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The Thinktank => Min/Max It! => Topic started by: Athanasie on July 06, 2010, 09:32:41 AM

Title: Shadowchar help needed plz
Post by: Athanasie on July 06, 2010, 09:32:41 AM
Hello, new here ^^

Plz, donīt be angry with me, if this topic is already somewhere, but I got always an failure, when I try to search.

I would like to build a shadowrunner/-stalker char...

My first char of this was a mix of Dark-One and Feral with Shadowdancer, Assassine, monk, rogue and vow of poverty.

But I had an higher lvl just from Race +6 or so.

Thats a little bit much I think.

Maybe there are better options. A friend of me has all 3.5 books.

My char shall be no Allrounder, but damn specialised in surviving, surviving at his own. At first he, then the others, I want to play this out, that he learn to go with others in RP later.

My first Char-build had a damn high hide and move silently Bonus from Dark one), so he could sneak, hide in plain sight, sneak, and so on....if he gets hittes, he could run away and heal with fast healing +2 (from feral) and then attack again.

I would be happy if you could help me building a char similar to this, but nice optimized (or maybe DM crying ^^), but with more classes or prestigeclasses, which would be good. Not so high from the race.

All I still want is fast healing (or regeneration) and a very high hide in plain sight...and maybe, if possible Vow of poverty.
Maybe an Umbra could be used? Dunno, if good?

I played only the 3.0 rules, so donīt have any idea of the 3.5. But if you say me, where to read, I get the books from my friend :)



Thank you very very much for all this reading, and for your time reading and posting :-)
Thxq
Title: Re: Shadowchar help needed plz
Post by: PhaedrusXY on July 06, 2010, 12:24:38 PM
I'd suggest a Dark (Tome of Magic) Whisper Gnome (Races of Stone) with the Troll-blooded feat (some dragon magazine, and Dragon Compendium, IIRC). You'll have hide in plain sight, great hide and move silently modifiers, and regeneration 1. You'll be fatigued in sunlight, unless you take another feat to counteract that. I know there is one that works for that, but I forget the name...
Title: Re: Shadowchar help needed plz
Post by: Athanasie on July 06, 2010, 12:56:12 PM
daylight adaption?
Title: Re: Shadowchar help needed plz
Post by: PhaedrusXY on July 06, 2010, 12:57:47 PM
daylight adaption?
That sounds right.
Title: Re: Shadowchar help needed plz
Post by: Athanasie on July 06, 2010, 01:05:23 PM
what classes and feats would be good?
Title: Re: Shadowchar help needed plz
Post by: PhaedrusXY on July 06, 2010, 01:13:48 PM
Rogue and Swordsage are the most obvious ones... It depends on if you want to go ranged or melee for combat, too.
Title: Re: Shadowchar help needed plz
Post by: Risada on July 06, 2010, 01:16:45 PM
what classes and feats would be good?

If you are going to be stealthy, pick a class that benefits from it - Rogue or Factotum (from Dungeonscape), for example - and go to town while you SA people to death from the shadows  :smirk

Should you choose this route, don't forget to grab some ranks in UMD and carry some utility wands - Grave Strike (SpC), Hunter's Eye (PHB2, IIRC)...
Title: Re: Shadowchar help needed plz
Post by: Sohala on July 06, 2010, 01:17:19 PM
Dark, Shadow, Chameleon, Wisper Gnome, that is +4, so if you wanted smaller I might drop shadow.

If you go troll-blooded, I suggest a level in Horizon Walker, select desert for you terrain.

Swordsage 2, late enough to get assassin's stance. The assassin's spells probably wouldn't be a bad addition. With Int in you stats now, a few levels of Factotum can't be all bad.
Title: Re: Shadowchar help needed plz
Post by: ksbsnowowl on July 06, 2010, 01:28:32 PM
Just taking the Shadow Creature template from Lords of Madness seems to get you what you want; it's the beefed up version of the dark template, and one of the options is fast healing 2.  +2 LA, and it also gets you Cold resist 5+HD (max 15), total concealment at all times except under full natural daylight and daylight, and +6 racial mod to move silently.  You also get +50% speed, and increasing abilities as you gain HD (plane shift to/from Plane of Shadow 1/day, DR 5/magic, +2 luck bonus to all saves, evasion, fast healing 2, Mirror Image 1/day.)

Does the Dark template give you a bonus to hide?  I guess I find it odd that one is supposed to be a weaker version of the other, but they might give bonuses to different skills...
Title: Re: Shadowchar help needed plz
Post by: Athanasie on July 06, 2010, 01:36:45 PM
Cool, thank you all for the posts till here  :)

I want to go for melee combat. And I like many attacks...maybe a monklvl and then taking 2 kamas? With Sneak would be great, isnīt it?
Ok, I will look for the races, but I donīt want a small race. normal would be nice...or my picture wonīt work ;)

Which feats would be good, or feat combis?

Oh...and items....yeah...itemsuggestions would be great too :-)

Thank you very much.
Title: Re: Shadowchar help needed plz
Post by: ksbsnowowl on July 06, 2010, 02:26:07 PM
One interesting thing I've recently come across, in combination with the Troll-blooded feat, is the At Home in the Deep feat from Drow of the Underdark.  It requires that you have Darkvision and a Darkness spell-like ability (though not necessarily a racial SLA), and it allows you to see unhindered within a darkness spell/SLA.

