Brilliant Gameologists Forum

The Thinktank => Min/Max It! => : Havok4 December 15, 2009, 01:53:33 AM

: The Most Adaptable Party
: Havok4 December 15, 2009, 01:53:33 AM
One thing about many adventuring parties is that everyone in it is usually stuck in certain defined roles for the entire existence of the characters. This also means that if a party is lacking someone who specializes or is at least competent in a certain area the party will be severely crippled in that area and then often it would be one person doing all the work. So an interesting exercise I thought we could attempt would be to try and create a party where anyone can become competent in many different areas (given some preparation time).High level prepared casters can often solve any problem with the right spells but the challenge here is to not make the character reliant on spell casting to be versatile. The parties should be about 3-4 characters and should be able to fulfill a variety of roles both in and out of combat effectively. Try to list the functions each character can effectively fill and try to find situations where these characters would be unable to function and how this could be fixed.

Example
Factotum/ Chameleon  (skill use,trapfinding, melee combat, ranged combat, healing, battlefield control, buffing, debuffing, blasting, scouting, stealth, social, and item creation)
Binder  (as above but without trapfinding)
Warblade/ Warshaper/ Shapeshifter/Master of Many Forms (really good combat versitility, scouting, long distance travel, disguise based social, most of the mundane applications of monsters, warblade combat abilities)
: Re: The Most Adaptable Party
: DavidWL December 15, 2009, 06:04:29 AM
Sharn: Sharn +5/Aberration 4/Mystic Theurge 10/XXX 1
- initiate of mystra, spell like casting, sharn awesomness

Chameleon Caster:  Generic Fighter 2/Generic Divine Caster 3/Chameleon 10/Generic Expert 2/Generic Arcane Caster 1/Generic Divine Caster 4-5
- initiate of mystra, uses extra spell / sanctum spell/ planar touchstone to gain 9th level spell slots

Bard 3/Incarnate 2/Soulcaster 4/Ur-Priest 1/Sublime Chord 1/Fochlucan Lyrist 9

Note, however, that you are not really asking for a party, but rather, a collection of multi-threats.  Each of the above is both divine and arcane caster, along with either combat or skillmonkey.

For a less caster-centric version, see the ranger build in my sig.

Best,
David
: Re: The Most Adaptable Party
: Negative Zero December 15, 2009, 06:09:17 AM
I'm not all that familiar with Incarnum, but the Incarnum-using classes can change out their soulmelds daily, and change their essentia distributions as a swift action. Is there enough variety in the Soulmelds for that to be versatile, or are they still generally stuck with what they do?

Also, with transparency, can't you Chain Psychic Reformation? That's a good start to switching the party focus real quick-like.
: Re: The Most Adaptable Party
: JaronK December 15, 2009, 06:41:10 AM
Would it be cheating to use an Artificer?  They can make items to do anything after all.

JaronK
: Re: The Most Adaptable Party
: Dictum Mortuum December 15, 2009, 07:37:07 AM
Where are the stats for sharns ?
: Re: The Most Adaptable Party
: snakeman830 December 15, 2009, 12:46:40 PM
I would think Incarnate or Totemist would be in such a team, as would Druid (because they have spells to cover numerous occasions + Wild Shape and cnimal companion to cover even more).  Factotum and Binder are kind of the "Duh" bits, and someone in the group would have to do Chameleon.
: Re: The Most Adaptable Party
: archangel.arcanis December 15, 2009, 12:57:27 PM
Would Thrallherd be cheating too since he will have 2 competent thralls and a ton of minions believers. 3 Thrallherds turns into a party of 9 with an entourage to rival that of a rapper.
: Re: The Most Adaptable Party
: RobbyPants December 15, 2009, 01:52:50 PM
I've always been fond of:

Druid
Cleric or Archivist
Beguiler
Conjurer


None of these gets pinned down into any one role.  All are full casters.  The group can adapt pretty well in any given combat, and remarkably well given a day's notice.
: Re: The Most Adaptable Party
: Vinom December 15, 2009, 03:50:44 PM
Bard
Sorcerer
Paladin
Fighter
: Re: The Most Adaptable Party
: Operation Shoestring December 15, 2009, 08:21:19 PM
Druid, Druid, Druid, Artificer.    ;)
: Re: The Most Adaptable Party
: ninjarabbit December 15, 2009, 08:49:51 PM
4 barbarians

The solution to every problem is to smash
: Re: The Most Adaptable Party
: DavidWL December 15, 2009, 08:57:21 PM
High level prepared casters can often solve any problem with the right spells but the challenge here is to not make the character reliant on spell casting to be versatile.

