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The Thinktank => Min/Max It! => : bradywan June 24, 2010, 03:03:46 PM

: Knowledge Devotion, help please ^^
: bradywan June 24, 2010, 03:03:46 PM


   Long story short, last campaign one of the party members decided to go the knowledge devotion route.  I think they only had knowledge arcana and knowledge nature, but it irked the dm as being "too powerful."

 Now that campaign is over and I've decided, in our new campaign, I want to make a sage like or scholarly type caster and again take knowledge devotion.  Our dm has informed me that, while this will be fine, the dc's will be drastically increased.

  So, aside from the character trait in UA that gives +1 to all knowledge checks, and the "master of knowledge" feat from heroes of horror, what can I do to optimize my knowledge skills? I'd like to try and avoid spending every feat I'm going to get on skill focus.

 You guys (and girls) are the masters of 3.5 information, please help :)  Starting at lowish levels and can take 2 flaws, any WotC material is ok regardless of what setting its from.  Any suggestions?
: Re: Knowledge Devotion, help please ^^
: archangel.arcanis June 24, 2010, 03:07:34 PM
If you are going to be a Dwarf and a Cleric then i would say The dwarf feat that lets you use wisdom instead of Int for Knowledge checks and make them untrained.
Crystal mask in SRD/XPH/MIC can give a bonus as well.
: Re: Knowledge Devotion, help please ^^
: Sobolev June 24, 2010, 03:27:28 PM
Make sure you have a deity who grants the Knowledge domain, and cast Lore of the Gods (Complete Champion)

See if Collector of Stories is applicable (Skill trick)

The dwarf feat he's talking about is Ancestral Knowledge, I think it's in Races of Stone
: Re: Knowledge Devotion, help please ^^
: Waazraath June 24, 2010, 04:05:47 PM
take 1 level of binder and go anima mage, full casting advancement, bind dantallion as soon as possible for a +8 on all knowledge checks. One of the online vestiges (the triad) gives "call to mind" as power (another +4), though since the power states you can use it on a failed knowledge check, it's arguable if you can use it.
: Re: Knowledge Devotion, help please ^^
: Felix Underwood June 24, 2010, 04:16:44 PM
1 level in Dragonfire Adept for the Draconic Knowledge invocation for a +6 and can use them all untrained.  There is also a feat called Draconic Knowledge that gives you a +X bonus where X equals the number of Draconic feats you have.
: Re: Knowledge Devotion, help please ^^
: BowenSilverclaw June 24, 2010, 04:49:53 PM
How the hell is Knowledge Devotion overpowered ???
: Re: Knowledge Devotion, help please ^^
: carnivore June 24, 2010, 04:58:24 PM
id suggest either:

Cloistered Cleric 20

or

Wizard 10/ Urban Savant 10


 :D

: Re: Knowledge Devotion, help please ^^
: Negative Zero June 24, 2010, 05:26:13 PM
How the hell is Knowledge Devotion overpowered ???

It lets him outdamage the single-classed fighter?  :P
: Re: Knowledge Devotion, help please ^^
: Sobolev June 24, 2010, 06:15:37 PM
How the hell is Knowledge Devotion overpowered ???

It lets him outdamage the single-classed fighter?  :P

That's not saying a lot.
: Re: Knowledge Devotion, help please ^^
: Havok4 June 24, 2010, 06:44:52 PM
I would recommend against using something that the DM has decide to be overpowered and in need of nerfing. Either you will not be able to use it effectively or the effective use of it will still seem broken to him so he might nerf it more. For that character type you might as well go archivist and use the dark knowledge abilities. I would really recommend talking ot him about it though.
: Re: Knowledge Devotion, help please ^^
: Torvon June 24, 2010, 07:17:31 PM
How the hell is Knowledge Devotion overpowered ???

My level 4 factotum gets +3 to hit and +3 to damage in most combats against the main monster.

That is ridiculous, compared to a weapon focus feat for instance -- and overpowered.
: Re: Knowledge Devotion, help please ^^
: Agita June 24, 2010, 07:22:52 PM
How the hell is Knowledge Devotion overpowered ???

My level 4 factotum gets +3 to hit and +3 to damage in most combats against the main monster.

That is ridiculous, compared to a weapon focus feat for instance -- and overpowered.
Weapon Focus sucks ass and is in no way an appropiate measuring stick. Sorry.
: Re: Knowledge Devotion, help please ^^
: skydragonknight June 24, 2010, 07:28:57 PM
Why not just house rule it so you could only get the bonuses from one knowledge skill each encounter?
 So if a demon and a gargoyle were teaming up, you'd have to choose which one to focus on, but if you went up against a bunch of goblins and hobgoblins, you get the bonuses against all of them since they're "alike".

It'll lower the scope of the feat a bit and encourage more interesting encounters.
: Re: Knowledge Devotion, help please ^^
: Havok4 June 24, 2010, 07:33:37 PM
How the hell is Knowledge Devotion overpowered ???