Dipping a single level of Warlock would allow you to get the darkness SLA.  Just pick a race with darkvision.
Title: Re: Shadowchar help needed plz
Post by: Athanasie on July 06, 2010, 04:02:32 PM
How could it be possible to get more feats? I know only fighter or factotum lvls....but no tricks...are there some tricks? ^^
Title: Re: Shadowchar help needed plz
Post by: veekie on July 06, 2010, 04:13:54 PM
One interesting thing I've recently come across, in combination with the Troll-blooded feat, is the At Home in the Deep feat from Drow of the Underdark.  It requires that you have Darkvision and a Darkness spell-like ability (though not necessarily a racial SLA), and it allows you to see unhindered within a darkness spell/SLA.

Dipping a single level of Warlock would allow you to get the darkness SLA.  Just pick a race with darkvision.
Or you could just use the warlock invocation that grants you darkvision, including darkvision in magical darkness.
Title: Re: Shadowchar help needed plz
Post by: Athanasie on July 06, 2010, 04:27:25 PM
I see, the first thing I have to look at tomorrow is the race. Then I ask more ^^

Oh...the problem with my DM is, I am not allowed to use anything with the word "psion...". No races, no classes, no items....ok, maybe items.
Title: Re: Shadowchar help needed plz
Post by: PhaedrusXY on July 06, 2010, 04:33:33 PM
Oh...the problem with my DM is, I am not allowed to use anything with the word "psion...". No races, no classes, no items....ok, maybe items.
I want to go for melee combat. And I like many attacks...maybe a monklvl and then taking 2 kamas? With Sneak would be great, isnīt it?
Quote
Ok, I will look for the races, but I donīt want a small race. normal would be nice...or my picture wonīt work ;)


These are the kinds of things you should be telling us in the first post. Also: What level(s) are you starting and playing at? What books can you use? What things are banned? etc.
Title: Re: Shadowchar help needed plz
Post by: ksbsnowowl on July 06, 2010, 04:38:32 PM
Or you could just use the warlock invocation that grants you darkvision, including darkvision in magical darkness.
True, but that would require 2 levels of Warlock to get both.
Title: Re: Shadowchar help needed plz
Post by: Sohala on July 06, 2010, 04:43:58 PM
Or you could skip warlock completely and get ebon eyes and darkvision (caster level one of course) as continuous items.
Title: Re: Shadowchar help needed plz
Post by: Athanasie on July 06, 2010, 04:51:10 PM
These are the kinds of things you should be telling us in the first post. Also: What level(s) are you starting and playing at? What books can you use? What things are banned? etc.


Sorry :(
And I thought I have infos for the first post.

I "can" start, cauze its in the middle of a plot between lvl 10 till 12/13...
What do you mean with playing at? Which location or dungeon? Or with how many others I play and their chars?

I can use nearly every 3.5 Rule book, but nothing with psionics.
Title: Re: Shadowchar help needed plz
Post by: ksbsnowowl on July 06, 2010, 04:57:54 PM
What do you mean with playing at? Which location or dungeon? Or with how many others I play and their chars?
He means what level character are you making, and what levels do you think the campaign will run through.

It sounds like you are starting with a 10th level character, and plan for the adventure to last until you are 13th level.
Title: Re: Shadowchar help needed plz
Post by: Athanasie on July 06, 2010, 05:21:10 PM
Sorry, I am german ^^

The other Characterlvls are a lvl 11, a 12 and a 14. So I think I can have a 11 or 12 lvl char I think.

The adventure is a legendary underground city. So I need at least something to make light with, that I can hide in shadows then xD
The adventure goes till 20...or I am dead...depends how you help me, without you I am dead fast ;)
Title: Re: Shadowchar help needed plz
Post by: veekie on July 06, 2010, 05:24:39 PM
Level: 11th-12th, extends to 20th eventually
Abilities: Point Buy or Rolled? If rolled, what numbers?
Sources: All WotC non psionic published material
Concept: Sneaky-Stabbity.

That more or less right?
Any house rules in play?
Restrictions on race/alignment/etc?
Title: Re: Shadowchar help needed plz
Post by: Athanasie on July 06, 2010, 05:29:41 PM
Yes veekie, thank you very much. I am a little bit helpless, so thanks again.
I can roll the abilities, said the DM, but if you think buy is better, I would do this. If roll, I roll them tomorrow and post them :-)
Maybe there are some tricks too to raise my abilities? (Reading the dirty trick handbook at Moment xD)
Only 3.5 Rules without Psionics.

Concept: Sneaking, surviving (all) Char, the person he rescue at first is his self. Then him again, then nothing, then the rest...want to play it, how he learns....
Title: Re: Shadowchar help needed plz
Post by: PhaedrusXY on July 06, 2010, 05:35:45 PM
I can roll the abilities, said the DM, but if you think buy is better, I would do this. If roll, I roll them tomorrow and post them :-)
It depends on how you're rolling them, and the point buy you're using...
Title: Re: Shadowchar help needed plz
Post by: Athanasie on July 07, 2010, 05:52:04 AM
Good morning ^^

So, my stats rolled are: 14, 11, 17, 16, 12, 16...not bad, eh? :)
Or would it be better to buy?
Title: Re: Shadowchar help needed plz
Post by: Athanasie on July 07, 2010, 06:10:53 AM
I'd suggest a Dark (Tome of Magic) Whisper Gnome (Races of Stone) with the Troll-blooded feat (some dragon magazine, and Dragon Compendium, IIRC). You'll have hide in plain sight, great hide and move silently modifiers, and regeneration 1. You'll be fatigued in sunlight, unless you take another feat to counteract that. I know there is one that works for that, but I forget the name...


