Brilliant Gameologists Forum
The Thinktank => Min/Max It! => : daken201 October 10, 2009, 03:53:45 AM
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ok the dm has changed a rule in the gestalt game... he removed the rule about Prc's on both sides at the same time
hmmm..... i just had an evilgasm. :smirk :devil
So anyone have any ideas on how best to use this non restriction?
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I'd use it to make use of a PrC that's usually not a very good idea. Like Yathrinshee, or... what's your starting level?
If it's above 8 or so, I'd do Vampire LA 8/Lifedrinker 9/Master Vampire 1/Divine Oracle 2 on one "side", and a standard magey type build on the other, say Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/War Weaver 5, lining up the lost caster level from War Weaver with the MV level or one of the DO ones. Flavor!
artificer/psi-artificer still takes the cake in my book.
I think that qualifies as tier sqrt(-1)
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artificer/psi-artificer still takes the cake in my book.
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Starting level and preferred general direction would be nice. I am always partial to dweometerkeeper//incantatrix especially with ways to get extra actions :)
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Planar Shepherd + Incantatrix?
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Give me a little while, and I'll give you a double 9 arcane archer abusing swift hunter dragoon :)
EDIT : Delivered as promised -
[spoiler]1)Fighter 1/Wizard 1
2)Fighter 2/Wizard 2
3)Lion Totem Barb 1/Wizard 3
4)Ranger 1/Wizard 4
5)Crusader 1/Wizard 5
6)Scout 1/Abjurant Champion 1
7)Scout 2/Abjurant Champion 2
8)Scout 3/Abjurant Champion 3
9)Ur-Priest 1/Abjurant Champion 4
10)Ur-Priest 2/Abjurant Champion 5
11)Ruby Knight Vindicator 1/Unseen Seer 1
12)Ruby Knight Vindicator 2/Unseen Seer 2
13)Ruby Knight Vindicator 3/Unseen Seer 3
14)Ruby Knight Vindicator 4/Unseen Seer 4
15)Ruby Knight Vindicator 5/Unseen Seer 5
16)Ruby Knight Vindicator 6/Unseen Seer 6
17)Ruby Knight Vindicator 7/Unseen Seer 7
18)Ruby Knight Vindicator 8/Mindbender 1
19)Ruby Knight Vindicator 9/Arcane Archer 1
20)Ruby Knight Vindicator 10/Arcane Archer 2
BAB 20
Divine CL of YIKES
Arcane CL of 20 (18th casting)[/spoiler]
You should have plenty of feats available to snag all the usual Dragoon antics, and heroics and mirror nove for any you're missing. Three feats will get you persistent buffs, and one polymorph will massively add to your repertoire of maneuvers (valkyrie). Use that giant block of feats at the beginning to snag prerequisites (I recommend Power Attack from Overwhelming Force style for the ranger fighting style), being sure to use Martial Wizard. Proceed to buff up and own face as a perfect maneuverability diving nuke, or sit back and fill the enemy full of arrows with that sick skirmish damage that will apply to anything with arcane ability (which at high level gesault is everything), or play GOD, with two different spell lists and extra swift actions. Oh, and good luck sneaking up, thanks to both persistent Foresight and Mindsight. Combining some of those healing maneuvers with a dragoon strike would be pretty sweet too, as your IL will easily be high enough to snag the best maneuvers that Shadow Hand, Devoted Spirit, and White Raven have to offer (I think those are the main three an RKV gets...), and if nothing else, they are observable, so a valid target for mirror move. If you want more raw power, I'll adapt my Ultimate Mage for gesault...but be ready for DMG dodging.
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Planar Shepherd + Incantatrix?
Whisper Gnome.
Wizard 2 / Metaphysical Spellshaper 3 / Incantatrix 10 / Shadowcraft Mage 5
Druid 5 / Planar Shepherd 10 / Nature's Warrior 5
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starting at level 2 and using the pathfinder races. i was thinking eather a Melee monster abusing warhulk and frenzy berserker or bear warrior or a shadowcraft mage like gnome (sub level)
wizard5 shadowcrafter 5 shadowcraft mage 10//scorcerer5 incantrix 10 x5
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oh yea... did i forget to mention that this is an evil campaign?
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a double 9 arcane archer abusing swift hunter dragoon
Presumably, this restriction is still in effect: "Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations-such as the arcane trickster, mystic theurge, and eldritch knight-should be prohibited if you’re using gestalt classes." So abjurant champion, ruby knight vindicator, and unseen seer would not be allowed.
