Brilliant Gameologists Forum

The Thinktank => Min/Max It! => : Gr1lledcheese July 02, 2009, 07:07:58 PM

: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3, #1 of 2.
: Gr1lledcheese July 02, 2009, 07:07:58 PM
I made the mistake of not reserving posts under the original, so I split the post into two. Tier 3 seems to be very popular.  :)

It was brought up that there's no set explanation for why low tier classes are generally less effective. With that in mind, I figured I'd start one. I'll be doing one for each tiers, but I want to get the low tiers out of the way first, because most people know why classes like Wizards and Druids are above average. I'm looking for your input on the classes, and to make this a guide for people new to CO. Thanks to all who contribute in advance.

From JaronK's Tier System For Classes guide, the widely accepted Char Op base power description thread:

Tier 3: Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with. Challenging such a character takes some thought from the DM, but isn't too difficult. Will outshine any Tier 5s in the party much of the time.

Examples: Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Crusader, Bard, Swordsage, Binder (without access to the summon monster vestige), Wildshape Varient Ranger, Duskblade, Factotum, Warblade, Psionic Warrior

A note on Tier 3s: I'd like to point out something.

Being a tier 3 is NOTHING to be ashamed of.  Tier 3 are the herald's of destruction, they can do humongously more damage in battle than tier 1 and 2 characters and are still immensely useful out of combat.  Simply put, if you're a least bit intelligent, you won't be bored playing a tier 3 character.

But you're not tier 2.  Or tier 1.

Tier 1 characters can BREAK THE GAME, litterally, all of them, that's why they are gods, that's why we are wary of the power we wield when we use them.

Tier 2 characters can BREAK THE GAME, just a tad less obviously, or in a more limited way.   

So anyone who feels insulted their class is ''only tier 3''  when they play one in game, DON'T BE!  It's still incredibly good.  Heck, i played a game with 3 tier 1 and a tier 3, and the tier 3 was always useful in battle.  Eventually, it got so easy it was boring!!!  We had to tangle with actual GODS at level 21 just to keep it challenging! -Alastar

Why Tier 3's are in tier 3:

Beguiler:
[spoiler]
Cons: A Beguiler, like a rogue, is very vulnerable to certain types of enemies unless they can cover their gaps with specialized magical items. Mindless creatures, those immune to Enchantments or Illusions, creatures with blindsight, true seeing, high SR, or even a high will save can be tough for Beguilers to beat.

Illusions and Enchantments derive much of their power from the creativity of the player and the cooperation of the DM. A player who just wants to blast his enemies will not do well with a beguiler. A DM whose NPC's always attempt to subvert commands and who are all paranoid of illusions can cripple a Beguiler.

While the Beguiler knows more spells than a sorcerer, and is absolutely better than a Sorcerer who takes only Enchantment and Illusion spells, it lacks the versatility of Sorcerers or Wizards to have the right tool on hand for every situation.

While superior in mundane combat to low level sorcerers and wizards, the beguiler is still one of the weakest combatants in the game, and the Surprise Casting class feature is almost a trap to lure unsuspecting players near their enemies where they can be crushed. -Braithwaite

Pros: Beguiler is probably the most flexible of the three "specialist Sorcerers", the other two being Dread Necromancer and Warmage.

For an arcane caster, the beguiler is reasonably hardy. Light armor is roughly equal to a sorcerer's Mage Armor, without taking up a spell slot. Weapon proficiencies similar to a rogue and d6 hit points per level mean that at low level the Beguiler can be marginally better in combat than a wizard.

The beguiler is a top of the line skill monkey. They really have more than 6 skill points per level, because Int is their casting stat, and they are almost obliged to keep it as high as possible anyway. They have trapfinding. If they decide to ignore parts of their excellent skill list, they can cover the gaps with their flexible spell list. For example, a beguiler with low hide can replace it with invisibility or silent image, or a beguiler with bad social skills can recover with charms, Suggestion, or Dominate. Use Magic Device can be used to mask some of their weaknesses.

The beguiler is a full caster. They automatically know every spell on their spell list, and their spell list can be widened by a number of feats, prestige classes, and the advanced learning class feature. At each spell level their list includes a number of excellent spells. They get some free metamagic feats and their cloaked casting ability helps them overcome enemy defenses when casting on opponents who are denied their dex bonuses.

The beguiler is capable of doing one thing quite well. It is excellent at neutralizing opponents with charms and illusions. When that is inappropriate, it can still contribute with Trapfinding, Use Magic Device, or a handful of buff spells. -Braithwaite
[/spoiler]

Dread Necromancer:
[spoiler]
Cons: I'm playing a Dread Necromancer right now, and I can assure you Planar Binding is FAR weaker on them than a Sorcerer or Wizard.  Without magic circle, a Dread Necromancer has to kill and reanimate anyone they bind... they can't just use services or anything.  And that can be a little hard to do.  Once that's complete, they can only reanimate them as a Skeleton or Zombie if they want gaurenteed control, which is hardly impressive.  If they want to control the creature, they could use Create Undead to make a Bone Creature... but it's DM fiat as to which version of Create Undead they need to use to get such a critter.  And now they have to rebuke the creature... which is difficult if they don't have the items they need to make that work (Lyre of the Restful Soul, Rod of Defiance).  And by the time they can actually make all this work, we're already in very high levels where the Sorcerer is about to start Shapechanging, usually.