Hmm, I found some books about Magic, but not the Tome of magic. Is the book called so? And about dragons too, draconomicon, Dragonmagic, Dragons of Fearun, but no Dragon Compendium. Thats the names of the books?
And sorry, but what means IIRC? :bow

I even have the 3.5 Feat Bilbe, but didnīt find the Troll-blooded Feat :,(
Title: Re: Shadowchar help needed plz
Post by: Athanasie on July 07, 2010, 06:24:51 AM
Just taking the Shadow Creature template from Lords of Madness seems to get you what you want; it's the beefed up version of the dark template, and one of the options is fast healing 2.  +2 LA, and it also gets you Cold resist 5+HD (max 15), total concealment at all times except under full natural daylight and daylight, and +6 racial mod to move silently.  You also get +50% speed, and increasing abilities as you gain HD (plane shift to/from Plane of Shadow 1/day, DR 5/magic, +2 luck bonus to all saves, evasion, fast healing 2, Mirror Image 1/day.)

Does the Dark template give you a bonus to hide?  I guess I find it odd that one is supposed to be a weaker version of the other, but they might give bonuses to different skills...

Looked for the Shadow template, where is the Dark template?

Does it mean, that I can even take another "good for Shadow" race and use the Shadow template on it?
And can I forget the 1 Shadowdancer lvl then with the hide in plain sight or do I still have to take this lvl?
With Shadow template I get concealment, but I am not hidden, or? So they can still follow me, if I try to run away, canīt they?
And I canīt do sneaks with the hiding from Shadow template, or can I still do them? I didnīt read, that you hide....you can go in shadow and get consealment, but nothing more *confused*
Title: Re: Shadowchar help needed plz
Post by: ksbsnowowl on July 07, 2010, 09:35:25 AM
The Dark template is from "Tome of Magic." It has a mostly black cover, with a man sharing the same space as a bluish ephemeral spirit. The Dark Template is also listed briefly in the Forgotten Realms adventure "Cormyr: The Tearing of the Weave," p. 152, though it might just be a pared-down description.

Troll-Blooded isn't from Dragon Compendium; it was only in a Dragon Magazine, though I don't know the issue number.
Dragon Compendium was a hard-cover book published by Piazo/Wizards of the Coast, and is an updated compilation of several things throughout Dragon Magazine's run, even from 1st and 2nd edition.

Looking at the Dark Template, I see it does give skill boosts to both Hide and Move Silently, Resist Cold 10, +10 movement, and hide in plain sight.
Title: Re: Shadowchar help needed plz
Post by: Athanasie on July 07, 2010, 09:47:15 AM
Damn, donīt have the Tome of Magic and Tearing the wave :(. But I found the Whisper gnome :)

What does Troll-blooded feat?

Which medium size Char would be good? I had a Dark One, but dunno where I found it and now I am lost.
What do you think?
Title: Re: Shadowchar help needed plz
Post by: PhaedrusXY on July 07, 2010, 01:29:10 PM
Damn, donīt have the Tome of Magic and Tearing the wave :(. But I found the Whisper gnome :)

What does Troll-blooded feat?

Which medium size Char would be good? I had a Dark One, but dunno where I found it and now I am lost.
What do you think?
I think Dark One was from the Fiend Folio. You can find many feats from Dragon magazine as well as many D&D books at www.crystalkeep.com. I think Troll-blooded is on there. It gives you regeneration 1 (Fire and Acid) at the cost of making you fatigued while in sunlight.
Title: Re: Shadowchar help needed plz
Post by: ksbsnowowl on July 07, 2010, 01:55:07 PM
Damn, donīt have the Tome of Magic and Tearing the wave :(. But I found the Whisper gnome :)

What does Troll-blooded feat?

Which medium size Char would be good? I had a Dark One, but dunno where I found it and now I am lost.
What do you think?
I think Dark One was from the Fiend Folio. You can find many feats from Dragon magazine as well as many D&D books at www.crystalkeep.com. I think Troll-blooded is on there. It gives you regeneration 1 (Fire and Acid) at the cost of making you fatigued while in sunlight.
Dark Ones are from the Fiend Folio.  There are two types.  Dark Creepers are small, have 1 HD, and +4 LA.
Dark Stalkers are Medium, have 3 HD, and +5 LA.

There is a sidebar or "Dark Ones as Characters" section that confuses matters though, as it says a first level Rogue Dark Creeper is a 5th level character (correct, as it has only one HD, and thus is replaced by class HD), but also says a first level rogue Dark Stalker is an ECL 6 character.

Here is the text of the Troll-Blooded feat, though I am missing a few of the role-play requirements (they were Human, from 3 different human regions of Greyhawk).

Troll-Blooded [General]
You are from a troll bloodline.
Prerequisite: Toughness.
Benefit: You gain regeneration 1 as an extraordinary ability. Fire and acid deal normal damage to you. If you lose a limb or a body part, the lost portion regrows in 3d6 days. You can reattach the severed member as a full-round action by holding it to the stump. You are fatigued while exposed to sunlight.
Special: You can take this feat at 1st level only.
Title: Re: Shadowchar help needed plz
Post by: Athanasie on July 07, 2010, 05:45:35 PM
Thx, I will look for them :)

Ok, I had some thoughts....

