"True Dragons are winged, reptilelike creatures of ancient lineage. They are known and feared for their size, physical prowess, and magical abilities. The oldest dragons are among the most powerful creatures in the world.
The known varieties of true dragons (as opposed to other creatures that have the dragon type) fall into two broad categories: chromatic and metallic. The chromatic dragons are black, blue, green, red, and white; they are all evil and extremely fierce. The metallic dragons are brass, bronze, copper, gold, and silver; they are all good, usually noble, and highly respected by the wise.
All true dragons gain more abilities and greater power as they age. (Other creatures that have the dragon type do not.) They range in length from several feet upon hatching to more than 100 feet after attaining the status of great wyrm. The size of a particular dragon varies according to age and variety.
A dragon’s metabolism operates like a highly efficient furnace and can metabolize even inorganic material. Some dragons have developed a taste for such fare. "
"True Dragons are those creatures that become more powerful as they grow older... Other creatures of the dragon type that do not advance through age catagories are referred to as lesser dragons."
On point 3, they may become "more powerful" as they age, but in a way not shared by any existing True Dragon (which gain size, HD, natural armour, caster levels and SLAs). The way they become more powerful is one shared by every living creature. True, most creatures take penalties to their physical ability scores as they age, but True Dragons lose Dex and AC too. The list could not be referring to this, as if any creature whose ability scores change due to age is counted then there would be no need for point 3 in the first place.
I forget, do all kobolds have age categories or just dragonwrought ones? If the former, would a half-dragon kobold monk with Timeless Body count as a True Dragon?
IIRC Dragonlance more specifically defines True Dragons as being creatures with the dragon type and age categories... I think it's DragonLance Campaign Setting, but can't recall exact reference.
For making builds as a theoretical exercise, sure. In game use, feh.
For making builds as a theoretical exercise, sure. In game use, feh.
Well, as I said, I don't think it's balanced for most games.
With that said, I'm playing one right now (a Cleric with the archtype that gives bonus feats, in a game where most of the PCs are SA Kobolds. But it's WLD and that dungeon is really hard anyway, and we're intentionally playing in character stupid, so it balances out).
JaronK
The Monster Manual states:All true dragons gain more abilities and greater power as they age. (Other creatures that have the dragon type do not.) They range in length from several feet upon hatching to more than 100 feet after attaining the status of great wyrm. The size of a particular dragon varies according to age and variety.
This is full of incorrect information. Not all True Dragons are Chromatic or Metallic (Gem Dragons, Lung Dragons, Shadow Dragons, Planar Dragons, and so on are neither). White Dragons never grow to over 100 feet.
[snip]
Not to nitpick, but A)I'm pretty sure there's such a spell somewhere, and B)getting into the really powerful entities, deities with the Divine Fire Mastery SDA can perceive any living being automatically by the disturbance in heat they create. And really, anything, by the disturbance in ambient heat :P Gogo DnD Doplar!
Not to nitpick, but A)I'm pretty sure there's such a spell somewhere, and B)getting into the really powerful entities, deities with the Divine Fire Mastery SDA can perceive any living being automatically by the disturbance in heat they create. And really, anything, by the disturbance in ambient heat :P Gogo DnD Doplar!
Even cold blooded creatures will be seen with the SDA though. Cold blooded makes you less hot.
Not to nitpick, but A)I'm pretty sure there's such a spell somewhere, and B)getting into the really powerful entities, deities with the Divine Fire Mastery SDA can perceive any living being automatically by the disturbance in heat they create. And really, anything, by the disturbance in ambient heat :P Gogo DnD Doplar!
Even cold blooded creatures will be seen with the SDA though. Cold blooded makes you less hot.
Hence use of the term ANY living being :D And as I said, any object too, since everything has a unique heat signature (yay physics class).
Not to nitpick, but A)I'm pretty sure there's such a spell somewhere, and B)getting into the really powerful entities, deities with the Divine Fire Mastery SDA can perceive any living being automatically by the disturbance in heat they create. And really, anything, by the disturbance in ambient heat :P Gogo DnD Doplar!
Even cold blooded creatures will be seen with the SDA though. Cold blooded makes you less hot.
Hence use of the term ANY living being :D And as I said, any object too, since everything has a unique heat signature (yay physics class).
I had no idea this SDA existed. Now I need to figure out how to hide from it....
And here I thought a pimped Hide modifer + Darkstalker + Mind Blank + Vecna Blooded + Telekinetic Static was enough to hide from anything!
I'm guessing you'd added the last after I mentioned Transdimensional Touchsight?
Yeah, but if someone can make the knowledge check about you, they can turn off your vecna bloodedness for a minute (knowlede domain affiliation).I'm guessing you'd added the last after I mentioned Transdimensional Touchsight?
No actually, just for extra redundancy. I figured out how to block it. You gotta be Incorporeal.
Yeah, but if someone can make the knowledge check about you, they can turn off your vecna bloodedness for a minute (knowlede domain affiliation).I'm guessing you'd added the last after I mentioned Transdimensional Touchsight?
No actually, just for extra redundancy. I figured out how to block it. You gotta be Incorporeal.
Can you make a DC 40?Yeah, but if someone can make the knowledge check about you, they can turn off your vecna bloodedness for a minute (knowlede domain affiliation).I'm guessing you'd added the last after I mentioned Transdimensional Touchsight?
No actually, just for extra redundancy. I figured out how to block it. You gotta be Incorporeal.
Don't I get a fort save?
Also note : Transdimensional Touchsight. Being incorporeal won't help you one bit :)
Ah, found the reference.
The Draconic Vampirism feat from Dragons of Krynn, 169
"If you strike the killing blow against a true dragon (a creature of the dragon type that possesses an age
category)"
Nah, there's a will save to absorb it's soul, then you just get one temporary hit die per age category it's a spellcasting true dragon (Temp HD lost at a rate of one per week). Otherwise, you just recover some HP.Ah, found the reference.What does that do again? Please say it lets one become a True Dragon...
The Draconic Vampirism feat from Dragons of Krynn, 169
"If you strike the killing blow against a true dragon (a creature of the dragon type that possesses an age
category)"
So how do you hide the hole in their sight? :pAlso note : Transdimensional Touchsight. Being incorporeal won't help you one bit :)
The incorporeal bit was to hide fro the SDA. I didn't give as much thought to that Touchsight has I should have. I... I don't know how to hide from that! Blocking LoE is the only way... I could walk around in a levitating box of lead :P
EDIt: But really, let's brainstorm how to hide from that. You generate a subtle telekinetic field of mental contact... MAYBE lets Telekinetic Static block it. negating the telepathy ability of all creatures.
So how do you hide the hole in their sight? :pAlso note : Transdimensional Touchsight. Being incorporeal won't help you one bit :)
The incorporeal bit was to hide fro the SDA. I didn't give as much thought to that Touchsight has I should have. I... I don't know how to hide from that! Blocking LoE is the only way... I could walk around in a levitating box of lead :P
EDIt: But really, let's brainstorm how to hide from that. You generate a subtle telekinetic field of mental contact... MAYBE lets Telekinetic Static block it. negating the telepathy ability of all creatures.
So how do you hide the hole in their sight? :pAlso note : Transdimensional Touchsight. Being incorporeal won't help you one bit :)
The incorporeal bit was to hide fro the SDA. I didn't give as much thought to that Touchsight has I should have. I... I don't know how to hide from that! Blocking LoE is the only way... I could walk around in a levitating box of lead :P
EDIt: But really, let's brainstorm how to hide from that. You generate a subtle telekinetic field of mental contact... MAYBE lets Telekinetic Static block it. negating the telepathy ability of all creatures.
"True Dragons are those creatures that become more powerful as they grow older... Other creatures of the dragon type that do not advance through age categories are referred to as lesser dragons."Take a look at all established true dragons, they all have something in common: Their Advancement line specifically mentions age categories. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm)
At no time does a Dragonwrought Kobold gain a benefit from entering one of the 12 age categories.
By the RAW argument for True Dragon Kobolds, anything that can claim a bonus for aging and the dragon type would qualify.