On paper it's great, but the DN version of Planar Binding isn't anywhere near the Wizard/Sorcerer version.  I know... I'm using it in a game right now! -JaronK

Pros: Assuming you have half a brain and take tomb-tainted soul at first level, you get unlimited free out of combat healing.  You can pull off the same rainbow servant shenanigans as the warmage, but have less incentive to do so because your class features are better.  The familiar you get is actually useful in combat, and you certainly have some good fear stacking synergy with it - plus, you can use it to extend your personal buffs to other party members if you choose the ghostly visage. -The_Mad_Linguist
[/spoiler]

Crusader:
[spoiler]
Opening up with the fact that this tank base class has the highest HP this side of a raging Barbarian (AKA, the side you want to be on), this class is a reasonably powerful cannon. It has some serious potential.
-Sinfire Titan

The penultimate Tank class, only Tier 1s and 2s task built exceed it.  Even then it has a major advantage in staying power. -Keldar

Cons: *Sigh*, Steely Resolve applies to pretty much 1 attack/round at the early-mid levels due to low absorption factor. No control over maneuvers granted makes combat unpredictable when you expand their options with PrCs. No control over the recovery mechanic means you can lose some options to the action economy. Only a d10 HD, when it should have had a d12 (seriously, this class is the most deserving of a d12 HD). Most limited access to the 9 disciplines. -Sinfire Titan
-----------------------------------------------

Highly melee focused, loosing most of its offense and defensive abilities without a foe to hit in melee.  MAD to a lesser degree than many, serviceable with just good STR and CON, it also wants for WIS and CHA to shore up will saves, and DEX to take advantage of it's AoO related abilities.  Many class abilities are pure filler.  Feat starved due to all but needing Extra Granted Manuver and the highly desirable Stone Power. -Keldar

Pros: Furious Counterstrike. Cha to Will saves. Access to 2 of the most powerful styles in the game (and Stone Dragon). Able to heal themselves reliably well. Full BAB. A recovery mechanic independent of the action economy (this would be 2nd only to the Warblade). Basically, if you want a tank this is the class to look into. Practically the easiest to optimize (2 feats, tops), its perfect to beginners. -Sinfire Titan
---------------------------------------------
Can last all day long.  Has the offensive and buffing abilities to make the character a threat unlike some other meat-shield oriented classes.  The Crusader can even lend some of its resilience to others when it is ignored, and is basically the only class that can make good use of in combat healing. -Keldar
[/spoiler]

Bard:
[spoiler]
Cons: Inside core, the only real useful feat for a bard is Skill Focus. Maybe the Spring Attack chain. A bard doesn't get enough weapon proficiencies in class to make a very good meleer, the rogue out sneaks them, etc. Not an ideal replacement for any dedicated class, and are thusly relegated to the role of secondary whatever.

Also, their low hit die and medium base attack bonus means that most people will outmatch them in a straight fight. -Woodenbandman
---------------------------------------------------

The main problem is that bards are too spread out. They can do several things and contribute to the party, but they don't excel anywhere.

Again, spreading too much is a problem (bard's less stretched than lightning warrior unfortunately). No transmutations make me sad. Most of the songs need to be swapped for alternative ones. You just need inspire courage and inspire greatness (coupled with polymorph, yay!), really. Countersong is probably the worst class feature. Ever. No 7th and above spells (where the party starts). No spot skill is a minor detail, but it bugs me Tongue

Last but not least, the biggest con is not being respected by your own party Tongue ("bards? meh! What, are you gonna, like, sing the monsters away?", "Nonono, i was able to hit that monster anyway, didn't need your +WTFOMFGPWND inspire courage mod") -Dictum Mortuum

Pros: Great support outside of core in splatbooks. Feats that benefit multiclassed bards and prestige classes mean that a bard can cover any archetype of character adequately, whether it's Fighter, Tank (though illusionary defenses add up really well), sneak, face, magic user, healer, or buffer. They can even cover two of these roles at once, in many cases. Best at buffing, though (9d6 or however the hell much it is energy damage on each attack the party makes is awesome. Can make a strong case for using TWF if there's no rogue in the party already).

Very decent spell list. Some bard specific spells (Glibness, Hymn of Praise) are awesome and make any party fawn over the thought of a bard. Some spells not limited to bards only (Alter Self, Grease, Haste, Greater Blink, Greater Mirror Image) are extremely awesome anyway.

