Brilliant Gameologists Forum

The Thinktank => Min/Max It! => Topic started by: j0lt on March 11, 2010, 07:27:34 AM

Title: Arcane Caster
Post by: j0lt on March 11, 2010, 07:27:34 AM
I'm moving back to my hometown at the end of this month after living in Japan for the past 4 years, and I'll be rejoining my old 3.5 group.  It's a small group (two plus DM), and the other player is a rather competent optimizer.  I've always liked to play characters that could do things both inside and outside of combat, and of late have been really wanting to play some sort of arcane caster.

Right now I'm leaning towards three basic builds: Elf Generalist Wizard (utility/battlefield control), Human (also considering Dragonborn or Half-Dragon) Battle Sorcerer/Abjurant Champion (your basic gish in a box), and possibly a Beguiler (though I have no experience with this class - thinking Drow?).  I'd appreciate tips for all three builds, as well as suggestions for other similar builds.  Probable starting level is 3.

AFAIK, all 3.5 books and some Dragon Mags are available.  No cheese, please.
Title: Re: Arcane Caster
Post by: Solo on March 11, 2010, 07:31:45 AM
Consider going Paladin2/Sorcerer4/Spellsword1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8.
Title: Re: Arcane Caster
Post by: j0lt on March 11, 2010, 07:47:05 AM
Consider going Paladin2/Sorcerer4/Spellsword1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8.

Interesting, had to look up Sacred Exorcist to see what it was.  I'm assuming the main point of the Paladin levels is the +Cha to all saves, and the Spellsword level is a good alternative way to gain the ability to cast spells with light armor.  Still, it means having level 1 spellcasting ability at level 3.
Title: Re: Arcane Caster
Post by: Solo on March 11, 2010, 07:48:56 AM
Battle sorcerer has what at level 3?
Title: Re: Arcane Caster
Post by: j0lt on March 11, 2010, 07:55:46 AM
Battle sorcerer has what at level 3?

Good point.  Still have to wait until level 6 for 2nd level spells that way though.  With straight Battle Sorcerer, I'd have 2nd level spells at level 4.

I suppose I should clarify that I'll be the party's primary caster.  If I do the Battle Sorcerer, I'd be primary caster/secondary melee.

Paladin 2/Battle Sorcerer 13/Abjurant Champion 5
BAB +16, 18th caster level, better weapons, +cha to saves.  You can wear mithril fullplate with the Battle Caster feat.

Found this in another thread, a simpler form of your proposed Sorcadin, Solo.

Thematically, the Paladin levels do fit, since this character would be devoted to Bahamut.  And I liked your dip into Spellsword.  How does Paladin 2/Battle Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/... sound?

Also, a 3rd level of Paladin is kind of attractive, even though I'd be losing another caster level, possibly taken around level 13 (after Abjurant Champion), the Aura of Courage would be helpful when taking on something like a Dragon.
Title: Re: Arcane Caster
Post by: Hijax on March 11, 2010, 10:24:53 AM
if you want sorcerer, be a kobold.

But Hijax, Kobolds suck at melee combat

It rhymes with holymorph, walter self, and grapechange.


Title: Re: Arcane Caster
Post by: PhaedrusXY on March 11, 2010, 10:38:50 AM
Simpler is not better. The benefits of battle sorcerer are not worth the losses, in general. You're better off with Solo's build. You can also use the Turn attempts for Divine Might or something with his build.
Title: Re: Arcane Caster
Post by: j0lt on March 11, 2010, 10:42:29 AM
if you want sorcerer, be a kobold.

But Hijax, Kobolds suck at melee combat

It rhymes with holymorph, walter self, and grapechange.

