Brilliant Gameologists Forum

The Thinktank => Min/Max It! => : Talore May 13, 2010, 09:55:18 PM

: 1-st level Gestalt builds?
: Talore May 13, 2010, 09:55:18 PM
Hey there.

Getting into a game over at MTGSalvation, and was wondering if there are any worthwhile gestalt builds at LV1? The downside is there is heavy restriction:

Complete adventurer, arcane, champion, divine, Mage, and psionic are allowed. Also races of the dragon, players handbook I and II, and DMG. Free-published stuff should be fine.

The ability scores will be on a 28 point buy scale, but only one is allowed to be 18.

Races can only be the original from PHB1, although I may get away with variants.

It also says that the campaign will be long-term, so a build that is playable throughout would be awesome. (I already asked him, Chicken-infested commoner//Dread Necromancer isn't allowed  :( )
: Re: 1-st level Gestalt builds?
: Ithamar May 13, 2010, 10:01:09 PM
What kind of build were you looking for?  Or what do you usually like to play?

Ranger || Cleric for archery goodness

Duskblade || Soulknife is sort of weak, but can be fun and flavorful

Druid || Whatever to stomp your foes into the dirt

Etc.
: Re: 1-st level Gestalt builds?
: weenog May 13, 2010, 10:02:50 PM
Ninja 1||Druid 1 gets you an assload of skill points and good class skills, all good base saves, trapfinding, nice Wis synergy, sudden strike and some other stuff.
: Re: 1-st level Gestalt builds?
: Littha May 13, 2010, 10:10:46 PM
Druid|Anything as said previously is awesome... from 1-20 and you dont even need to take PRCs on the druid side...

Druid|Monk is fun and once you hit level 5 unarmed strikes are hilarious in wildshaped forms.
Big advantage of this is you drop most of the things that make monk bad (MAD, abilities all over the place etc) and remain awesome.... though you could play Druid|Nothing and probably still as strong as everyone else in the party combined.

Druid|Cleric if you want to be really fun later on.... Divine power while wildshaped into a bear etc... and you can DMM your druid spells
: Re: 1-st level Gestalt builds?
: Talore May 13, 2010, 10:18:17 PM
I'm definately interested in Druid, it's my favourite class.

Druid||Ninja sounds interesting to say the least, but I have no idea how I'd play. Help?

Druid||Cleric definately has potential, but at lower levels it seems kind of unoptimal. Am I right?

Druid||Monk... Monk is scary... but it's possible.

Anything else?
: Re: 1-st level Gestalt builds?
: jolt May 13, 2010, 10:23:54 PM
If you're going Druid, you might be able to get away with the Saint template. It's supah dupah and found in Book of Exalted Deeds. I know it's not on your list but it's always worth a try at the GM.
: Re: 1-st level Gestalt builds?
: Littha May 13, 2010, 10:25:16 PM
I don't think Druid|Cleric is ever suboptimal really, at lower levels you have more spells to throw around and if you can get your hands on it dragonhide or stone full plate...

Plus I'm not sure how spontanious cure/summoning would interact with a second spell list. As far as i can see RAW you can channel druid spells into cures specifically as spells you want to convert must be:
any prepared spell that is not a domain  spell
with no qualifier on weather it must be a cleric spell or even a divine spell.
: Re: 1-st level Gestalt builds?
: weenog May 13, 2010, 10:26:31 PM
Druid||Ninja would play pretty much like Druid||Rogue except you get Wis to AC when you're not wearing armor (pretty much all the time once you can wild shape).  You might be best off just making ninja a brief dip and then going monk or cleric with the rest of the levels on that side.

Alternately, if you like the rogue-ness, you could go something like Ninja 1/Rogue rest||Druid all (or Monk 1/Rogue rest||Druid all, since you'll be getting trapfinding from rogue anyway) so you've got the Wis to AC plus the much more condition-lenient Sneak Attack, allowing you to really crank out the damage when you're wild shaped and flanking.
: Re: 1-st level Gestalt builds?
: TheEndIsNear May 13, 2010, 10:26:59 PM
Druid||Cleric definately has potential, but at lower levels it seems kind of unoptimal. Am I right?

Not right, it's awesome all "teh" time.

Also, where is that game on MTGsalvation? I didn't see any dnd stuff anywhere?
: Re: 1-st level Gestalt builds?
: Littha May 13, 2010, 10:27:55 PM
Rather than waste a level on ninja just grab a monks belt and drop it before you wildshape.
: Re: 1-st level Gestalt builds?
: Talore May 13, 2010, 10:32:57 PM
@TheEndIsNear: Pen and Paper inn, further down the board.
Outside Magic>The Colosseum>Pen&Paper Inn
We're still in sign-up mode if you want to play.