You list the caster level for divine spells as "yikes." Supposing levels in prestige classes that advance ur-priest casting count as ur-priest levels and levels in prestige classes that advance wizard casting count as wizard levels for the purposes of the statement "to determine the caster level of an ur-priest, add the character's ur-priest levels to one-half his levels in other spellcasting classes," the caster level seems to be 19.
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a double 9 arcane archer abusing swift hunter dragoon
Presumably, this restriction is still in effect: "Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations-such as the arcane trickster, mystic theurge, and eldritch knight-should be prohibited if you’re using gestalt classes." So abjurant champion, ruby knight vindicator, and unseen seer would not be allowed.
You list the caster level for divine spells as "yikes." Supposing levels in prestige classes that advance ur-priest casting count as ur-priest levels and levels in prestige classes that advance wizard casting count as wizard levels for the purposes of the statement "to determine the caster level of an ur-priest, add the character's ur-priest levels to one-half his levels in other spellcasting classes," the caster level seems to be 19.
To my knowledge the only theurge classes not allowed in gesault are the explicit ones (e.g. Mystic Theurge, Arcane Hierophant, etc.). Abjurant Champion is NOT a theurge class, period. By your reasoning Eldritch Knight must be a theurge class because it progresses spellcasting with full BAB. Same with Unseen Seer. That is straight hogwash. The initial concept was spelled out in the beginning and the build fulfills that without any overt cheese, other than assuming Prestige Paladin fulfills the requisite for the adaptation of Ur-Priest. Though if people are going to get this picky about PrC's in gesault, I just might gesault my ultimate mage and recommend that. The DM even said to pull out all the stops, and the build above is me keeping the kid gloves on. Keeping things reasonable is one thing (i.e. no Ultimate Magus fast progressing Wizard or the like, or Foclucan Lyrist up one side for Full BAB, 2 good saves, etc to get FB on the other), but outwardly eliminating the primary gish PrC's and their adjoining abilities when the DM allows PrC's on both sides is rediculous.
Understand Maat_Mons that this isn't an attack at your criticism, but an attempt to make sense of an utterly senseless restriction. I'll have the Ultimate Gesault Mage posted later, daken201.
EDIT : For now, assume Wizard 3/War Weaver 5/Legacy Champion 4/Halruuan Elder 5/Incantatrix 3, and Black Ethergaunt up the other side. Once I get a better progression, that alone will make the world stop spinning on its axis.
EDIT #2: How about-
Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Shadowcraft Mage 5
Sorcerer 5/War Weaver 5/Legacy Champion 5/Halruuan Elder 5
Dual arcane 9's, full SCM and Incantatrix tricks, a pre-epic mythal, tons of free metamagic, all the war weaver goodness, Ocular Spell for targetting the tapestry, 8 spells of up to 9th level into the tapestry, Spontaneous Divination if you want it, and all spells keyed off of Silent Image, which you have spontaneous capability for. Oh, and you're an elf, with the elf sub levels, for rocket tag purposes. Tell reality to bend over and take its telephone pole up the ass, give Wee-Jas and Nerull the finger once the mythal is up, and laugh maniacally inside it as you are better protected than any Iot7V could ever imagine being, and fling spells that would make a dragoon cry.
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By your reasoning Eldritch Knight must be a theurge class because it progresses spellcasting with full BAB.
Yes, eldritch knight is specifically called out as a class that should be prohibited in gestalt. See the 3rd bullet point in the Class Features section of the gestalt rules.
Same with Unseen Seer.
Yes, pretty much the same, since arcane trickster is also specifically called out as a class that should be prohibited in gestalt and unseen seer is quite similar to arcane trickster.
Keeping things reasonable is one thing (i.e. no Ultimate Magus fast progressing Wizard or the like, or Foclucan Lyrist up one side for Full BAB, 2 good saves, etc to get FB on the other), but outwardly eliminating the primary gish PrC's and their adjoining abilities when the DM allows PrC's on both sides is rediculous.
I agree that losing access to certain class features is regrettable. Some DMs may be willing to allow custom prestige classes to add these options back in. The gestalt rules suggest the possibility of prestige classes that take up both sides of the gestalt progression, which could work well for scaled-up versions of the prohibited classes.