I'll have to look into it, never played a Kobold before...  (I even have a Kobold Sorcerer mini!)  :D

Simpler is not better. The benefits of battle sorcerer are not worth the losses, in general. You're better off with Solo's build. You can also use the Turn attempts for Divine Might or something with his build.
That's true, too.  I suppose I could just go with generic Sorcerer.  I just tend to get hung up on things like character concept, which is completely irrelevant in terms of optimization.
Title: Re: Arcane Caster
Post by: PhaedrusXY on March 11, 2010, 11:16:12 AM
Use the available classes to fit your character concept. Don't define your character concept based on the class names. "Battle" sorcerer usually performs worse as a gish than a "generic" sorcerer with "gish" prestige classes. Stalwart sorcerer is better because you only give up one spell known instead of one at every spell level. You might consider that. However, talk to the DM about what happens when you PrC out. Do you still get the benefits and penalty of the ACF? If he thinks the penalty still scales, but you don't get the benefits, don't take it.

For kobold stuff, you might look here: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7329.0
Title: Re: Arcane Caster
Post by: j0lt on March 11, 2010, 12:04:40 PM
Even so, I think I'll stick with a Dragonborn or Half-Dragon Paladin 2/(Battle?) Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/? (possibly Sacred Exorcist, or another PrC)  It should perform at least in the lower Tier 2 range, which is about what I'm aiming for.  Unless, of course, there's some problem with such a build that I'm unaware of.

How about the Elf Generalist Wizard?  I'm going to try and play that one more like a traditional BC/utility caster, but I'm not too sure about which PrCs are good for it.  Is it good to stick with just Wizard until I qualify for Archmage?
Title: Re: Arcane Caster
Post by: j0lt on March 14, 2010, 10:51:17 AM
Just figured out what I like better about taking Battle Sorcerer over regular Sorcerer in this build: I get to go into Abjurant Champion one level earlier:
Pal 2/B.Sor 3/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champ 5
vs
Pal 2/Sor 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champ 5
Title: Re: Arcane Caster
Post by: Paradox on March 14, 2010, 11:03:07 AM
Any reason for half-dragon?
Title: Re: Arcane Caster
Post by: j0lt on March 14, 2010, 12:31:01 PM
Any reason for half-dragon?

Fun?  :D
Title: Re: Arcane Caster
Post by: ninjarabbit on March 14, 2010, 02:12:32 PM
You need to be able to cast 2nd level spells in order to qualify for spellsword so the pally-battlesorcerer build is illegal.

The only good battlesorcerer build is battlesorcerer7/abjurantchampion5/battlesorcerer8, the regular sorcerer is much better for any sorcadin builds.

Just say no to half dragon spellcasters, dragonborn pretty much gives you the same flavoer without the LA.
Title: Re: Arcane Caster
Post by: Aliment on March 14, 2010, 02:58:40 PM
Swiftblade and Battle Sorceror isn't too bad either.
Title: Re: Arcane Caster
Post by: gorfnad on March 14, 2010, 08:35:41 PM
Well, for Beguiler builds I like
Whispergnome Beguiler 6/ Shadow Adept 1/ Beguiler 1/ Shadowcraft Mage 5/ Shadowcrafter 7

Shadowcraft Mage Handbook - http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5638.0
Beguiler Handbook - http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2322.0
Title: Re: Arcane Caster
Post by: KellKheraptis on March 14, 2010, 09:51:17 PM
You need to be able to cast 2nd level spells in order to qualify for spellsword so the pally-battlesorcerer build is illegal.

The only good battlesorcerer build is battlesorcerer7/abjurantchampion5/battlesorcerer8, the regular sorcerer is much better for any sorcadin builds.

Just say no to half dragon spellcasters, dragonborn pretty much gives you the same flavoer without the LA.

