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The Thinktank => Min/Max It! => : Smokey_the_bear August 07, 2010, 05:01:11 PM

: Demilich weaknesses
: Smokey_the_bear August 07, 2010, 05:01:11 PM
Do they exist? I have a friend that is going to play one simply because he feels it is invincible. I am determined to show him that everything has its weaknesses and I'm wracking my brain trying to figure out the best and most comprehensive way to at the very least immobilize him. Any suggestions?
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: Prime32 August 07, 2010, 05:04:36 PM
Level? Sources allowed?
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: Smokey_the_bear August 07, 2010, 05:09:19 PM
Level? Sources allowed?
30, and all sources.
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: skydragonknight August 07, 2010, 05:20:02 PM
Demiliches have the same weakness most things have: Epic Spells.
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: snakeman830 August 07, 2010, 05:33:53 PM
Demiliches have the same weakness most things have: Epic Spells.
Have you seen their Magic Immunity?  It even excludes Supernatural effects.

I'd say the weakness is Grappling.  If you can negate Freedom of Movement (possible with an AMF or an Epic spell designed to negate it), you can grapple them with ease (that -12 to Grapple checks is painful).  Just be sure you're protected against its touch attacks and dunk it in Holy Water.  Total submersion ought to work.

Then make sure you smash phylactry and soul gems.
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: skydragonknight August 07, 2010, 05:45:54 PM
A modified Mithril Golem with Swallow Whole that can act as a "Containment Unit"
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: Smokey_the_bear August 07, 2010, 07:10:44 PM
Demiliches have the same weakness most things have: Epic Spells.
Have you seen their Magic Immunity?  It even excludes Supernatural effects.

I'd say the weakness is Grappling.  If you can negate Freedom of Movement (possible with an AMF or an Epic spell designed to negate it), you can grapple them with ease (that -12 to Grapple checks is painful).  Just be sure you're protected against its touch attacks and dunk it in Holy Water.  Total submersion ought to work.

Then make sure you smash phylactry and soul gems.

I had thought about the Holy Water idea. It would just take 1d6 per flask X however many flasks I can empty into any "containment unit". An AMF would negate most of its abilities, (DR, Spell Immunity, Phylactery Transference, Fear Aura, and Paralyzing Touch). The negation of the Prz touch would make grappling it a lot easier though the modified mithril Golem wouldn't have to worry about that anyway. Though I think it would make more of an impact if my character personally picked him up and dunked him into a fish bowl of jesus juice XD
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: skydragonknight August 07, 2010, 07:17:39 PM
I forget. Do meta-magicked orbs (instantaneous conjuration) bypass magic immunity?
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: carnivore August 07, 2010, 07:20:15 PM
a Demilich has a +10 Fort save ..... hit it with a Undead Dread(+7 bonus) Weapon ... forces a DC 27 Fort save or be Destroyed .... a couple of wacks ought to do it ... combined with a Mighty Disruption(+6 bonus) weapon forces another DC 21 Fort save or be destroyed ... note ... this happens with every hit

so a Fighter 30 with a +1 Mighty Disruption Undead Dread Weapon ... should do a nice job of it


 :D
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: snakeman830 August 07, 2010, 07:31:10 PM
Something we're all forgetting is that Demiliches have multiple layers of immortaility.  First is undeath, second is their insane abilities, third is the phylactry/soul gems.

Fourth is the hardest to deal with: Astral Projection at will.  You'll have a hard time making sure the thing is dead because the real body could be anywhere.
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: Bozwevial August 07, 2010, 09:41:37 PM
I'm curious--does the demilich's DR apply to the holy water? Wait, no, total immersion would up the damage. Yes?
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: Gunhaven August 08, 2010, 12:50:05 AM
I was going to say the +10 LA (I think).  Unless you were a Dread Necromancer, then you're be 20 DN/ 4 X.  And does the Phylactery even have to be with the body?  Couldn't it be somewhere in the middle of Limbo or in some other spot that would make it impossible to get to?
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: weenog August 08, 2010, 12:53:45 AM
Demiliches have the same weakness most things have: Epic Spells.
Have you seen their Magic Immunity?  It even excludes Supernatural effects.

I'd say the weakness is Grappling.  If you can negate Freedom of Movement (possible with an AMF or an Epic spell designed to negate it), you can grapple them with ease (that -12 to Grapple checks is painful).  Just be sure you're protected against its touch attacks and dunk it in Holy Water.  Total submersion ought to work.

Then make sure you smash phylactry and soul gems.

I had thought about the Holy Water idea. It would just take 1d6 per flask X however many flasks I can empty into any "containment unit". An AMF would negate most of its abilities, (DR, Spell Immunity, Phylactery Transference, Fear Aura, and Paralyzing Touch). The negation of the Prz touch would make grappling it a lot easier though the modified mithril Golem wouldn't have to worry about that anyway. Though I think it would make more of an impact if my character personally picked him up and dunked him into a fish bowl of jesus juice XD

Why bother with multiple flasks?  Give yourself water breathing, empty one flask onto the floor to make a puddle, then hit it with raise water and get to grappling.
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: Smokey_the_bear August 08, 2010, 01:58:55 AM
I'm curious--does the demilich's DR apply to the holy water? Wait, no, total immersion would up the damage. Yes?
DR only applies to physical attacks.
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: Bozwevial August 08, 2010, 03:14:53 AM
I'm curious--does the demilich's DR apply to the holy water? Wait, no, total immersion would up the damage. Yes?
DR only applies to physical attacks.
Ah, right. In any case, it wouldn't really matter since being totally immersed in holy water would deal much more damage than being splashed with it. Certainly more than 15 points of damage, in any case.
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: skydragonknight August 08, 2010, 03:53:05 AM
So an anti-magic field above a giant trap door that will open under minuscule pressure above a giant bathtub filled with holy water? Demilich flight is suppressed by AMF, isn't it?
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: Archmage Joda August 08, 2010, 04:32:05 AM
I was going to say the +10 LA (I think).  Unless you were a Dread Necromancer, then you're be 20 DN/ 4 X.  And does the Phylactery even have to be with the body?  Couldn't it be somewhere in the middle of Limbo or in some other spot that would make it impossible to get to?

Does the demilich have a printed LA somewhere? It doesn't seem to have on in the Epic Level Handbook, the 3.5 Update for such, or the SRD, so if so, where is this LA?
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: Naldor August 08, 2010, 04:55:48 AM
If you want poetic justice, have one of its greatest strength's be a weakness; its undead nature renders it vulnerable to turning.  I've got archived a 20 level cleric based build which can reliably turn a demi-lich.  It was from the 2004 CO contest at 339, which is now lost to board wipes, but if a character 10 levels lower can insta-kill it...

As to the soul-gems / phylactery, the text on making a demi-lich says that the soul gems are incorporated to its major form, which I take to read as the phylactery.  So there's only one thing to find, and you have 24 hours in which to do so, which ought to be no problem for a half decent wizard.

As an alternative method of killing it, may I suggest the holy-water squirt gun of DOOM? 

[spoiler]
You take a decanter of endless water, weld a funnel to the end, and put the tip of the funnel into a chalice which converts all water entering it into holy water, then put the entire assembly into a hollow steel tube.  You drill a hole in the end opposite the direction in which the decanter is aimed. 