You could, very legitimately, almost say that by definition a non-caster can't be competent in comparison to a caster.

What we then do is look at caster alternatives


Best,
David
: Re: The Most Adaptable Party
: Aliment December 15, 2009, 10:11:48 PM
4 barbarians

The solution to every problem is to smash
And there all Orcs.

Seriously I think for Trap finding: Beguiler/Factotum
For Tanking: Conjueror/Druid
For Buffs and Healing: Cleric/Druid
For Damage: Barbarian/Warblade/Duskblade

The "face" is most likely going to the Beguiler or Factotum. So my Ideal party:
Changeling Rogue 1/Beguiler/ShadowCraft Mage (getting in by changing into Gnome, and using feat)
Conjueror/Malconvoker
Druid 20 'nuff said
??? Not much charger expierience
: Re: The Most Adaptable Party
: Havok4 December 15, 2009, 10:20:00 PM
High level prepared casters can often solve any problem with the right spells but the challenge here is to not make the character reliant on spell casting to be versatile.

You could, very legitimately, almost say that by definition a non-caster can't be competent in comparison to a caster.

What we then do is look at caster alternatives
  • Artificer (crafter)
  • Binder (binds for summons)
  • arcane casting Wildshape (dragonshape) ranger
  • etc.


Best,
David
You have a legitimate point there and in many ways what you say is correct. I requested that primarily to avoid this kind of setup.
Druid, Druid, Druid, Artificer.    ;)

Which is a perfectly good party which is capable of dealing with any problem that it encounters but it is something that everyone here already knows.
: Re: The Most Adaptable Party
: ninjarabbit December 15, 2009, 10:44:47 PM
My serious party is:

kobold cloistered cleric with kobold and trickery domains
gnome druid
grey elf spellthief1/beguiler1/focusedconjurer1/ultimatemagus10/x5
elf cloistered cleric/contemplative archer with elf, trickery, spell, and time domains
: Re: The Most Adaptable Party
: The_Mad_Linguist December 15, 2009, 10:48:23 PM
Where are the stats for sharns ?

Anarouch - the empire of shade.


My pick for most adaptable?
Factotum
Warlock
DFA
Spellthief.
Give one of them a mark of healing so the spellthief can do that job, the factotum+spellthief gets unlimited castings of any sorc/wiz spell up to seventh level, and if you get lesser restoration form the dragonmark you don't need to rest ever.
: Re: The Most Adaptable Party
: Vinom December 15, 2009, 11:06:03 PM
Cleric
Cleric
Cleric
Cleric

because the right spell is one god away.
: Re: The Most Adaptable Party
: bearsarebrown December 15, 2009, 11:08:31 PM
My pick for most adaptable?
Factotum
Warlock
DFA
Spellthief.

Factotum and Spellthief combined is genius.
: Re: The Most Adaptable Party
: InnaBinder December 16, 2009, 12:33:30 AM
Factotum
DFA
Totemist
Binder

Replace DFA with Archivist for more power; replace Factotum with Artificer if there's plenty of downtime anticipated (and for more power).
: Re: The Most Adaptable Party
: Bloody Initiate December 16, 2009, 12:44:37 AM
Cleric
Cleric
Cleric
Cleric

because the right spell is one god away.

It's only because I've recently been reading through Elder Evils, but lately I like to make sure everyone isn't just one thing (In the case of Elder Evils, I like to make sure not everyone is a divine caster).