Is this shit turning into the new Deepwarden debate? :rollseyes
:lol
Is this shit turning into the new Deepwarden debate? :rollseyes
:lol
:fo
I can't help but want to educate stupid people, no matter how stubborn they are... :banghead
Ugh, this cheese again. :banghead It gets me that this is sincerely suggested time and time again as RAW, and reasonable. Pointing people in the direction of a dubious reading of the rules based on flavor text with no mechanical effects is a disservice.
me from a class, feat, spell, or template, or unearthed generic aging rules.
This is a repost from another debate, but I'm putting here so as to spell out the RAW proof that Kobolds count as True Dragons. Note that I am by no means arguing that it's intended or balanced that they do so, or that DMs shouldn't houserule against it, only that the rules state as muchThis is not presented as reasonable or even that it should ever be applied to a game, just that it's RAW. That Dragonwrough Kobolds are True dragons is correct by RAW, though we are pretty sure it was not RAI.
JaronK
DW Kobolds improve as they age: (1) shortly after popping out of the egg , (2) the three oldest age categoriesand herein lies the problem that I have had with the whole dragonwrought kobold CO concept (not that I have a problem with anything inherent in the dw kobold; just the interpretation of feat availability).
They also age according to the Dragon age category chart.
**
<snip>
Then it can only utilize the Epic feats on the every 3 levels regular feat slots.
<snip>
By the RAW argument for True Dragon Kobolds, anything that can claim a bonus for aging and the dragon type would qualify. Warforged Dragon Disciple as a True Dragon? :rollseyes Heck, any creature of the Dragon type would qualify if it had any age related bonuses, even if they came from a class, feat, spell, or template, or unearthed generic aging rules.
he issue is that when new rules come out related to a basic concept (in this case, epic feat availability), those new rules stack on top of the older rules, unless the new rule explicitly states that it is replacing the old one.
well, my conclusion that the entry is a clarification/consolidation is simply what I inferred (to answer for myself the question "why is this even here?") -- I know it isn't stated; this is simply my personal conclusion as to RAI (which, as I very well know, is not RAW).he issue is that when new rules come out related to a basic concept (in this case, epic feat availability), those new rules stack on top of the older rules, unless the new rule explicitly states that it is replacing the old one.
So the rule is now "21 levels/HD OR True Dragon of Old of Older for epic."
Not only would your reading make the Draconomicon redundant, it isn't actually supported by the text involved. Nowhere does it mention that the Draconomicon statement is a clarification or consolidation; it is an additional rule that did not exist before stacked onto the old rules. It cannot, by the words written, be anything else.
To the contrary, the way that it is worded indicates that it is an "in addition to" or a "for clarification" situation.
"In Lieu Of" means "instead; in place of; as a substitute for."I think you misunderstand what I was saying --
It's not in addition, you've got the entire meaning backwards. It does not mean in addition, it does not mean the old thing still applies. It specifically mean it does not apply.
JaronK
first -- FTFY :pTo the contrary, the way that it is worded indicates that it is an "in addition to" or a "for clarification" situation.
I beg to differ. The Draconomicon on epic feats, page 66:
"These feats are available to characters of 21st level or higher. Dragons of at least old age also can choose these feats even if they have no class levels."
Emphasis mine, of course.
The underlined is quite clear.
Incidentally, it doesn't even state True Dragons.
Unless, of course, you can bring out some actual text with a page reference that disputes this.
And I do discount your RaI, it is quite clear to me that it is intended for Dragons to be able to access epic feats based on age, just not that it is intended for such an ability to see play in a 0 LA character race.
Honestly, from a game balance standpoint it's really no real biggie. The only decent epic feats (without epic prereqs like BAB 21, or spellcraft 24 ranks, or whatever) aren't nearly as good as, say, divine metamagic. I mean, sure, epic toughness gives a lot of hp for a first level character, but a two-feat investment is probably about right - after all, toughness sucks majorly, and improved toughness is hardly better.well, now, that's a different issue entirely :p
For comparison, Troll-blooded does "staying alive" far better, and the combination of "tomb tainted soul" and charnel touch isn't too far behind.
On the other end of the scale, we have real stinkers like "improved low light vision",
you're right -- it doesn't specifically state "true" dragons -- but "true" dragons are the only ones that ever have a listed age progression; thus, making any other dragon-types irrelevant to the discussion.
I know what I'm thinking, I'm just not sure in what order to put what words to make it more clear
Ejo -- you are being inconsistent in how you adjudicate descriptive text. this is reminiscent of our discussion over leadership. (well, there is consistency -- you ignore context when convenient) :P
well, I was hoping that you would have realized that I was being facetious, with the inclusion of the " :P" -- it was simply meant as playful banter.Ejo -- you are being inconsistent in how you adjudicate descriptive text. this is reminiscent of our discussion over leadership. (well, there is consistency -- you ignore context when convenient) :P
Please back up such wild accusations if you feel like tossing them around.
It would appear that you seem to think I am inconsistently applying 'fluff' because you fail to understand the difference between a usually meaningless rule and information that is not a rule.
1. Mostly it's here because it's nice to gather up all the source information so people can see a quick summary of how this works.
2. First let's note that there's a lot of contradictory information on True Dragons. ... This is full of incorrect information. ... We need a rock solid statement of what a True Dragon is in D&D, and this isn't it. Don't worry, we'll get one.
3. We can find it in Draconomicron on page 4, in a handy sidebar entitled "The Different Kinds of Dragons": ... Okay, now that's a nice solid definition that we can work with. Note that the sidebar claims to list every True and Lesser Dragon printed to date, but doesn't list Kobolds in either one, so that part isn't terribly helpful.
4. Point 3: Do Dragonwrought Kobolds "become more powerful as they grow older?" Absolutely. They in fact slowly gain bonuses to their mental stats, up to +3 when they gain Great Wyrm status.
5. Hopefully that should clear everything up, with source material.
3. RotD does list aging categories and aging effects for kobolds. As pointed out in the posts before hand all True Dragons lack aging effects, make of this what you will.All monster races that don't explicitly have detailed write-ups for use as PCs lack aging tables. It doesn't mean anything at all. Gnolls don't have aging tables, either. Does this mean they don't gain bonuses and penalties as in the aging tables?
So I haven't bothered to read this ridiculous thread, but could someone tell me what's the point to this whole thing from a CO perspective? There's the mental stat boosts, epic feats, what else?Dragon archtypes (or whatever the hell they're called) from Eberron. Mainly the one that adds +2 to your sorcerer levels.
Any good Dragon forms for Alter Self?Here is the list of them from my Alter Self thread. Lilt compiled them, though. In general, they're good for flight speed and natural armor.
Some Dragon-typed forms:
Crested Felldrake (MM2), 2HD, 4 NA, s, 40ft, Bite (1d8)
Spitting Felldrake (MM2), 3HD, 4 NA, m, 30ft, Bite (1d6)
Fang Dragon (MoF), 3HD, 2 NA, t, 60 + Fly 90 (Average) Trip*
Horned Felldrake (MM2), 4HD, 7 NA, m, 30ft, Horn (2d6), Charge* (4d6+2*Strength)
Wyrmling Ethereal Dragon (Drac), 4HD, 3 NA, t, 60 + Fly 60 (poor)
Wyrmling Shadow Dragon (Drac), 4HD, 7 NA, t, 80 (Capped at 60) + Fly 150 (Capped at 120) (Average)
Wyrmling Battle Dragon (Drac), 5HD, 5NA, t, 40, Fly 100 (average)
The above come with 2 claws and a bite for 1d3 and 1d4 respectively.
Wyrmling Styx Dragon (Drac), 5HD, 4 NA, s, 60ft + Swim 60ft + Burrow 20ft, 2 Tail Blades (1d6) + Bite (1d6), Improved Grab* Constrict* (For 2*Tail Blade Damage)
Portal Drake (Underdark), 5HD, 4 NA, s, 40ft + Burrow 20ft + Fly 90 (Average), Bite (1d6) + 2 Claws (1d4), +4 Hide and Move Silently
Wyrmling Crystal Dragon (MM2), 5HD, 4 NA, s, 40ft + Fly 100ft (average) + Burrow 5ft + Swim 40ft
Wyrmling Sapphire Dragon (MM2), 5HD, 3 NA, t, 40ft + Fly 100ft (average) + Burrow 15ft + Swim 10ft
Sources:
BoED = Book of Exalted Heeds
Drac = Draconomicon
FRCS/MoF = Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting or Monsters of Feyrun
MiniHB = Miniatures Handbook
MM2 = Monster Manual 2
PlanarHB = Planar Handbook
So I haven't bothered to read this ridiculous thread, but could someone tell me what's the point to this whole thing from a CO perspective? There's the mental stat boosts, epic feats, what else?