I would like to have a charakter with:
- sr
- bonus to hide and ms from race
- fast healing at least 2 or regeneration
- ability boost at least in dex (more would be nice ^^) from race
- natural armor (no must have)
- the monk ability to have wisdom (or Int, if this is possible?) modifier on ac class, but no real monk, I would like to take 2 Kukri as weapons
- many feats, that I can take exotic weapons, weapon focus, improved crit (or a weapon which has sharp(?))
- evasion (even better improved)
- the ability or spell to get higher skill in hide and ms
- hips
- higher speed
-and all other stuff what would be great for shadowhide (what your ideas are...)

Is THIS all possible?

So ppplllllleeeeaaaasssseeeee help me....I beg you!  :shrug :scared :ninja
Title: Re: Shadowchar help needed plz
Post by: Athanasie on July 08, 2010, 08:33:25 AM
I found out that vampires have +8 to hide and ms and fast healing 5. Is there a version of a template or so without all these transform into swarn or wolf, dominate and this and has a lower LA?
Title: Re: Shadowchar help needed plz
Post by: Ivory Knight on July 08, 2010, 09:43:19 AM
Some of your features can be gained from Classes/Prestigeclasses.
Polymorph or Wildshape into any Form with multiple natural Weapons = pretty decent Sneak Attacks, even better with Skirmish(easier to trigger, trades lower damage for AC-Bonus).
Most Shapeshifters get Natural Armor, but your stats are determined by the average of your new form(Exception: Draconic Polymorph boosts Str & Con).

ATM I don't have the time to flesh out a build, but likely includes:
Shifter(Races of Eberron, MM III), Hengeyokai(Oriental Adventures) or Changeling(Eberron) with some low LA template applied
Druid, Wildshape Ranger(Alternate Class Feature from SRD/Unearthed Arcana) or Shapeshifter(PrC from Oriental Adventures)
Nature's Warrior(Complete Warrior), Warshaper(same book) or Feral Template(Savage Species, 3.0 and likely to be disallowed by DM) for fast healing
Swordsage(Tome of Battle) for Assasins Stance(2d6 sneak) & Wis to AC, Scout(Complete Adventurer) or Halfling Monk(Races of the Wild) for Skirmish

Rogue/ Hexblade can get you Mettle & Evasion
Title: Re: Shadowchar help needed plz
Post by: ksbsnowowl on July 08, 2010, 10:28:02 AM
I found out that vampires have +8 to hide and ms and fast healing 5. Is there a version of a template or so without all these transform into swarn or wolf, dominate and this and has a lower LA?
The half vampire from Libris Mortis has only +1 LA (opposed to the Vampire's +8), gets you fast healing 1 (but only up to half your hp's, then it stops working), racial bonuses (+2) to Bluff, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, and Spot, DR 5/Magic or Silver, Resist Cold 5, Resist Electricity 5, grants improved initiative, and gets you one other ability (children of the night or a charm gaze).  Oh, and +2 Str, Dex, and Cha. And +2 Natural Armor.

All that without the pesky death-by-sunlight thing, and the horrendous Level Adjustment.

That, paired with the Troll-Blooded feat, and possibly the Dark Template, wouldn't be too bad, especially if it was ruled that the racial bonuses to skills stacked (and they should, since they come from different racial "sources".)
Title: Re: Shadowchar help needed plz
Post by: Athanasie on July 08, 2010, 10:38:57 AM
Cool, thank you very much, you both :)

The LA from Half-Vampire is +2, Challenge Rating is +1. But for my PC its LA, isnīt it?

But I still canīt find the Dark template :,(
I have no books with "Tome of..."

@ Ivory Knight, which classes or prestige classes would you think of?

Can I find the Feral in another book too?


And which classes give Bonus feats? Doensīt matter, if just from a list or all...

Thx again.
Title: Re: Shadowchar help needed plz
Post by: Ivory Knight on July 10, 2010, 03:46:07 PM
Yes, for LA matters for PC and CR is or Monsters, Half Vampire is actually half decent(pun intended).

The Dark Template IS in Tome of Magic, Unapproachable East(Forgotten Realms) has the Shadowwalker(Upside: Spellike Abilities; Downside: No HiPS & Light Blindness).

Emphasis mine(bolded text):
Quote
I would like to have a charakter with:
- sr
No, you don't want this permanently. Get a Cloak, if you want it in some situations.
- bonus to hide and ms from race
Just take something small, Whisper Gnome comes to mind.
- fast healing at least 2 or regeneration
Troll Blooded(Greyhawk Regional Feat) was from Dragon #319, only regeneration 1(fire & acid)
Nature's Warrior(fast healing 1, while wildshaped) and Warshaper(fast healing 2, while not in your true form) are Prestigeclasses from Complete Warrior