A great host of alternate class features, including songs that cause debuffs (that one that makes enemies attack each other is nice), the ability to use a fascinate effect with a DC based on a skill check (allowing you to often bypass a lot of hazards such as guards that must be snuck past), along with the ability to instill suggestions to a crowd at high levels, is awesome. -Woodenbandman
---------------------------------------------------

They can buff, heal, speak, UMD, cast, scout, damage, summon. If there are martial characters in the group (or summoners) they're gonna love the bard, even if they don't optimize their inspire courage, as haste and displacement are equally spicy. Bardic music stacking with lingering song ftw. I love how they can cure a stupid amount of HPs using CLWs by chanting that healing hymn. I also love the half-elf substitution levels, especially coupled with deepwyrm half-drow. Actually, now that i think of it, bards have some quality alternative class features available. Take obtain/improved familiar and you have two of a character. A hasted power attacking (through heroics Tongue) bard who also inspires courage and wields a two handed weapon is scary -_-

Also: whip proficiency, hell yeah \m/ i'm goddamn indiana jones baby! -Dictum Mortuum
[/spoiler]

Swordsage:
[spoiler]
Cons: IMO, the swordsage is probably the most well-balanced of the 3 martial classes (which also means that it is the weakest).

For a melee class, the swordsage seems to be an anomaly in that it gets only a d8, 3/4 bab, light armour, no shield and has good reflex/will saves but poor fort saves. With a noticeable lack of ranged capabilities, you are clearly expected to wade into melee, but none of your class features seemed geared towards helping you survive a retributive full attack from the enemy. So you likely need to play your swordsage more conservatively, having him skulk around the sidelines, moving in to strike only when the foe is preoccupied with a more imminent threat like the party barb or warblade. And even then, you better have a good way of retreating in case things get ugly. Better get a flight speed + flyby attack, or try to simulate spring attack somehow (eg: move, strike, use quicksilver motion/shadow blink to move away as swift action).

It appears to suffer from MAD. You are limited to light armour + no shield, so you will likely want to maintain a high dex score to boost your AC. Wis as well, since you add it to your AC, and it improves a variety of features, such as the save DCs of your maneuvers and the bonus damage from insightful strike. It has a fairly good skill list, so it is very tempting to invest in 12 int minimum to ensure you have sufficient skills. As with any class, a decent con is mandatory for sufficient hp. In addition, unless you wield a finessable weapon, you will likely want a good str score as well to boost your attack rolls. Cha remains a dump stat, but that is scant consolation for the fact that the class still leaves you with incentive to want to boost the other 5.

The swordsage gets the most number of maneuvers known and readied. But this is a mixed blessing, since you cannot ready any maneuver more than once, so you are typically left with 1 of 2 options - either maintain a good mix of strikes, counters and boosts (which means that you cannot really excel in any one aspect), or fill your excess slots with suboptimal maneuvers after choosing the choice ones.

He is also hampered by a very inefficient recharge mechanic (though to be fair, it can be mitigated with a single feat - adaptive style). I say "mitigated" rather than "solved" because spending one full round doing nothing to get all your maneuvers back is still quite a steep cost (though the upside is that you can also swap in useful maneuvers in place of less useful ones).

One full round just to get back 1 maneuver. Given the average length of a typical encounter, don't bother. You are "encouraged" to ration and use them sparingly, to ensure that you have enough to see you through the entire fight (which ties back to my earlier point about filling excess slots with subpar maneuvers). Contrast this with a warblade, who can easily alternate between spamming his best maneuvers and full-attacking (as part of refreshing), or a crusader who automatically refreshes his maneuvers every 3 rounds.

The array of disciplines don't seem all that stellar either. Desert wind and shadow hand are fairly weak, and it seems quite difficult to base a character build around them (a number of builds I see tend to revolve around specializing in diamond mind/tiger claw, while splashing in desert wind/shadow hand. No experience with setting sun.

3/4 bab isn't necessarily as bad as it seems. Standard action strikes mean that you are making 1 attack each round at your highest attack roll, so you should still be able to hit fairly consistently. But you can't really afford to power attack, since you will unlikely have excess bab to "burn". -Runestar

Pros: With so many flaws, you are likely wondering "Where are the good points"? Well, they would be the maneuvers! They let you be everything a fighter fails at, by allowing you more options, all the better to tackle the various challenges thrown your way by the DM.

Your crappiest save assaulted by a save-or-die ability of impossibly high DC? It is the appropriate diamond mind save booster (moment of precise mind/mind over body/action before thought) to the rescue (and action before thought complements evasion quite nicely).

Mobility hampered by difficult terrain? Teleport (shadow blink) or ignore it (setting sun 1st lv stance).

Mobile foes giving you fits by constantly moving, thus denying you the full attack? Strike maneuvers let you move and still be able to deal respectable damage (and since the bonus damage is usually independent of the weapon you wield, you can still lay out the hurt even if you are armed with a puny dagger instead of a greatsword, since its damage dice comprises only a small portion of the total damage dealt). Sometimes, you want to do more than just damage. There are quite a few maneuvers which rider-effects that allow you to debuff a foe in a variety of ways (such as negative lvs, restricting their movement or preventing them from full-attacking).

And thanks to martial study, you can also access cross-class maneuvers. Hit by a pesky status effect like wave of exhaustion? Remove it with iron heart surge. Only problem is that the swordsage does not really get that many feats, and quite a few will probably be tied up in the form of adaptive style, weapon finesse and possibly shadow blade (which also has the drawback of locking you in a shadow hand stance), so again, you only have so many feats to play around with.