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Don't fucking tempt me to make a dual progression version of Ultimate Magus...it will make an Incantatrix look like a Loremaster, and fit the theme of gesault. And as for those classes being called out specifically...well, I guess channel spell is deemed hideously overpowered and wrong in gesault, as is the ability to sneak attack with a spell, which we can do all in nongesault, all with one single build. I have to go to the store to get dinner, but when I get back, I'll have both a functional gish posted, and the nightmare wizard from Baator. Don't say I didn't warn you all :devil
EDIT : And I'm fighting Abjurant Champion to the death. It DOES NOT PROGRESS ANYTHING OTHER THAN SPELLCASTING. EK progresses effective fighter level, or at least did last I knew (but I've been using the PF version for the better part of a month, so that may have been part of the improvement package). Saying any Full BAB spell progessing class is utter bullshit, pure and simple. EK has the case going for it that it starts with a fighter feat at least, no such deal with AC. Unless I see that spelled out unequivocally and explicitly, or explicitly banned by a DM, expect it in my builds.
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To my knowledge the only theurge classes not allowed in gesault are the explicit ones (e.g. Mystic Theurge, Arcane Hierophant, etc.). Abjurant Champion is NOT a theurge class, period. By your reasoning Eldritch Knight must be a theurge class because it progresses spellcasting with full BAB. Same with Unseen Seer. That is straight hogwash.
I'm calling BS on this whole statement. The gestalt rules quite clearly word it in an open-ended way as to which PrC's are excluded.Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations - such as the arcane trickster, mystic theurge, and eldritch knight - should be prohibited if you’re using gestalt classes...
It's not just casting combination classes. Any class that is very strongly a means of progressing two different base classes simultaneously. It even calls out Eldritch Knight specifically, which you apparently didn't know. And the Unseen Seer is the Arcane Trickster on steroids (better BAB and Skill points, and all else basically the same [one less sneak attack die]), which it also calls out as not allowed with Gestalt. And if Eldritch Knight isn't allowed, then Abjurant Champion certainly isn't; better HD and spell progression than EK. Yes, the rule relies heavily on DM interpretation (what is considered a "class that is essentially a class combination?") but very reasonably that includes things like Ruby Knight Vindicator. They wrote the rule open-ended for a reason; they knew they couldn't possibly list every conceivable class that they would ever produce that was a combo-class.
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I agree that losing access to certain class features is regrettable.
That's why I default to allowing combo classes in gestalt, but they take up both sides of your progression. The abilities are still there, but they may cost you more.
And I'm fighting Abjurant Champion to the death. It DOES NOT PROGRESS ANYTHING OTHER THAN SPELLCASTING.
Neither does Eldritch Knight. Oh, except you get 1 bonus feat in place of casting progression, and we all know the casting progression is more valuable.
Compare the Abjurant Champion: Full casting, a HD two steps higher than the EK (d6 vs d10), also one good save (though a different one), same skill points, and four out of five levels grant actual class abilities in addition to spellcasting (not one Eldritch Knight level does that).
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To my knowledge the only theurge classes not allowed in gesault are the explicit ones (e.g. Mystic Theurge, Arcane Hierophant, etc.). Abjurant Champion is NOT a theurge class, period. By your reasoning Eldritch Knight must be a theurge class because it progresses spellcasting with full BAB. Same with Unseen Seer. That is straight hogwash.
I'm calling BS on this whole statement. The gestalt rules quite clearly word it in an open-ended way as to which PrC's are excluded.Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations - such as the arcane trickster, mystic theurge, and eldritch knight - should be prohibited if you’re using gestalt classes...
It's not just casting combination classes. Any class that is very strongly a means of progressing two different base classes simultaneously. It even calls out Eldritch Knight specifically, which you apparently didn't know. And the Unseen Seer is the Arcane Trickster on steroids (better HD, BAB, and Skill points, and all else basically the same [one less sneak attack die]), which it also calls out as not allowed with Gestalt. And if Eldritch Knight isn't allowed, then Abjurant Champion certainly is; better HD and spell progression than EK. Yes, the rule relies heavily on DM interpretation (what is considered a "class that is essentially a class combination?") but very reasonably that includes things like Ruby Knight Vindicator. They wrote the rule open-ended for a reason; they know they couldn't possibly list every conceivable class that they would ever produce that was a combo-class.