Also, while it may seem perfect, a party of all the same casting class isn't flexible. It doesn't matter that you can change your mechanics every day if people can make you ALL null and void with one or two easy tricks. Casters suffer from being incredibly reliant on magic, and while there are lots of ways around the ways around casters, if someone shuts your whole party down for just one round you're going to lose someone. This is especially true when you consider that casters are high-powered and draw high-powered opponents.
: Re: The Most Adaptable Party
: JaronK December 16, 2009, 12:53:10 AM
Note that the OP asked that this be done without powerful spellcasting, so using Cleric here is basically cheating.

Of course, Factotums cast spells too, but that's not all they do.

JaronK
: Re: The Most Adaptable Party
: Gnorman December 16, 2009, 12:56:24 AM
I've always been fond of:

Druid
Cleric or Archivist
Beguiler
Conjurer


None of these gets pinned down into any one role.  All are full casters.  The group can adapt pretty well in any given combat, and remarkably well given a day's notice.

Seconded. You don't need a meatshield because A.) you have a druid and B.) your conjurer can create his own meatshields. Trapfinding and face-duty is taken care of by the beguiler. You have enough skill points (and varying class skills) between the four of you to do pretty much whatever the hell you want. The Druid handles survival and nature-based skills. The Conjurer does all the knowledge-monkeying. The Cleric does whatever his domains encourage him to do, or becomes another knowledge-monkey if he's an Archivist (you can never have too many knowledge monkeys). The Beguiler does everything else.

SR should pose no problem, since the Conjurer's packing a metric crapton of SR: No spells. Three outta four are capable summoners - the cleric should concentrate on building up an army of walking dead, the druid brings in a pissed-off animal platoon, while the Conjurer bends planar denizens to his will.

Of course, if you want me to answer the ACTUAL question, it comes down to:

Factotum (most flexible base class in the game)
Binder (second-most flexible)
Bard (hey, jacks-of-all-trades are known for their adaptability)
Artificer (arguably not dependent on high-level spellcasting).

They all have tons of skills, at least two have permanent trapfinding (while another can get it). Each one has some spellcasting (nothing that really breaks the game, though, except for possibly the Artificer) and decent combat ability (all having at least medium progression). You could easily replace any of them with a Beguiler, since they're not exactly a tier 1 caster to begin with and are incredibly versatile as well, but they do rely on their spells and so I did not include them in the primary list.
: Re: The Most Adaptable Party
: dark_samuari December 16, 2009, 01:23:23 AM
4 barbarians

The solution to every problem is to smash

I like it!

1 Champion of Gwynharwyf
1 Rage Mage
1 Frenzied Beserker
1 Barbarian/Savage Bard/War Chanter
: Re: The Most Adaptable Party
: RobbyPants December 16, 2009, 10:58:56 AM
Note that the OP asked that this be done without powerful spellcasting, so using Cleric here is basically cheating.
I totally missed that line.  I guess that invalidates my party.
: Re: The Most Adaptable Party
: Operation Shoestring December 16, 2009, 04:57:30 PM
no high power casters?

Hmn...

Incarnate
Binder
Factotum
Bard
: Re: The Most Adaptable Party
: Endarire December 16, 2009, 07:12:48 PM
Clerics are spiffy, but their spells are meant to heal/buff the party/rebuked undead, letting Clerics be single-classed gishes.

A Wizard with the proper spell preps can either end battles or trivialize them sooner than the Cleric, though he lacks DMM.
: Re: The Most Adaptable Party
: KellKheraptis December 16, 2009, 07:38:36 PM
Hmm...how about :

Factotum : Absolutely anything with proper abuse of their capstone

Totemist : Melee, scout, ranged (since the Facty can reformat his feats at a moments notice if need be, he can swap between melee and ranged feats even), skillmonkey

Mystic Ranger : Same as the Facty, he's a one man army.

Binder : Capable of filling all kinds of roles, and the one hard one (trap finder) is easily done by the other three.  Hell, if binders can summon at all, they've got that covered too (gogo Dead Celestial Monkey!)
: Re: The Most Adaptable Party
: The_Mad_Linguist December 16, 2009, 08:17:26 PM
Yeah, I suppose
Factotum
Factotum/Chameleon
Sharn Mystic Theurge or Factotum
Spellthief (using bloodline + uncanny trickster + legacy champion to steal 9th level slas)

Is probably the most adaptable.

