Brilliant Gameologists Forum

The Thinktank => Min/Max It! => : duncandun February 22, 2010, 01:28:14 AM

: Assassin... without assassin?
: duncandun February 22, 2010, 01:28:14 AM
Whats the best way to go about doing this?

I love a lot of the things about assassin, but in my current game the DM is unwilling to allow non-evil assassins to exist.

Thus, whats the next best thing(or possibly better har-har assassinsux).

Will probably be coming in at around 13.

I've been looking at Teflammar Shadowlord, seems fun. Even has death attack. Lacks Sneak attack progression and a spell list thats as good as assassins.

Anyway,

Prospective builds?

no race restrictions(Besides any LA race above +1)

stats:
18
16
14
12
10
10

gold will probably be ~100k
: Re: Assassin... without assassin?
: Anklebite February 22, 2010, 01:47:47 AM
Lacks  a spell list thats as good

seriously, go double check the spell list.  for one thing, it gets shadowbolt(something like that) as a second level spell, where it is otherwise a 5th level darkness domain spell. it also gets a ton of other spells way below their normal level. granted, it does not get as many spells as an assasin, but the ones it has are rather golden.

as for builds, you are best of going either with the shadow template in that book, warlock6, or totemist. totemists get D-door via blink shirt, and it only takes a 1 level dip. some ToB is recommended, mainly the shadow hand teleportation stuff.  assasin's stance even takes care of the SA requirement.

above all, remember: 3 full attacks a round isn't as good as you would think if your damage per attack is ass. sneak attack is a really quick equalizer in that regard, but try to get other sources of bonus damage per attack.  if you decide to go totemist, consider 2 levels for a natural attack soulmeld.


EDIT: wizards made an assassin ripoff that is good aligned, called the avenger. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a)
they even used the same damn art, just moved around some color sliders in photoshop.
: Re: Assassin... without assassin?
: Solo February 22, 2010, 01:48:53 AM
Be an Avenger.
: Re: Assassin... without assassin?
: Anklebite February 22, 2010, 01:50:56 AM
Be an Avenger.
I ninja edited that into my post, link included  :D
: Re: Assassin... without assassin?
: Havok4 February 22, 2010, 02:17:41 AM
If you will look at the date that class was posted its ripoff nature will make sense.
: Re: Assassin... without assassin?
: kurashu February 22, 2010, 02:25:45 AM
Play a swordsage. You might also want to multiclass into Umbral Disciple (Magic of Incarnum 158) for precisely three levels for constant concealment and hide in plain sight. You might consider going Swordsage 16/Incarnate 1/Umbral Disciple 3.
: Re: Assassin... without assassin?
: Sinfire Titan February 22, 2010, 02:36:38 AM
+1 for Shadowpouncer build.

Swordsage 2/Totemist 2/Swordsage +1/Totemist + 4/Shadowlord 10/Swordsage +1. Ignore Death Attack, but abuse Shadow Pounce, Sneak Attack, Craven, and Indigo Strike.
: Re: Assassin... without assassin?
: NiteCyper February 22, 2010, 02:39:28 AM
Son of a... I was going to mention the stupid Avenger!

The LA +2 Shadow template (http://img203.imageshack.us/g/lom167shadowcreature.png/)?
Oh, you mean the Shadow-walker template (http://img59.imageshack.us/g/ue70shadowwalker.png/).

Jaunter (http://img191.imageshack.us/g/edp175jntr4.png/). While a Warlock, WoG (http://web.archive.org/web/20080507212239/http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=991343) + BiS (http://yfrog.com/5edotu47featsbisp), and "At Home in the Deep" if you don't plan on swallowing pebbles of DARKNESS. Beguiler (http://img220.imageshack.us/my.php?image=beguilercolorss60vt5.png).
: Re: Assassin... without assassin?
: PhaedrusXY February 22, 2010, 02:43:22 AM
+1 for Shadowpouncer build.