I'm calling BS on the entire restriction, myself. Where do you draw the line? Is Windwalker banned for a character wanting to play a storm mage because it's Full BAB? Do we shitcan Ruathmari Battlemage for having partial BAB? How about Suel Archanamach? That seems just a tad bit gish, so must also be banned. Where's the line? A nazi DM could conceivably extrapolate just about any class as progressing more than one thing, and ban everything down to core with 0 PrCs.
And if we get into dual progressing PrC's, we're in homebrew territory, which is sort of inherent to Gesault. In that case my suggestion is take JPM, give it most of Incantatrix, and conquer the world. And if you get into trouble, the contingency keyed to emerald immolation means you have a get out of jail free card. Now which is worse : allowing AC or EK or Swiftblade, to allow a functional gish, or letting something in along the spirit of gesault and getting a telephone pole up the ass?
EDIT : I'll be back, store run. Consider this : Full FB up one side, full Ultimate Mage up the other, with Raged Casting. Do you want that in a game? Full BAB, d12's, good saves where they matter, and a mythal. Now do you see why I say banning some of the gish staples makes 0 sense? None, zip, zilch, nada, zero. Just trying to drive the point home, they're trying to prevent power creep in a powergame, when in reality they are ASKING to get buttfucked by disallowing the lesser of two evils.
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I'm calling BS on the entire restriction, myself. Where do you draw the line?
For my games I allow full arcane progression to get up to 3/4 BAB and still not be "dual progression;" divine casting progression can get up to Full BAB. I have similar limits on how much sneak attack something can grant before it reaches the "dual progression" territory. It's not that hard to draw the line far enough out that you don't exclude most legit "single class" PrC's, yet bar the ones that are quite obviously dual progression.
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I'm calling BS on the entire restriction, myself. Where do you draw the line?
For my games I allow full arcane progression to get up to 3/4 BAB and still not be "dual progression;" divine casting progression can get up to Full BAB. I have similar limits on how much sneak attack something can grant before it reaches the "dual progression" territory. It's not that hard to draw the line far enough out that you don't exclude most legit "single class" PrC's, yet bar the ones that are quite obviously dual progression.
And short of wasting levels on duskblade, one of the key abilities of gish is denied arbitrarily due to an interpretation of rules, and that's channeling spells. Spellblade? Nope, Full BAB and gets to smell spellcasting. Abjurant Champion? Rawr, IMBA-punpun! JPM? Omgwtfbbq, hax! That's the attitude I'm getting from this restriction. It is unfounded in brainpower and entirely the designers fearing gish, going so far as to nerf them to nearly unplayable in gesault. After I start on dinner I'll post conversions for some classes for gesault and see how you like them (and by extension, how the DM of the OP's game likes them). If he's cool with making gesault classes, that is. And if he's not, make a wizard that makes the Twice-Betrayer seem like a commoner.
EDIT : Here they are.
Jade Phoenix Mage
[spoiler]Changed :
-Full Arcane progression
-Full maneuver progression from previous initiating class[/spoiler]
Abjurant Champion
[spoiler]Changed :
-Bonus feat at 3rd level, either Wizard or Fighter list
-Levels count as fighter levels for feat qualificaton[/spoiler]
Ultimate Magus
[spoiler]Changed :
-Full progression up both sides
-Bonus feats at 1/4/7/10
-Metamagic Effect at 3rd, Metamagic Spell Trigger at 6th, and Snatch Spell at 9th
-Improved Metamagic at 10th[/spoiler]
Foclucan Lyrist
[spoiler]Changed :
-Progresses previous class abilities, allowing it to work for druids or wizards, and also allowing for higher tier fighter feats[/spoiler]
Mystic Theurge
[spoiler]Changed :
-NFI here...maybe give it some bonus feats, and the capstone from PF?[/spoiler]
More to come as I get ideas.
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I'm calling BS on the entire restriction, myself. Where do you draw the line? Is Windwalker banned for a character wanting to play a storm mage because it's Full BAB? Do we shitcan Ruathmari Battlemage for having partial BAB? How about Suel Archanamach? That seems just a tad bit gish, so must also be banned. Where's the line? A nazi DM could conceivably extrapolate just about any class as progressing more than one thing, and ban everything down to core with 0 PrCs.
The slippery slope (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope) argument is a logical fallacy.