See Races of the Wild for Gnolls, but the point stands. Show me the aging table for Goblins. What? There isn't one? How about Minotaurs? Nope? Trolls or Pixies? Nada.3. RotD does list aging categories and aging effects for kobolds. As pointed out in the posts before hand all True Dragons lack aging effects, make of this what you will.All monster races that don't explicitly have detailed write-ups for use as PCs lack aging tables. It doesn't mean anything at all. Gnolls don't have aging tables, either. Does this mean they don't gain bonuses and penalties as in the aging tables?
So I haven't bothered to read this ridiculous thread, but could someone tell me what's the point to this whole thing from a CO perspective? There's the mental stat boosts, epic feats, what else?Dragons of krynn offers draconic vampirism, which is an incredible feat for thrallherds. Temp hit dice equal to your cha bonus.
2. The more abilities as they age single handled shuts down the entire dragonwrought thing. Nice move by saying 'ignore this because it's bad' as your defense against it. Ignoring some things is how to get the job done in a thread covering the facts right?
3. You dash off saying the fact the list doesn't include kobolds is meanlingless as RotD wasn't out then, but reach in and nab 'more powerful' to replace MM's 'more abilities', again for some reason I just like the style and I'm not speaking on a condescending or insulting way. The voice in my head saying what you wrote doesn't come off at all like a mentally handicapped guy, theres just some quirk to it like it's so unreal you would post something like that I cannot accept any other idea than you meant some form of mockery yet your are serious which makes it entertaining to me Like an lol cat or something.
Side question: Are/Were you Catholic?
4. So do undead, every 100 years they have new spell-like abilities and a boost to charisma. So? Srsly, your entire post could have been sumed down to 'kobolds are dragon's because I said so' rather than being so lengthy.
1. MM's rules are not replaced, more abilities is still required and kobolds don't gain new abilities based solely off aging. Unless they are undead, but then your not living so you are not really aging either.
2. Draconomicon doesn't list Kobolds as dragons as at the time no D&D writer working on the project felt kobolds were more than bottom dwelling lizard-servants to real dragons.
In fact, they aren't even lessor dragons, just scum.
As a side note, Draconomicon features an entire section dedicated to advancing dragons and as it turns out. Every 4 HD a true dragon advances in size so you're 20th level Kobold would be Gargantuan creature if you really paid attention to the rules. Also, the true dragon's breath weapon advances too. ... Well at least your str/dex goes up as your kobold ages right?
3. RotD does list aging categories and aging effects for kobolds. As pointed out in the posts before hand all True Dragons lack aging effects, make of this what you will.
4. RotD has an entire section of rules on kobolds. They get glanced over due to being flavor however it one were to look in the section kobolds and other races lo and bohold True Dragons are still considered to be an entirely separate race by the writers of the book so claimed to say they are one and the same. Again, make of that what you will since the tables totally override the descriptions right?
5. Page 4 of RotD lists kobolds and true dragons separately for the MM and completely lacks true dragons in it's own RotD listing suggesting of course nothing presented in RotD is a true dragon. Foreshadowing the intent of the kobold chapter perhaps?
6. Draconic Heritage's table on page 103 lists all true dragons to date by it's own admittance. RAW is flat out not including kobolds as true dragons even in the RotD, which of course is why JaronK had to ignore entire sections of content for his thread.
When choosing between two contradictory sources, one should pick the primary source, and one should pick the one that isn't already proven false (or at least proven not to be a strict definition).Well, if you truly want to use logic here you can simply state that you have an inconsistent system (i.e. with some statements contradicting others). The rest is you picking the ones that say what you like. :)
Well, if you truly want to use logic here you can simply state that you have an inconsistent system (i.e. with some statements contradicting others). The rest is you picking the ones that say what you like. :)
The Draconomicon on epic feats, page 66:
"These feats are available to characters of 21st level or higher. Dragons of at least old age also can choose these feats even if they have no class levels."
Emphasis mine mine, of course.
A less-than Old Dragonwrought Kobold
as it turns out. Every 4 HD a true dragon advances in size so you're 20th level Kobold would be Gargantuan creature if you really paid attention to the rules. Also, the true dragon's breath weapon advances too.
As pointed out in the posts before hand all True Dragons lack aging effects, make of this what you will.
I was hoping that you would have realized ... it was simply meant as playful banter.
Remember, we all know that it was never intended for Kobolds to be True Dragons. But that does not change the fact that, by the rules as presented, they can be.
and frankly a Dragonwrought Kobold running around telling everyone how technically he's a True Dragon would be hilarious and awesome and totally fitting the Kobold mindset as defined in Races of the Dragon.I was in an (unfortunately short) PbP with a kobold sorcerer who did just that. He even said "Just call me Dragon. That's right, just Dragon." It was hilarious. :D
I'm in an all dragon game in WLD in fact, with 90% Kobolds (and a few Dragonborn). Our standard strategy is to kick in the door while shouting "STAND BACK BEFORE THE MIGHT OF DRAGONS!" Then we ran into an encounter that was full of Kobolds. They said "Okay!" And then we went on our way. It was awesome.:lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao
JaronK
I would love to see a dragonwrought kobold who acted like that encounter a more traditional true dragon. Especially if the kobold wins the fight which is not unlikely.As I believe I've mentioned before on these forums, in my campaign setting dragons were made in the image of kobolds, rather than the other way around.
:lolI would love to see a dragonwrought kobold who acted like that encounter a more traditional true dragon. Especially if the kobold wins the fight which is not unlikely.As I believe I've mentioned before on these forums, in my campaign setting dragons were made in the image of kobolds, rather than the other way around.
+1 to that:lolI would love to see a dragonwrought kobold who acted like that encounter a more traditional true dragon. Especially if the kobold wins the fight which is not unlikely.As I believe I've mentioned before on these forums, in my campaign setting dragons were made in the image of kobolds, rather than the other way around.
A less-than Old Dragonwrought Kobold
They exist(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/83/Interrobang.svg/20px-Interrobang.svg.png)
+1 to that:lolI would love to see a dragonwrought kobold who acted like that encounter a more traditional true dragon. Especially if the kobold wins the fight which is not unlikely.As I believe I've mentioned before on these forums, in my campaign setting dragons were made in the image of kobolds, rather than the other way around.
Seriously JaronK, stop feeding that troll on GiantITP. It's not worth it...
either that, or they just figure that it's not worth the effort to continue the argument :pSeriously JaronK, stop feeding that troll on GiantITP. It's not worth it...
Actually, I think at this point each person who's tried to champion the cause of Kobolds not being true has in turn dropped out, usually admitting that by RAW they are. Then a new one jumps in. It's like whackamole.
JaronK
DRAGONHIDEand the MM specifically references the "special materials" section of the DMG
Armorsmiths can work with the hides of dragons to produce armor or shields of masterwork quality.
Yeah, but given that kobolds are small, and have slight build, you can only get enough hide for extremely tiny armor.that's why you get a whole platoon of them.
We're talking a hat for your familiar small.
You kinda need a collosal dragon for a medium heavy armor, no ?well, to start with, the idea was stated tongue-in-cheek, based out of the silliness of my wandering, unoccupied mind. (I probably should have said so -- sorry)
Go buy Dragonhide armor then cast Resurrection on it. ;):o
Go buy Dragonhide armor, hauntshift yourself into it, then cast Resurrection on it. ;)fixed
:lmao :lolGo buy Dragonhide armor then cast Resurrection on it. ;):o
alright, my players are now banned from coming to this site. (especially the one who likes to take Mother Cyst)
Made a note for my Core only Cleric :P:lmao :lolGo buy Dragonhide armor then cast Resurrection on it. ;):o
alright, my players are now banned from coming to this site. (especially the one who likes to take Mother Cyst)
X5 CHA mod for cromatic heritage and X10 CHA mod for metallic heritage.