Spellthief + sharn = as many favored soul /sorcerer SLAs as you want. 
: Re: The Most Adaptable Party
: snakeman830 December 16, 2009, 10:37:17 PM
Hmm...how about :

Factotum : Absolutely anything with proper abuse of their capstone

Totemist : Melee, scout, ranged (since the Facty can reformat his feats at a moments notice if need be, he can swap between melee and ranged feats even), skillmonkey

Mystic Ranger : Same as the Facty, he's a one man army.

Binder : Capable of filling all kinds of roles, and the one hard one (trap finder) is easily done by the other three.  Hell, if binders can bind the proper vestige to summon at all, they've got that covered too (gogo Dead Celestial Psuedonatural Monkey!)
Fixed for ya.  Zercyll is wonderful like that.
: Re: The Most Adaptable Party
: KellKheraptis December 16, 2009, 11:30:52 PM
Hmm...how about :

Factotum : Absolutely anything with proper abuse of their capstone

Totemist : Melee, scout, ranged (since the Facty can reformat his feats at a moments notice if need be, he can swap between melee and ranged feats even), skillmonkey

Mystic Ranger : Same as the Facty, he's a one man army.

Binder : Capable of filling all kinds of roles, and the one hard one (trap finder) is easily done by the other three.  Hell, if binders can bind the proper vestige to summon at all, they've got that covered too (gogo Dead Celestial Psuedonatural Monkey!)
Fixed for ya.  Zercyll is wonderful like that.

Cool, something to remember for my Erudite if he feels like being fancy about his spells for the day (i.e. Linked Power ~> Converted Miracle from a Mantle ~> Emulate binding with a free greater effect).  Pseudonatural works even better too, what with all the tentacles :P
: Re: The Most Adaptable Party
: Havok4 December 16, 2009, 11:52:39 PM
Hmm...how about :

Factotum : Absolutely anything with proper abuse of their capstone

Totemist : Melee, scout, ranged (since the Facty can reformat his feats at a moments notice if need be, he can swap between melee and ranged feats even), skillmonkey

Mystic Ranger : Same as the Facty, he's a one man army.

Binder : Capable of filling all kinds of roles, and the one hard one (trap finder) is easily done by the other three.  Hell, if binders can bind the proper vestige to summon at all, they've got that covered too (gogo Dead Celestial Psuedonatural Monkey!)
Fixed for ya.  Zercyll is wonderful like that.
Actually they end up being Celestial and Psuedonatural due to the way zercyll is written.
: Re: The Most Adaptable Party
: Lycanthromancer December 17, 2009, 12:10:05 AM
I personally enjoy a swordsage/factotum (/chameleon)/shaper (/constructor)/druid group. Granted, it has a mix of tiers 1, 2, and 3, but it's capable of getting anywhere and doing anything, and only the druid is an actual spellcaster (psionics =/= spells). :P
: Re: The Most Adaptable Party
: snakeman830 December 17, 2009, 12:34:31 AM
Hmm...how about :

Factotum : Absolutely anything with proper abuse of their capstone

Totemist : Melee, scout, ranged (since the Facty can reformat his feats at a moments notice if need be, he can swap between melee and ranged feats even), skillmonkey

Mystic Ranger : Same as the Facty, he's a one man army.

Binder : Capable of filling all kinds of roles, and the one hard one (trap finder) is easily done by the other three.  Hell, if binders can bind the proper vestige to summon at all, they've got that covered too (gogo Dead Celestial Psuedonatural Monkey!)
Fixed for ya.  Zercyll is wonderful like that.

Cool, something to remember for my Erudite if he feels like being fancy about his spells for the day (i.e. Linked Power ~> Converted Miracle from a Mantle ~> Emulate binding with a free greater effect).  Pseudonatural works even better too, what with all the tentacles :P
Keep in mind it's the Psudonatural template in Complete Arcane, not ELH.

But yeah, Zercyll is absolutely amazing.