Simply put, maneuvers help make melee fun again, and this is no exception even for the swordsage.

I would rate it as a tad inferior to the warblade (or in the very least, it would be more more tricky to play effectively), but the sheer utility of maneuvers more than suffices in letting it stay in the tier3 range. -Runestar
-------------------------------------------

As was noted for many of the lower tier classes, and as is always true for ToB classes, Swordsage makes a handy 1 or 2 level dip. If you are a caster and only expect to swing a weapon if cornered or for a few rounds every combat after you have finished your party buffs or battlefield control, the crummy recharge mechanic won't hurt you. Likewise, if you are a meleer and plan on doing mostly full attacks except for the few rounds when you are moving or otherwise prevented, the recharge mechanic isn't a problem.

For Wisdom using classes, the Swordsage Wisdom to AC in light armor is much better than the similar Monk/Ninja ability. Even a simple chain shirt with the +4 from an 18 wisdom comes out the same as plate mail, and a high level Swordsage with a magic mithral breastplate and high wisdom is likely to have the highest AC in the party, as well as a good touch AC. Unfortunately, boosting AC is usually not as effective as other build strategies, but if you decide that you want to build a high AC character, Swordsage + any wisdom based full casting class will probably outperform lower tier classes more typically thought of as "tanks", like Knight, Paladin, or sword & shield Fighter. -Braithwaite
[/spoiler]
: Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3.
: ninjarabbit July 02, 2009, 08:23:06 PM
Duskblade:

The duskblade is basically an arcane barbarian with a few more tricks thrown in, capable of doing high amounts of damage in melee thanks to arcane channeling and good feat selection.

Cons: The duskblade's spell list is very limited, lacks buffs, battlefield control, and utility spells, and doesn't get that many top tier spells. The duskblade doesn't get any touch attack spells to channel past the 3rd level and he only has a handful of good spells that can be channeled. The duskblade only gets up to 5th level spells (though some of it's spells are higher level on other spell lists like polar ray and disintigrate). The duskblade can be a borderline one-trick pony and is really tight on feats. A d8 hit dice makes it a little more frail than most other melee types, though a channeled vampric touch helps with this.

Pros: The duskblade can really dish out the damage in melee with arcane channeling and feats like power attack, knowledge devotion, and arcane strike. The duskblade does get a handful of debuffs like ray of enfeeblement, touch of idiocy, ray of exhaustion, and enervation. The duskblade does get quite a few spells per day and combined with a ring of wizardry or two he can arcane channel/arcane strike for a long time. The duskblade effectively get sudden quicken up to 4 times a day. The duskblade can cast in armor, partially making up for his lack of defensive spells. A d8 hit dice and full BAB make obtain familiar/improved familiar viable feat choices.
: Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3.
: SorO_Lost July 02, 2009, 08:41:54 PM
Pros
Warblades are simply the best melee class ever.

Ok to reiterate, Warblades pack a d12 hit dice, full BAB, proficiency with all melee martial weapons, and up to medium armor as their basic class stats meaning they are meant for melee combat. From there things go uphill at a staggering pace.

For one thing they are the smart fighter, none of that 'Thorg smash puppies' stuff fighters do. Warblades get bonuses for having intelligence such as adding their int bonus to reflex saves, crit confirmation, damage rolls when flanking, all those combat maneuvers in the PHB, and finally attack and damage rolls for AOOs. Oh and did I mention they sport 4 skill points per level and can pick up skills like balance,tumble and intimidate?

Another thing to mention is Weapon Aptitude which not only lets you have access to but lets you swap your Weapon Focus chain of feats on the fly. Did you focus on longswords but find this awesome mace? Spend an hour playing with it and poof, instant retraining with no XP cost!

By the 6th level a warblade has improved uncanny dodge and a bonus feat. Later on they will pick up an additional three bonus feats from a limited but useful list. It's kinda like stealing class abilities from the Barbarian and Fighter at the same time.

Then there is the maneuver system the ToB introduced of course, the warblade gets the best recovery mechanic of all the classes. When you run out of maneuvers just attack someone. Yes I said attack them. I mean in a boring no maneuvers used sort of way, but it's the same exact (full) attack actions that you are used to using and the monsters still are. Walk over and beat the every living crap out of something to recover your maneuvers to beat the remaining blood out of them next round. Fun times.

Warblades can choose from any of the unsupernatural style of schools. They are realistic and in your face. They don't care about such things like fire, ghosting people, or purifying the wicked. Keep it simple, the pointy end goes into the foe a dozen times or the sharp edge slices them into pieces. Expect your average warblade to ignore save or die effects, to break battle control effects cast at them, to set the battle field in favorable conditions and exploit it, and to be seen helping the entire party's melee capabilities.

