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The Thinktank => Min/Max It! => : Dusk Eclipse February 03, 2010, 08:28:31 PM

: Wizard killing gish Build
: Dusk Eclipse February 03, 2010, 08:28:31 PM
Earlier today I got in an "argument" with a friend concerning his gnome wizard, to make things shorter we ended up scheduling a match to see the power of his wizard against whatever I could build.

My idea is to make a gish focused on killing wizards, the problem is that mi gish-building fu is REALLY weak so I humbly ask the BG community to give me a push in the right direction.

The building rules are:
ECL 20
Restricted to SRD+Complete+Races+SPC+MIC

I intend to do the build myself but any help will be greatly appreciated

My original idea was a gish which deal as much negative levels he can afford to to limit the spellcasting of my friend, then close in for the kill.

Thanks in advance

: Re: Wizard killing gish Build
: Flay Crimsonwind February 03, 2010, 08:37:52 PM
Well, what kind of wizard are you competing against? A mildly competent GOD? An evoker? It will totally depend on how you want to shut him down.

To nuke the crap out of him with debuff though, you CAN neg. level him, though I don't have a lot of experience with trying to knock lv 20 wizards down to size. One thing I can say is, if you can find a way to hit him with spells (like I asked, mildly competent GOD or no? This could be hard...), you might only need an Ray of Exhaustion/Escalating Enfeeblement to leave him at str 0, or unable to move and completely helpless (coup de grace, motha fucka!)

This also makes it much more generic wizard killer (not traditionally Vin Diesels), and not a "I totally beat you with a build designed to kill your charrie specifically, which must show how weak it was!" You build from there with spell penetration and maybe an AMF or two.  :D
: Re: Wizard killing gish Build
: Dusk Eclipse February 03, 2010, 08:41:22 PM
I don't exactly know what kind of wizard he is (joined the gaming group when that particular campaing was almost finished), as far as I know he is a generic wizard that likes to do a bit of BFC and then close in while shapechanged.
: Re: Wizard killing gish Build
: Negative Zero February 03, 2010, 08:46:17 PM
It sort of violates the ethics of the duel to ask us for help in a "which of us is better at making wizards", doesn't it? Oh well.

But if you're going negative levels, you could get a Twinned, Empowered, Maximized, Split Enervation for (4+1d4/2)*2*2 negative levels. On average, that's 20 negative levels, enough to kill his Wizard with no save. You'd want Arcane Thesis (Enervation), assuming PHB2 is allowed. A few Practical Metamagics (Races of the Dragon) and Metamagic School Foci (Complete Mage) ought to help out, too. Sudden Empower and Sudden Maximize (Complete Mage?) can help keep the spell slot low, too.
: Re: Wizard killing gish Build
: Alastar February 03, 2010, 08:51:12 PM
I think what we're asking here is:

Does he have Celerity
Does he have abrupt jaunt
Does he have greater mirror image.

Actually all of those are in PHB2, so technically, he doesn'T!

But then, neither do you, and you don't have access to incantatrix or arcane thesis....

So yeah, abjurer 3/Master Specialist 4/Initiate of the seven fold veil 7/Master Specialist +7 should do the trick.

The veils protect you from pretty much anything.

You quicken Greater Dispel him with a total of +26 to the roll (including dispelling cords) then cast time stop, Greater shadow evocation to slap him in a forcecage, cast dimensional lock, and then slap 3 maw of chaos (2 of them maximised) near him.  (you maximise the time stop and 2 of the maws with your rod of maximise)

You win initiative by having improved ini, maxed dex, and moment of prescience up.
: Re: Wizard killing gish Build
: KellKheraptis February 03, 2010, 08:55:40 PM
Might wanna chain that GDM too...my GOD wizards have more contingencies than hairs (and usually tend to look like a LeShay, for reference).
: Re: Wizard killing gish Build
: Flay Crimsonwind February 03, 2010, 09:00:41 PM
Gish build, not just a wizard build. But yeah, the spells you want aren't incredibly high level, nor are they difficult for a gish to abuse (though I don't know why a gish specifically is your thing...).
: Re: Wizard killing gish Build
: Dusk Eclipse February 03, 2010, 09:18:52 PM
It sort of violates the ethics of the duel to ask us for help in a "which of us is better at making wizards", doesn't it? Oh well.