The result (and this has been posted before by others) is a squirt gun shooting out holy water.  Where's the EPIC DEATH you say?

Its simple.  If each piece of the assembly is coated in quintessence so as to be indestructible (either this, or make everything out of riverine), the system can handle very high pressures.  According to my calculations, if you make the the pinhole (you're really better off with a long tube of interior diameter of the right size) have a radius of 4.483 microns, you will achieve water velocities in excess of 99.9999995% the speed of light.  You know how they use water jets to cut steel?  Now imagine if every water molecule had 10,000 times its normal mass due to relativistic effects.  Hell, make the hole 4 microns in radius and you could slice entire cities in twain.  DR 30 suddenly doesn't look very impressive.  And best of all, fast-moving holy water is completely non-magical, so you can even go around carving up golems and colossi.
[/spoiler]

PM me or post if you'd like me to send you that super turning build, as its rather lengthy, but I'd be quite happy to zip it up (saved it as an html file) and e-mail it to you.
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: Gunhaven August 08, 2010, 05:02:28 AM
I was going to say the +10 LA (I think).  Unless you were a Dread Necromancer, then you're be 20 DN/ 4 X.  And does the Phylactery even have to be with the body?  Couldn't it be somewhere in the middle of Limbo or in some other spot that would make it impossible to get to?

Does the demilich have a printed LA somewhere? It doesn't seem to have on in the Epic Level Handbook, the 3.5 Update for such, or the SRD, so if so, where is this LA?

I'm not entirely sure.  I just went with +6 because of the CR and it seems like a reasonable thing to do when coming up with a LA when there isn't one.
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: weenog August 08, 2010, 05:40:07 AM
Er, Naldor, your calculations neglect to take into account that D&D does not care about little things like inertia and pressure.  99.9999995% the speed of light isn't that impressive anyway, you can exceed c entirely with the commoner railgun.  That one's useless for doing damage too because at the end of the line the hammer just drops as it would if only one commoner had passed it into empty space.
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: Naldor August 08, 2010, 05:48:33 AM
: weenog
Er, Naldor, your calculations neglect to take into account that D&D does not care about little things like inertia and pressure.
Uh, yeah it does.  I've always thought that the commoner railgun was a bit silly; the 'railgun' can exist only as a rules abstraction, but the c-fractional squirtgun would actually make sense if a character had one.  And 99.9999995% c gets really impressive when you start getting γ-values of 10,000...

: DMG
The Material Plane tends to be the most Earthlike of all planes and operates under the same set of natural laws that our own real world does. This is the default plane for most adventures.
If we don't care about little things like inertia and pressure, what is next?  Gravity?  Without inertia, arrows could suddenly stop in flight because they bumped into a grain of dust.
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: Gunhaven August 08, 2010, 05:50:58 AM
As to the soul-gems / phylactery, the text on making a demi-lich says that the soul gems are incorporated to its major form, which I take to read as the phylactery.  So there's only one thing to find, and you have 24 hours in which to do so, which ought to be no problem for a half decent wizard.

I think they're separate entities.
: The Book, Creating Soul Gems, 177
Liches have phylacteries that allow them to reappear 1d10 days after their apparent death, as do demiliches.  Demiliches also have eight soul gems, each of which acts like a phylactery in its own right.
...
Soul gems appear as egg-shaped gems of wondrous quality. They are always incorporated directly into the concentrated form of the demilich. For instance, a demilich skull might place the gems in the eye and tooth sockets of the skull, while a demilich hand might integrate the gems as faux joints.

So you still have that Lich Phylactery that isn't on the body, with all your gear, in some far off land.  Heck, you're epic level and evil, you probably have it in some impenetrable fortress in Limbo/Your Own Plane.  Some place that's impossible to get to by anyone else and you nearly die getting out of it.
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: weenog August 08, 2010, 05:58:36 AM
: DMG
The Material Plane tends to be the most Earthlike of all planes and operates under the same set of natural laws that our own real world does. This is the default plane for most adventures.
: PHB
Of all the classes, the fighter has the best all-around fighting capabilities (hence the name).

These are both cute, well-meaning little statements.  Without hard rules to back them up, they're also meaningless fluff saying things that just aren't true.
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: skydragonknight August 08, 2010, 06:01:49 AM
Lotsa small stuff...long post is long because people keep replying:

If an AMF is a "magical effect", wouldn't a Demilich be immune to it (Magic Immunity is Ex... :banghead)? You'd need an oldschool dead magic zone.

Also, grappling doesn't work outside a dead magic zone, and you can't dispel freedom of movement because it'll just put it's RoFM with it's phylactery:
Phylactery Transference (Su)
Headbands, belts, rings, cloaks, and other wearable items kept in close association with the demilich’s phylactery transfer all their benefits to the demilich no matter how far apart the demilich and the phylactery are located. The standard limits on types of items utilized simultaneously still apply. The sample demilich “wears” bracers of armor +8, headband of intellect +6, pink Ioun stone, ring of wizardry I, ring of protection +2, and gloves of Dexterity +2.

I'd say to let Shout and Greater Shout work on it as Shatter does(the rational of crystalline creature should be universal). Greater Shout can deafen it, which is one of the few debuffs that can affect undead that would actually matter to a demilich. Greater Shout can also affect objects, so it's not auto-immune.

Speaking of auto-immune to Fort saves...

a Demilich has a +10 Fort save ..... hit it with a Undead Dread(+7 bonus) Weapon ... forces a DC 27 Fort save or be Destroyed .... a couple of wacks ought to do it ... combined with a Mighty Disruption(+6 bonus) weapon forces another DC 21 Fort save or be destroyed ... note ... this happens with every hit

so a Fighter 30 with a +1 Mighty Disruption Undead Dread Weapon ... should do a nice job of it


 :D

Undead are immune to anything that requires a Fort save unless it also affects objects. Mighty Disruption does not state an exception to this immunity, making it by RAW the worst Epic weapon property there is (clearly an oversight, but this is CO and we live and die by oversights).

Dread however says "this even works on creatures immune to critical hits and death effects", making it a specific exception to the normal rule, so just use this.

(new posts while I was posting)
Next...DR is 15/epic and bludgeoning in the update. Squirtgun has potential, but demiliches have high touch AC (they get an insight bonus to AC = character level), so make sure a dedicated ranged attacker uses it.

As for LA, Lich only has a CR adjustment of +2, while the LA is +4. Demilich is CR+6, so LA should probably be higher. Also, the character needs to be character level 21 to even become a Demilich, so even with LA+6 it's only possible if you buy off a level of Lich.

(new posts while I wrote THAT)
The picture of the Demilich has the soul gems as it's eyes and teeth. "Major form" refers to it's demilich "body". Fluff says (yeah, I actually have the Epic Level Handbook. Primary Source FTW): "A demilich often appears as a single skull fitted with costly gems. ... The gems gleam wickedly with the light of stolen souls be slowly devoured."
That and the fact that the soul gems are what it uses for it's "Trap the Soul" ability is fairly conclusive.

(one more post while I wrote that)
Let's ignore the real world physics. This is a game with specific rule inherent to it. Let's use those rules to find the solution that no one can argue.