You know, people say that Dragonwrought kobolds were not meant to be true dragons saying that they dont fit in the dragon fluff and are not like dragons in general...No. What does categorizing your self to age like a gold dragon have over categorizing your self to age like a true dragon?
Then I realised that Dragonwrought kobolds have their maximum age increased depending on their heritage. X5 CHA mod for cromatic heritage and X10 CHA mod for metallic heritage.
Is this another nail in the "Was not meant to be a true dragon" coffin ?
No. What does categorizing your self to age like a gold dragon have over categorizing your self to age like a true dragon?Force Dragons, Prismatic Dragons, Radiant Dragons, Shadow Dragons, most Lung Dragons...
A nail it like Dracnomicon's page 62 sidebar stating all true dragons are immune to at least one energy type. Look I can say by RAW the trick fails yet again, not that it matters since no one cares.
X5 CHA mod for cromatic heritage and X10 CHA mod for metallic heritage.
But but ... that's just the good looking ones. And some of them might live longer than true dragons, which means they cay-yant be real true dragons.
;)
No. What does categorizing your self to age like a gold dragon have over categorizing your self to age like a true dragon?Force Dragons, Prismatic Dragons, Radiant Dragons, Shadow Dragons, most Lung Dragons...
A nail it like Dracnomicon's page 62 sidebar stating all true dragons are immune to at least one energy type. Look I can say by RAW the trick fails yet again, not that it matters since no one cares.
Sorry, your objection fails because it says numerous true dragons are not true dragons.
I knew the only retort back would be "ignore it as I can find an exception to prove it's not true to all!" and I figured since the RC doesn't list force as an Energy damage type, even though the acid sidebar makes it known why acid is even considered Energy and thus tells the reason force isn't listed, would get used. You may note the capitalization of my use of the word Energy to avoid mistake of grouping positive and negative energy or even the force and light subtypes that deal damage into the same category as Energy as the writers of the draconmicon were not but I not saying I know more than they did of the rules or that they committed a horrendous yet fairly easy to understand why mistake of what Energy is. So instead let me offer a much more manageable compensation towards you guys. If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar. Which would also mean you wouldn't have to deal with the all true dragons have spell resistance & damage reduction as well, isn't that great?No. What does categorizing your self to age like a gold dragon have over categorizing your self to age like a true dragon?Force Dragons, Prismatic Dragons, Radiant Dragons, Shadow Dragons, most Lung Dragons...
A nail it like Dracnomicon's page 62 sidebar stating all true dragons are immune to at least one energy type. Look I can say by RAW the trick fails yet again, not that it matters since no one cares.
Sorry, your objection fails because it says numerous true dragons are not true dragons.
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.:clap QFT.
Dracnomicon's page 62 sidebar stating all true dragons are immune to at least one energy type.
Since I can't confirm this objection, does someone want to 2nd it ??I don't normally dig up things for people, but you've always been helpful so I looked.
That is hilarious.
If we're talking about intent, it's pretty obvious the intent was to have a kobold character able to say "you know guys, I'm technically a true dragon. Nyaaa! Draconic pride! Let's start a racial awareness campaign! True dragon history month!" It's not the designers' fault that there were abilities keyed off truedragonhood.
To make a dragonpact, a sorcerer of 4th level or higher (that is, a character with at least four levels of sorcerer) must undertake a mystical ceremony in which he establishes mental contact with a true dragon (that is, a dragon with twelve age categories, such as a red dragon).
I know this thread is a little old, however I came across a line in Dragon Magic that I thought might be significant to this issue. I know this issue is awfully heated, so I apologize if this was meant to stay dead!The information has also already been taken into account.: Dragon Magic, pg. 87To make a dragonpact, a sorcerer of 4th level or higher (that is, a character with at least four levels of sorcerer) must undertake a mystical ceremony in which he establishes mental contact with a true dragon (that is, a dragon with twelve age categories, such as a red dragon).
Oh. I searched the thread and it didn't look like anyone had mentioned it here. If that is the case, I apologize for repeating it.I know this thread is a little old, however I came across a line in Dragon Magic that I thought might be significant to this issue. I know this issue is awfully heated, so I apologize if this was meant to stay dead!The information has also already been taken into account.: Dragon Magic, pg. 87To make a dragonpact, a sorcerer of 4th level or higher (that is, a character with at least four levels of sorcerer) must undertake a mystical ceremony in which he establishes mental contact with a true dragon (that is, a dragon with twelve age categories, such as a red dragon).
In any case, energy immunity can be obtained by (long list).
The only question is the bit about energy immunity... which still doesn't hold true for a number of known True Dragons.
Perhaps the easiest way is having Mantle of the Icy Soul (the one that wasn't nerfed in SpC) cast on yourself by an NPC.In any case, energy immunity can be obtained by (long list).
The only question is the bit about energy immunity... which still doesn't hold true for a number of known True Dragons.
Draconic Vampirism [General]
You are able to absorb the fleeing life energy from a dying dragon using the energy to temporarily increase your own strength.
Prerequisites: Juvenile or older true dragon, caster level 1st.
Benefits: If you strike the killing blow against a true dragon (a creature of the dragon type that possesses an age category), you can attempt to absorb the dragon’s soul as it departs its body. The spirit of the deceased dragon is allowed to make a Will save (equal to the DC of your breath weapon). If successful, you are unable to absorb the dragon’s spirit. If the saving throw is failed, you absorb the dragon’s essence. The dragon killed must be able to cast spells (typically of adult age or higher) in order to enjoy the full benefits of draconic vampirism. For every age category of the dragon killed, you gain one temporary Hit Die. These temporary Hit Dice increase your abilities just as if you had gained age, increasing your power and your size, although you do not age any. Each week, you lose one temporary Hit Die and decrease in power. Without a skull totem, the loss cannot be halted by any means, and the maximum number of additional temporary Hit Dice you may gain cannot exceed your Charisma bonus.
If the dragon you killed does not cast spells, you instead recover a number of hit points equal to 1d12 times the dragon’s age category. Hit points recovered this way may not increase your hit point total past its normal maximum.
Longer-lived than any other race, dragons can also extend their lifespans by hibernating in near-perfect stasis.
The clan dragons are those most recognizable as dragons; they are also known as “true dragons” to differentiate them from their lesser cousinHowever, that "known as" refers to the in-character terminology. The entire chapter is all flavor with no mechanics;
The clan dragons are those most recognizable as dragons; they are also known as “true dragons” to differentiate them from their lesser cousinHowever, that "known as" refers to the in-character terminology. The entire chapter is all flavor with no mechanics;
Dragons of Krynn
page 15, True Dragon chapter
1. All true dragons are extraordinary beings possessing superior senses, intelligence, and the gift of flight (in the case of the sea, amphi and aquatic dragons, this is replaced by powerful swimming).
2. Some or all of these are absent in dragonkin and lesser dragon types.
3. In addition, dragons gain power and abilities as they age,
Page 15 again
4. Draconic magic is, strictly speaking, ambient in nature. It is not dependent on Chaos, unlike the sorcerers and mystics of the Age of Mortals
Page 155, Book Three Kindred Of The Dragon, 2nd chapter, page 155
5. No dragonwrought kobolds listed.
page 168
6.Draconic Vampirism [General]
You are able to absorb the fleeing life energy from a dying dragon using the energy to temporarily increase your own strength.
Prerequisites: Juvenile or older true dragon, caster level 1st.
Benefits: If you strike the killing blow against a true dragon (a creature of the dragon type that possesses an age category), you can attempt to absorb the dragon’s soul as it departs its body. The spirit of the deceased dragon is allowed to make a Will save (equal to the DC of your breath weapon). If successful, you are unable to absorb the dragon’s spirit. If the saving throw is failed, you absorb the dragon’s essence. The dragon killed must be able to cast spells (typically of adult age or higher) in order to enjoy the full benefits of draconic vampirism. For every age category of the dragon killed, you gain one temporary Hit Die. These temporary Hit Dice increase your abilities just as if you had gained age, increasing your power and your size, although you do not age any. Each week, you lose one temporary Hit Die and decrease in power. Without a skull totem, the loss cannot be halted by any means, and the maximum number of additional temporary Hit Dice you may gain cannot exceed your Charisma bonus.
If the dragon you killed does not cast spells, you instead recover a number of hit points equal to 1d12 times the dragon’s age category. Hit points recovered this way may not increase your hit point total past its normal maximum.