Swordsage 2/Totemist 2/Swordsage +1/Totemist + 4/Shadowlord 10/Swordsage +1. Ignore Death Attack, but abuse Shadow Pounce, Sneak Attack, Craven, and Indigo Strike.
Is that supposed to be Teflemmar Shadowlord? It's only 5 levels long.
: Re: Assassin... without assassin?
: gorfnad February 22, 2010, 02:45:43 AM
+1 for Shadowpouncer build.

Swordsage 2/Totemist 2/Swordsage +1/Totemist + 4/Shadowlord 10/Swordsage +1. Ignore Death Attack, but abuse Shadow Pounce, Sneak Attack, Craven, and Indigo Strike.
Is that supposed to be Teflemmar Shadowlord? It's only 5 levels long.
Actually it's only 6 levels long. It's one of the few non 5 or 10 level prestige classes.
: Re: Assassin... without assassin?
: PhaedrusXY February 22, 2010, 02:49:06 AM
+1 for Shadowpouncer build.

Swordsage 2/Totemist 2/Swordsage +1/Totemist + 4/Shadowlord 10/Swordsage +1. Ignore Death Attack, but abuse Shadow Pounce, Sneak Attack, Craven, and Indigo Strike.
Is that supposed to be Teflemmar Shadowlord? It's only 5 levels long.
Actually it's only 6 levels long. It's one of the few non 5 or 10 level prestige classes.
Ah, I knew it wasn't 10, at any rate. :P Been a while since I played mine.
: Re: Assassin... without assassin?
: NiteCyper February 22, 2010, 02:58:56 AM
[spoiler]
Actually it's only 6 levels long. It's one of the few non 5 or 10 level prestige classes.
(http://www.searchviews.com/wp-content/themes/clean-copy-full-3-column-1/images/the_more_you_know2.jpg) (http://yfrog.com/5nue37tflsl2px)[/spoiler]
: Re: Assassin... without assassin?
: Akalsaris February 22, 2010, 04:01:38 AM
I figured the image would be one of the avengers, actually =P

Teflemmar Shadowlord with shadow-pouncing would be my choice for an assasin-type character if your DM will allow multiple pounces in a round (though it's any non-good).  Something like Swordsage 7/shadow-walker template 1/Shadowlord 5.  Then finish Shadowlord and return to swordsage. 
: Re: Assassin... without assassin?
: duncandun February 22, 2010, 04:42:21 AM
Lacks  a spell list thats as good

seriously, go double check the spell list.  for one thing, it gets shadowbolt(something like that) as a second level spell, where it is otherwise a 5th level darkness domain spell. it also gets a ton of other spells way below their normal level. granted, it does not get as many spells as an assasin, but the ones it has are rather golden.

as for builds, you are best of going either with the shadow template in that book, warlock6, or totemist. totemists get D-door via blink shirt, and it only takes a 1 level dip. some ToB is recommended, mainly the shadow hand teleportation stuff.  assasin's stance even takes care of the SA requirement.

above all, remember: 3 full attacks a round isn't as good as you would think if your damage per attack is ass. sneak attack is a really quick equalizer in that regard, but try to get other sources of bonus damage per attack.  if you decide to go totemist, consider 2 levels for a natural attack soulmeld.


EDIT: wizards made an assassin ripoff that is good aligned, called the avenger. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a)
they even used the same damn art, just moved around some color sliders in photoshop.

yeah i realize it's pretty good actually, just assassins is better(if you include non-core material).

However, it's still very useful.

I know already that multi-pounce wont fly with my DM, but I still like the idea of shadowpouncing. would be very 'cool'.

Any way to incorporate Swordsage avenger and TLSL and not be totally gimped?

edit:
maybe like swordsage5/hit n run fighter 2/avenger8/tlsl5?? shit.