Edit: stopped the flow of posts because you're trying to figure out what part of mine you want to reply to.  :lmao
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: Gunhaven August 08, 2010, 06:39:33 AM
If an AMF is a "magical effect", wouldn't a Demilich be immune to it (Magic Immunity is Ex... :banghead)? You'd need an oldschool dead magic zone.
DMZs can apparently be fixed with Wish.  Page 56, FRCS.
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: skydragonknight August 08, 2010, 07:10:32 AM
Nice. (averaging out my two posts)
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: Ramaloke August 08, 2010, 07:54:29 AM
There is a table in the ELH that lists a 21st level wizard Demilish as ECL 33, on page 156.

Demilich LA is is 8, with the 4 from Lich making the total LA 12. Your Demilich friend would have to be something like, ECL 33. Lets not forget the lost EXP from becoming a demilich and the resources put into crafting soul gems.
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: Gunhaven August 08, 2010, 02:00:43 PM
There is a table in the ELH that lists a 21st level wizard Demilish as ECL 33, on page 156.

Demilich LA is is 8, with the 4 from Lich making the total LA 12. Your Demilich friend would have to be something like, ECL 33. Lets not forget the lost EXP from becoming a demilich and the resources put into crafting soul gems.
You can get that back by Thought Bottle and/or murdering small cities because you're bored, can't you?
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: skydragonknight August 08, 2010, 02:50:45 PM
There is a table in the ELH that lists a 21st level wizard Demilish as ECL 33, on page 156.

Demilich LA is is 8, with the 4 from Lich making the total LA 12. Your Demilich friend would have to be something like, ECL 33. Lets not forget the lost EXP from becoming a demilich and the resources put into crafting soul gems.
You can get that back by Thought Bottle and/or murdering small cities because you're bored, can't you?

Murdering, yes. Thought bottling, that's tough. You need to lose a level to thought bottle, either by level drain or by being brought back to life. A lich can't be level drained and it wouldn't want to be brought back to life by the normal spells. Revive Undead works, but do you really trust someone to cast that on you? You'd have to start at ECL 26 (22+4) instead of 25, but in this case at least (with level 30 starting xp) that wouldn't stop you.
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: The_Mad_Linguist August 08, 2010, 04:50:37 PM
The existence of a preferred reference frame and instantaneous light speed are clear examples of DnD physics not including relativistic effects.  Or at least, relativistic effects not mattering, since you can't go at a speed of infinity anyway.
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: carnivore August 08, 2010, 04:58:45 PM
quick clarification .... notice from the SRD:

Mighty Disruption: Any undead creature struck in combat must succeed at a Fortitude save (DC 21) or be destroyed. A weapon of mighty disruption must be a bludgeoning weapon. (If this property is rolled for a piercing or slashing weapon, reroll.)
Caster Level: 21st; Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Epic Magic Arms and Armor, true resurrection; Market Price: +6 bonus.


the Text does require Undead to make a Fort save ... an exception to the norm of Undead traits:  "Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless)." ..... a Mighty Disruption weapon is very effective vs Undead by its own description

 :D

: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: Gunhaven August 08, 2010, 05:18:08 PM
Could the Demilich make his own plane with the following traits:
: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm#planarTraits
Static
These planes are unchanging. Visitors cannot affect living residents of the plane, nor objects that the denizens possess. Any spells that would affect those on the plane have no effect unless the plane’s static trait is somehow removed or suppressed. Spells cast before entering a plane with the static trait remain in effect, however.

Dead Magic

These planes have no magic at all. A plane with the dead magic trait functions in all respects like an antimagic field spell. Divination spells cannot detect subjects within a dead magic plane, nor can a spellcaster use teleport or another spell to move in or out. The only exception to the “no magic” rule is permanent planar portals, which still function normally. 
And put his Lich Phylactery in a castle or something on said plane.  Then you couldn't affect the thing unless you somehow repress it, which you would first have to repress the Dead Magic.  Make it have definite borders or something so that it can't be effected by spells from the outside and somehow make it so that the Dead Magic can't be Wished away (Maybe make the Plane living and therefore Static?) and then the only way in and out is through a Portal.  A portal that's guarded by the Plane and is at least 10 days away from the Phylactery no matter how fast one moves.

TLDR version: Put the Lich Phylactery on your own Static, Dead Magic, Living Plane.  Make the Plane only able to be accessed through a portal.  Put the portal 11 days away at the fastest speed possible for anyone.
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: skydragonknight August 08, 2010, 05:35:59 PM
@Carnivore: Yeah, I was being super-nit-picky in a rules lawyery way. I'll retract my technicality as even if it might be true defies common sense (only kevin_video's DM would use it).

@Gunhaven: Static doesn't matter; if someone finds the phylactery to begin with, they'll take it out of the plane and destroy it. Dead magic would mean a couple things: the demilich couldn't scry it's own phylactery, and they're extremely paranoid by nature (like Voldemort and Sauron, they can't sense their object(s) of immortality's location or if it's about to be destroyed). The demilich would have to check on it in person and some deity might discover the portal if they're monitoring the demilich (which they should be) and finds he likes to visit X location.

Also: Demilich's only movement speed is supernatural flight. If for some reason it needs to reform, it'll have to roll it's head along the ground to the portal at 5 ft/full round action in order to get out. This is *extremely* humiliating and I can't see any demilich putting themselves in that position.
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: fuinjutsu August 08, 2010, 06:06:44 PM
@Carnivore: Yeah, I was being super-nit-picky in a rules lawyery way. I'll retract my technicality as even if it might be true defies common sense (only kevin_video's DM would use it).

@Gunhaven: Static doesn't matter; if someone finds the phylactery to begin with, they'll take it out of the plane and destroy it. Dead magic would mean a couple things: the demilich couldn't scry it's own phylactery, and they're extremely paranoid by nature (like Voldemort and Sauron, they can't sense their object(s) of immortality's location or if it's about to be destroyed). The demilich would have to check on it in person and some deity might discover the portal if they're monitoring the demilich (which they should be) and finds he likes to visit X location.

Also: Demilich's only movement speed is supernatural flight. If for some reason it needs to reform, it'll have to roll it's head along the ground to the portal at 5 ft/full round action in order to get out. This is *extremely* humiliating and I can't see any demilich putting themselves in that position.
:lmao

Don't bring common sense into this.

THIS. IS. D&D.
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: Gunhaven August 08, 2010, 06:10:16 PM
I'm just trying to think of a way to protect the original Phylactery since I think that that's the only weakness it has left.  You could dunk him in holy water inside a Dead Magic Field (assuming you do it before he wishes it all away) to destroy the body.  Then you can teleport away to the Phylactery and destroy it within a day.  Dead Magic and a whole bunch of followers/traps?  Maybe some Tucker's Kobolds on every single level with Teleportation somehow blocked.  Dimensional Locks maybe?  Or something like the Cube (from the movie with the same name.  2nd movie would be funner) so that they can never be sure where they're going and will end up dying (if they're alive) trying to get to your precious Phylactery.

TLDR (I just like saying that now): This thing as a lair (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cube_2:_Hypercube) + these guys as followers (http://www.tuckerskobolds.com/) + Lock Down on every cell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dimensionalLock.htm) = Protected Phylactery?
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: skydragonknight August 08, 2010, 06:12:30 PM
There have been a couple "Hide My Phylactery" threads. My favorite location was at the bottom of the Eberron lake the Tarrasque lives in.
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: weenog August 08, 2010, 06:14:56 PM
Does the phylactery even work in a dead magic plane?  I thought that (at least for a normal lich) the phylactery being a magic item meant its abilities were suppressed in an antimagic field, and a lich destroyed while his phylactery is inside an AMF would need to wait until the AMF went away or the phylactery was moved before it could reappear.

