Brilliant Gameologists Forum
The Thinktank => Min/Max It! => : Takanaki November 04, 2009, 03:45:26 PM
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(http://i34.tinypic.com/34nhcm8.jpg)
There it is, by taking a Sovereign archetype for your normal Dragon can no longer dabble with divine spells, if indeed you had the ability to in the first place.
Presuming you did. If you used http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Alternative_Source_Spell,all would you be able to continue using your divine spells as arcane spells at -1CL as per the requirement of the aforementioned feat?
And Dragonwrought Kobold's that adopt the Loredrake archetype at first level, if their first level was Sorcerer would they lose out on no casting of divine spells? I guess so, that's what it says for white dragons and others in the same boat. Does it say you can't learn how to afterwards? If it does I don't see it.
So some Dragons lose out on a racial feature, other dragons get off without paying because they didn't know how to cast divine stuff anyway. Our Kobold is in the same situation, so we get a racial feature for free... and then we learn how to cast spells with our character levels.
Does Loredrake have no downsides for a player character, or am I missing something?
Edit:
For the uninitiated, Loredrake gives +2 to your Sorcerer level. It's pretty nice, details here: http://i36.tinypic.com/mip8o9.jpg
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You're correct, Loredrake is amazingly good for player characters.
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Not to mention stacking White Dragonspawn and Greater Draconic Rite ontop of it. +1LA for the Dragonspawn but +7 Natural Armour, Flight, Breath Weapon, +2Dex and +2Con, Immunity to Cold/Vulnerability to Fire (Easily fixed) and natural attacks... oh darkvision too incase you need it for some reason. Nearly missed out the best part, although its +1LA it gives +1 to your Sorcerer Level.
Sooo for Sorcerer Levels:
+2 Loredrake
+1 Greater Rite
+1 / +1 LA White Dragonspawn
Have fun my Kobold friends! I plan to Sorc2/Divine Caster1/Mystic Theurge my way to an effective level of Sorc16/Divine11 at level 13. There are probably better ways, Fochluchan Lyrist would be nice to get into if only I could get evasion a little easier.
Sorcerer 1/Cloistered Cleric 1 solves everything but Evasion, which can be acquired with two Incarnum feats, Open Least Chakra and Shape Soulmeld. If you are feeling loose with your feats then this isn't a problem, but you will be using two exclusively for Koboldy-ness. Namely, Dragonwrought and Draconic Reservoir will take your 1st and 6th level feats. Ontop of it you will need Versatile Spellcaster and Heighten Spell or some other way to enter early.
Without taking two flaws or using magical locations you would be in serious trouble. Thankfully there are a lot of magical locations so we can all rest easy. Ring of Evasion is only 25k anyway, find a friendly Artificer if all else fails.
And that concludes me talking to myself, thank you.
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+1 / +1 LA White Dragonspawn
1) good luck getting a DM to accept that.
2) good luck finding the book it's in
3) It's actually +3 LA, unless you worship the correct deity, IIRC.
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It's in Dragonlance and it's LA+1
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By all means correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't White Dragonspawn require Humanoid subtype?
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By all means correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't White Dragonspawn require Humanoid subtype?
The errata'd version gives you the Draconic type, so you can skip dragonwrought to begin with.
Or so i heard someone claim (i'm not terribly reliable about this)
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By all means correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't White Dragonspawn require Humanoid subtype?
Corporeal or Monstrous Humanoid. A Kobold is Humanoid.
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By all means correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't White Dragonspawn require Humanoid subtype?
Corporeal or Monstrous Humanoid. A Kobold is Humanoid.
If you're not a human you get forced into becoming a dragonspawn abomination (+1 la), which can give you another three levels of spellcasting. Example, White Dragonspawn Abomination Loredrake Kobold at the 6th level can cast as a 13th level sorcerer.