Finally, even those high nosed RPers will love the warblade. Now they have rules and effects backing such stories as 'I leap up and slice the snake's head clean off'. Even the most boring of players will find them selves shouting out the names of their attacks and bragging about how cool their character looks while swinging his sword. No more boring 'I attack..." comments. Ever. Well, unless it's part of a small joke, such as 'I attack... With my Finishing Move after flash stepping behind them and my blade lights up resembling molten lava to burn away their very soul!'. Maneuvers are so flavorful...

Cons
They don't have ranged attacks and always have to use mithral as their armor's material if they want to use full-plate. That's it.

Warblades are tier 3 only because 9th level spells are better than the rule books and not because the monster manuals are packed full of monsters that can kill them. Being the horseman War is great and all, but it will always be second best to a god.

***

And have some text on the maneuver system since all three of the ToB classes are in their tier.

[spoiler]
The maneuver system found in the ToB offers all kinds of goodies and come in four basic types.
Strikes, those make the peoples fall down. Some strike are simple, make an attack and add 100 to the damage or they take 2d6 con damage. Others are more complex and have you roll a d20 to see which ability takes 2d6 damage and adds in further penalties they can try to save against.
Boosts, are awesome. Most are done as swift actions and are a great team helper. After all, the wizard does not have to spend a round casting haste on you if they don't want to.Boost range from granting you extra attacks, move actions, +3d6+20 fire damage per attack, to preventing a foe from making AOOs, to simple things like an ally gets an extra turn.
Counters, are just yet another way the ToB rocks. counters tend to take an intimidate action and grant things that sound kinda like boosts. They do such things as replacing a save with a concentration check, teleporting them to a ranged attacker, to making you incorporeal. It's great.
Stances, also grant extra stuff. They tend to give out less than a boost but unlike a boost your bonus from a stance exist as long as your awake and unbound. You could make fort saves to avoid death from HP loss, heal 2 damage per attack, increase your range, or preform AOOs on anyone that moves for any reason.

From there, their are nine different schools of combat.
Desert Wind focuses on fire effects. Fireballs, bonus fire damage, resistance to fire and limited flight.
Devoted Spirit focuses mostly on healing, defense, and alignment based stuff.
Diamond Mind focuses on mental stuff, like concentration checks for damage or saves.
Iron Heart is what Link focuses on and we all know how badassed he is.
Setting Sun focuses on throwing people like the rag dolls they are.
Shadow Hand focuses on assassinations, debuffing, and contains some teleportation effects.
Stone Dragon focuses on replacing dwarven defender. I jest, but it does help you become an immobile tank.
Tiger Claw focuses the raw savage fury of ripping your foes apart, critical hits, and TWF.
White Raven focuses on being a team player. Most of the stuff here helps the party out while you continue to kick ass.

The only bad thing is about a third of the maneuvers don't scale too well. Desert Wind and Setting Sun are horrible at it and the lower level maneuvers have to be replaced by higher level ones. In some ways this is fine. You cannot learn all the maneuvers so being able to classified some was replaceable means you won't spend hours trying to pick which ones you want to use.
[/spoiler]

: Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3.
: Tshern July 02, 2009, 08:49:07 PM
I still think Dread Necromancer has no reason to be Tier 3. We are still talking about class that can easily create an infinite army and gets Planar blinding at an appropriate spell level. They still get a decent BAB, infinite healing, free paralysis via their familiar, a load of cool advanced learnings and whatnot. Nevertheless, Planar binding alone makes them Tier 2.
: Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3.
: Lycanthromancer July 02, 2009, 09:03:17 PM
PSYCHIC WARRIOR
Many people take a look at the base chassis of the psychic warrior and immediately dismiss it as an inferior fighter, because they're used to martial characters needing a stupendously high BAB and a d10 or higher Hit Die. (And in the case of the psychic warrior/fighter paradigm, lots and lots of feats.) They also see more MAD, since psychic warriors need Wisdom as their key manifesting ability.

Psychic warriors have the following class abilities: 2 skill points/lvl (and a decent skill list, though not having Psicraft is a grave oversight), Medium BAB, d8 HD, good Fort save progression ("shouldn't they get good Will saves?"), light/medium/heavy armor and shields (but not tower shields), all simple and martial weapons, one power known per level, one bonus feat at level 1 and one at 2 and every 3 levels thereafter (which can be [psionic] feats, psionic item creation feats, metapsionic feats, or fighter feats - though they don't count as fighters for prerequisites), as well as the smallest power point pool in official psionics. They can also use use-activated items for the powers on their class list.

PROS:
What people don't realize is that judicious use of powers (as well as creative usage of psionic items) allows a psychic warrior to not only boost their numbers up to reasonable levels, but to completely circumvent the need to, say, target a foe's AC and HP, which is pretty much all a fighter can do. They can also spare feats for things other than direct-combat (see: Darkstalker, Able Learner, Expanded Knowledge for utility powers, and so on), because their power points give them an expansive pool of options for combat already.

Psychic warriors are strictly superior to fighters where fighters tend to shine the most:

The expansion power alone grants a Medium sized psywar the ability to emulate the benefits of several feats (avoiding AoOs with reach weapons), including charging, grappling, disarming, sundering, bull rushing, and tripping (sans followup attack). And best of all, the bonuses gained stack with the actual feats.