Presumably a dead magic plane causes a similar problem.
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: skydragonknight August 08, 2010, 06:27:43 PM
A hilarious phylactery would be a raptor arrow. Should you die, you wake up next to a Swift Hunter, say "Hiiii!" and proceed to devour his soul.
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: Gunhaven August 08, 2010, 06:46:05 PM
I kinda like these suggestions (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2792943&postcount=15).  Especially the roulette where you disguise it as a holy relic and give it to a bunch of paladins/clerics.  Too bad you have to keep the soul gems on you and they have to be gems or you could do the same thing and have 9 holy relics that you get to choose from.
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: veekie August 08, 2010, 06:46:51 PM
If only theres some way to transform them, I don't think Phylacteries trigger if the lich/demilich change into an inactive shape right?

EDIT: About hiding phylacteries, what if you use Polymorph Any Object to create an innocent child from the phylactery and pamper the kid(with tricks to avoid aging and stuff). Main trick, give the kid some bauble that looks amazingly like a phylactery to wear.
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: Gunhaven August 08, 2010, 06:59:24 PM
If only theres some way to transform them, I don't think Phylacteries trigger if the lich/demilich change into an inactive shape right?

EDIT: About hiding phylacteries, what if you use Polymorph Any Object to create an innocent child from the phylactery and pamper the kid(with tricks to avoid aging and stuff). Main trick, give the kid some bauble that looks amazingly like a phylactery to wear.

I think that's right.  The description for Lich states "its apparent death."  And I'd rather have the kid live in an orphanage or some place protected.  If only there was some way to make it so that when you reappear no one (or at least the kid) saw you reform.
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: skydragonknight August 08, 2010, 07:09:13 PM
I think that's right.  The description for Lich states "its apparent death."  And I'd rather have the kid live in an orphanage or some place protected.  If only there was some way to make it so that when you reappear no one (or at least the kid) saw you reform.

Pixie Lich?
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: weenog August 08, 2010, 07:10:59 PM
I think that's right.  The description for Lich states "its apparent death."  And I'd rather have the kid live in an orphanage or some place protected.  If only there was some way to make it so that when you reappear no one (or at least the kid) saw you reform.

Locate City nuke?
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: Gunhaven August 08, 2010, 07:19:57 PM
Locate City nuke?
If you're going to be throwing nukes around you're probably no better than the Demilich you're going after.
Pixie Lich?
A diminutive, flying, invisible, Pixie skull sounds pretty entertaining.
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: weenog August 08, 2010, 07:20:42 PM
I find that violence, pitched at sufficient extremes, is equivalent to stealth.
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: Ramaloke August 08, 2010, 09:30:35 PM
Will he have access to Aumvor's soul shatter? The epic spell that splits a phylactery into multiple items?
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: Gunhaven August 08, 2010, 09:37:22 PM
Will he have access to Aumvor's Fragmented Phylactery? The epic spell that splits a phylactery into multiple items?

I'd hope so.  Am I reading it right that you can have Near Infinite Phylacteries with the spell?
: Champion of Ruin, 37
"This spell can be cast repeatedly on a phylactery or part thereof.  Each time it is cast, the number of objects that comprise the lich's phylactery can be increased by an amount equal to the caster's modifier for it's spellcasting ability."
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: The_Mad_Linguist August 08, 2010, 09:40:33 PM
If only theres some way to transform them, I don't think Phylacteries trigger if the lich/demilich change into an inactive shape right?

EDIT: About hiding phylacteries, what if you use Polymorph Any Object to create an innocent child from the phylactery and pamper the kid(with tricks to avoid aging and stuff). Main trick, give the kid some bauble that looks amazingly like a phylactery to wear.

Libris mortis has rules on phylactery shapes - "Regardless of the phylactery’s form, its game statistics remain the same: size Tiny, hp 40, hardness 20, break DC 40... A phylactery cannot be part of another magic item, nor may additional magical properties be built into it."

If you PaO it into something else, you couldn't really expect it to still work (after all, a +1 flaming sword PaOed into a horse doesn't get you a +1 Flaming horse).
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: Gunhaven August 08, 2010, 09:41:56 PM
If you PaO it into something else, you couldn't really expect it to still work (after all, a +1 flaming sword PaOed into a horse doesn't get you a +1 Flaming horse).

I'm bringing this up and hoping that the DM lets me get away with a +1 Flaming Horse.  Just putting that out there.
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: veekie August 08, 2010, 09:46:08 PM
Will he have access to Aumvor's soul shatter? The epic spell that splits a phylactery into multiple items?
Make your phylactery into a whole town's population?
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: Gunhaven August 08, 2010, 09:48:26 PM
Will he have access to Aumvor's soul shatter? The epic spell that splits a phylactery into multiple items?
Make your phylactery into a whole town's population?
I was thinking of making it basically the entire Material Plane.
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: veekie August 08, 2010, 09:49:33 PM
Libris mortis has rules on phylactery shapes - "Regardless of the phylactery’s form, its game statistics remain the same: size Tiny, hp 40, hardness 20, break DC 40... A phylactery cannot be part of another magic item, nor may additional magical properties be built into it."

If you PaO it into something else, you couldn't really expect it to still work (after all, a +1 flaming sword PaOed into a horse doesn't get you a +1 Flaming horse).
Well, you could always surgically install the things into vital organs of innocents...
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: skydragonknight August 08, 2010, 09:51:07 PM
If you PaO it into something else, you couldn't really expect it to still work (after all, a +1 flaming sword PaOed into a horse doesn't get you a +1 Flaming horse).

I'm bringing this up and hoping that the DM lets me get away with a +1 Flaming Horse.  Just putting that out there.

Called a Nightmare.
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: Gunhaven August 08, 2010, 09:52:50 PM
If you PaO it into something else, you couldn't really expect it to still work (after all, a +1 flaming sword PaOed into a horse doesn't get you a +1 Flaming horse).

I'm bringing this up and hoping that the DM lets me get away with a +1 Flaming Horse.  Just putting that out there.

Called a Nightmare.

Not nearly as entertaining as +1 Flaming Horse.
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: Akkristor August 08, 2010, 09:57:28 PM
A demilich must be epic, so why is everyone assuming the Demilich only has the one phylactery and the 8 soul gems?

Champions of Ruin gives us the Epic spell:  Fragmented Phylactery, allowing a Lich or Demilich to easily and quickly create more phylacteries.  1 minute adds an additional Phylactery for each point of your Intelligence modifier, and can be added multiple times.

An epic Lich is not really killable, your best bet is to True Create a block of Cement/Adamantine/Plotanium/Dirtylittlebitch-inite around him then encase the entire thing in a dead magic field ala a Wish spell.