Fang DragonDraconic Vampirism [General]
You are able to absorb the fleeing life energy from a dying dragon using the energy to temporarily increase your own strength.
Prerequisites: Juvenile or older true dragon, caster level 1st.
Benefits: If you strike the killing blow against a true dragon (a creature of the dragon type that possesses an age category), you can attempt to absorb the dragon’s soul as it departs its body. The spirit of the deceased dragon is allowed to make a Will save (equal to the DC of your breath weapon). If successful, you are unable to absorb the dragon’s spirit. If the saving throw is failed, you absorb the dragon’s essence. The dragon killed must be able to cast spells (typically of adult age or higher) in order to enjoy the full benefits of draconic vampirism. For every age category of the dragon killed, you gain one temporary Hit Die. These temporary Hit Dice increase your abilities just as if you had gained age, increasing your power and your size, although you do not age any. Each week, you lose one temporary Hit Die and decrease in power. Without a skull totem, the loss cannot be halted by any means, and the maximum number of additional temporary Hit Dice you may gain cannot exceed your Charisma bonus.
If the dragon you killed does not cast spells, you instead recover a number of hit points equal to 1d12 times the dragon’s age category. Hit points recovered this way may not increase your hit point total past its normal maximum.
Here's the deal -- this whole issue is basically just to try to justify early access to epic feats (i.e., at 1st level), right?No, there's quite a bit more riding on True Dragonhood. Clearly you are an expert on this topic.
That being the case, then this whole thing is being argued from the wrong end; and, thus, is largely irrelevant.
Okay, sure .... let's just go ahead and call dragonwrought kobolds "true dragons" (as I think that argument has already been made, ad nauseum). But that still doesn't mean that you can get early access to epic feats, and here's why:So you claim but the text indicates otherwise. Where does it say it's not an exception?
Sure, there's that paragraph in Draconomicon that says that dragons of a old age can take epic feats, but that is an addition to the rules in ELH, not a replacement.
If you look, you'll see that every single "true" dragon ever printed already has at least 21 HD by time they hit old age.I'll take your word for this, though I wouldn't be surprised to find an exception besides Dragonwrought Kobolds.
Let's break-down that paragraph to see what is really going on:I have to READ the whole sentence? Really? But that would be hard and might make you look foolish.
The first sentence simply restates the original rule from ELH. Before this, there was never anything that said that HD could qualify for epic feats; up to this point, only class/character levels were mentioned.
Next, you have the sentence that has spurred all of this debate; the thing is, you have to read the whole sentence
-- you can't just look at the "Dragons of at least old age also can choose these feats" part and leave it at that. The rest of that sentence, "even if they have no class levels", is a reference back to the first sentence -- this is the first place in 3.5 that establishes that creature HD count for the purposes of epic feats; that is all this does. Interpreting this to mean that a quirky 1st-level character can take epic feats is completely ignores context (not just of the whole paragraph, but the rule-set as a whole)See above for why this is all gibberish.
This was November '03 (very early in the 3.5 cycle)
Fast forward 26 months -- enter Races of the Dragon -- drop one designer and add 4 more, and you have a completely different dynamic. Given that, do you think it might be possible, in all of their dragon/kobold obsession, that they might have forgotten about the specific verbiage of a single paragraph in 300-page book that was put out over 2 years prior? Given the design philosophy, I think that the most probable answer is that they would have thought that injecting a sentence to the effect of "you still can't take epic feats until you have at least 21 HD" would be excessively redundant (if the thought even occurred to them at all -- which it probably didn't).
Yea, you found a silly, quirky, unintentional loophole that involved a 2 different sets of designers and is separated by 2+ years and 10k+ pages of disjointed development -- congratulations. It was funny -- at first. Now it is time to move on to something a little less ridiculous.
Here's the deal -- this whole issue is basically just to try to justify early access to epic feats (i.e., at 1st level), right?
Yea, you found a silly, quirky, unintentional loophole that involved a 2 different sets of designers and is separated by 2+ years and 10k+ pages of disjointed development -- congratulations. It was funny -- at first. Now it is time to move on to something a little less ridiculous.
Let's just point that out again: a true dragon (a creature of the dragon type that possesses an age category). Hey look, a clear definition. No exceptions exist, actually. Unlike all the other ones, this definition actually holds true. I notice you failed to underline it, despite it being the one part of this that actually applies as a mechanical definition.Because it's useless. PHB's Alter Self spell says everyone has age categories and races with the dragon type are still considered lesser races.
a true dragon (a creature of the dragon type that possesses an age category)Also useless for you. If you say newest only applies then you cannot use Dragon Magic's rules. If you don't use newest applies then MMI, MMII, DoF, MoF, and Draconomicon's rules can be used.[/spoiler]
1. Reading Races of the Dragon it's painfully obvious that Dragonwrought Kobolds were intended to be True Dragons... 2. everything about their lore, from their religion to their values indicates that being like proper dragons is their primary goal and the various things they added in (like age categories, and saying that they count as Chromatic or Metallic, and their religion stating they're made from the pure blood of True Dragons) all are set up for that.1. Quote please, I've looked for something that said Kobolds are meant to be a True Dragon rather than a dragon but I can't see past the glaring separation of True Dragons & Kobolds in all RotD's Other Races sections blocking my view.
To be clear, this is just "what do the rules say?" It is not a justification for anything. It is not a discussion of what the designers intended.eh?
<sniped revision>look I don't allow it so it's cool for it to be true.</snip>Newest low I've seen.
boobs
Post #3
[spoiler]The methods JaronK uses to say kobolds are True Dragons are...
1. Specific replaces General
Fang Dragons don't have a breath weapon there for you do not need a breath weapon to be a True Dragon.
Chaos Dragons don't have innate spellcasting there for you do not need innate spellcasting to be a True Dragon.
???
My kobold is a True Dragon!
I'll use the Fang & Improved Disarm for example in a true Lost style explaination. A Fang Dragon's Ability Drain description states "a fang dragon does not have a breath weapon", it is an exception to the general rule that all True Dragon's have a breath weapon and since the Fang is listed as a True Dragon and since it is a more specific entry it takes precedence over True Dragon rules allowing the Fang to be a True Dragon. Now look at Improved Disarm, would you say everyone has +4 to disarm checks?
Missing the linkage I used? Yeah, no one ever gets them. Create a stat block of a character with the Improved Disarm feat. He has a +4 bonus to disarm checks instead of +0, an exception to the rules of combat. Just as a Fang Dragon has a bite attack instead of a breath weapon, an exception fo the rules of True Dragons. Trying to say Bob doesn't need a breath weapon to be a True Dragon is like saying Tim don't need Improved Disarm for the same +4 bonus to disarm checks. Apply train of thought to how monsters aqcuire spells without class levels if you desire.
Fang Dragons are an exception to requiring a Breath Weapon to be a True Dragon, however unless you are a Fang Dragon you don't get it's rules. Not only am I speaking from a several thousand example generated view but it just so happens the DMG/RC has a rule on this.
Rules Compendium, Page 5, Order of Rules Application
The D&D game assumes a specific order of rules application: General to specific to exception. A general rule is a basic guideline, but a more specific rule takes precedence when applied to the same activity. For instance, a monster description is more specific than any general rule about monsters, so the description takes precedence. An exception is a particular kind of specific rule that contradicts or breaks another rule (general or specific). The Improved Disarm feat, for instance, provides an exception to the rule that an attacker provokes an attack of opportunity from the defender he’s trying to disarm (see Disarm, page 45).
A Fang Dragon can be a True Dragon simply by saying it is, thats just how it is. At no point does a kobold get the same exception.
*
[/spoiler]
True Dragon questions (that has nothing to do with kobolds!)Favorable Sacrifice could have some wacky interaction depending on how you read it. It gives out benefits depending on how expensive your material component was. Depending on your interpretation, it might either not work at all or give you the most expensive version (normally 10k a pop) for free.
[spoiler]
The True Dragon innate spellcasting trait allows many to cast cleric spells as divine spells and material free casting. Got any good examples of abuse for this? Apocalypse From The Sky withstanding of course. The Resurrection chain looks very promising. Also my PDF of Dragon Magazine is corrupted or something. The Tome Dragon's Precognition ability isn't detailed. Could someone PM the information if you have it please?