Yeah, I'll go Druid||Cleric. Probably human.

I have 28-point buy. What should I do with options?

I was thinking cleric of Obad-Hai(flavour) and take Fire and Earth as my domains, for a spanking load of turning for DMM. Thoughts?

Feats?
: Re: 1-st level Gestalt builds?
: TheEndIsNear May 13, 2010, 10:33:29 PM
NVM I saw it. I also saw the DM said psions are ok but try not to play them as they are generaly broken...

EDIT: I already posted my interest in the thread as a cleric//something martial...
: Re: 1-st level Gestalt builds?
: weenog May 13, 2010, 10:34:11 PM
NVM I saw it. I also saw the DM said psions are ok but try not to play them as they are generaly broken...
This from someone that's running a gestalt game on purpose?  :lmao
: Re: 1-st level Gestalt builds?
: TheEndIsNear May 13, 2010, 10:34:53 PM
Yea, with tons of DMM monsters... XD
EDIT:
NVM they seem full
: Re: 1-st level Gestalt builds?
: Talore May 13, 2010, 11:39:59 PM
There's a spot open if you want to play, someone else quit.

Any ideas for point-buy, feats, spells?
: Re: 1-st level Gestalt builds?
: Maat_Mons May 14, 2010, 12:04:28 AM
Since you said free-published stuff should be fine, you should go for cloistered cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloisteredCleric).  Since you're getting fairly similar casting on both sides, you might want to use the spontaneous variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm) for one side, probably cleric so you can cast more domain spells.  

Divine metamagic can only be fueled by turn of rebuke undead, the fire and earth domain abilities don't help.  I suggest the war and strength domains.  Edit: on second thought, celerity or travel would probably be better than war. 
: Re: 1-st level Gestalt builds?
: TheEndIsNear May 14, 2010, 12:35:18 AM
Actaully I forget where but I read you only need the turn undead attempts to qualify for DMM or something like that but you only need turn attempts to fueel the feats not turn undead attemps.
: Re: 1-st level Gestalt builds?
: Maat_Mons May 14, 2010, 12:46:39 AM
I don't know where you read that, but I know what the feat says. 

As a free action, you can take the energy from turning or rebuking undead and use it to apply a metamagic feat to divine spells that you know.
: Re: 1-st level Gestalt builds?
: The_Mad_Linguist May 14, 2010, 02:02:06 AM
I assume you're picking Dragonwrough kobold as the race, right?
: Re: 1-st level Gestalt builds?
: wotmaniac May 14, 2010, 02:20:50 AM
as long as you're going 5+ levels, I like druid//rogue.  take savage grapple FTW.  Better yet, swap out rogue for sneak attack fighter (from UA) for full BAB.
: Re: 1-st level Gestalt builds?
: johnboy069 May 14, 2010, 02:49:26 AM
If you can get ahold of Dragon 336, go Mystic/Wildshaping Ranger (with Trap expert ACF from Dungeonscape) on one side, and cleric on the other.
: Re: 1-st level Gestalt builds?
: OblivionSmurf83 May 14, 2010, 03:54:28 AM
If you can get ahold of Dragon 336, go Mystic/Wildshaping Ranger (with Trap expert ACF from Dungeonscape) on one side, and cleric on the other.

Eh, Mystic Wild Shape Ranger is great, but mainly because you can combine him with Sword of the Arcane Order, which won't be possible in this case. On that topic, how much online content is allowed? Would that random realms help page that's floating around be allowed? Would UA, as it's part of the SRD? If you allow the stuff on realms, then you should be able to get Sword of the Arcane Order, making Mystic Ranger a very good choice. Similarly, if UA is allowed, Cloistered Cleric is almost mandatory in a Gestalt build.

Finally, if none of those options are available, a good skill monkey might be Beguiler 20//Wizard 20.
: Re: 1-st level Gestalt builds?
: Phaenix May 14, 2010, 10:09:53 AM
If you want to stay SAD, you could gestalt druid with Ardent (CompSci), since it's on your allowed list, and the Dominant Ideal is published for free online.
: Re: 1-st level Gestalt builds?
: ksbsnowowl May 14, 2010, 12:36:02 PM
as long as you're going 5+ levels, I like druid//rogue.  take savage grapple FTW.  Better yet, swap out rogue for sneak attack fighter (from UA) for full BAB.
I second Druid||Rogue.

All good saves, skill points and innocuous forms with which to be sneaky, decent HP's, Sneak Attack, lots of great touch spells to use with sneak attack (Produce Flame, Flame Blade), and a built-in flank-buddy via your animal companion.