My level 4 factotum gets +3 to hit and +3 to damage in most combats against the main monster.

That is ridiculous, compared to a weapon focus feat for instance -- and overpowered.

I really hope you are joking about that. A more approprate measuring stck would be everything else you could do with that feat slot at a similar level with a similar degree of investment. When compared to things like darkstalker, shape soulmeld and metamagic feats knowledge devotion is really quite appropriate.
: Re: Knowledge Devotion, help please ^^
: Black Knight June 24, 2010, 07:42:25 PM
Could you explain what your DM means about the DCs being drastically changed and how that relates to Knowledge Devotion?

I'm guessing that you mean he's changing the chart and making each plus harder to obtain, right?

Cloistered Cleric is a definite scholarly type that would work great for your theme or perhaps an Archivist.

The Cunning Knowledge class feature from the Factotum class might be useful... it lets you add your levels in the Factotum class to a skill check.
: Re: Knowledge Devotion, help please ^^
: Solo June 24, 2010, 07:44:59 PM
Guidance of the Avatar.
: Re: Knowledge Devotion, help please ^^
: Dictum Mortuum June 24, 2010, 08:16:19 PM
How about something like:

Human Cloistered Cleric 4/Ordained Champion 5, focus on strength, constitution and wisdom.


Bonus damage is pretty awesome: +4 from holy warrior, +1-5 knowledge devotion, wisdom instead of strength to damage, fist of the gods damage, divine power, divine favor, power attack and the list goes on :P Remember that you don't actually need to use your deity's favorite weapon with these abilities; any weapon will do.
: Re: Knowledge Devotion, help please ^^
: Prime32 June 24, 2010, 08:31:27 PM
I would also suggest archivist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3) for this.
: Re: Knowledge Devotion, help please ^^
: Nachofan99 June 24, 2010, 09:48:56 PM
There are 1 million and 1 "broken" and "overpowered" 3.5 builds/feats/prcs/etc.

I mean, if your DM has issues with Knowledge Devotion, there have to be bigger issues with the group at large.
: Re: Knowledge Devotion, help please ^^
: Sobolev June 24, 2010, 11:27:26 PM
I would recommend against using something that the DM has decide to be overpowered and in need of nerfing. Either you will not be able to use it effectively or the effective use of it will still seem broken to him so he might nerf it more.

I agree with this, playing something your DM doesn't like is a recipe for disappointment for one of you.
: Re: Knowledge Devotion, help please ^^
: bradywan June 25, 2010, 04:58:00 PM


  A lot of really good suggestions, including just not doing it if my DM already has an issue with it. Thanks for the input guys.
: Re: Knowledge Devotion, help please ^^
: JaronK June 25, 2010, 05:21:34 PM
My level 4 factotum gets +3 to hit and +3 to damage in most combats against the main monster.

That is ridiculous, compared to a weapon focus feat for instance -- and overpowered.

Except that you had to burn a ton of skill points as well to do it, skill points that could have been spent on Iajuitsu Focus, UMD, Diplomacy, and so on.  Plus, Weapon Focus is an underpowered feat.  Compare to Power Attack which, when spent with Shock Trooper, adds rediculous amounts of damage... I'm not seeing it. 

No matter.   My advice to the OP would be to play as a gnome (or whispergnome) and use the Trivial Knowledge feat.  It's gnome only and lets you reroll knowledge checks.

JaronK
: Re: Knowledge Devotion, help please ^^
: ksbsnowowl June 26, 2010, 12:18:07 AM
Divine Insight, Clr 2, Spell Compendium - gives you a bonus to any skill check of 5+ caster level (max +15) once during an hour/level duration.
: Re: Knowledge Devotion, help please ^^
: ninjarabbit June 26, 2010, 12:46:43 AM
A level of marshal with motivate intellegence gives you your cha modifier to your int checks including knowledge checks.

A familiar or someone else can give you a +2 bonus with the aid another action.

5 ranks in survival gives you a +2 synergy bonus to knowledge (nature) checks.

A masterwork item gives you a +2 bonus for only 50 gp per knowledge skill.

An item familiar can boost your knowledge checks too.
: Re: Knowledge Devotion, help please ^^
: Amechra June 26, 2010, 01:32:27 AM
What, no love for the bard?

A Bardic Knack Bard with Improvisation and Focusing Chant (I believe the name is), which you get at , let you achieve Max ranks -2 on any skill, ven if you don't have ranks in it, and you can get a 1/2 CL+1 boost to any skill from Focusing Chant+Improvisation, which means your Knowledge skills will effectively be 1.5*level+4 if you go pure bard, so you can dispatch things nicely.

And the best part? Both let you enhance attack rolls too, and, so you could achieve a much larger boost with Bardic Knowledge.

And those spells are unique to the bard, iirc.


Makes a nice low level skillmonkey.

(Can you see I love the bards? Melodic Casting FTW)