[/spoiler]
Let's just point that out again: a true dragon (a creature of the dragon type that possesses an age category). Hey look, a clear definition. No exceptions exist, actually. Unlike all the other ones, this definition actually holds true. I notice you failed to underline it, despite it being the one part of this that actually applies as a mechanical definition.Because it's useless. PHB's Alter Self spell says everyone has age categories and races with the dragon type are still considered lesser races.
a true dragon (a creature of the dragon type that possesses an age category)Also useless for you. If you say newest only applies then you cannot use Dragon Magic's rules. If you don't use newest applies then MMI, MMII, DoF, MoF, and Draconomicon's rules can be used.
1. Reading Races of the Dragon it's painfully obvious that Dragonwrought Kobolds were intended to be True Dragons... 2. everything about their lore, from their religion to their values indicates that being like proper dragons is their primary goal and the various things they added in (like age categories, and saying that they count as Chromatic or Metallic, and their religion stating they're made from the pure blood of True Dragons) all are set up for that.1. Quote please, I've looked for something that said Kobolds are meant to be a True Dragon rather than a dragon but I can't see past the glaring separation of True Dragons & Kobolds in all RotD's Other Races sections blocking my view.
2. Oh their desire to be a dragon or page 41's "The two races are related"? Yeah, theres a lot of that in the flavor.
Speaking of wants and flavor I want some true dragon innate spellcasting abilities with my half-dragon (direct parentage>ancestry) warblade and unobtainium flavored ice cream in my hand. Guess that means I have it.
To be clear, this is just "what do the rules say?" It is not a justification for anything. It is not a discussion of what the designers intended.eh?
This coming for the guy who inserts his meaning into a word as a method of proving kobolds are a True Dragon. Well right there you have it, this is not a discussion of what JaronK intends things to mean.
<sniped revision>look I don't allow it so it's cool for it to be true.</snip>Newest low I've seen.
The methods JaronK uses to say kobolds are True Dragons are...
1. Specific replaces General
Fang Dragons don't have a breath weapon there for you do not need a breath weapon to be a True Dragon.
Chaos Dragons don't have innate spellcasting there for you do not need innate spellcasting to be a True Dragon.
???
My kobold is a True Dragon!
Rules Compendium, Page 5, Order of Rules Application
The D&D game assumes a specific order of rules application: General to specific to exception. A general rule is a basic guideline, but a more specific rule takes precedence when applied to the same activity. For instance, a monster description is more specific than any general rule about monsters, so the description takes precedence. An exception is a particular kind of specific rule that contradicts or breaks another rule (general or specific). The Improved Disarm feat, for instance, provides an exception to the rule that an attacker provokes an attack of opportunity from the defender he’s trying to disarm (see Disarm, page 45).
2. Ignoring the above, specific does replace general
durr, dur, durpa durrrr. HHHUUUUURRRRR! *drools*
Aka in the next post JaronK posts no less than 0 words to refute that but instead 450 words about how he makes exceptions to what he uses. So following his method...
His method, find an exception to ignore it, isn't enough to work either.
Every True Dragon listed as such gains Dragon HD Size Increases as a direct result of aging.
At the young adult age (or older) they all gain Damage Reduction, Frightful Presence, and Spell Resistance.. Finally they all also have the Keen Senses & Blindsense abilities. All of them have those abilties, even the Yu since all Yu dragons inherit one the other Lung Dragon stat blocks. I suppose a Kobold could obtain all those traits given all the feats, classes, and spells out there. But by that the cost is beyond the gain and JaronK refuses to follow up on this route since he is set on trying to make Loredrake obtainable at level 1.
3. Newest Only
Draconomicon, Dragons Of Faerun, Magic of Incarnum, Monsters of Faerun, Monster Manual I, Monster Manual II, Sandstorm, & Shining South rules are older than Dragon Magic. They don't count, ignored.
Actully, Dragons of Krynn was the last 3rd/3.5 edition book printed to say what a dragon is (that I've found). It restablishes many but not all of the rules from the books before it. For example, True Dragon innate casting, which is material component free reguardless of gp cost putting it far beyond the abilities of Eschew Materials. Breath weapons and flight make a comeback as requirements as well and so on.
4. Flavor
Dragonwrought is a state brought on my True Dragon ansetory, it's so pure I am a True Dragon. P.S. Kobold flavor says they wish to be a dragon so ha.
Half-Dragon is a state brought on by ten levels in a worthless PrC or having direct linage to a True Dragon (ie one parent was one). Half-Dragon's are not pure enough to be a True Dragon nor is your mutt whos twice removed great great grandfather was a True Dragon. There is zero text supporting the generic haritage of True Dragons is capable of skipping generations and plently suggesting it don't.
Speaking of wants and flavor I want some true dragon innate spellcasting abilities with my half-dragon (direct parentage>ancestry) warblade and unobtainium flavored ice cream in my hand. ... Hmm, for some reason that didn't work.
5. I say so.
As you know, words are a way of expressing meaning. It isn't the words them selves that have any real bearing, it's the intent. It's also subject to personal interpretation so of course JaronK immediately leap on that like a fly on pie.
Take for example "In addition, dragons gain power and abilities as they age" To me I see they must gain new abilities not simply increase exsisting ones. Kobolds are out.
6. With my rules combined, I am True Dragon kobold! Go Kobold, hes a hero...
This is truly the most annoying habit of JaronK.
All he posts are blocks of of the repeated text against any post against him. He doesn't address anything really. Take any post he has made in here in response to another. He only refutes half of it and bounces inbetween methods using huge chunks of text as a way to distract you. Take an example from the last one of my posts, I speak of how True Dragons have innate casting and he fails to refute it by saying True Dragons can and have taken sorcerer levels. I'm torn over it, am I suppose to believe he is that stupid or just trolling?
Where, specifically, are the kobolds getting 12 age categories from? Include page numbers please. I'm starting to notice proof that an awakened dog rogue is a true dragon, and I'd certainly like some evidence to shut it down.I'm AFB right now, so I can't give you a page number. All I can say is it's in the Kobold section of Races of the Dragon.
Table 3–3: Aging Effects
Race Middle Age Old Venerable Maximum Age
Kobold 60 years 90 years 120 years +Cha years1
1 Dragonwrought kobolds with chromatic dragon ancestry
multiply this number by 5. Dragonwrought kobolds with
metallic dragon ancestry multiply this number by 10.
Ability penalties due to age do not apply to dragonwrought
kobolds. See the Dragonwrought feat, page 100.
Well that's interesting, and also somewhat disturbing. It seems an awakened dog Rogue 10 can use the rogue bonus feat for which it need not meet the prerequisites to grab Dragonwrought. According to the feat, this awakened dog is of the Dragon type and is a kobold.
Well that's interesting, and also somewhat disturbing. It seems an awakened dog Rogue 10 can use the rogue bonus feat for which it need not meet the prerequisites to grab Dragonwrought. According to the feat, this awakened dog is of the Dragon type and is a kobold.
No, it can't. Bonus feats from class levels do require prerequisites (see the beginning of the feats section, PHB). I know there's some people that argue otherwise, but they're taking out of context quotes from the Monster Manual. In context, those quotes are clearly talking about racial bonus feats, since it's talking about creating new creatures. The entry in the PHB is VERY clear that prerequisites are required, and the dog does not meet the prerequisites for Dragonwrought.
That's table 3-3. Not table 3-2.Table 3–3: Aging Effects
Race Middle Age Old Venerable Maximum Age
Kobold 60 years 90 years 120 years +Cha years1
1 Dragonwrought kobolds with chromatic dragon ancestry
multiply this number by 5. Dragonwrought kobolds with
metallic dragon ancestry multiply this number by 10.