- ability boost at least in dex (more would be nice ^^) from race
Whisper Gnomes have Dex& Con, Shifters Dex & one out of Str, Dex, Con or Wis while shifting only
- natural armor (no must have)
Shifting(Beasthide) and/or Wildshape(various), stack by the way. There are Feats for the Barbarian to gain NA while raging(IIRC in FR Unapproachable East & either Frostburn or Sandstorm)
- the monk ability to have wisdom (or Int, if this is possible?) modifier on ac class, but no real monk, I would like to take 2 Kukri as weapons
Tome of Battle: Swordsage 2(even in light armor!) & Complete Adventurer: Ninja; Duelist & Invisible Blade gain a weaker version(Int to AC, up to +1 per classlevel), Invisible Blade also uses TWF with Kukri.
- many feats, that I can take exotic weapons, weapon focus, improved crit (or a weapon which has sharp(?))
Swordsages gain multiple Weapon Foci, the otherwise bad PrC Master of Masks(Complete Scoundrel) gets all Exotic Weapons. Improved Crit doesn't stack with Kenn, so I'd take the lower investment and buy a Keen Weapon.
- evasion (even better improved)
A whole lot of classes get that somewhere, just check the Handbooks section. Out of the top of my head: Ninja, Rogue, Monk & Scout 2; Ranger ~9ish?
- the ability or spell to get higher skill in hide and ms
Factotum can boost any skill, Blade Meditation(Shadow Hand) gets +2 Hide; there might be more specific spells, but Invisibility & Flight should do fine.
- hips
Highlevel Ranger(IIRC 17), Shadowdancer 1 or Dark Creature Template. Maybe some PrC, I can't think of at the moment
- higher speed
Fast Movement(Class Feature), Fleet of Foot(Feat), Wildshape, some Spells: Expidious Retreat, Longstrider(Ranger), Alter Self/Polymorph/Shapechange
-and all other stuff what would be great for shadowhide (what your ideas are...)
Sneak Attack, or Skirmish to do some damage. Remember: If they can't see you, you get +2 to hit ;) Pounce or Shadowpounce to get off a Full Attack after moving/teleporting up to your foe.
I can't cram all these wishes into a few levels, so we need to figure out what's most important.
Wildshape, or no Wildshape?
With Wildshape, I'd go for LN (Strongheart, if FR)Halfling Monk 2(gets Skirmish, via Racial Level from RotW)/Druid 5(don't take the racial level, that nerfs your WS)/ Nature's Warrior 2(lose spell progression, gain fast healing 1)/Daggerspell Shaper X(9/10 Spellcasting, progresses WS & Skirmish)
or
any race Wildshape Ranger 5/Nature's Warrior X(could take all 5 levels, spell progression is not as important as for Druid)/ Swordsage 2/Daggerspell Shaper X
Skirmish, or Sneak Attack?
Skirmish(a little damage + a little AC) triggers by movement, Sneak(lots of damage) triggers by flanking/flatfooting enemies. Both have their merits.
Books allowed/available?
You said, you don't have any Tome of ..., so what Do you have?

Feral Template was AFAIK never reprinted in 3.5, so you're stuck with Savage Species.

Many Classes get Bonus Feats: Binder(IIRC 3-4 Feats), Cleric(2 Feats, just look at some Domains: Blindfight, Extend Spell, Extra Turning, Imp. Ini), Fighter(11 Feats), Monk(3 Feats), Warblade(IIRC 4 Feats), Wizard(4 Feats), a whole bunch of PrC(too many to list them all, sorry).
Title: Re: Shadowchar help needed plz
Post by: Athanasie on July 12, 2010, 06:23:57 AM
WOAH, Ivory Knight, thank you so much :)

That all helped me A LOT.

I have the following Books:

Feat/Class/Item/spell Bible
PHB 1+2, DM Guide 1+2, Monster Manual 1-5
Book of Exalted Deeds, Cityscape
Complete Adventurer, Complete Warrior, Complete Mage, Complete Arcane, Complete Champion, Complete Divine, Complete Scoundrel
Draconomicon, Dragon Magic 2
Drow of the Underdark, Dungeonscape, Elder Evils, Exemplars of Evils
Fiendish Codex 1+2, NO Fiendish Folio :(
Frostburn, Sandstorm, Stormwrack
Heroes of Battle, Heroes of Horror
Libris Mortis, Lords of Madness
Magic Item Compendium, Planar Handbook, Manual of the Planes
Races of......
Spell Compendium, Unearthed Arcana

and a few Forgotten Reals Adventures




Ok, some Questions ;-)

I am not allowed to use Swordsage, said the DM :(

Why no permanent spell resistance?
If an ally is casting on me, I can say, I have no sr, ir not?

I want to be a middle, no small charakter. So what about Umbra? Gets +8 in hiding and ms in shadow or darkness. But LA +4.
But I can build an lvl 12, so I still have 8 classes....?

And yeah, rogue would be nice. I want to sneak and hide, sneak, hide, sneak, hide .....
But I need the feats craven and Darkstalker, so I thought, 2 lvls fighter to get 2 Bonus feats for my weapons, weapon finesse and something else...
I woul like to take Kukris or if I can handle it better, my natural atacks, but then I have less attacks.

And I need rogue for sneak and Shadow Dancer, that I can hips? At least 1 lvl...or is there another way to hide? Then I donīt need to waste 3 feats for Shadow dancer oO

But again, thx very much, I will look for Ninja and Warshaper now, see, what they have.
Title: Re: Shadowchar help needed plz
Post by: Ivory Knight on July 13, 2010, 06:59:25 PM
A few answers:
IIRC you need to take a standard action, to lower your Spellresistance until your next turn. Can be pretty lethal, if you're at or below 0 hitpoints and your cleric can't breach your racial SR(if it was from a cloak, he could simply remove it as a move action).