And if we get into dual progressing PrC's, we're in homebrew territory, which is sort of inherent to Gesault. In that case my suggestion is take JPM, give it most of Incantatrix, and conquer the world. And if you get into trouble, the contingency keyed to emerald immolation means you have a get out of jail free card. Now which is worse : allowing AC or EK or Swiftblade, to allow a functional gish, or letting something in along the spirit of gesault and getting a telephone pole up the ass?
False dilemma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma) is also a logical fallacy.
It is unfounded in brainpower and entirely the designers fearing gish, going so far as to nerf them to nearly unplayable in gesault.
It is intended to stop triple progression. If you want to, for example, prevent players from simultaneously advancing the abilities of archivist, warblade, and wizard, it is not enough to get rid of the warblade // mystic theurge option; you must also get rid of the archivist // jade phoenix mage option.
For jade phoenix mage, I'd stick with an independent maneuver progression, but add the ability to trade old maneuvers for new ones at even-numbered levels. I'd also up the will save and hit die and add more disciplines.
For mystic theurge, I'd say d8 hit die, ¾ attack bonus, and good fort and will saves. Add in the spell versatility feature from geomancer, maybe upgraded to work for bonus spells. Class levels should probably continue to advance turn or rebuke undead and familiar abilities.
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I'd say take Sorcerer 6/War Weaver 5/Spellguard 4/Something 5\\Favored Soul 6/Geomancer 1/Sacred Exoricst 1/Geomancer +9/Sacred Exorcist +3.
Arcane Spellsurge + DMM + Eldritch Weave. Charisma is king.
Or something of a combination of wizard build and archivist build working in war weaver to get those yummy Bite of the Were[X] on to everyone.
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I'm calling BS on the entire restriction, myself. Where do you draw the line? Is Windwalker banned for a character wanting to play a storm mage because it's Full BAB? Do we shitcan Ruathmari Battlemage for having partial BAB? How about Suel Archanamach? That seems just a tad bit gish, so must also be banned. Where's the line? A nazi DM could conceivably extrapolate just about any class as progressing more than one thing, and ban everything down to core with 0 PrCs.
The slippery slope (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope) argument is a logical fallacy.
And if we get into dual progressing PrC's, we're in homebrew territory, which is sort of inherent to Gesault. In that case my suggestion is take JPM, give it most of Incantatrix, and conquer the world. And if you get into trouble, the contingency keyed to emerald immolation means you have a get out of jail free card. Now which is worse : allowing AC or EK or Swiftblade, to allow a functional gish, or letting something in along the spirit of gesault and getting a telephone pole up the ass?
False dilemma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma) is also a logical fallacy.
It is unfounded in brainpower and entirely the designers fearing gish, going so far as to nerf them to nearly unplayable in gesault.
It is intended to stop triple progression. If you want to, for example, prevent players from simultaneously advancing the abilities of archivist, warblade, and wizard, it is not enough to get rid of the warblade // mystic theurge option; you must also get rid of the archivist // jade phoenix mage option.
For jade phoenix mage, I'd stick with an independent maneuver progression, but add the ability to trade old maneuvers for new ones at even-numbered levels. I'd also up the will save and hit die and add more disciplines.
For mystic theurge, I'd say d8 hit die, ¾ attack bonus, and good fort and will saves. Add in the spell versatility feature from geomancer, maybe upgraded to work for bonus spells. Class levels should probably continue to advance turn or rebuke undead and familiar abilities.
I wash my hands of this, until I post my mage. Anything which deliberately eliminates one of the iconic playing styles arbitrarily with less reasoned thought that a fucking chimp is below me. And for the record, only a hypothesis needs a single false case to be disproven. A scenario only needs one case to be proven true, and I have provided that scenario above, which you seemed to conveiniently ignore as false logic. No, not false logic, malicious perhaps, but certainly not false. Utterly eliminating an entire caste of character types for no good reason at all makes the kid gloves come off. I was going to drop the matter entirely and focus on working on the conversions until that little puddle of biletext came along. :)
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starting at level 2 and using the pathfinder races. i was thinking eather a Melee monster abusing warhulk and frenzy berserker or bear warrior or a shadowcraft mage like gnome (sub level)
wizard5 shadowcrafter 5 shadowcraft mage 10//scorcerer5 incantrix 10 x5
For a gestalt melee type, I like Master of Many Forms on one side. Then either maintain druid casting on the other side, or maybe go with martial adept.