Two-handed fighting benefits from Strength-enhancing powers (such as strength of my enemy), as well as from the ability to full attack on a charge (via psionic lion's charge); no need to make a barbarian dip or use Alternative Class Features here!

Two-weapon fighting can be simulated better than the real thing using psionically-obtained natural weapons and the powers that enhance them (bite of the wolf, claws of the beast, metamorphosis, form of doom, and the Illithid Grapple feat in Complete Psionic, for a whole slew of natural attacks, if you want them): A.) Natural weaponry doesn't require the gross expense that investing in two manufactured weapons do, meaning you can get more effective WBL as a result. B.) They don't require a long string of feats or prerequisites (they don't, in fact, need a single feat to work ever, though the Multiattack feat is recommended). C.) They can gain bonus damage through other powers and psionic-specific options, which is pretty much a requirement if you want to do TWFing (not to mention that Power Attack works just fine with secondary weapons). D.) You aren't screwed over by the inability to move and full attack in the same round, thanks to powers like hustle and psionic lion's charge. E.) You aren't restricted by your BAB in making natural attacks, and you also don't have the diminishing rate of returns on iterative attacks. F.) You can make a full-attack with a manufactured weapon, AND make secondary natural attacks; and yes, you can add those on to the TWF line of feats, if you REALLY want to, for a ludicrous number of attacks each round.

While archery isn't generally considered the psychic warrior's schtick (as their powers are geared more toward melee combat), they do gain nearly as many bonus feats as a fighter does which can be used for archery, and many powers can be adapted for use with a bow even without a creative interpretation. While a higher BAB would be useful, a psychic warrior is fully capable of dishing out lots of damage even without it (Manyshot, Greater Psionic Shot, Fell Shot, Power Shot, and a deep crystal bow can rack up the d6s really quickly on every attack, and powers such as strength of my enemy and weapon of energy allow you to lay on the hurt even more). They also make great use of the Zen Archery feat, for Wis to ranged attacks.

Psychic warriors also make incredible mounted combatants, especially once they gain access to metamorphosis through either research or the Expanded Knowledge feat. Grab psionic lion's charge, Ride-By Attack and Spirited Charge, TWF, a psicrystal, and a pair of lances, and watch your enemies die...quickly. Consider the fact that psicrystals gain their Granted Abilities even when shapeshifted to other forms, and you get a 7-headed hydra with power resistance, natural armor boosts, near-blindsight, the ability to fly, [your manifester level x 10] temporary hit points (see vigor + share pain), and all of the other buffs you care to share with it.

Psychic warriors also have abilities that let them shine where fighters fail:

Numerous powers that psywars have access to (one way or another) grant options for doing stuff in combat other than "I hit their AC to drop their HP," which is ~90% of all a fighter can do. They have indirect access to all of the psion and discipline powers of 6th level and below, and have some goodies on their list, as well.

They also have movement options that fighters don't; they can access powers that grant them teleportation, flight, swim speeds, burrowing, and are considerably more mobile in sheer quantity due to hustle and access to the Speed of thought, Psionic Charge, and Up the Walls feats. As well as the added tactical abilities granted by being able to take a move action AND a full-round action in the same turn.

Many feats and powers (not to mention skills) a psychic warrior has access to gives him things to do outside of combat, if he's creative. Psionic minor creation and the Psicrystal Affinity feat alone can be used in virtually any situation, given some thought.

They can cover for their weaknesses, allowing their strengths to blossom even more. It doesn't matter if a psychic warrior has a smaller Con and Dex than an equivalent fighter; he can buff up his HP using Psionic Body, vigor and share pain (see: psicrystal), and can increase his saves using defensive precognition, if he so chooses (not to mention that he has the ability to buff his ability scores directly). He can also utilize strategies that a fighter can't in order to capitalize on his strengths and minimize his weaknesses (such as using psionic minor creation to poison enemies, rendering his low Str a non-issue).

Also, they don't need as many high-priced items just to function well (they don't NEED high-priced weapons and an item that lets them fly and an item that protects them from solid fogs and an item that protects them from mind-altering drugs abilities to function; they can simply take an appropriate power). This gives them considerably more inherent flexibility than most fighter-types are capable of. Not to mention that they're fully able to make their own stuff.

Oh, and they can get access to both psychic reformation and psionic contingency, which allows them to change their entire build on-the-fly.

CONS:
The psychic warrior class only has three real weaknesses, all of which can be overcome by an astute and intelligent player.

1.) Psywars get very few power points, and so every point is precious. However, there are items and feats that can lower the pp output for various manifestations, strategies to help you use pp efficiently, items and feats that grant additional pp, and strategies that can allow you to refill your power point pool. You just have to know where to find them and how to use them.

2.) Psychic warriors tend to rely on buffing to make them useful, which means that unless you know what you're doing you spend several rounds buffing up, and less in actual combat. The Linked Power feat from CPsi goes a long way toward minimizing combat rounds spent buffing, as does Quicken Power (pp-intensive! eww!), and the schism power. You can also make strategic decisions that cut down on this aspect, such as grabbing a reach weapon and a spiked gauntlet, the Combat Reflexes feat, and expansion, manifesting the latter and then moving into position so any enemies that move are subject to being stabbed to death. There are several ways to minimize the pain caused by this particular weakness.