bab 14? huh, dunno.
: Re: Assassin... without assassin?
: KellKheraptis February 22, 2010, 05:53:37 AM
Well, if you can reflavor RKV to work with Ur-Priest, you can go Crusader 1/Swordsage 4/Ur-Priest 2/RKV 10/xxx 3 and end up with at least BAB 16 if you use a 3/4 BAB class as a capstone.  Make it Shadow Sun Ninja to add more maneuvers and monk progression (unarmed swordsage) and with an item and a feat you'll be a full blown ninja.  Throw on the spellcasting capability of Ur-Priest, maybe with Planar Touchstone to snag Spell domain for Anyspell and Greater Anyspell, and you've got full buffing power, including two sources of sneak attack or it's equivalent (emulating Hunter's Eye + Shadow Hand maneuvers), not to mention gish staples like Greater Mighty Wallop.  And with the IL of the build above, you can snag probably both the capstones of Shadow Hand and another discipline.  I'd try and pick up the one from Tiger Claw, as it's a death attack that also royally fucks things up if it doesn't outright kill them.
: Re: Assassin... without assassin?
: JaronK February 22, 2010, 07:26:02 AM
Whispergnome Factotum 10/Mindbender 1/Unarmed Swordsage 2.  I've been playing with this build as an assassin for a while, and it's lots of fun.  Important feats are Darkstalker, Master of Poisons, Terrifying Strike, Imperious Command, Mindsight, Sickening Strike and Font of Inspiration.  Flaws are a good idea as you'll want feats... as you advance, just take more Fonts of Inspiration.  Also, do the Complete Warrior (pg 169, IIRC) trade of racial weapons to get the Gnomish Quickrazor instead of that other gnome weapon as a racial weapon.  Take the Never Outnumbered skill trick.  Max Iajuitsu Focus and Intimidate in addition to the usual stealth skills.  Make your Quickrazor a +1 Blurstriking Quickrazor of Assassination and use a Tooth of Leraje to make it +5... other enhancements as you see fit.  Also use a Splitting bow of Assassination.  Use Assassin's Stance in addition to Shadow Hand teleports and such.

Basic build concept:  wield a Gnomish Quickrazor (or two, there are gloves in MiC that give TWF) poisoned with a poison you make via Minor Creation (Black Lotus Poison or that other higher DC con poison that's plant based, DC 26 IIRC).  Using Cunning Surge + Imperious Command to cause enemies to cower without using an action, then Coup de Grace them with Iajuitsu Focus damage for the kill.  Or use poison... the Assassination property gives +1d6 sneak attack and adds the enhancement bonus of the weapon to the DC of any poison, and Terrifying Strike + Sickening Strike lower saves by 2 each.  That should be enough to land poisonous hits (effective DC is 35), which can be off your bow (which you poison all the arrows for at the beginning of the day) or your quickrazor.  And of course Iajuitsu damage is another good source of killing.  You're also hard to detect, can teleport and turn invisible, and have all kinds of other tricks up your sleave.  Not too shabby.

JaronK
: Re: Assassin... without assassin?
: Lycanthromancer February 22, 2010, 07:19:36 PM
Aw, man. Ninjas abound in this thread. I was gonna suggest factotum/swordsage. Mindbender is just gravy.

Might as well go factotum 11, though. Ignoring DR and SR is tasty.
: Re: Assassin... without assassin?
: duncandun February 22, 2010, 07:49:34 PM
Lacks  a spell list thats as good

seriously, go double check the spell list.  for one thing, it gets shadowbolt(something like that) as a second level spell, where it is otherwise a 5th level darkness domain spell. it also gets a ton of other spells way below their normal level. granted, it does not get as many spells as an assasin, but the ones it has are rather golden.

as for builds, you are best of going either with the shadow template in that book, warlock6, or totemist. totemists get D-door via blink shirt, and it only takes a 1 level dip. some ToB is recommended, mainly the shadow hand teleportation stuff.  assasin's stance even takes care of the SA requirement.

above all, remember: 3 full attacks a round isn't as good as you would think if your damage per attack is ass. sneak attack is a really quick equalizer in that regard, but try to get other sources of bonus damage per attack.  if you decide to go totemist, consider 2 levels for a natural attack soulmeld.


EDIT: wizards made an assassin ripoff that is good aligned, called the avenger. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a)
they even used the same damn art, just moved around some color sliders in photoshop.

yeah i realize it's pretty good actually, just assassins is better(if you include non-core material).

However, it's still very useful.

I know already that multi-pounce wont fly with my DM, but I still like the idea of shadowpouncing. would be very 'cool'.