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If you can stomach being an Eberron Elf, go Revenant Berserker build up one side, then Wiz/War Weaver/LegChamp/Incant/HalEld up the other. Persistify any nasty buffs you want to become invincible, and then proceed to charge and puree anything in front of you, while playing GOD with Arcane Spellsurge and Rage Casting.
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I like some Variant of:
Dragonborn Grey Elf
Warblade 10/Eternal Blade 10//Egoist 10/Anarchic Initiate 10
You can change as you like, but the basis is a egoist gish. The synergies of Intelligence and Manifesting in Armor are appealing.
Favored Soul//Sorcerer with prestige classes to taste is relatively simple, and if you say away from DC spells on the Favored Soul side, you can neglect wisdom. Doubles as party "face".
Or maybe
Duskblade 20//Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Runecaster 5?
Full BAB; you're a great blaster, controller, buffer, and probably a decent gish in a pinch. Problem is Wizard Casting in armor. Is runecaster considered to be a "dual" PRC? Quick cast and channeling make me happy.
Consider
Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/War Weaver 5//Archivist 4/Druid 1/Planar Shepard 10/Dweomerkeeper 5? PRC 5
Loses a caster level each but an Incantatrix/Planar Shep is WIN. You could cut the archivist and just go straight druid, but Int synergy and the better casting archivist offers is awesome with planar shepard.
The recyclomancer is cool if you can use action points;
Wizard 5/War Weaver 5/Primal Scholar 5/Recaster 5, flavor your other side as you see fit. Either mix in divine casting or full BAB. Warblade is good, Crusader is good, Wildshape ranger is nifty. In fact, if you can cheese the Spontaneous Summon Nature's Ally casting onto ranger, Wildshape Ranger 5/Planar Shepard 10/Nature's Warrior 5 makes this WTFHAX.
Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Metaphysical Shaper 3/Whatever 2 (Fatespinner?)//Factotum 20
Metaphysical Shaper is a beauty from Book of Erotic Fantasy, we're talking Stilton cheese here.
This has a good Int synergy and BREAKS action economy with factotum. You have a grab bag of skills and full casting just to drive the point home. Works well as a blaster with the metamagic bonuses from Incanta and Meta, you lay down control first round and proceed to BURNINATE with spells until you get books thrown at you, run out of inspiration points, or simply get bored of casting spells. Just to give the finger to opponents, you can break SR with Factotum and break DCs with Fatespinner.
The key to optimizing gestalt is GET TIER 1 CASTING and from there get THINGS THAT HELP THAT CASTING. Everything else is secondary. If you feel like you wanna melee, go for divine casting for Divine Power or natural full BAB; either is useful.
Edit:
starting at level 2 and using the pathfinder races. i was thinking eather a Melee monster abusing warhulk and frenzy berserker or bear warrior or a shadowcraft mage like gnome (sub level)
wizard5 shadowcrafter 5 shadowcraft mage 10//scorcerer5 incantrix 10 x5
Try Changeling Full BAB 5/Warshaper 5/Frenzied Berzerker 10; can be fun.
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Anything which deliberately eliminates one of the iconic playing styles arbitrarily with less reasoned thought that a fucking chimp is below me.
No offense, but why is it hard to make a Fighter//Wizard gish of some variety in Gestalt? Doesn't seem eliminated to me.
Something like Ranger 1/Fighter 4/Spellsword 10/"X" 5//Wizard 5/Rogue 5/Wizard 5/"Y" 5 (Staggering Wizard levels to get full caster progression with Spellsword) seems very much like a workable, feasible gish, that ends up stronger than a non-gestalt gish on several levels. It even has Channel spell. If a player then wanted to take Abjurant Champion as both sides of level "XY," I think that would be an alright trade, though there are certainly other things that might be more useful in other ways.
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Anything which deliberately eliminates one of the iconic playing styles arbitrarily with less reasoned thought that a fucking chimp is below me.
No offense, but why is it hard to make a Fighter//Wizard gish of some variety in Gestalt? Doesn't seem eliminated to me.
Something like Ranger 1/Fighter 4/Spellsword 10/"X" 5//Wizard 5/Rogue 5/Wizard 5/"Y" 5 (Staggering Wizard levels to get full caster progression with Spellsword) seems very much like a workable, feasible gish, that ends up stronger than a non-gestalt gish on several levels. It even has Channel spell. If a player then wanted to take Abjurant Champion as both sides of level "XY," I think that would be an alright trade, though there are certainly other things that might be more useful in other ways.