3.) Their base chassis does require some effort to bolster, which means you have to figure out how you're going to work around your BAB, HD, and saves. Luckily, the powers and feats a psychic warrior gets can do so handily, and a prepared player can get around them without much of a problem. Wisdom also bolsters their bad Will saves, so while they aren't indominatable they're certainly better than their fighter cousins (and can get mind blank to boot!)

And there you have it.
: Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3.
: Negative Zero July 02, 2009, 09:03:48 PM
I still think Dread Necromancer has no reason to be Tier 3. We are still talking about class that can easily create an infinite army and gets Planar blinding at an appropriate spell level. They still get a decent BAB, infinite healing, free paralysis via their familiar, a load of cool advanced learnings and whatnot. Nevertheless, Planar binding alone makes them Tier 2.

Magic Circle Against ____ is not on the Dread Necromancer spell list.
: Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3.
: Gr1lledcheese July 02, 2009, 11:05:17 PM
Added Lycanthromancer's Psychic Warrior description, SorO_Lost's description of the Warblade, and Ninjarabbit's description of the Duskblade.

Boy am I glad to be out of tier 4 and 5 classes.  :D
: Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3.
: Lycanthromancer July 02, 2009, 11:15:27 PM
[edited out]
: Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3.
: Samb July 02, 2009, 11:17:23 PM
Lycanthomancer covered it pretty well.  The psywar is one of the most balanced base classes in the game and one of my personal favorites.  It has no weak level and can be effective in any level range.  Its shortcoming can be overcome with a smart selection of powers, and it can often out perform fighters and barbarians with ease, in the hands of a true min/maxer you will get monstrosities like King of Smack (70d6 of damage while healing yourself for 35d6!!!)

More pros:
The greatest assets of a psywar is the fact that you can do so much while still (full) attacking.  Strength of my enemy and vampire weapon/claw allow you to attack, debuff and heal at the same time.  Hustle will give you one extra move action that you can regain focus (assuming you took psionic meditation), psionic lion's charge not only allows for a full attack after a charge attack but greatly improved damage as well.  And psicrystal with metamorphosis basically doubles your actions in one turn.

The bonus feats are also very expansive which allows for selection if feats like EK: schism which of course increases your actions per round yet again.  Get a boots of temp accel and you will have all the time in the world to buff up.

Just to elaborate on how a psywar kicks the crap out of its non-psionic contemporaries: PLC was mentioned already, but up the walls will fulfill all the requirements for a charge and leap attack so you can now "charge leap attack" at point blank range.  Combining deep impact, max power attack, PLC and leap attack and you are looking at some hefty damage.  It was mentioned that things die quickly with psywar right?


More cons (and how to overcome them):
Lycanthomancers hit the major ones but I'll elaborate some more.  

d8 HP: easy to overcome with the old vigor-share pain-psicrystal affinity combo.  Once you get schism you basically "regenerate" vigor every turn.

low PP pool: I think lycanthomancer was referring to earth power to lower costs.  I personally think this feat sucks since you can't use your psionic focus which you need for feats like, up the walls, speed of though, deep impact and linked power.  The better way to do it is to get more WIS, which will increase your PP AND the DC on your powers.  WIS boosting items should not be hard to come, at least no where near as rare as a torc.

3/4 BAB: Deep impact is my favorite way to deal with this, but powers like offensive precog and metaphysical weapon more than make up for the lose in accuracy and scales with full BAB progression.  By 4th level you can use offensive precog to get +2 on attack rolls, which is a total of +5 on attack rolls, as opposed to the +4 a fighter gets.  If psywar ever got full BAB they should be banned.

Poor reflex save: I'm at a lose as to what to do with this other than using defensive precog, items (skin of the hero), or feats.  Not too many reflex save or die/sucks, or my DM has been very kind to me.

Lack of skill:  a mere two points of skill per level that will all be going into concentration....... INT is more or less a dump stat for psywars too.  If you are going for ubercharger then the other point goes to jump.  Mighty spring (the power) might help a bit.

low level powers:  Only can get up to 6th level powers.  This really blows and other than going epic not much to be done.  The greatest lose is not being able to pick up temp accel with EK since you can only take 5th level powers at psywar 20.  One way that I can think of is to take a mantled variant, then pick tap mantle: time and then use a power stone with temp accel on it (can be done with any 6-9 power in a mantle really).  This is the only reason I consider wilders to be more fun to play than psywar.
: Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3.
: The_Mad_Linguist July 02, 2009, 11:21:58 PM
I still think Dread Necromancer has no reason to be Tier 3. We are still talking about class that can easily create an infinite army and gets Planar blinding at an appropriate spell level. They still get a decent BAB, infinite healing, free paralysis via their familiar, a load of cool advanced learnings and whatnot. Nevertheless, Planar binding alone makes them Tier 2.