However, nearly no DM allows it and the legality of it is very questionable. You could probably get it to pass if you were single classed in a gestalted game or something. Since you cannot acquire the 25 rank or whatever in spellcraft, the extra caster level advancements really just cover branching out, like a warblade/jpm/mon combination.
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Maybe I'm wrong here,
As I understand, the cleric spells cast by dragons are still cast as arcane. It is simply that the cleric list is added to their arcane spellcasting ability (default: sorc/wiz list). Same sort of deal as the Rainbow Servant. Thus Alternative Spell Source doesn't apply as the prerequisite is the ability to cast divine.
Dragons can later in their life take a PrC that converts their casting to divine, prepare/cast as cleric, dumping arcane: Draconomicon - Dispassionate Watcher of Chronepsis, etc.
Steel Dragon is probably the most interesting outside of Kobold shenanigans.
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Even if Dragonspawn would give Dragon subtype, i think that the reason Kobolds qualify as True Dragons is because they get only benefits with being older, thus you still need the Dragonwrought feat...
The Problem is that a Dragonwrought Kobold is BORN as a Dragon, and not Humanoid, and thus doesn't qualify by RAW
You were born a dragonwrought kobold, proof of your race’s innate connection to dragons
Now, Now... A little off-topic, but... can you get two archetypes at the same time?
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Dragonwrought / Dragonspawn can both apply to you at character creation, who is to say which happens first.
Loredrake is a dragon archetype, everything else is everything else... I don't remember the game ever being balanced :lmao
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Don't you see the point?
Dragonspawn is an acquired template, it must be added by fusing the mind and the soul of the "victim" with the shard of a Draconian's, if you are BORN a dragon, then you cant qualify for it
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If I take Dragonspawn at creation this would make me a Dragonspawn... indeed. Then I take the Feat Dragonwrought to make me a Dragon with Loredrake. Dragonspawn doesn't stop the character being a Kobold so he still qualifies for Dragonwrought as far as I can see. It seems to come down to an issue of which order they are applied, or which one takes precedence. There is no rule I can find that prevents you from applying these effects in the order of your choosing and being Dragonspawn doesn't preclude a Kobold from being Dragonwrought, if anything I would say it makes it more likely.
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It's in Dragonlance and it's LA+1
I believe it's only LA +1 if the dragon that turned you into a dragonspawn is still around, making you a thrall to its will. If you're independent, then it's LA+3.
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That's in the book Dragons of Krynn or something, and I have not got that book... nor have I looked at that book, nor has anyone. I mean, the book probably doesn't even exist right? It's all hear say. Even without Dragonspawn you have a good build, and I am sure there are ways around being a thrall in the worst case scenario.
Solution: Cover your eyes and disbelieve Heliomance / Find a way to break free of the Dragon's control.
Not 100% sure on how being a Dragon Thrall works, maybe Mind Blank would leave you immune or similar items/spells. In any case it's unlikely most people will to get to use the template as it's from another setting.
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It seems to come down to an issue of which order they are applied
Yes, that's the Key, Dragonwrought isn't like Cleave or Improved Initiative which you can get to learn anytime in your career, its something you're born with, or not. If you are on it's creation [as per the feat description "You were born a dragonwrought kobold"], thus it's the first thing you have to consider.
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Dragonspawn can also be an at birth/creation template, Dragonwrought would imply being made by a Dragon... and so are Dragonspawn. It seems to me that so long as you are both at creation/birth it works just fine and it all goes together nicely with your character just being one big bundle of Draconic mischief.
I cannot find anything to conclusively settle this, so as usual it will come down to your DMs interpretation but you're unlikely to find one that will allow you to take the White Dragonspawn template to begin with.
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Dragonspawn can also be an at birth/creation template
Can it? I thought it was something done in a ritual to existing creatures. Hence why it is an aquired template, and not an inherited one.
I cannot find anything to conclusively settle this, so as usual it will come down to your DMs interpretation but you're unlikely to find one that will allow you to take the White Dragonspawn template to begin with.