You now have an imprisoned immortal demilich mage ready and waiting to be accidentally unsealed 1000 years from now by some unwitting adventurer to serve as the BBEG for a new plot.
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: The_Mad_Linguist August 09, 2010, 01:56:22 AM
Step 1: Incapacitate him
Step 2: Strip him of his undead immunities
Step 3: Use knowledge affilation to sever his connection to his phylacteries for a minute.
Step 4: Coup De Grace.
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: Akkristor August 09, 2010, 05:24:00 AM
Step 1: Incapacitate him
Step 2: Strip him of his undead immunities
Step 3: Use knowledge affilation to sever his connection to his phylacteries for a minute.
Step 4: Coup De Grace.

but doing so in a manner that does not use any Magical or supernatural abilities?
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: skydragonknight August 09, 2010, 06:28:51 AM
Actually, thought of a funny build to kill a Lich. Be a Drunken Master and then dip Psychic Warrior with the Soulbound Weapon ACF and choose "Lich's phylactery" as your Soulbound weapon. Then bang it against stuff until you roll a 1. :lmao
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: Daedalus August 09, 2010, 08:36:37 AM
Tbh; not really feasible to kill a demilich, don't forget it's a 21st lvl spellcaster, as such it'll have multiple contingencies prepared for most situations.

AMF's not the be all end all since it can be ended my Mage's Disjunction albeit only CL% chance.
Altough the loss of a Demilich's physical form is most likely a minor inconvenience since the items it passivly uses aren't even worn. 

After it reforms it'll just find a way to inflicht terrible terrible damage on you or those you care about...
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: snakeman830 August 09, 2010, 11:22:44 AM
And, you know, that all you killed was probably an Astral Projection...
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: McPoyo August 09, 2010, 12:59:28 PM
I'd like to point out that "Magic Immunity" in 3.5 only means "Infinite Spell Resistance" now. Shatter also normally effects it.

Discuss.
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: snakeman830 August 09, 2010, 01:38:29 PM
Except that the Magic Immunity specifies Supernatural effects as well, which never allow SR.  IIRC, it also says all spells (although apparently this immunity does not extend to its own casting).
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: McPoyo August 09, 2010, 01:44:02 PM
Except that the Magic Immunity specifies Supernatural effects as well, which never allow SR.  IIRC, it also says all spells (although apparently this immunity does not extend to its own casting).
It made a difference in 3.0, though. The 3.5 document doesn't clarify the ability, which has an explicit definition in the...dmg? Phb? MM? One of the core three.
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: PhaedrusXY August 09, 2010, 01:56:57 PM
And does the Phylactery even have to be with the body?  Couldn't it be somewhere in the middle of Limbo or in some other spot that would make it impossible to get to?
Only a retarded demilich would keep its phylactery with it. Especially look at the Phylactery Transferrence ability, or whatever it's called, that lets it benefit from magic items left with its phylactery.

So... yeah, finding and getting to that phylactery should be an epic adventure in itself.
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: McPoyo August 09, 2010, 02:08:36 PM
And does the Phylactery even have to be with the body?  Couldn't it be somewhere in the middle of Limbo or in some other spot that would make it impossible to get to?
Only a retarded demilich would keep its phylactery with it. Especially look at the Phylactery Transferrence ability, or whatever it's called, that lets it benefit from magic items left with its phylactery.

So... yeah, finding and getting to that phylactery should be an epic adventure in itself.
Or just a day's worth of CoPing.
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: skydragonknight August 09, 2010, 02:13:45 PM
A Drunken Master (you can use improvised weapons)/ Psychic Warrior should be able to summon it with Soulbound Weapon (you can call a specific weapon from anywhere), as I stated earlier.
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: McPoyo August 09, 2010, 02:15:04 PM
A Drunken Master (you can use improvised weapons)/ Psychic Warrior should be able to summon it with Soulbound Weapon (you can call a specific weapon from anywhere), as I stated earlier.
While holding their breathe in a Wall of Force built room with no exists in an AMF full of Holy Water...
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: skydragonknight August 09, 2010, 02:22:23 PM
As long as the Holy Water was 50% alcohol, he'd do it. Although Call weaponry wouldn't work in an AMF. AMF would have to be a contingency.
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: McPoyo August 09, 2010, 02:24:34 PM
As long as the Holy Water was 50% alcohol, he'd do it. Although Call weaponry wouldn't work in an AMF. AMF would have to be a contingency.
Call weapon, contingency triggers.

Also, Mead is primarily water-based...if he were a dwarf...
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: nijineko August 09, 2010, 06:23:53 PM
i've always been fond of shrink item... works on pools of water, holy or not. turn a pool or pools of holy water into cloth, and that into clothes or something, "give" it to the lich somehow as loot. let the lich take the loot home and you don't have to even find the lair....
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: The_Mad_Linguist August 09, 2010, 10:31:36 PM
Except that the Magic Immunity specifies Supernatural effects as well, which never allow SR.  IIRC, it also says all spells (although apparently this immunity does not extend to its own casting).
Depends if you consider Rules Compendium to override it or not, I suppose.

If it does, a factotum can just get right past it.
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: Kuroimaken August 10, 2010, 01:42:58 AM
Except that the Magic Immunity specifies Supernatural effects as well, which never allow SR.  IIRC, it also says all spells (although apparently this immunity does not extend to its own casting).

Doesn't mean jack for spells that do not allow SR, though.
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: veekie August 10, 2010, 10:14:43 AM
As long as the Holy Water was 50% alcohol, he'd do it. Although Call weaponry wouldn't work in an AMF. AMF would have to be a contingency.
Call weapon, contingency triggers.

Also, Mead is primarily water-based...if he were a dwarf...
Any dwarf worth the name would make holy water out of high proof whiskey.
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: Uriel_Ventris August 10, 2010, 04:14:37 PM
As long as the Holy Water was 50% alcohol, he'd do it. Although Call weaponry wouldn't work in an AMF. AMF would have to be a contingency.
Call weapon, contingency triggers.

Also, Mead is primarily water-based...if he were a dwarf...
Any dwarf worth the name would make holy water out of high proof whiskey.

Good thing mead is not whiskey.  ;)
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: nijineko August 10, 2010, 04:31:27 PM
http://geneticanomaly.com/RPG-Motivational/slides/dwarf.html
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: veekie August 10, 2010, 05:08:16 PM
Think of the Holy Whisky Flamethrowers?
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: skydragonknight August 10, 2010, 05:09:22 PM
Think of the Holy Whisky Flamethrowers?

What do you think a Dwarven Flame Strike is?
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: McPoyo August 10, 2010, 05:33:14 PM
Think of the Holy Whisky Flamethrowers?

What do you think a Dwarven Flame Strike is?
Self-induced vomiting, obviously.
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: nijineko August 10, 2010, 05:56:02 PM
what? it wasn't flatulence? and all this time....
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: Kuroimaken August 10, 2010, 06:07:29 PM
what? it wasn't flatulence? and all this time....
No, that's Cloudkill.
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: Gunhaven August 10, 2010, 06:23:51 PM
http://geneticanomaly.com/RPG-Motivational/slides/dwarf.html
Sounds like a disappointing dwarf to me.
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: McPoyo August 10, 2010, 06:25:31 PM
http://geneticanomaly.com/RPG-Motivational/slides/dwarf.html
Sounds like a disappointing dwarf to me.
Sounds like a REAL DWARF (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/) to me.
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: veekie August 11, 2010, 04:27:13 AM
what? it wasn't flatulence? and all this time....
No, that's Cloudkill.
Some make Stinking Clouds instead.
Though that may just be the BO.
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: Korwin August 11, 2010, 08:43:31 AM
If you want poetic justice, have one of its greatest strength's be a weakness; its undead nature renders it vulnerable to turning.  I've got archived a 20 level cleric based build which can reliably turn a demi-lich.  It was from the 2004 CO contest at 339, which is now lost to board wipes, but if a character 10 levels lower can insta-kill it...