Medium Races with Hide/MS are few and far between(ATM only Skulks from Races of Destiny come to mind).
Umbral is from Savage Species(with is not on your list of books). Also LA +4 is pretty expensive(you can't even buy it off completely. If you're not allowed to use buyoff, never ever take more than 1 or 2 LA.)

If you want Kukri(or really any Weapon), I'd go for TWF. Natural Weapons are gained either from Warshaper(enter with racial abilities, preferably Changeling due to unlimited duration & uses/day), or from Wildshape(great duration and versatility, for 1 feat at level 12 you can even get small/medium Dragon Forms).

Natural Attacks vs. TWF with Weapons comes down to:
3-5 Attacks: 1 at your highest Attack Bonus, the rest at -5(-2 with Multiattack)
or
2-7 Attacks: 2 at highest Attack Bonus -2, then 1-2 at -7(or: 5 more than your primary attacks), then 1-2 at -12, then 1 at -17(unlikely to hit, so I didn't bother with spending a fourth feat to get 8 attacks)

It pretty much boils down to
- Feat Investment needed, to be effective(TWF could get away with 1 Feat + Gloves of the balanced Hand from MIC, but some builds sink roundabout 10 feats into improving to-hit, damage and/or AC)
- Crit Range(usually better with weapons)
- Base Damage(can go either way, depends on size)
- Enhancement(magic weapons are cheaper, than to enchant all your Natural Attacks)
- Side Benefits(Natural Weapons can't be disarmed, or sundered. In Antimagic Zones a magic weapon still is a masterwork weapon and your feats are still in effect, while most shapechanging won't work due to being supernatural)
Title: Re: Shadowchar help needed plz
Post by: Athanasie on July 14, 2010, 05:48:19 AM
Good to have you :)

What means IIRC?

What do you mean with buyoff? Canīt Buy Umbra conplete off?
At moment I have the Race Umbrant from Races of Fearun. But +4 too. But it gets +8 to hide and ms in darkness and shadow. And in darkness or shadow +2 to attack and dmg, +4 to all saves, sr 11+char lvl (they could get me into sun, then I donīt have sr ^^, and heal me then ). I like this all, but +4 is really hard, like you said, yes.
But I canīt find the Dark One, so I have no other choice :(

I can build for lvl 12, so I have 8 lvl free.
At moment I would like some of the following classes: 4 lvl Ninja Spy (gets improved evasion and hips at lvl 4), but I need 2 monk or 2 rogue lvl for it.
4 lvl Chameleon, but for this I need to be human or Doppelganger :(.
3 lvl Fist of Forest, but for that I need to be 1 Monk to have ipmroved unarmed strike.
4 lvl Warshaper, but for this I need the ability to polymorph/change myself....
and maybe 1 lvl Horizon walker, if I take the trollblooded feat, or even 3 lvl Horizon walker to get +4 to ms and hide again.

Fist of the Forest and Warshaper are great for natural attacks, and Chameleon is just imba imo.

But no idea, if weapons are better, or claws...

But what do you think, I have absolut no idea and really frustateted and devasteted at moment :(
Title: Re: Shadowchar help needed plz
Post by: Ivory Knight on July 14, 2010, 09:22:11 AM
IIRC = If I Remember Correct(ly). Didn't check with SRD or Rulebooks, so I wasn't sure about the action needed to lower your Spellresistance.

I interpreted Umbra as Umbral Creature, a template from Savage Species. Don't have Races of Faerun handy today, so someone else will have to comment your choice of race :rollseyes
Over the course of 20 levels, you could buy off up to LA 3. Any higher, and you're stuck with it(only 1 reduction possible, if I read Unearthed Arcana right).

Packing ~15 levels of PrC into 12 levels is impossible, so you must choose what you want from the start and what can wait till you level up.
My choice would probably be Changeling(check with your DM, if you get access to Chameleon this way. Should work, since Changelings are Half Human/ Half Doppelganger)
Rogue 3-4/ Ranger or Monk(depends on your Fighting Style) 2/ any PrC you like best and can qualify
Leaves you with 6-7 Levels to divide on LA & PrC, provides a solid Skillbase and decent Combat abilities.
Double Evasion(Rogue/Monk), could trade 1 out of 2 for Spell Reflection and still get Imp. Evasion from PrC.
Title: Re: Shadowchar help needed plz
Post by: Athanasie on July 14, 2010, 09:43:03 AM
Argh, what are all these shirt cuts? Whats SRD and PrC now?

The problem with Changeling is, I nwould like to use the "run-and-hide" technik ^^
Get a high bonus in them and sneak and go stealthy around.
Title: Re: Shadowchar help needed plz
Post by: Saxony on July 14, 2010, 02:47:36 PM
Argh, what are all these shirt cuts? Whats SRD and PrC now?
PrC = Prestige Class.

SRD = System Reference Document. Its the free to use rules of DnD that can be published on the internet. Most notably here: http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/index.php

I would suggest going Savage Progression Ghost 1. It gives you Incorporeality which, among many other things, gives you infinite Move Silently check modifier. It really says you don't even have to roll for Move Silently checks. There's also the undead stuff, which of course gives you a crap ton of immunities. Telling one half of the stealth system to piss off will be the main bonus for you.

You can find the Savage Progression Ghost here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a

You can take just one level in it and get everything you need.

Take the Ghostly Grasp feat from [Libris Mortis] to be able to handle any object without Incorporeal problems. So you won't have to make everything Ghost Touch (+3 Armor Property from [Dungeon Master's Guide], meaning its super expensive) or whatever.

