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The Thinktank => Min/Max It! => : Bulwer October 14, 2009, 11:13:00 PM

: 2nd level core-only Wizard or Sorcerer: what are my options?
: Bulwer October 14, 2009, 11:13:00 PM
Stats are 17, 15, 9, 9, 10, 13. What's my best bet for being a consistently useful party member from the start?
: Re: 2nd level core-only Wizard or Sorcerer: what are my options?
: Generic_PC October 14, 2009, 11:25:10 PM
Your preference. People on the Min/Max boards prefer wizards because they mostly look at something as quality > quantity. And, when wizards can learn every spell, while sorcs only get 4 or 5 of a level, you can bet that they'll have more quality, and argueably, more quantity too.

You'll want to give people more information, like other members of the party (or solo) and what kind of campaign you are playing (intrigue/combat, for instance) and even if your DM follows RAW or RAI. Houserules are also good to add.
: Re: 2nd level core-only Wizard or Sorcerer: what are my options?
: kelemvelor October 14, 2009, 11:27:13 PM
How long do you think the campaign will last into? It'll affect the decision.

Wizard offers faster spell level progression, entry into PRCs and versatility while Sorcerer offers flexibility and more spell slots. If we are to look purely on 2nd level, it is unlikely both wizard or sorcerer will have sufficient spell slots for the 'three encounters before rest'. Most spellcasters shine during character level 5 upwards, the lower levels is a case of 'try not to get killed'.

If you think that retraining is allowed, you can have one of the early builds.
: Re: 2nd level core-only Wizard or Sorcerer: what are my options?
: Bulwer October 14, 2009, 11:29:00 PM
It's a new DM, and strictly core-only. We've got a Rogue, a Fighter, a Cleric, and at least a few others. I'm the only arcane caster.

The main goal is to be functional at levels 2-6. I wouldn't worry about late-game stuff.
: Re: 2nd level core-only Wizard or Sorcerer: what are my options?
: juton October 14, 2009, 11:39:07 PM
Specialist Wizard, Conjuration or Transmutation. At lower levels your not far behind a Sorcerer's allotment of spells, plus you'll get 2nd level spells earlier. Go 17 Int, 15 Dex, 13 con whatever the rest. Give yourself a light crossbow, you'll be able to help in combat without using spells for a few levels.
: Re: 2nd level core-only Wizard or Sorcerer: what are my options?
: Tonymitsu October 14, 2009, 11:46:07 PM
Warning:  Wall of Opinion incoming.  I vastly prefer Wizards to Sorcerers.

Wizard 2
Be a conjuration specialist, give up Necromancy and Evocation.

Str: 9
Dex: 13
Con: 15
Int: 17
Wis: 10
Cha: 9

Max spellcraft, concentration, and knowledge skills appropriate to the campaign.
Take Sleep, Enlarge Person, Silent Image, Mage Armor, Grease, and Obscuring Mist as your spells.

Sleep takes care of groups of mooks.  Obscuring Mist makes ranged enemies come to you (Cast it and instruct the party to step back behind it).  Grease makes things flat-footed for rogues to kill (it forces you to make balance checks, if you attempt a Balance check without 5 or more ranks in Balance you are flat-footed).  Enlarge Person lets your melee's kill things better. and Mage Armor keeps you alive.  Silent Image is well... limted to your imagination.  They only get a will save if they interact with it.  Silent Image of a grease spell in front of smart enemies for example....

EDIT:  And ditto on the light crossbow.

For feats consider Toughness or Improved Initiative.

Don't forget to Scribe scrolls of your unused spells each night, to help you last over more encounters the next day.  A level 1 spell scroll costs you only 2 xp and 50 gp.  Half that if you scribe it with a caster level of 1 instead of two.

That should keep you useful regardless of the situation.
Guard. Your spellbook. With. Your life. (and your party members lives, if applicable)

And take a look at some of the most excellent caster guides we have here for your future games.  :D
: Re: 2nd level core-only Wizard or Sorcerer: what are my options?
: snakeman830 October 15, 2009, 12:34:35 AM
One possible use for Silent Image in-combat is an image of a spiky cage around the enemy.  If they don't have any real idea as to what your power level is, they will probably sit there for a bit.  After all, why take the risk it's an illusion?
: Re: 2nd level core-only Wizard or Sorcerer: what are my options?
: kelemvelor October 15, 2009, 01:12:48 AM
Wouldn't one of the enemy attempt to at least hit the cage. And once they made a successful roll, they automatically disbelief it.

Depending on their knowledge in magic, an illusion of a Prismatic Wall might be more effective. It may also end encounters (hey would you want to fight someone who casts Prismatic Wall during your low levels).

Illusions of obscuring mist/Solid Fog are also useful as not many players (and thus NPC) would actually spend an action to actually study it. They'll probably only get their Saving throw if they actually move into it or randomly try to fire into a space in the cloud (if fail, you have benefit of partial/full concealment). Oh right, tell your party that it is a Silent Image using a codeword. If they made the appropriate Will Saves (with a +4 bonus as you communicated to them), having a solid fog which only impairs one side is delicious.