Ability penalties due to age do not apply to dragonwrought
kobolds. See the Dragonwrought feat, page 100.
where are the other 12 Age categories? , these seem to be the same age categories for regular Races .... i thought True Dragons advanced by Age categories as per MM:
Dragon Age Categories
Category Age (Years)
1 Wyrmling 0–5
2 Very young 6–15
3 Young 16–25
4 Juvenile 26–50
5 Young adult 51–100
6 Adult 101–200
7 Mature adult 201–400
8 Old 401–600
9 Very old 601–800
10 Ancient 801–1,000
11 Wyrm 1,001–1,200
12 Great wyrm 1,201 or more
how is this different for Dragonwrought Kobolds? what is the Age category for a Wyrmling Dragonwrought Kobold? ... what is thier HD when they are Old?
i dont see the reasoning behind it ..... the Feat Dragonwrought does indeed make them Dragons ... but not True Dragons... maybe Lesser Dragons but not True
:D
Holy crap I don't even know which side people are arguing for anymore.
Holy crap I don't even know which side people are arguing for anymore.I'm more or less on the "if kobolds are true dragons
This from the guy that grabs an out of context line that says Old or older true dragons can take epic feats, takes it to mean kobolds can take epic feats early because they're true dragons, and then uses the alleged ability to take epic feats early to support them being true dragons. I'm all for bootstrapping where applicable, but that's just circular reasoning.
Hello, Mr. Kettle? This is Mr. Pot. You're black, dude.
I'm more or less on the "if kobolds are true dragonsifwhen they work at it, everything is a true dragonifwhen it works at it" side.
If didn't look like a word anymore.
I'm more or less on the "if kobolds are true dragonsifwhen they work at it, everything is a true dragonifwhen it works at it" side.
If didn't look like a word anymore.
That's great and all, but you're not actually saying they're not True. You're just saying to don't like the implications if they are. And yeah, there's absolutely ways for everyone else to do it, mostly via Polymorph style effects.
But the dog example doesn't work because you need prerequisites to get class bonus feats.
JaronK
That's not so much a problem with Dragonwrought as it is a problem with the wording on the Rogue's bonus feats feature.Holy crap I don't even know which side people are arguing for anymore.I'm more or less on the "if kobolds are true dragonsifwhen they work at it, everything is a true dragonifwhen it works at it" side.
If didn't look like a word anymore.
That's not so much a problem with Dragonwrought as it is a problem with the wording on the Rogue's bonus feats feature.
I think it's also a problem of giving true dragons powers and trying to define them as a group when there are so many different kinds. How much of this mess could be avoided if every dragon had a True flag that was either on or off, and couldn't be changed by magic, feat, or anything else short of a total and permanent race change, I wonder.
I'm saying by your definition and reasoning, they're true, but so is anything else that cares to be, which makes your definition bullplop for just lumping kobolds in with true dragons. And no, you really don't need prerequisites to get class bonus feats unless the class specifically says you do.
You could say only racial bonus feats (with the exception of those that explicitly require prerequisites) ignoring prerequisites is the intention, and I'd agree with you, but the rules don't say that. You made that up. Sort of like you got after SorO_Lost for doing.
And it would certainly be nice if all True Dragons just had that as a subtype, so they were listed as Dragon (True) just like you can have Outsider (Native).I was actually thinking it should be handled like this myself, at first, but subtype changing is (relatively) easy to come by.
Well that's interesting, and also somewhat disturbing. It seems an awakened dog Rogue 10 can use the rogue bonus feat for which it need not meet the prerequisites to grab Dragonwrought. According to the feat, this awakened dog is of the Dragon type and is a kobold.But if the dog took the Dragonwrought feat wouldn't he longer be a dog, but would instead be a dragonwrought kobold, losing all his dog racials and shifting form to a kobold?
I've never said newest only applies.I tackled every separate method you use.
The main thing here is that we have two spots where it's critical for mechanical rules purposes that True Dragon be defined, because we have a mechanical ability that only works with True Dragons.And what about Draconic Vampirism(DoK) a feat for True Dragons killing True Dragons? What about Advancing Dragons(Draco) where true dragons gain HD as a result of aging? Or magic, or size, etc.
Dragonwrought Kobolds being Chromatic or Metallic is on page 39 ("Dragonwrought kobolds with chromatic dragon ancestry multiply this number by 5. Dragonwrought kobolds with metallic dragon ancestry multiply this number by 10."). <snip> Sorry, but Half Dragons aren't True Dragons.Why not you branch into obtaining a feat to gain a level of spellcasting in a class but don't go into why a Half-Dragon can't. What about a Half-Dragon Rakasha, they also have virtual levels of sorcerer spellcasting just like kobolds, and their linage if a thousand times more pure.
New low from you here. I don't even know what you're referencing here, you're just making personal attacks. This is usually the last refuge of someone who no longer has an argument but just wants to win.It's not winning I want. My personally attacks are really just a lack of being subtle, which isn't something I do anyway, and are a response from yours. You disguise it as your arguments are stupid, stop posting and read the books, your trying to hard it's embarrassing, you ignore rules but I better because I claim to read them all, and finally trolling for smooches. Yeah I really don't use innuendos with the lack of tones and body language being able to be used nor do I hide behind them.
1. Actually, I never mentioned Fang dragons, that was someone else. I didn't even see Chaos Dragons getting mentioned directly. 2. The main thing here is that there are a few given straight forward definitions (Dragons of Krynn, Dragon Magic, Draconomicon side bar). Then there's a bunch of random descriptions throughout the books. The definitions actually match up to all True Dragons. The descriptions do not. 3. Your argument of "Kobolds do not match up to some of the True Dragon descriptions, therefor they are not True Dragons" fails because that same argument would eliminate virtually all actual True Dragons." When your logical train leads to a false conclusion, it must be false. But my logic, that True Dragons are all creatures who follow the definition of True Dragons, actually works. All listed True Dragons meet the given definitions of True Dragons. Kobolds also fit this. That's the ??? you seem to have missed.Finally something worth reading.
Here's where you and I differ. I'm not calling rules "useless" when they're clear. :)Rules Compendium, Page 5, Order of Rules Application
The D&D game assumes a specific order of rules application: General to specific to exception. A general rule is a basic guideline, but a more specific rule takes precedence when applied to the same activity. For instance, a monster description is more specific than any general rule about monsters, so the description takes precedence. An exception is a particular kind of specific rule that contradicts or breaks another rule (general or specific). The Improved Disarm feat, for instance, provides an exception to the rule that an attacker provokes an attack of opportunity from the defender he’s trying to disarm (see Disarm, page 45).
All of this is irrelevant,
You're still missing the main point, which is that there are definitions of True Dragons (Draconomicon side bar, Dragons of Kyrnn feat, Dragon Magic Dragonpact section) and there are descriptions of True Dragons (MM1, Dragons of Kyrnn in another section, etc). The former straight up says "this is what a True Dragon is" and that actually does apply to all True Dragons. The latter says "this is what some people know about True Dragons" or "True Dragons are generally like X" and does not match up to all True Dragons... usually in fact they don't match up to even the majority.Descriptions are the definitions. At least you cleared up what you meant before though.
Your current claim is that True Dragons essentially are just anything on a list that says they're True Dragons, since you would, by your ruling, eliminate Fang Dragons and Lung Dragons and Chaos Dragons and Planar Dragons and Gem DragonsProof of ignoring. Monster descriptions > general type descriptions. See all my posts because I can remain consistent.
Neither is a rule saying Kobolds are True Dragons. Guess you can't keep following up on that route huh.His method, find an exception to ignore it, isn't enough to work either.No, it's to show the problem with using descriptions instead of definitions, by showing that doing so leads to a false conclusion (that a known True Dragon is Lesser). The definitions never have this problem.Every True Dragon listed as such gains Dragon HD Size Increases as a direct result of aging.But this is never given as a rule anywhere.
Nah, I had that one long before you made up yours, yours is the new one to me.Take for example "In addition, dragons gain power and abilities as they age" To me I see they must gain new abilities not simply increase exsisting ones. Kobolds are out.See? You just made up a new definition.
Evidently the ability to take Epic feats early isn't an ability.No more than being alive is. Follow up on it if you want, it's a dead end. Either you're wanting to define the word ability there and word arguments never bold well or you can lose to the D&D terms which define the ability scores & special abilities which in turn lists ex, su, sp and the like with no concern about qualifying for feats.
Sor0, give me a full list of what you believe to be the necessary criteria for a true dragon with text citations.Mine? In which way, thanks to the cop out for authors simply publishing something saying it is a true dragon works.
Somewhere in you post you complain and ran some tandom on me saying useless towards something about simply having age categories. Everyone has age categories and everyone isn't a true dragon. Inserting DM's comment? See below.