I think I just beat someone in some unofficial contest or something.... HAH!
Title: Re: Shadowchar help needed plz
Post by: Ivory Knight on July 14, 2010, 03:21:58 PM
SRD = System Reference Document, the part of D&D that is online (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/resources/systems/pennpaper/dnd35/soveliorsage/home.html)
PrC = Prestige Class

Still haven't got a look at Races of Faerun, but can't remember any 'Umbrant', is your race 'Shade' or 'Shadovar'(should be around page 140-150)?

Edit: Ninja'd by Saxony.
Title: Re: Shadowchar help needed plz
Post by: Tshern on July 14, 2010, 03:26:53 PM
Ivory Knight: Lowering spell resistance is tricky business. It says on the same page of the PHB that it takes a standard action and that you can lower it as a reaction to a spell being cast as a non-action. Go figure.
Title: Re: Shadowchar help needed plz
Post by: Athanasie on July 14, 2010, 03:30:41 PM
SRD = System Reference Document, the part of D&D that is online (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/resources/systems/pennpaper/dnd35/soveliorsage/home.html)
PrC = Prestige Class

Still haven't got a look at Races of Faerun, but can't remember any 'Umbrant', is your race 'Shade' or 'Shadovar'(should be around page 140-150)?

Edit: Ninja'd by Saxony.

Its about page 181. In german its called Umbrant. The picture is a humanoid with a sword and one hand raised, glowing. And the pic is nearly conplete black...
Title: Re: Shadowchar help needed plz
Post by: ksbsnowowl on July 15, 2010, 02:26:31 AM
SRD = System Reference Document, the part of D&D that is online (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/resources/systems/pennpaper/dnd35/soveliorsage/home.html)
PrC = Prestige Class

Still haven't got a look at Races of Faerun, but can't remember any 'Umbrant', is your race 'Shade' or 'Shadovar'(should be around page 140-150)?

Edit: Ninja'd by Saxony.

Its about page 181. In german its called Umbrant. The picture is a humanoid with a sword and one hand raised, glowing. And the pic is nearly conplete black...
Its the Shade.  Saw the pic, and it's what he describes (it also gets the SR, etc).

What do you mean with buyoff? Canīt Buy [shade] conplete[ly] off?
Not by 20th level.
Quote
sr 11+char lvl (they could get me into sun, then I donīt have sr ^^, and heal me then ).
Shades have Fast Healing 2, so emergency healing would be the only problem.  You'll auto-stabilize and wake up if you go unconscious.
Quote
At moment I would like some of the following classes:
4 lvl Ninja Spy (gets improved evasion and hips at lvl 4), but I need 2 monk or 2 rogue lvl for it.
4 lvl Chameleon, but for this I need to be human or Doppelganger :(.
A human-based Shade should still qualify for Chameleon, as Shade is an acquired template, and you very specifically start out as human (you would even produce human offspring).
Quote
3 lvl Fist of Forest, but for that I need to be 1 Monk to have ipmroved unarmed strike.
No you don't.  Improved Unarmed Strike is a feat anyone can take.  It's in the Player's Handbook.

I would suggest going Savage Progression Ghost 1. It gives you Incorporeality which, among many other things, gives you infinite Move Silently check modifier.
There are other ways of getting incorporeality, that may be more tasteful to the likes of his DM.  Telthor is one example.  Just make sure to pair it with some form of regeneration or fast healing.  It also has the benefit of keeping a Con score.
Title: Re: Shadowchar help needed plz
Post by: Athanasie on July 15, 2010, 05:38:22 AM
Thx for your answer :-)
But I still donīt know, what you mean with, buy off.....

What do you think about the shade, is he good?
I think, he is good enough for what I want.
I read the Dark Ones (finally), but found only LA +4 for Creeper and LA +5 for Stalker oO

then I can take a Shade too (Umbrant in german, but there is the race Umbra too, noticed now, that these are similar, but different races lol, weird germany ^_^)
Title: Re: Shadowchar help needed plz
Post by: ksbsnowowl on July 15, 2010, 04:27:25 PM
Thx for your answer :-)
But I still donīt know, what you mean with, buy off.....
Level Adjustment buy-off.  It's a way to reduce the hindrance of level adjustment.  Anything above +3 LA cannot be fully eliminated by 20th level.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm
Title: Re: Shadowchar help needed plz
Post by: Athanasie on July 19, 2010, 06:15:35 AM
So, here I am again :-)

I mda my char now and would like to know, what could be made better?

I start as human and at lvl 5 I change to Shade. (In description of shade: no char lower than lvl 5)

First lvl was rogue, for skillpoints, feat God-sight
3 lvl Duskblade for arcane channeling and more at-will spells, feat is craven
Then 2 lvl Warlock for invocations, eldritch blast and the invocation, seeing invis and cast darkness at will. Feat is deeper darkness (or so), that I can cast absolute darkness at will.
As Shade I can see through any magical darkness without problems.
1 Roge and 1 Assassin for maximum skillpoints and death attack + poison use. Feat is Dark stalker

So I am lvl 12 with 8 charakter levels, means I get 2d6 sneak attack with +8 from craven, when sneaking, can cast invis (from Shade) and Deeper Darkness at will and have with items 30+ in hide and ms.
Any other infos needed?