Well the duel is more like an exercise, he wants to know how his wizard would fare against a pseudo-o`ptimized character....
I think what we're asking here is:

Does he have Celerity
Does he have abrupt jaunt
Does he have greater mirror image.

Actually all of those are in PHB2, so technically, he doesn'T!

But then, neither do you, and you don't have access to incantatrix or arcane thesis....

So yeah, abjurer 3/Master Specialist 4/Initiate of the seven fold veil 7/Master Specialist +7 should do the trick.

The veils protect you from pretty much anything.

You quicken Greater Dispel him with a total of +26 to the roll (including dispelling cords) then cast time stop, Greater shadow evocation to slap him in a forcecage, cast dimensional lock, and then slap 3 maw of chaos (2 of them maximised) near him.  (you maximise the time stop and 2 of the maws with your rod of maximise)

You win initiative by having improved ini, maxed dex, and moment of prescience up.

I don't know if he actually has those spells, the limit was because I thought it would be fun to do so

Might wanna chain that GDM too...my GOD wizards have more contingencies than hairs (and usually tend to look like a LeShay, for reference).
.... ??? what


Gish build, not just a wizard build. But yeah, the spells you want aren't incredibly high level, nor are they difficult for a gish to abuse (though I don't know why a gish specifically is your thing...).

Gish because I love gishes and I have been wanting to play a high level one.
: Re: Wizard killing gish Build
: Flay Crimsonwind February 03, 2010, 09:25:13 PM
.... ??? what
Chain is a metamagic, contingency is a spell that makes wizards nigh-unkillable. Chaining GMD (greater dispel magic) would help get rid of those pesky murderous contingencies.
: Re: Wizard killing gish Build
: Dusk Eclipse February 03, 2010, 09:26:39 PM
.... ??? what
Chain is a metamagic, contingency is a spell that makes wizards nigh-unkillable. Chaining GMD (greater dispel magic) would help get rid of those pesky murderous contingencies.

Oh thanks, now I understand
: Re: Wizard killing gish Build
: The_Mad_Linguist February 03, 2010, 10:40:50 PM
Comple champion has affiliations.

Knowledge affiliation is awesome for mage-slaying.  Fort save, or lose spellcasting for a minute.  Get it. 
: Re: Wizard killing gish Build
: PhaedrusXY February 04, 2010, 12:36:55 AM
A more traditional approach: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=346.msg95287#msg95287
: Re: Wizard killing gish Build
: Dusk Eclipse February 04, 2010, 01:35:25 AM
I know this build kinda breaks my own limitation but I might want to use it on other location and I want some critiques

Race:Loredrake Kobold  (Preferably Desert)
Build Stub Stalwart Sorcerer 5/ Swiftblade 10/ Abjurant Champion 4
Pick up a heavy flail for your martial weapon proficiency

Feats are most likely
1 Dragonwrought
3 Dodge
6 Mobility
9Greater Rite of Draconic Passage
12 Power attack
15 Arcane Strike
18 Open

You use the loredrake and GRoDP to offset the CL loss of Swiftblade

Gear of noting
Minor Eschema of Greater Mighty Wallop
Minor Eschema of Greater Magic Weapon
Slipers of Battledancing


So what do you think?
: Re: Wizard killing gish Build
: fun_at_funerals February 04, 2010, 03:39:00 AM
Thunderlance is a great spell if you want a gish type weapon. 20 foot reach and Int to attack and damage. I believe it also has a Dispel Magic effect tied to it.

You're in a bit of trouble if he goes Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil as the class's warding ability can pretty much stop anything. Even Anti-Magic Fields can't penetrate the warding.