Depending on how your DM rules, a silent image Ghost/Shadow may even help your rogue to flank. Basically the concept in flanking is in the enemy believing it is threatened by two opposite characters, works in RAI if not RAW (silent images do not threaten spaces).
See flanking: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040302a
: Re: 2nd level core-only Wizard or Sorcerer: what are my options?
: Negative Zero October 15, 2009, 01:25:26 AM
Wouldn't one of the enemy attempt to at least hit the cage. And once they made a successful roll, they automatically disbelief it.

Actually, no. If they make a successful roll, they've interacted with it, and they get a save to disbelieve.

: Re: 2nd level core-only Wizard or Sorcerer: what are my options?
: kelemvelor October 15, 2009, 01:28:49 AM
Wouldn't one of the enemy attempt to at least hit the cage. And once they made a successful roll, they automatically disbelief it.

Actually, no. If they make a successful roll, they've interacted with it, and they get a save to disbelieve.



If they make an attack roll, they get a save to disbelieve. If the attack roll is successful and they swing through the cage, they automatically disbelief it. See the example on attacking the guard.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060221a
: Re: 2nd level core-only Wizard or Sorcerer: what are my options?
: Bulwer October 15, 2009, 02:14:06 AM
I plan on being middle-aged, which only helps my ability modifiers.

Would you guys go with gray elf or human?
: Re: 2nd level core-only Wizard or Sorcerer: what are my options?
: Emy October 15, 2009, 02:18:14 AM
Humans kinda rock, but there aren't many feats worth taking in core, so I'd probably go Gray Elf. The Con penalty kind hurts, but they get a Dex bonus, so just put the 15 in Con and the 13 in Dex and you'll end up with the same stats as Juton suggested.
: Re: 2nd level core-only Wizard or Sorcerer: what are my options?
: Bulwer October 15, 2009, 02:20:27 AM
Humans kinda rock, but there aren't many feats worth taking in core, so I'd probably go Gray Elf. The Con penalty kind hurts, but they get a Dex bonus, so just put the 15 in Con and the 13 in Dex and you'll end up with the same stats as Juton suggested.

It also has the racial benefits, which are noticeable at this level. I think I'll go with it.
: Re: 2nd level core-only Wizard or Sorcerer: what are my options?
: Bulwer October 15, 2009, 02:59:13 AM
Here's a potential spellbook:

Grease
Mage Armor
Shield
Obscuring Mist
Color Spray
Silent Image
Summon Monster 1
Enlarge Person
Sleep
Charm Person

Any obvious changes?
: Re: 2nd level core-only Wizard or Sorcerer: what are my options?
: kelemvelor October 15, 2009, 03:41:04 AM
You have 9 level-1 spells known not 10.
1st level: 3 + 4 (Int mod)
2nd level: 2

Choose shield or mage armor. It is unlikely you would want to prepare both at the same time considering limited slots.

If you think you could obtain a wand of Silent Image (50 charges: 750 gp) through some means or other, there is no actual need to learn it. Try to ask DM if your character can obtain one with 25 charges (therefore half the price).

Get a scroll of Magic Weapon, it is not a spell you want to prepare but is one that when you do need it, it is incredibly useful. Nothing hurts more than encountering a DR/magic creature especially when you can't fling magical damage and everyone is too low level to purchase magical weapons.
: Re: 2nd level core-only Wizard or Sorcerer: what are my options?
: sonofzeal October 15, 2009, 04:55:38 AM
Focussed Specialist Wizard in any of the sexy fields..... or Sorcerer, and just wing it.  Either works.
: Re: 2nd level core-only Wizard or Sorcerer: what are my options?
: InnaBinder October 15, 2009, 10:49:28 AM
Here's a potential spellbook:

Grease
Mage Armor
Shield
Obscuring Mist
Color Spray
Silent Image
Summon Monster 1
Enlarge Person
Sleep
Charm Person

Any obvious changes?
Personal preference: I'd take Ray of Enfeeblement over Charm Person.  Unless you have foreknowledge of the enemies you're to be facing, the DM's intended adventure hook could make Charm Person all but useless.
: Re: 2nd level core-only Wizard or Sorcerer: what are my options?
: Emy October 15, 2009, 11:12:27 AM
You have 9 level-1 spells known not 10.
1st level: 3 + 4 (Int mod)
2nd level: 2

Int 17 + 1 (middle aged) + 2 (gray elf) = Int 20 [mod of +5]
: Re: 2nd level core-only Wizard or Sorcerer: what are my options?
: ninjarabbit October 15, 2009, 12:02:57 PM
Middle-aged grey elf specialist with improved initative sounds about right. A toad familiar helps with hit points but in the long run you'll be better off with a rat, bat, hawk, or raven familiar or even an improved familiar if the game lasts long enough.
: Re: 2nd level core-only Wizard or Sorcerer: what are my options?
: Emy October 15, 2009, 10:13:07 PM
this was a bad post anyway, you don't need to see it
: Re: 2nd level core-only Wizard or Sorcerer: what are my options?
: PhaedrusXY October 16, 2009, 01:23:34 AM
What part of CORE ONLY don't some of you guys understand? That means PHB, DMG, and MM (and only the first ones).
: Re: 2nd level core-only Wizard or Sorcerer: what are my options?
: Emy October 16, 2009, 07:08:28 AM
What part of CORE ONLY don't some of you guys understand? That means PHB, DMG, and MM (and only the first ones).

Forgot which thread I was in. My first suggestion fit the topic, at least :(