The only thing you don't have is Full BAB, but you likely won't care for long, as you'll be using natural attacks, and thus iterative attacks don't much matter.
: Re: 1-st level Gestalt builds?
: weenog May 14, 2010, 01:00:39 PM
1-3 levels of something else to mismatch the +0s in a pair of 3/4 BAB progressions would leave you with 19/20 BAB (or 20, if they're levels of 4/4 BAB classes).  Maybe monk 2 (dump evasion for spell reflection)/rogue rest?  Well, more like rogue 1/monk 2/rogue rest...
: Re: 1-st level Gestalt builds?
: ksbsnowowl May 14, 2010, 01:16:27 PM
1-3 levels of something else to mismatch the +0s in a pair of 3/4 BAB progressions would leave you with 19/20 BAB (or 20, if they're levels of 4/4 BAB classes).  Maybe monk 2 (dump evasion for spell reflection)/rogue rest?  Well, more like rogue 1/monk 2/rogue rest...
Very few DM's read or allow the rules that way.
: Re: 1-st level Gestalt builds?
: carnivore May 14, 2010, 01:29:30 PM
i like:

Human
Beguiler 1// Warblade 1

Int based, great Skills, Great Hp, Full BAB, nice saves(good Fort and Will, gets boost to Ref from Int also), Trapfinding

Dragonborn Warforged
Psion(Shaper) 1/ Fighter 1
lots of Feats, great racial Traits, Full BAB, nice saves


both have great synergy and lots of Power and Survivability, and are Single Attribute focused

 :D
: Re: 1-st level Gestalt builds?
: Ithamar May 14, 2010, 02:44:57 PM
How about something like:

Alternate Druid (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#druid) 20 || Wildshape Ranger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger) 5 / Master of Many Forms 10 / Nature's Warrior 2 / Warshaper 2 / Fist of the Forest 1

Skills points, spellcasting, unmatched melee potential

Or something simple and straightforward:

Sorcerer 15 / Abjurant Champion 5 || Paladin 2 / Monk 2 / Dragon Disciple 10 / Whatever 6

Lots of spells, terrific combat potential, CHA to AC and to Saves of course
: Re: 1-st level Gestalt builds?
: carnivore May 14, 2010, 05:20:58 PM
heres another fun idea:

Human

Cloistered Cleric 1/ Fighter 1

Domains:
War ............ Weapon Focus(Composite Longbow)
Elf .............. Point Blank Shot
Knowledge ... given up for Knowledge Devotion feat

Feats:
Versatile Spellcaster(Human bonus)
Rapid Shot(Fighter bonus)
Weapon Focus(Composite Longbow)(Cleric Bonus)
Point Blank Shot(Cleric Bonus)
Knowledge Devotion(Cleric Bonus)
1st lvl: Touch of Healing

this makes a Great Archer character... but also is great at Healing
great Skills, saves, HP also

 :D



: Re: 1-st level Gestalt builds?
: Littha May 14, 2010, 05:49:41 PM
I was thinking cleric of Obad-Hai(flavour) and take Fire and Earth as my domains, for a spanking load of turning for DMM. Thoughts?

I wouldn't pick that deity or those domains, domains can be an excellent way of strengthening a character and you have all the spells in the fire and earth domains covered already with druidic magic, magic or knowledge domains could be interesting or time if you really want. Basically why choose domains that grant you abilities you already have, why not choose ones that let you do other things as well.
: Re: 1-st level Gestalt builds?
: Ithamar May 14, 2010, 06:20:34 PM
If you want druid and cleric archer, you could go with:

Alternate Druid (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#druid) / Prestige Ranger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigeRanger) || Elf Cleric

Use Zen Archery of course, then pump Owl's Insight for more WIS boost.  You become very single stat driven, plus you get favoured enemies and can now cast very useful spells like Foebane on your bow.
: Re: 1-st level Gestalt builds?
: duncandun May 14, 2010, 08:26:45 PM
I've always wanted to do a sorcerer/barbarian(or wizard/barbarian... or Caster/barbarian) gestalt.

Eventually lead into Ragemage and frenzied berserker, I don't know how awesome it would be but it would be awesome!
: Re: 1-st level Gestalt builds?
: Littha May 14, 2010, 08:33:29 PM
If you want druid and cleric archer, you could go with:

Alternate Druid (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#druid) / Prestige Ranger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigeRanger) || Elf Cleric

Use Zen Archery of course, then pump Owl's Insight for more WIS boost.  You become very single stat driven, plus you get favoured enemies and can now cast very useful spells like Foebane on your bow.