Why use turning, if you can use rebuking?
Is there an equivalent to Greater Turning?
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: McPoyo August 11, 2010, 09:12:44 AM
If you want poetic justice, have one of its greatest strength's be a weakness; its undead nature renders it vulnerable to turning.  I've got archived a 20 level cleric based build which can reliably turn a demi-lich.  It was from the 2004 CO contest at 339, which is now lost to board wipes, but if a character 10 levels lower can insta-kill it...

Why use turning, if you can use rebuking?
Is there an equivalent to Greater Turning?
because intelligent undead get a resist check every day.
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: snakeman830 August 11, 2010, 12:02:50 PM
If you want poetic justice, have one of its greatest strength's be a weakness; its undead nature renders it vulnerable to turning.  I've got archived a 20 level cleric based build which can reliably turn a demi-lich.  It was from the 2004 CO contest at 339, which is now lost to board wipes, but if a character 10 levels lower can insta-kill it...

Why use turning, if you can use rebuking?
Is there an equivalent to Greater Turning?
because intelligent undead get a resist check every day.
Interesting houserule.

Because that's exactly what this is: a houserule.  RAW, there is no check to resist control.  They just are controlled.
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: Bozwevial August 11, 2010, 04:18:10 PM
http://geneticanomaly.com/RPG-Motivational/slides/dwarf.html
Sounds like a disappointing dwarf to me.
Sounds like a REAL DWARF (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/) to me.
What kind of terrible dwarf doesn't drink alcohol or live in a cave? I mean, next you'll be telling me that the dwarves have decided to go live in the trees with the elves.
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: nijineko August 11, 2010, 06:18:57 PM
*quietly nudges his sheet on the under-tree dwelling dwarvish race under a pile of paper...*
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: Agita August 11, 2010, 06:34:56 PM
http://geneticanomaly.com/RPG-Motivational/slides/dwarf.html
Sounds like a disappointing dwarf to me.
Sounds like a REAL DWARF (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/) to me.
What kind of terrible dwarf doesn't drink alcohol or live in a cave? I mean, next you'll be telling me that the dwarves have decided to go live in the trees with the elves.
[spoiler](http://www.pequetele.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/david20el20gnomo20la20pelicula1.jpg) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_el_gnomo)

I suppose technically he's a gnome, but he looks more like a dwarf.[/spoiler]
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: Kuroimaken August 11, 2010, 06:44:53 PM
http://geneticanomaly.com/RPG-Motivational/slides/dwarf.html
Sounds like a disappointing dwarf to me.
Sounds like a REAL DWARF (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/) to me.
What kind of terrible dwarf doesn't drink alcohol or live in a cave? I mean, next you'll be telling me that the dwarves have decided to go live in the trees with the elves.
[spoiler](http://www.pequetele.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/david20el20gnomo20la20pelicula1.jpg) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_el_gnomo)

I suppose technically he's a gnome, but he looks more like a dwarf.[/spoiler]

Agita, always shaking the foundations of our beliefs.
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: Gunhaven August 11, 2010, 06:50:38 PM
http://geneticanomaly.com/RPG-Motivational/slides/dwarf.html
Sounds like a disappointing dwarf to me.
Sounds like a REAL DWARF (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/) to me.
What kind of terrible dwarf doesn't drink alcohol or live in a cave? I mean, next you'll be telling me that the dwarves have decided to go live in the trees with the elves.
[spoiler](http://www.pequetele.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/david20el20gnomo20la20pelicula1.jpg) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_el_gnomo)

I suppose technically he's a gnome, but he looks more like a dwarf.[/spoiler]

Agita, always shaking the foundations of our beliefs.
I refuse to believe it.  Dwarves will remain drunkards, Elves will remain Arrogant and Secretive, Humans will remain Bossy, and Orcs will continue to be slaughtered by the previous three.  But since we're on the topic of breaking down stereotypes is the Demilich a former Orc?
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: weenog August 11, 2010, 06:53:03 PM
http://geneticanomaly.com/RPG-Motivational/slides/dwarf.html
Sounds like a disappointing dwarf to me.
Sounds like a REAL DWARF (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/) to me.
What kind of terrible dwarf doesn't drink alcohol or live in a cave? I mean, next you'll be telling me that the dwarves have decided to go live in the trees with the elves.
[spoiler](http://www.pequetele.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/david20el20gnomo20la20pelicula1.jpg) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_el_gnomo)

I suppose technically he's a gnome, but he looks more like a dwarf.[/spoiler]

Must be 4th edition dwarves.  Look, there's no beard on the little girl.  Or maybe she's diseased, the poor dear.  :(
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: The_Mad_Linguist August 11, 2010, 07:17:57 PM
Nah, they're gnomes.  Dwarf/Elf hybrids.
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: Kuroimaken August 11, 2010, 07:31:36 PM
So THAT's why they hate each other's guts!

Gnomes are too chubby for elven likes and not bearded enough for Dwarven tastes!
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: weenog August 11, 2010, 07:34:10 PM
And half-elf half-humans whine about not fitting in...
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: The_Mad_Linguist August 11, 2010, 07:40:16 PM
So THAT's why they hate each other's guts!

Gnomes are too chubby for elven likes and not bearded enough for Dwarven tastes!
Dwarves hate elves. 

Elves hate dwarves. 

Both hate gnomes. 

Gnomes hate gnomes.

Everyone hates gnomes.
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: Agita August 11, 2010, 07:54:36 PM
Gnomes hate gnomes.
You just gave me an idea for an emo gnome character.
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: The_Mad_Linguist August 11, 2010, 07:59:51 PM
Gnomes hate gnomes.
You just gave me an idea for an emo gnome character.

Gnome Ease Involves Ion Engine -> Neon Genesis Evangelion Movie
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: skydragonknight August 11, 2010, 08:11:28 PM
Gnomes hate gnomes.
You just gave me an idea for an emo gnome character.

Blood Magus or Hexblade.
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: McPoyo August 11, 2010, 09:26:11 PM
Gnomes hate gnomes.
You just gave me an idea for an emo gnome character.

Blood Magus or Hexblade.
Both
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: Akkristor August 11, 2010, 10:18:51 PM
If you want poetic justice, have one of its greatest strength's be a weakness; its undead nature renders it vulnerable to turning.  I've got archived a 20 level cleric based build which can reliably turn a demi-lich.  It was from the 2004 CO contest at 339, which is now lost to board wipes, but if a character 10 levels lower can insta-kill it...

Why use turning, if you can use rebuking?
Is there an equivalent to Greater Turning?
because intelligent undead get a resist check every day.
Interesting houserule.

Because that's exactly what this is: a houserule.  RAW, there is no check to resist control.  They just are controlled.

A Demilich is not.  Turning is a supernatural ability.  They are immune.
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: snakeman830 August 11, 2010, 10:55:56 PM
If you want poetic justice, have one of its greatest strength's be a weakness; its undead nature renders it vulnerable to turning.  I've got archived a 20 level cleric based build which can reliably turn a demi-lich.  It was from the 2004 CO contest at 339, which is now lost to board wipes, but if a character 10 levels lower can insta-kill it...