Any way to incorporate Swordsage avenger and TLSL and not be totally gimped?

edit:
maybe like swordsage5/hit n run fighter 2/avenger8/tlsl5?? shit.

bab 14? huh, dunno.

anymore ideas on this?:p
: Re: Assassin... without assassin?
: NiteCyper February 22, 2010, 08:06:12 PM
Survivalist Fighter Specialist DrM variant to get Hide and Move Silently as a class skill.
: Re: Assassin... without assassin?
: Akalsaris February 23, 2010, 12:35:47 AM
Honestly, Swordsage 20 would be a perfectly good build as well.  Don't underestimate the power of 7th to 9th level maneuvers :P
: Re: Assassin... without assassin?
: Anklebite February 23, 2010, 01:03:44 AM
Honestly, Swordsage 20 would be a perfectly good build as well.  Don't underestimate the power of 7th to 9th level maneuvers :P
yeah, people tend to never even consider it. in my opinion, swordsage20 is more fun than warblade20. warblades just have too limited choices for my tastes. granted, they have a better recovery mechanic... but all swordsages take adaptive style anyways.
: Re: Assassin... without assassin?
: JaronK February 23, 2010, 01:38:14 AM
Aw, man. Ninjas abound in this thread. I was gonna suggest factotum/swordsage. Mindbender is just gravy.

Might as well go factotum 11, though. Ignoring DR and SR is tasty.

It is, but Assassin's Stance is needed to rock the Terrifying Strike/Sickening Strike action, requiring two levels of Swordsage.  And Mindsight is just plain awesome.

JaronK
: Re: Assassin... without assassin?
: bearsarebrown February 23, 2010, 02:27:02 AM
Play a tier 5 class. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7207.0)
: Re: Assassin... without assassin?
: Bauglir February 23, 2010, 02:50:29 AM
Fighter.

No, really. Ok, it depends on what sort of assassin you're aiming for. Do you mean a guy who kills people for money, or a guy who sneaks around and shoves daggers into people's precious organs when they're not looking? If the former, I've got a nice Warforged Fighter (Dungeoncrasher) who walks around in adamantine full plate, smashing victims through walls and using the resulting hole as an escape route. He relies on the fact he's good at disguise and bluff, and nobody expects him to be an assassin.

If you mean the latter, I have nothing I can offer that hasn't already been said. Still, if the DM's being restrictive in classes, sometimes it helps to diversify your ideas of what defines the character. Of course, you should always play what you want to play, I just felt like chiming in, mostly.
: Re: Assassin... without assassin?
: Akalsaris February 23, 2010, 03:37:38 AM
Aw, man. Ninjas abound in this thread. I was gonna suggest factotum/swordsage. Mindbender is just gravy.

Might as well go factotum 11, though. Ignoring DR and SR is tasty.

It is, but Assassin's Stance is needed to rock the Terrifying Strike/Sickening Strike action, requiring two levels of Swordsage.  And Mindsight is just plain awesome.

JaronK

For a factotum, I think it'd be hilarious to be a warforged and alter self into the table or a rug.  You'd be the perfect assassin!
: Re: Assassin... without assassin?
: duncandun February 23, 2010, 03:40:38 AM
Fighter.

No, really. Ok, it depends on what sort of assassin you're aiming for. Do you mean a guy who kills people for money, or a guy who sneaks around and shoves daggers into people's precious organs when they're not looking? If the former, I've got a nice Warforged Fighter (Dungeoncrasher) who walks around in adamantine full plate, smashing victims through walls and using the resulting hole as an escape route. He relies on the fact he's good at disguise and bluff, and nobody expects him to be an assassin.

If you mean the latter, I have nothing I can offer that hasn't already been said. Still, if the DM's being restrictive in classes, sometimes it helps to diversify your ideas of what defines the character. Of course, you should always play what you want to play, I just felt like chiming in, mostly.

TBH, a straight up assassin wouldn't work in my game.

It's mostly good(non evil), but after 7 months of playing a melee cleric, I'm just getting bored of not being able to do the sneaky subtly stuff. I also adore rogues/sneaky characters and assassin is one of my favorites to play.