Good luck getting Spellsword. The only means I see is Duskblade, assmuming that isn't outright banned for being inherently a fighter/mage.
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Good luck getting Spellsword. The only means I see is Duskblade, assmuming that isn't outright banned for being inherently a fighter/mage.
The concept of fighter-mage isn't what is banned; it is the idea of one side providing TOO MUCH in addition to the other side providing a host of class goodies. And dusk blade is a single class on par with most other base classes; there's no reason to disallow it. It's not the concept that is banned.
Spell sword is a "combo-class" in the sense that it works to mesh two base class ideas (fighter and mage), but it by no means is a full (or near full) dual-progression class; it only advances half arcane casting. Granted, this falls into the realm of DM interpretation of what a dual-progression class entails, but I freely allow classes that only grant half caster progression in gestalt.
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There's too many casting suggestions, and not enough dumb fighter types!
How about combining War Hulk || Hulking Hurler + Blood Storm Blade. Takes care of that pesky BAB loss from War Hulk, and lets you do amazing stuff with your thrown weapons.
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There's too many casting suggestions, and not enough dumb fighter types!
How about combining War Hulk || Hulking Hurler + Blood Storm Blade. Takes care of that pesky BAB loss from War Hulk, and lets you do amazing stuff with your thrown weapons.
Because casting is wtfpwnz. Almost anything a Big Dumb Fighter can do, a caster can do while multitasking one other role. Sadly true even in gestalt.
Who needs full BAB when you have divine power? All combat attacks are better with Mighty Wallop.
And so on... Enlarge Person.... Minor/Major Creation for large lead spheres that you can throw for your 453129d6 damage.
But if you want to totally avoid casting, yeah, War Hulk, Hulking Hurler, Bloodstorm Blade, Frenzied Berzerker, Bloodstorm Blade. All good.
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Of course casting wins. Everyone knows that. But not everyone likes to play casters. And sometimes it's just fun to be big and stupid. ;)
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Actualy i just found out the other players are playing a wizard // archivist, and a Fighter // Rogue. so yea i think i am going to go with the Melee option here :D.
01 Barbarian // Fighter
02 Barbarian // Fighter
03 Barbarian // Warblade
04 Barbarian // Warblade
05 Barbarian // Warblade
06 Warhulk // Frenzy berserker
07 Warhulk // Frenzy berserker
08 Warhulk // Frenzy berserker
09 Warhulk // Frenzy berserker
10 Warhulk // Frenzy berserker
11 Warhulk // Frenzy berserker
12 Warhulk // Frenzy berserker
13 Warhulk // Frenzy berserker
14 Warhulk // Frenzy berserker
15 Warhulk // Frenzy berserker
16 Bloodstorm blade // Hulking Hurler
17 Bloodstorm blade // Hulking Hurler
18 Bloodstorm blade // Warblade
19 Bloodstorm blade // Warblade
20 Bloodstorm blade // Warblade
How does that look?
Only getting in 5 levels of Bloodstorm blade but i want the deathless frenzy. I am not completely attached to survivor but i dont know wht else to put in there, or for the last two levels on that side. any tips?
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barbarian and fighter overlap too much
edit: also, by default you can't take two prestige classes during the same level in gestalt.
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Changed the fighter levels after 2 into warblade levels
I want the first 2 levels of fighter for the Bonus feats
Also in the OP i stated that the DM is letting us use 2 Prc's at the same time
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Changed the fighter levels after 2 into warblade levels
I want the first 2 levels of fighter for the Bonus feats
Do dungeoncrasher variant anyway :D
Also in the OP i stated that the DM is letting us use 2 Prc's at the same time
As yes, sorry, too many gestalt threads floating near the top :)
Do you know how your DM handles LA or racial hit dice?
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I am playing an ogre race that he designed. +10 srt -2 dex +4 con -2 int - 2 wis - 4 cha. Large size, giant type, +5 NA and no HD or LA. yea i am gonna stay with this race lol.
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You can still template it for "lolz".
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Large Size, +10 str, natural armor, for no level offset?
Can I play, too? :devil
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Nice build. See if you can get an extra set of arms, so you can up the STR damage on your weapon, per the Savage Species / Multi-armed rule. So instead of 1.5 x STR, you get like 3 x STR or whatnot.
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could snag grillion arms, or work twards the insectoid template but that would have to be all done in game, he is not allowing templates to start with :(