I've allowed it in a game I was DMing. With LA buyoff, even. Sorcerers are the bastard stepchildren of Wizards of the Coast, and I figured they could use the boost, anyway. Especially since that guy was using the Battle Sorcerer variant, which is even worse than the normal one.
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Regardless, you can always start out as a normal Kobold, and after obtaining the template use Psychic Reformation or DCFS to retrain your level 1 feat into Dragonwrought.
(And yes, that's a dirty trick, but I don't care :P)
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Dragonspawn can also be an at birth/creation template
Can it? I thought it was something done in a ritual to existing creatures. Hence why it is an aquired template, and not an inherited one.
I cannot find anything to conclusively settle this, so as usual it will come down to your DMs interpretation but you're unlikely to find one that will allow you to take the White Dragonspawn template to begin with.
I've allowed it in a game I was DMing. With LA buyoff, even. Sorcerers are the bastard stepchildren of Wizards of the Coast, and I figured they could use the boost, anyway. Especially since that guy was using the Battle Sorcerer variant, which is even worse than the normal one.
Eww Battle Sorcerer, also, the ritual apples to the mind and soul of the creature no age limit... do it to an embryo at fertilization : D or just retrain.
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Eww Battle Sorcerer, also, the ritual apples to the mind and soul of the creature no age limit... do it to an embryo at fertilization : D or just retrain.
An embryo is not a creature. Want to have that argument here? Or before Congress? :P
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Or the Supreme Court.
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That's in the book Dragons of Krynn or something, and I have not got that book... nor have I looked at that book, nor has anyone. I mean, the book probably doesn't even exist right? It's all hear say.
Actually, it's Dragonlance Campaign Setting.
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That's in the book Dragons of Krynn or something, and I have not got that book... nor have I looked at that book, nor has anyone. I mean, the book probably doesn't even exist right? It's all hear say.
Actually, it's Dragonlance Campaign Setting.
I heard it's the Dragons of Kynn book that says you get +3LA if you're not with your thrall leader. Dragonlance is where the template is from. There's more than a fair chance I am wrong though.
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I have the required books and actually took a look at how everything interacts. I created a epitome of Loredrakeness in the Namesake thread, if it interests anyone. For the record it still did worse than my tripple nines. It is a powerful combo to be sure but it isn't as bad as, say, a beholder mage.
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/me raises his hand
i just read about a special word.
then i find that word is in this thread and used in a way that really intrigued me.
im a little familiar w/ kobalds, and white dragonspawns and loredrakes.
but i cant quote backwards n forwards, and dont know the books off the top of my head..
what i saw in here was this
By all means correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't White Dragonspawn require Humanoid subtype?
Corporeal or Monstrous Humanoid. A Kobold is Humanoid.
If you're not a human you get forced into becoming a dragonspawn abomination (+1 la), which can give you another three levels of spellcasting. Example, White Dragonspawn Abomination Loredrake Kobold at the 6th level can cast as a 13th level sorcerer.
However, nearly no DM allows it and the legality of it is very questionable. You could probably get it to pass if you were single classed in a gestalted game or something. Since you cannot acquire the 25 rank or whatever in spellcraft, the extra caster level advancements really just cover branching out, like a warblade/jpm/mon combination.
im not used to seeing the 'abomination' word attached to dragonspawn.
abomination is that special word i read about a little bit ago.
is it being used descriptively or is the non human dragonspawn a proper abomination?
im afb, im afraid, or i would double check my self..
im not sure i have the krynn books to check w/ even..
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It is definitely not the Abomination type from the ELH. I can't tell you more than that, however.
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Honestly, White dragonspawn appears in three or four books, and has been errata and rewritten and adjusted and whatever, so unless we all agree on a book there's no point in discussing it, since we'll all be talking about different templates.
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Divine casting is a neat trick, but it falls into Mystic Thuge's CL vs varity trap (and it uses it's own spell slots for divine magic)