That's what Versatile Spellcaster tech is for ;)
Title: Re: Arcane Caster
Post by: j0lt on March 14, 2010, 11:40:41 PM
You need to be able to cast 2nd level spells in order to qualify for spellsword so the pally-battlesorcerer build is illegal.
Argh!  Serves me right to only pay attention to the BAB!  Either way, Pal2/B.Sor 4/Abj.Champ 5/...  is still one level quicker than with regular sorcerer.
Quote
The only good battlesorcerer build is battlesorcerer7/abjurantchampion5/battlesorcerer8, the regular sorcerer is much better for any sorcadin builds.
That's what I was originally thinking of doing.  There's still a chance I might go back to that, but I like the idea of the Paladin dip.
Swiftblade and Battle Sorceror isn't too bad either.
What book is Swiftblade in?
Well, for Beguiler builds I like
Whispergnome Beguiler 6/ Shadow Adept 1/ Beguiler 1/ Shadowcraft Mage 5/ Shadowcrafter 7

Shadowcraft Mage Handbook - http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5638.0
Beguiler Handbook - http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2322.0
Thanks, I'll look into them!
Title: Re: Arcane Caster
Post by: Bozwevial on March 15, 2010, 12:04:20 AM
Swiftblade is right here, actually. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327)
Title: Re: Arcane Caster
Post by: KellKheraptis on March 15, 2010, 12:07:34 AM
You need to be able to cast 2nd level spells in order to qualify for spellsword so the pally-battlesorcerer build is illegal.
Argh!  Serves me right to only pay attention to the BAB!  Either way, Pal2/B.Sor 4/Abj.Champ 5/...  is still one level quicker than with regular sorcerer.
Quote
The only good battlesorcerer build is battlesorcerer7/abjurantchampion5/battlesorcerer8, the regular sorcerer is much better for any sorcadin builds.
That's what I was originally thinking of doing.  There's still a chance I might go back to that, but I like the idea of the Paladin dip.
Swiftblade and Battle Sorceror isn't too bad either.
What book is Swiftblade in?
Well, for Beguiler builds I like
Whispergnome Beguiler 6/ Shadow Adept 1/ Beguiler 1/ Shadowcraft Mage 5/ Shadowcrafter 7

Shadowcraft Mage Handbook - http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5638.0
Beguiler Handbook - http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2322.0
Thanks, I'll look into them!

I reiterate, if you have your heart set on the sorc build as posted that ninjarabbit said was illegal, take Versatile Spellcaster.  2nd level spells from level 1 (or 3rd with Sanctum Spell).
Title: Re: Arcane Caster
Post by: kurashu on March 15, 2010, 12:54:41 AM
A dragon gish I did once upon a time went something like this:

Dragonborn (Heart) Raptoran Sorcerer 1/Fighter 1/Sorcerer +3/Fighter +1/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8

Feats: Dragon Heritage (Copper), Quicken Spell, Power Attack, Combat Casting, Accelerate Metamagic (Quicken), EWP (Spiked Chain), Improved Flight, Arcane Strike, Versatile Spellcaster, Divine Might.

You end up with 16 BAB and 18 CL, a pretty sweet air elemental familiar, the ability to use up to an 8th level spell as a SLA 3/day, AC goodies and sacred exorcist goodies.
Title: Re: Arcane Caster
Post by: j0lt on March 15, 2010, 04:56:11 AM
I reiterate, if you have your heart set on the sorc build as posted that ninjarabbit said was illegal, take Versatile Spellcaster.  2nd level spells from level 1 (or 3rd with Sanctum Spell).

What book is it in?
Title: Re: Arcane Caster
Post by: KellKheraptis on March 15, 2010, 04:59:41 AM
I reiterate, if you have your heart set on the sorc build as posted that ninjarabbit said was illegal, take Versatile Spellcaster.  2nd level spells from level 1 (or 3rd with Sanctum Spell).

What book is it in?

Dragon Magic or Races of the Dragon, one of the two IIRC.
Title: Re: Arcane Caster
Post by: j0lt on March 15, 2010, 05:57:07 AM
I reiterate, if you have your heart set on the sorc build as posted that ninjarabbit said was illegal, take Versatile Spellcaster.  2nd level spells from level 1 (or 3rd with Sanctum Spell).

What book is it in?

Dragon Magic or Races of the Dragon, one of the two IIRC.

Cool, thanks!