What do you think of this build? Good, bad made?
Title: Re: Shadowchar help needed plz
Post by: Ivory Knight on July 19, 2010, 06:59:40 AM
So you can detect [pretty much anything important], hide from it and strike from the darkness at range or with melee weapons.
I'd put you on par with a straight Rogue ~10, slightly above a Bard and way below any full casting class or optimized melee build of the same level.
Can survive at ECL 12, can even outshine the rest off his group in survivability (Heroic Destiny & Fearless Destiny from Races of Destiny may be feat choices for you, to emphasize this even more)

I wouldn't take 2 different Spellprogressions and Warlock with that high a LA, but you likely dont care about getting higher level spells?
Try to get into Unseen Seer(Complete Mage), to advance your choice of casting(mine would be Duskblade) and sneak attack.
Or if you want to focus on ranged combat, use Eldritch theurge for Warlock/caster progression of choice(Duskblade again, don't know of any worthwhile area damage spells on the Assasin's list).
You can even mix my two suggestions(4 levels each Prestigeclass), but again it might be less powerful than to choose one and complete it.

I'd suggest getting more mobility(flight, short range teleport, or at the very least spider climb), likely from invocations(feat or advancement via PrC).
Title: Re: Shadowchar help needed plz
Post by: PhaedrusXY on July 19, 2010, 01:15:14 PM
I don't remember Shade being worth anywhere near the LA it was given. The flavor text is cool, but it is lacking in abilities that are worth LA +4. So it's basically a trap, and you fell for it, even after asking us what templates were good. There is a reason no one suggested Shade. :P

Also, 3.5 Darkness (and Deeper Darkness) don't actually create "real" darkness. They should be renamed "Dimness" instead, because that's basically what they make (Shadowy Illumination = 20% miss chance, and you can still "see" in it well enough to target just fine).
Title: Re: Shadowchar help needed plz
Post by: Athanasie on July 19, 2010, 02:56:25 PM
Thx both for your answers.

@ Ivory Knight: I can see invis and go into invis as Shade. So, yes, I can see nearly all and strike from my Hiding. I think, permament and unlimited invis is really good, or not? I would like to go into melee.

You mean 10 Lvl rogue and 2 lvl bard? Then I canīt hide in a combat. With Shade I can go invis or cast darkness or just teleport away.
And Heroic Destiny is only 1 time per day, this isnīt really great imo, is it?

I donīt want to go with higher spells, these spells are just, that I can see invis, go into invis, bluff or concentrate my enemies on other things, read and detect magic....so the basic stuff, nearly all at at-Will.
I would like to use stealthing and sneaking.


@PhaedrusXY: Shade gets unlimited invis, sr, fast healing (and I want fast healing), shadowimages like mirrorimages, shadow way, just for a nice teleport every 2 rounds, seeing in any darkness and +4 to saves and +2 to attack and dmg in darkness.
What is better? Ok, I am not really good, but is this combo so bad?
And I am really sorry, and this isnīt meant bad or evil or so.....but I took Shade, cauze nobody really told me, which Combos would be good.
Not only, take this race or that Feat, no, take this feat with that Class and this race, then you get this for that and so on....

Sorry, I am really bad at building, so I just need help :(
And I wrote down the books, sorry, I canīt find a feat from a Dragon magazine.
Plz donīt take this as afront or so, its really not meant angry or so. I just have no idea, what to do or build....


What I would like is a char, who can sneak and hide. I want to build a char, who sneak and does dmg, but when he gets attacked, he hides, or when he gets injured, he can hide, wait with fast healing and attack then again. I want a really fucking hiding coward ^^
Know, what I mean?
Title: Re: Shadowchar help needed plz
Post by: Saxony on July 20, 2010, 09:09:20 AM
Shade will work for you if it has infinite invisibility.

The biggest thing about making a great Sneaky/Stealth focused character is picking a race or class which makes you good at stealth. Bonuses to Hide and Move Silently are the biggest things. Invisibility gives a +20 bonus to Hide; that's good enough. You'll need something to help with Move Silently as well.

You said you wanted Sneak Attack. Take the Two Weapon Fighting feats. Sneak Attack applies to each and every attack you make. Sneak Attack builds require more attacks to be useful. 3 more attacks when each of them deal +10d6 damage (10d6 = 35 damage on average) is 100 more damage every round if each attack succeeds. That's goooooood.

Take the Craven feat (Champions of Ruin). It gives you a bonus to Sneak Attack damage equal to your level. +20 Sneak Attack damage at level 20. That's a great feat; remember that the usual 10d6 Sneak Attack damage does 35 damage on average. +20 damage is +50% damage.

Everyone is giving different ideas and hints to you because we all have different opinions and experiences about what makes a good Sneaking/Stealth character.

Here's what I suggest to help you make a great Sneaky/Stealth character: Look at this link.
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?action=search2

I used the Search Tool of this forum and searched for "Sneak Attack". The links which the Search Tool found deal with "Sneak Attack", so if you look at the ones which look important, you will learn a lot about how to use Sneak Attacks very well. There are a lot of builds that are linked, so you can get some ideas of what makes a good Sneaky/Stealth character.

You can search for other things, too.
Title: Re: Shadowchar help needed plz
Post by: fuinjutsu on July 21, 2010, 07:29:02 PM
Totemist -> Shadow Mantle + Shadow Sun Ninja 5 + Darkstalker

+4 to hit vs everyone next to you.  and other bonuses.