking 10. He will probably be more concerned with casting spells like Dominate Person or Waves of Fatigue or Enervation.
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Once again, we're back in too stupid to live territory. When you're outnumbered, you don't lead with single target spells, nor do you cast something with a range of 30' that doesn't even stop anybody.
If you're assuming the wizard wants to die, you don't even need the party, he can accomplish it himself.
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Eh, the wizard have more money than them combined, he could in theory just use all his money on a fleet of trained attack mules, but then we aren't playing 3.5 but zergling rushing in Starcraft instead.
I'm sigging that.
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Eh, the wizard have more money than them combined, he could in theory just use all his money on a fleet of trained attack mules, but then we aren't playing 3.5 but zergling rushing in Starcraft instead.
I'm sigging that.
Just remember to leave some money over for feed for all those critters.
[spoiler](http://i.imgur.com/1Xc9E.jpg)[/spoiler]
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You're suggesting Disguise for the guy who doesn't have it as a class skill, and doesn't have the skill points nor Charisma to pull it off anyway, and who will give up the game the first time he doesn't react correctly to a spell that would wipe him out if he were alive... interesting.
I think another person can do the disguise and sometimes people roll 20s.
Also its possible to not get all the enemies into one effect, which is how the lower level people will want it.
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You're suggesting Disguise for the guy who doesn't have it as a class skill, and doesn't have the skill points nor Charisma to pull it off anyway, and who will give up the game the first time he doesn't react correctly to a spell that would wipe him out if he were alive... interesting.
I think another person can do the disguise and sometimes people roll 20s.
[other stuff]
I think an undead would take 20 in this situation. That's better by +10 on average. 20 (take 20) + 10 (Hat of disguise) + 9 (stuff mentioned above) is a DC 39 spot check.
Wizards don't even have Spot as a class skill. So just taking 20 and using regular stuff would make an unbeatable DC.
So its no problem.
Also, only no save no spell resistance spells with very visible effects failing will tip off a Wizard to the inhuman nature of the Fighter.
If it doesn't work and it gives a save, the Fighter probably just made the save.
If it doesn't work and it gives spell resistance, the spell probably just didn't get through.
If the spell doesn't have visible effects even on a failed save, there's no way to tell anyway.
And lots of things are immune to lots of things. So the Wizard can't even pin the specific type down to Undead.
A Wizard isn't going to go "Hmmm, my spell which gives a save or spell resistance or isn't visible didn't work on the human fighter. OBVIOUSLY UNDEAD!!!!".
Then again, there are lots of fight ending spells that bypass undead defenses. Wall of Force comes to mind. A Wizard is probably using those types of spells anyway.
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I for one second the idea of an undead fighter. You can gain enough extra hp per HD to pretend you have 22 con and you also pick up a HD increase so HP wise it's really not bad at all. What you do gain is a crap load of immunities, you can use a Lifedrinker (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#lifeDrinker) without spells, you might be able to become Spellstitched, you can fill your clothes with Black Sand for Fast Healing, and so on.
It's why zombies are going to kill us all.
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"Oh look my permanacied Arcane Sight detects illusion magic on this fighter Hmm uncanny?"
Anyway, "The Disguise check is made secretly, so that you can’t be sure how good the result is" and " Creating a disguise requires 1d3×10 minutes of work. ".
So whether or not you can even take 20 without being able to judge the quality of your results is questionable (since taking 20 is "you try until you get it right", and you have no idea whether or not you've got it right), and are you really going to spend three to ten hours each day with all the party members working on your disguise? The 100 gp cost per attempt is virtually negligible at most levels, but might as well be mentioned
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Eh, the wizard have more money than them combined, he could in theory just use all his money on a fleet of trained attack mules, but then we aren't playing 3.5 but zergling rushing in Starcraft instead.
I'm sigging that.
Just remember to leave some money over for feed for all those critters.
[spoiler](http://i.imgur.com/1Xc9E.jpg)[/spoiler]
Oh my god, pass the eye bleach! Please tell me those things aren't real...
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Just remember to leave some money over for feed for all those critters.
[spoiler](http://i.imgur.com/1Xc9E.jpg)[/spoiler]
This is made of win. You, sir, get a cookie. But, since I cannot find a cookie smilie, you get :pie
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(http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii58/laconicsax/trilobites.jpg)
Prefer this version.
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Eh, the wizard have more money than them combined, he could in theory just use all his money on a fleet of trained attack mules, but then we aren't playing 3.5 but zergling rushing in Starcraft instead.
I'm sigging that.
Just remember to leave some money over for feed for all those critters.
[spoiler](http://i.imgur.com/1Xc9E.jpg)[/spoiler]
Oh my god, pass the eye bleach! Please tell me those things aren't real...
Giant isopods (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant_isopod) are totally real, man. Lovecraft was right, the ocean and everything in it is horrible. :lol
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Giant isopods (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant_isopod) are totally real, man. Lovecraft was right, the ocean and everything in it is horrible delicious. :lol
Taste like lobster.
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... or those crunchy things they put in fancy Thai salads.