Swiftblade's a good idea for the additional actions, Time Stop, and Initiative bonus which, as I see it, seems like the only advantage you can hope to gain from a dedicated wizard. Be the first to act and act often. If you can get an Arcane Spellsurge spell on a Contingency, that'll pretty much ensure that you always out cast him. Nerveskitter's another spell that'll help with the initiative.

It really boils down to who goes first, I think. Win initiative, hit him hard with negative levels asap to gimp his spellcasting or an Anti-magic ray to neutralize it totally. You pretty much win from then on (Unless he's playing a Necropolitan/Undead Gnome that worships Mystra)
: Re: Wizard killing gish Build
: KellKheraptis February 04, 2010, 03:47:28 AM
Have a look in the War Weaver guide here at the Arcane Archer builds.  They are the masters of action abuse, still get 9th level spells, and do nasty things to enemy mages when they win initiative (which they usually do).
: Re: Wizard killing gish Build
: The_Mad_Linguist February 04, 2010, 04:19:05 AM
If you're allowed a single book to break the limitation, consider a sharn.


Sharns: they're the next ghost savage progression (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a)
: Re: Wizard killing gish Build
: GawainBS February 04, 2010, 05:55:13 AM
Have a familiar that can fly, cast AMF on you both, send him with his move action to stick close to the Wizard, and ready his standard action to follow the Wizard? Then close in yourself to finish it. Ofcourse, this plan has more holes than a sief. :P
: Re: Wizard killing gish Build
: Tonymitsu February 04, 2010, 05:49:37 PM
There's a lot of things regarding a "duel" that are extremely important when considering what kind of build you are going to make.

Are you two going to face off in front of each other?  How far apart do you start?  Will it be your guy jumping his, or vice versa?
Where is this going to happen?  In a prepared arena?  In a field?  A random layer of the Abyss?
What does the arena look like?  Are there obstructions?  If the ground made of stone?  Wood?  A metal that can't be affected by magic?
How do you determine a winner?  First person to be rendered helpless?  First person to leave the battle?  Can he win by plane shifting you away, even if you could make it back under your own power?

You seem to have a huge advantage here because you have and are permitted to use insider knowledge on his character and he'll be completely unprepared for you.

Assuming this is a face to face duel, the simplest way to win?

Use the Extraordinary Spell Aim feat (Complete Adventurer) to exclude yourself from your own Antimagic Field.  Then just win at rocket tag and keep him in front of you by whatever means necessary.
Expect to get things thrown at you for using this approach though.
: Re: Wizard killing gish Build
: The_Mad_Linguist February 04, 2010, 05:52:40 PM
Telekinesis is probably the best blasting spell in existence in terms of ease-of-use, raw damage potential, and ability-to-fire-into-an-amf
: Re: Wizard killing gish Build
: Negative Zero February 04, 2010, 06:12:48 PM
I'd optimize tripping, get that extraordinary spell-aimed AMF, and then run up and beat him to death. The AMF is only ten feet wide, but he can't five-foot step out. You'll probably want a reach weapon so he can't Withdraw out, either. I'd say to use a reach weapon and armor spikes, so he can't escape the AMF, and he'll therefore lose. You'll need to make sure you win initiative, though.
: Re: Wizard killing gish Build
: KellKheraptis February 04, 2010, 06:51:27 PM
I'd optimize tripping, get that extraordinary spell-aimed AMF, and then run up and beat him to death. The AMF is only ten feet wide, but he can't five-foot step out. You'll probably want a reach weapon so he can't Withdraw out, either. I'd say to use a reach weapon and armor spikes, so he can't escape the AMF, and he'll therefore lose. You'll need to make sure you win initiative, though.

And bring down his contingencies...and make sure his familiar doesn't have benign transposition available...and make sure he doesn't have invoke magic...and ensure he doesn't have a cone hat...lots of prep in taking down Tippy, after all ;)