You could also just use your inordinate amount of spell slots to toast everything you see (Figuratively, I don't condone blasting)
: Re: 1-st level Gestalt builds?
: ninjarabbit May 14, 2010, 09:53:28 PM
duskblade/wizard
: Re: 1-st level Gestalt builds?
: Mixster May 14, 2010, 10:13:46 PM
I like the Druid/Cloistered Cleric Idea, it's not that flavorful though (one lives in a forest, protects the animals, the other lives in a cloister, so is this a forested cloister?)

Substitute the Knowledge domain for the devotion feat, grab yourself some DMM. The crazy thing will be Persisting a Divine power and then Wildshape into a bear. Raargh, Full Base Attack and I'm a bear with +6 strength! Oh, and I also get + to damage from knowing your anatomy.

Oh and on level 1-5 you'll be a HUGE asset to your party, your animal companion can help a bit with tanking, and your ability to load up on more than 6 lesser vigors each day will keep your party at full health while still exploring.

It's almost as good as the Wizard/Druid route, but not quite.
: Re: 1-st level Gestalt builds?
: The_Mad_Linguist May 14, 2010, 10:14:57 PM
Someone needs to start quoting As You Like It.

EDIT: Fine, I'll do it

Sweet are the uses of adversity
Which, like the toad, ugly and venomous,
Wears yet a precious jewel in his head;
And this our life, exempt from public haunt,
Finds tongues in trees, books in the running brooks,
Sermons in stones, and good in everything.
: Re: 1-st level Gestalt builds?
: TheEndIsNear May 14, 2010, 10:29:34 PM
I like the Druid/Cloistered Cleric Idea, it's not that flavorful though (one lives in a forest, protects the animals, the other lives in a cloister, so is this a forested cloister?)

Substitute the Knowledge domain for the devotion feat, grab yourself some DMM. The crazy thing will be Persisting a Divine power and then Wildshape into a bear. Raargh, Full Base Attack and I'm a bear with +6 strength! Oh, and I also get + to damage from knowing your anatomy.

Oh and on level 1-5 you'll be a HUGE asset to your party, your animal companion can help a bit with tanking, and your ability to load up on more than 6 lesser vigors each day will keep your party at full health while still exploring.

It's almost as good as the Wizard/Druid route, but not quite.

It's perfect, the old wise teacher that always looks at the forest during the class in regret. He loved his forest, he just knew the wiser thing to do was to teach his wiseness? to the young uns.
: Re: 1-st level Gestalt builds?
: Talore May 15, 2010, 02:12:02 AM
So, I'm thinking Druid 1||Cloistered Cleric 1

Trade Knowledge for Devotion

Travel Domain

Celerity Domain, switching over to Travel Devotion as soon as I get adequate armour to counterbalance +10 move speed.

Feats are Persist Spell, DMM(Persist)

If I'm allowed to take flaws, What should I take? I was thinking Quicken and DMM? Is there a way to 'channel' spells to reduce LA of metamagic? If so, buring a bunch of stuff into free quickens would be awesome. Found it. And that means I'd have to be a Kobold... I promised not to cheese it up too much. =P
: Re: 1-st level Gestalt builds?
: Ramaloke May 15, 2010, 07:44:02 AM
I've always liked:

Dread Necromancer 01 || Paladin of Tyranny 01.

All around bad ass.
: Re: 1-st level Gestalt builds?
: OblivionSmurf83 May 15, 2010, 03:26:21 PM
So, I'm thinking Druid 1||Cloistered Cleric 1

Trade Knowledge for Devotion

Travel Domain

Celerity Domain, switching over to Travel Devotion as soon as I get adequate armour to counterbalance +10 move speed.

Feats are Persist Spell, DMM(Persist)

If I'm allowed to take flaws, What should I take? I was thinking Quicken and DMM? Is there a way to 'channel' spells to reduce LA of metamagic? If so, buring a bunch of stuff into free quickens would be awesome. Found it. And that means I'd have to be a Kobold... I promised not to cheese it up too much. =P

Beg for the chance to take Planar Shepherd. You won't get it, but it's still worth asking. If you DO get it, put it on the Cleric side, as you're not really losing that much from no more Clerics. Also, depending on how your DM interprets the Gestalt rules, the Wild Shape class feature that Planar Shepherd grants may stack with the Wild Shape class feature that the Druid grants, giving you a much higher HD pool to play with. Not that you'll get it again.

In the more likely outcome that your DM refuses Planar Shepherd, just take Dweomerkeeper, and go to town with Supernatural spell.

Also, you'll need Extend Spell as a prereq for Persistent Spell.