I've never said newest only applies.I tackled every separate method you use.
When someone refutes your plugged in intent you say dragon magic (newest).
When someone refutes newest you use I'm innocent, ignore, strawmans, spoke of flavor, insulted and finally start talking about exceptions.
When someone points out exceptions don't work you insert intent.
And loop till people get tired.
And what about Draconic Vampirism(DoK) a feat for True Dragons killing True Dragons?
What about Advancing Dragons(Draco) where true dragons gain HD as a result of aging? Or magic, or size, etc.
Dragonwrought Kobolds being Chromatic or Metallic is on page 39 ("Dragonwrought kobolds with chromatic dragon ancestry multiply this number by 5. Dragonwrought kobolds with metallic dragon ancestry multiply this number by 10."). <snip> Sorry, but Half Dragons aren't True Dragons.Why not you branch into obtaining a feat to gain a level of spellcasting in a class but don't go into why a Half-Dragon can't. What about a Half-Dragon Rakasha, they also have virtual levels of sorcerer spellcasting just like kobolds, and their linage if a thousand times more pure.
Beating you to the punch about your response which will be about dragon magic. Well then drop the flavor argument and stop reciting it.
One two skip a few...
It's not winning I want. My personally attacks are really just a lack of being subtle, which isn't something I do anyway, and are a response from yours.
You disguise it as your arguments are stupid,
stop posting and read the books,
your trying to hard it's embarrassing, you ignore rules but I better because I claim to read them all, and finally trolling for smooches. Yeah I really don't use innuendos with the lack of tones and body language being able to be used nor do I hide behind them.
Finally something worth reading.
1. Who cares who mentioned what dragon? It is following your concept, stay on topic.
2. What what? Every True Dragon matches up to the True Dragon definitions but every True Dragon doesn't match up to True Dragon descriptions.
See what I mean? You run off on tangent lines like that that serve no real purpose but you claim it matters. Why don't you try explaining things like that instead of trying to come up with some contradictory thing others are supposed to get and spend less time swapping about methods to make claims.
3. Another subtle put down to me. You jump right into using exceptions and further claim I am using them.
No I'm don't, please read the post and stop trying to hard, also insults are a sign of being on your last straw.
Anyway, I don't use exceptions to prove anything, like wise see Method #2 where it highlights that the exception method doesn't clear enough for kobolds anyway.
Here's where you and I differ. I'm not calling rules "useless" when they're clear. :)
Descriptions are the definitions. At least you cleared up what you meant before though.
Where are Spellcasting rule for each class defined? In the spellcasting descriptions.
Where is kobolds gaining a level of sorcerer spellcasting defined? In Greater Draconic Rite's description.
Where is bullrush defined? In it's description.
Where is raging defined? In it's description.
Where is creating a dragonpact defined? In it's description.
Where is True Dragon defined? Where JaronK says it is, or so he says.
Worded like that it comes off like a good point, but not one I'd use outside of pointing the absurdity of what JaronK is trying to tell me.
Draconomicon says what a dragon is and provides the highest degree of description short of the monsters them selves making it according to the DMG/RC the priority. Dragon Magic's comment does augment that but does not replace it. And while I won't argue it, rules for who you can create a dragon pact are way outside the same activity of act of defining what a true dragon is.
Your current claim is that True Dragons essentially are just anything on a list that says they're True Dragons, since you would, by your ruling, eliminate Fang Dragons and Lung Dragons and Chaos Dragons and Planar Dragons and Gem DragonsProof of ignoring. Monster descriptions > general type descriptions. See all my posts because I can remain consistent.
Neither is a rule saying Kobolds are True Dragons. Guess you can't keep following up on that route huh.His method, find an exception to ignore it, isn't enough to work either.No, it's to show the problem with using descriptions instead of definitions, by showing that doing so leads to a false conclusion (that a known True Dragon is Lesser). The definitions never have this problem.Every True Dragon listed as such gains Dragon HD Size Increases as a direct result of aging.But this is never given as a rule anywhere.
Three four skip some more.
Nah, I had that one long before you made up yours, yours is the new one to me.Take for example "In addition, dragons gain power and abilities as they age" To me I see they must gain new abilities not simply increase exsisting ones. Kobolds are out.See? You just made up a new definition.
Also I see you edited my quote without any notation of doing so. Perfect example of that method in action.
Evidently the ability to take Epic feats early isn't an ability.No more than being alive is. Follow up on it if you want, it's a dead end. Either you're wanting to define the word ability there and word arguments never bold well or you can lose to the D&D terms which define the ability scores & special abilities which in turn lists ex, su, sp and the like with no concern about qualifying for feats.
Gaining a level of sorcerer spellcasting != innate spellcasting. Being granted a level of sorcerer spellcasting as if you have taken a level in sorcerer is much like PrC spellcasting advancement.
Ok it's the same exact thing but still there is a difference in it being a feat instead of class level.
i dont know why i missed the table 3.2, or the section before it ... i retract my previous position .... Dragonwrought Kobolds are indeed True Dragons(really weak Dragons... but still true Dragons) they simply dont gain as much as other True Dragons do from age ....(http://www.theofficialsoulpatrol.com/forum/Smileys/Lots_O_Smileys/cheerleader.gif)
:D
At least the last post clarified the problem here... some folks don't know the difference between descriptions and definitions.
A definition is a form of description that must describe all members of the set, and not members not of the set. For example, the definition of an even number is one divisible by 2 such that the result will be an integer. All even numbers match that definition. No odd numbers match that exception. If there was a single number that was even but not divisible by 2, it would not be a definition.
This is why exceptions that SorO keeps ignoring are important... a single exception to the rule means it's not a definition.
Descriptions aren't so strict. "Human beings have five fingers on each hand and four limbs" is a valid description of human beings. But it's not a definition... it describes things that aren't human (like gorillas) and there are some humans that don't fit it (polydactyls, amputees). Something that describes other things outside the set could be part of a definition, but could not by itself be one. Something that fails to describe even one member of the set is not a definition.
Note however that D&D has a specific rule that is worth noting here: the specific overrides the general. As such, all D&D definitions have a built in extra clause "unless the entry says otherwise." You could have a definition for humanoids that would be perfectly valid, and then have purple worms not match that definition but specifically say they're humanoid, and that would be fine.
In short: If you have properties X, Y, and Z, then you are A is a definition. A's generally have X is a description.
This is why "True Dragons are Chromatic or Metallic" isn't a definition, but rather a description. Gem Dragons aren't, therefor it can't be a definition. "True Dragons have innate spellcasting" isn't a definition either... many things have innate spellcasting that aren't even dragons, and some True Dragons don't have innate spellcasting. But "True Dragons are creatures of the Dragon Type that have 12 age categories" is a definition. It's true for all True Dragons, and false for all Lesser Dragons (as well as all non dragons). "True Dragons are creatures of the Dragon type that have age categories" is only good when we understand the type of age categories they mean (the 12 draconic ones) because technically disguise and alter self refer to the standard PC ages as being "age categories" despite the fact that the ages section doesn't refer to them as such. That's sloppy writing, since it leads to all kinds of problems (mostly because of what happens with the Draconomicon definition if you read it that way... but even then, you still end up with Kobolds as True. You just also lump in every other draconic PC The Draconomicon definition also works nicely.
It's also important to note what Draconomicon says about Lesser Dragons, namely it defines lesser dragons as being creatures of the Dragon type that lack age categories. You CANNOT be lesser if you have age categories. That reinforces the idea that age categories are alone what is important, as anything else leads to a logical contradiction
This is why SorO's definition cannot be true... it leads to a logical contradiction to have anything more than age categories. The only definition of True Dragon that doesn't lead to contradictions is "A True Dragon is a creature of the Dragon type that has 12 age categories." This uses all listed definitions, located in Draconomicon, Dragon Magic, and Dragons of Kyrnn. It does NOT use descriptions, as those are not the same as definitions. SorO's description (not definition) is generally true, as true as my description of humans as four limbed creatures with five fingers per hand. Unfortunately, no rule actually states what he said. No rule says you have to gain racial HD or size as you get older to be a True Dragon. While I can quote the page that says dragons need 12 age categories to be True, he can't quote a page that says the same about gaining size or HD.
JaronK