Why use turning, if you can use rebuking?
Is there an equivalent to Greater Turning?
because intelligent undead get a resist check every day.
Interesting houserule.

Because that's exactly what this is: a houserule.  RAW, there is no check to resist control.  They just are controlled.

A Demilich is not.  Turning is a supernatural ability.  They are immune.
They also have +20 Turn Resistance, so make of that what you will.
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: Bozwevial August 11, 2010, 11:21:50 PM
Gnomes hate gnomes.
You just gave me an idea for an emo gnome character.

Blood Magus or Hexblade.
Both
With the dark companion ACF?
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: fuinjutsu August 12, 2010, 12:02:46 AM
Gnomes hate gnomes.
You just gave me an idea for an emo gnome character.

Blood Magus or Hexblade.
Both

Have you read blood magus's prereqs?
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: Kuroimaken August 12, 2010, 12:12:26 AM
Gnomes hate gnomes.
You just gave me an idea for an emo gnome character.

Gnome Ease Involves Ion Engine -> Neon Genesis Evangelion Movie
I hate that anagram.
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: Gunhaven August 12, 2010, 12:23:41 AM
Gnomes hate gnomes.
You just gave me an idea for an emo gnome character.

Gnome Ease Involves Ion Engine -> Neon Genesis Evangelion Movie
Did it ever get worked out how you could pilot things?  Was it just a construct that was specially made?
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: carnivore August 12, 2010, 02:27:03 PM
try this .... One-Shot in one Round...NO Save


Turning Cleric:

Human
Cloistered Cleric 21

Domains:
Animal
Sun
Knowledge

Feats:
Knowledge Devotion
Nymphs Kiss
Improved Turning :+1 Turn lvl
Quicken Turning
Exalted Turning: +3d6 untyped damage
Light of Aurifar :+2d6 fire damage
Empower Turning: +2d6 Turn Damage, -2 turn check
Divine Energy Focus: +2 Turn Chk, +2 Damage roll, +2 turn lvls higher for Destroy
Positive Energy Aura


Equipment:
21000gp +2 Heavy Mace with combined power of Rod of Defiance and Scepter of the Netherworld[spoiler]Rod of Defiance: This white cudgel-like rod can be used as a +2 heavy mace. All undead in a radius of 30 feet of the wielder who holds the rod of defiance are treated as if they had –4 turn resistance.
Moderate necromancy; CL 10th; Craft Rod, class ability to turn or rebuke undead; Price 13,000 gp.

Scepter of the Netherworld: This plain steel baton contains several glyphs incised along its length that promise power over the undead. Anyone who holds the rod and has the power to turn or rebuke undead is treated as if three levels higher than his actual level when he uses his turning or rebuking power. Moderate necromancy; CL 10th; Craft Rod, class ability to turn or rebuke undead; Price 9,000 gp[/spoiler]
9000gp +1 Sacred Bracers
10100gp +1 Sacred Mithral Chain Shirt
9205gp +1 Sacred Darkwood Buckler
[spoiler]Sacred: A suit of armor or a shield with this quality assists only wearers who have the ability to turn or rebuke undead. Sacred armor or a sacred shield increases the owner’s effective level for the turning check by +2. Armor and shields with this ability are always specific to a deity and predominantly feature the god’s holy symbol.
Moderate conjuration; CL 8th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor,ability to turn or rebuke undead; Price +2 bonus.[/spoiler]
750gp Flametouched Iron Holy Symbol (Eberron Campaign Setting, 750 gp)+1 effective turning level
60000gp Redeemed Darkskull[spoiler]Redeemed Darkskull: When a darkskull is redeemed, tracings of silver forming holy symbols and words appear in its surface. It emanates a hallow effect rather than unhallow, still with no additional spell effect tied to it.
Moderate evocation; CL 9th; Craft Wondrous Item, hallow, redeemer must be good; Price 60,000 gp; Cost to Redeem 2,400XP; Weight 5 lb.[/spoiler]
11000gp Phylactery of Undead Turning[spoiler]Phylactery of Undead Turning: This item is a boon to any character able to turn undead, allowing him to do so as if his class level were four levels higher than it actually is.Moderate necromancy [good]; CL 10th; Craft Wondrous Item, 10th-level cleric; Price 11,000 gp[/spoiler]
3000gp Lyre of the Restful Soul[spoiler]Lyre of the Restful Soul:
When played, this lyre weakens the ability of undead creatures to resist turning or rebuking.The drummer makes a DC 15 Perform(string instruments) check. If successful, all undead within 60 feet take a –4 penalty to turn resistance (which can lower their effective HD for turning to below their normal HD, but not lower than 1) for 10 rounds.
Moderate necromancy; CL 10th; Craft Wondrous Item, able to turn or rebuke undead as a 10th-level cleric; Price 3,000 gp;Weight 5 lb.[/spoiler]
800gp Ephod of Authority[spoiler]
EPHOD OF AUTHORITY
Price (Item Level): 800 gp (3rd)
Body Slot: Torso
Caster Level: 5th
Aura: Faint; (DC 17) necromancy
Activation: —
Weight: 2 lb.
This silver vestment is set with a circle of nine semiprecious gemstones surrounding a raised, silver hemisphere. While wearing an ephod of authority, your effective cleric level is treated as one higher than your actual level for the purpose of turning (but not rebuking or commanding) undead.
Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Item, turn undead, possession of a piece of the set.Cost to Create: 400 gp, 32 XP, 1 day.[/spoiler]
9000gp Moonfriend Ring(Expedition to castle Ravenloft) +3 level for Turn Checks..
3000gp Talisman of Undead Mastery[spoiler]TALISMAN OF UNDEAD MASTERY
Price (Item Level): 3,000 gp (7th)
Body Slot: — (held)
Caster Level: 3rd
Aura: Faint; (DC 16) necromancy
Activation: Swift (mental)
Weight: —
This tarnished silver skull fi ts comfortably in a human hand.
A talisman of undead mastery benefits any character capable of either turning or rebuking undead. The talisman has 3 charges, which are renewed each day at dawn. Spending 1 or more charges increases your effective cleric level for the purpose of a single turn or rebuke undead check, which must be made before the end of your turn.
1 charge: Increase effective turning level by 2.
2 charges: Increase effective turning level by 3.
3 charges: Increase effective turning level by 4.
Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Item, command undead. Cost to Create: 1,500 gp, 120 XP, 3 days.
[/spoiler]


Turn check .... assuming Cha 30

1d20 +18 (10 Cha + 2 Knowledge(Religion) + 2 Nymphs Kiss +4 Sacred(Darkskull))

will max out with a roll of 3 or better .... will assume rolling a one ...Turns at Cleric Level +3 +Modifiers :

21 Cleric
+3 Turn Check
+4 Talisman
+3 Ring
+1 Ephod
+4 Phylactery
+1 Holy Symbol
+6 Armor(combined total)
+3 Scepter
+1 Imp Turning
+2 Divine Energy Focus