: Re: Assassin... without assassin?
: Littha February 23, 2010, 01:51:03 PM
For a factotum, I think it'd be hilarious to be a warforged and alter self into the table or a rug.  You'd be the perfect assassin!

Alter self: Animated Door with the silent portal disk would obviously be the best assassin lol...
: Re: Assassin... without assassin?
: Milamber February 23, 2010, 02:02:07 PM
If your campaign sports lots of undead take a look at Skullclan Hunter.
: Re: Assassin... without assassin?
: NiteCyper February 23, 2010, 02:34:19 PM
Alter self: Animated Door with the silent portal disk would obviously be the best assassin lol...
It was argued that this only changes the noise it makes on its hinge. You're not gonna hop on your hinge. Hopefully, I can find a citation. I think the thread had the word "Haunt Shift' in the title, or it was "Incorporeal Swordsage, iminurobjects movin around".
: Re: Assassin... without assassin?
: Lycanthromancer February 23, 2010, 02:37:55 PM
Alter self: Animated Door with the silent portal disk would obviously be the best assassin lol...
It was argued that this only changes the noise it makes on its hinge. You're not gonna hop on your hinge. Hopefully, I can find a citation. I think the thread had the word "Haunt Shift' in the title, or it was "Incorporeal Swordsage, iminurobjects movin around".
"My plan is working. They've become unhinged." [/Mi-mi-mimic!]
: Re: Assassin... without assassin?
: Stormcrow February 24, 2010, 04:23:55 PM
well i have been playing around with that idea for a while of the assassin with out the assassin or avenger class in fact i just resurrected a gestate build of it here

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=187735

note her/his main type of combat is to infiltrate get as close to the victim as possible rise a lot of hell then get a way in the confusion if that does not sound like a assassination / espionage character what is  ? aslo if you see areas for improvement feel free to say something
: Re: Assassin... without assassin?
: KellKheraptis February 24, 2010, 04:34:27 PM
Other than the gish build I posted in the other assassin thread, there is also the option of TML's TK assassin, which is take a bunch of tweaked blunt weapons and fling them for ungodly damage at your target.  Hell, include ways of dropping D&D nuclear weaponry (Locate City Bombs, Apocalypse from the Sky, etc) and you can even be obvious about it, since they'll be a lot more worried about the mushroom clouds :P
: Re: Assassin... without assassin?
: The_Mad_Linguist February 24, 2010, 04:44:16 PM
Other than the gish build I posted in the other assassin thread, there is also the option of TML's TK assassin, which is take a bunch of tweaked blunt weapons and fling them for ungodly damage at your target.  Hell, include ways of dropping D&D nuclear weaponry (Locate City Bombs, Apocalypse from the Sky, etc) and you can even be obvious about it, since they'll be a lot more worried about the mushroom clouds :P
Blunt weapons?  I take offense, sir - I only deal the finest in piercing and slashing damage.

I'm not even going to mention what I think the ultimate race is for an assassin, since by now my position on the matter should be clear.
: Re: Assassin... without assassin?
: Anklebite February 24, 2010, 04:46:30 PM
Other than the gish build I posted in the other assassin thread, there is also the option of TML's TK assassin, which is take a bunch of tweaked blunt weapons and fling them for ungodly damage at your target.  Hell, include ways of dropping D&D nuclear weaponry (Locate City Bombs, Apocalypse from the Sky, etc) and you can even be obvious about it, since they'll be a lot more worried about the mushroom clouds :P
Blunt weapons?  I take offense, sir - I only deal the finest in piercing and slashing damage.

I'm not even going to mention what I think the ultimate race is for an assassin, since by now my position on the matter should be clear.

yeah, but you can't chain spell greater mighty wallop pointy things, can you? with exception to morningstars, ofc.
: Re: Assassin... without assassin?
: KellKheraptis February 24, 2010, 04:51:59 PM
Besides...you can make a case for beating the enemy to death when you talk to his superiors later :P
: Re: Assassin... without assassin?
: duncandun February 24, 2010, 06:04:52 PM
Quick question:

What is a 'kill effect'?