49 HD ... to Destroy ..... or 24HD destroyed if they come into contact with Positive Energy Aura ..... this is actually higher ... he can subtract 4 from thier Turn Resistance then give a -4 Penalty to turn resistance .... thus he can affect 57HD Undead ... Destroyed with Greater Turning

this is not even maxed out yet .... it is easy to do Far More


 :D
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: Gunhaven August 12, 2010, 04:05:14 PM
The problem isn't entirely destroying it I think.  I'm pretty sure the problem is getting rid of his several thousand Phylacteries because he used the Epic Spell that was discussed earlier, was in a Faerun book.
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: veekie August 12, 2010, 04:40:53 PM
Maybe an epic spell specifically designed to locate and summon all phylacteries on the planet to the caster? Specifically designed to break through wards.
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: The_Mad_Linguist August 12, 2010, 05:34:36 PM
The problem isn't entirely destroying it I think.  I'm pretty sure the problem is getting rid of his several thousand Phylacteries because he used the Epic Spell that was discussed earlier, was in a Faerun book.
Hit hit with spark of life via factotum, then knowledge devotion away his connection to his phylacteries.
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: McPoyo August 12, 2010, 05:39:56 PM
I'm assuming you meant Knowledge Affiliation, there.
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: skydragonknight August 12, 2010, 05:55:49 PM
Drunken Master(improvised weapons)/Psionic user. If there's more than one of them, then it's not unique, and can be called with call weaponry. Just call weaponry: Bob's Phylactery after it's dead and use a recharge setup to call them all.
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: fuinjutsu August 12, 2010, 07:07:03 PM
I'm assuming you meant Knowledge Affiliation, there.

where is that from?
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: Ithamar August 12, 2010, 07:07:45 PM
Complete Champion... I think.
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: McPoyo August 12, 2010, 07:18:13 PM
Complete Champion... I think.
Correct, top tier ability for one of the affiliations.
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: The_Mad_Linguist August 15, 2010, 04:18:43 AM
Wait wait.  Best idea ever.

Use his skull as ranged ammunition.  If you hit with him, he's destroyed!
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: fuinjutsu August 15, 2010, 07:04:26 AM
Wait wait.  Best idea ever.

Use his skull as ranged ammunition.  If you hit with him, he's destroyed!

 :lmao
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: nijineko October 03, 2010, 04:24:00 PM
we found another method as well in the tomb of horrors adventure... there is that gem that grants a wish, which then destroys the wisher and anyone named in the wish. if you do your research ahead of time, that could be rather extensive.
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: PhaedrusXY October 04, 2010, 02:38:28 AM
we found another method as well in the tomb of horrors adventure... there is that gem that grants a wish, which then destroys the wisher and anyone named in the wish. if you do your research ahead of time, that could be rather extensive.
lol WTF!

1) Casts Charm Person on Bob the random NPC
2) "Yo, Bob! I got this awesome gem here that grants wishes! You can have one if you just make sure to mention all of these people when wishing!"
3) Whips out list
4) "Oh yeah, make sure you DON'T name me! Have fun with that wish!"
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: The_Mad_Linguist October 04, 2010, 02:43:59 AM
It's a diamond made out of carbon from death notes.
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: Brainpiercing October 04, 2010, 06:41:53 AM
Not sure if this has been mentioned before:

An Iron Colossus has an (ex) AMF. Shapechange into one and grapple the damn demilich. The weird thing is: There is no mention anywhere (IIRC) that his flight is even supernatural. You may need some shenanigans to Shapechange into one, though. IF you can make the shenanigans without limits, take the Hagunemnon instead and pick the four greatest Ex (or Su?) abilities of all times to turn into Superman. Do this as a Cheater of Mystra, of course.

Alternatively, stick him in the (ex) AMF, shoot him full of non-magical arrows until the skull is destroyed. Now Gate in that infallible tracking hound that hunts Kelemvor (I think?) and diplomance him into believing that he definitely needs to track that phylactery. Now hope he does it quickly enough before the demilich reforms.
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: McPoyo October 04, 2010, 09:17:16 AM
Not sure if this has been mentioned before:

An Iron Colossus has an (ex) AMF. Shapechange into one and grapple the damn demilich. The weird thing is: There is no mention anywhere (IIRC) that his flight is even supernatural. You may need some shenanigans to Shapechange into one, though. IF you can make the shenanigans without limits, take the Hagunemnon instead and pick the four greatest Ex (or Su?) abilities of all times to turn into Superman. Do this as a Cheater of Mystra, of course.

Alternatively, stick him in the (ex) AMF, shoot him full of non-magical arrows until the skull is destroyed. Now Gate in that infallible tracking hound that hunts Kelemvor (I think?) and diplomance him into believing that he definitely needs to track that phylactery. Now hope he does it quickly enough before the demilich reforms.
it was mask, not Kelemvor.
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: SorO_Lost October 04, 2010, 04:52:38 PM
7 pages? That's it? Come on, this is the typical how do you kill a 20th level wizard thread.

And if you skip that forum BS, pick your poison or add to the choices.
Blast it with Orb of X.
Just attack it (when has DR 15 & 120hp ever really kept anything alive?).
Cast an epic spell on it (note-default demilich is two levels short of even being able to take the epic spell feat).
Cast a Permanent Anti-Magic Field on it, glue it to your staff, and have the coolest hiking stick ever that doubles up as a disjunction bomb.
As above with less anti and more glued inside a cone, gain 8/day Trap The Soul and such with a proper diplomacy check.
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: Brainpiercing October 04, 2010, 05:08:04 PM
7 pages? That's it? Come on, this is the typical how do you kill a 20th level wizard thread.

And if you skip that forum BS, pick your poison or add to the choices.
Blast it with Orb of X.
Just attack it (when has DR 15 & 120hp ever really kept anything alive?).
Cast an epic spell on it (note-default demilich is two levels short of even being able to take the epic spell feat).
Cast a Permanent Anti-Magic Field on it, glue it to your staff, and have the coolest hiking stick ever that doubles up as a disjunction bomb.
As above with less anti and more glued inside a cone, gain 8/day Trap The Soul and such with a proper diplomacy check.
A good many of those don't work if you take the Magic Immunity literally, which I believe is the point of this thread.
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: McPoyo October 04, 2010, 05:24:28 PM
7 pages? That's it? Come on, this is the typical how do you kill a 20th level wizard thread.

And if you skip that forum BS, pick your poison or add to the choices.
Blast it with Orb of X.
Just attack it (when has DR 15 & 120hp ever really kept anything alive?).
Cast an epic spell on it (note-default demilich is two levels short of even being able to take the epic spell feat).
Cast a Permanent Anti-Magic Field on it, glue it to your staff, and have the coolest hiking stick ever that doubles up as a disjunction bomb.
As above with less anti and more glued inside a cone, gain 8/day Trap The Soul and such with a proper diplomacy check.
A good many of those don't work if you take the Magic Immunity literally, which I believe is the point of this thread.
Only if you don't properly update the Magic Immunity from 3.0 (which the demilich is) to 3.5. In 3.0 it worked the way it's stated in the template list. In 3.5 it no longer does. It's really a moot point.

Also, only one of those doesn't work at that point: Blast it with Orb of X. Everything else still works.
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: Lo77o October 04, 2010, 06:06:16 PM
I'm bringing this up and hoping that the DM lets me get away with a +1 Flaming Horse.  Just putting that out there.

(http://www.jonco48.com/blog/gay_20horse.jpg)
: Re: Demilich weaknesses
: Brainpiercing October 04, 2010, 07:23:58 PM
holy crap...