Magic Circle Against ____ is not on the Dread Necromancer spell list.
I always assumed that was what their 3rd level death ward was supposed to be (they get at 3rd and 4th... clearly there's a typo somewhere, and magic circle against good is the obvious gap in their list.
: Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3.
: JaronK July 02, 2009, 11:31:16 PM
I still think Dread Necromancer has no reason to be Tier 3. We are still talking about class that can easily create an infinite army and gets Planar blinding at an appropriate spell level. They still get a decent BAB, infinite healing, free paralysis via their familiar, a load of cool advanced learnings and whatnot. Nevertheless, Planar binding alone makes them Tier 2.

I'm playing a Dread Necromancer right now, and I can assure you Planar Binding is FAR weaker on them than a Sorcerer or Wizard.  Without magic circle, a Dread Necromancer has to kill and reanimate anyone they bind... they can't just use services or anything.  And that can be a little hard to do.  Once that's complete, they can only reanimate them as a Skeleton or Zombie if they want gaurenteed control, which is hardly impressive.  If they want to control the creature, they could use Create Undead to make a Bone Creature... but it's DM fiat as to which version of Create Undead they need to use to get such a critter.  And now they have to rebuke the creature... which is difficult if they don't have the items they need to make that work (Lyre of the Restful Soul, Rod of Defiance).  And by the time they can actually make all this work, we're already in very high levels where the Sorcerer is about to start Shapechanging, usually.

So yeah, on paper it's great, but the DN version of Planar Binding isn't anywhere near the Wizard/Sorcerer version.  I know... I'm using it in a game right now! 

JaronK
: Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3.
: Gr1lledcheese July 03, 2009, 04:43:59 AM
Holy Mother of Screw Ups Batman!

Allright, I fixed my Psychic warrior section. I noticed that I accidently pasted a portion twice, and also labeled the class as Psionic Warrior, I must have been distracted  :embarrassed

Also added Samb's PsyWar description and JaronK's comment about dread necromancers and planar binding to the cons section of DN.
: Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3.
: Lycanthromancer July 03, 2009, 05:37:28 AM
The thing about psychic warriors as opposed to wilders is that most psion/wilder powers have to be manifested at or near maximum to be effective, whereas psychic warrior powers can often be manifested at the bare minimum and still be uber-effective.

For example, a 1 pp expansion is often all that is needed, as is a 3 pp hustle. You rarely (if ever) have to spend more than just that. For wilders, however, there are few powers that should ever be manifested at less than maximum (unless, of course, you reach outside of the standard wilder class list, in which case this does not necessarily apply).

Thus, psywars can generally get away with minimal manifesting (and 6th level powers can be REALLY powerful if used correctly - not to mention that they can still be augmented to be the equivalent of a 9th level power, regardless of the power's original level)...
: Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3.
: Runestar July 03, 2009, 06:50:35 AM
My personal take on the swordsage. As usual, don't hesitate to shoot down anything you disagree with.  :)

IMO, the swordsage is probably the most well-balanced of the 3 martial classes (which also means that it is the weakest).

For a melee class, the swordsage seems to be an anomaly in that it gets only a d8, 3/4 bab, light armour, no shield and has good reflex/will saves but poor fort saves. With a noticeable lack of ranged capabilities, you are clearly expected to wade into melee, but none of your class features seemed geared towards helping you survive a retributive full attack from the enemy. So you likely need to play your swordsage more conservatively, having him skulk around the sidelines, moving in to strike only when the foe is preoccupied with a more imminent threat like the party barb or warblade. And even then, you better have a good way of retreating in case things get ugly. Better get a flight speed + flyby attack, or try to simulate spring attack somehow (eg: move, strike, use quicksilver motion/shadow blink to move away as swift action).

It appears to suffer from MAD. You are limited to light armour + no shield, so you will likely want to maintain a high dex score to boost your AC. Wis as well, since you add it to your AC, and it improves a variety of features, such as the save DCs of your maneuvers and the bonus damage from insightful strike. It has a fairly good skill list, so it is very tempting to invest in 12 int minimum to ensure you have sufficient skills. As with any class, a decent con is mandatory for sufficient hp. In addition, unless you wield a finessable weapon, you will likely want a good str score as well to boost your attack rolls. Cha remains a dump stat, but that is scant consolation for the fact that the class still leaves you with incentive to want to boost the other 5.

The swordsage gets the most number of maneuvers known and readied. But this is a mixed blessing, since you cannot ready any maneuver more than once, so you are typically left with 1 of 2 options - either maintain a good mix of strikes, counters and boosts (which means that you cannot really excel in any one aspect), or fill your excess slots with suboptimal maneuvers after choosing the choice ones.

He is also hampered by a very inefficient recharge mechanic (though to be fair, it can be mitigated with a single feat - adaptive style). I say "mitigated" rather than "solved" because spending one full round doing nothing to get all your maneuvers back is still quite a steep cost (though the upside is that you can also swap in useful maneuvers in place of less useful ones).

One full round just to get back 1 maneuver. Given the average length of a typical encounter, don't bother. You are "encouraged" to ration and use them sparingly, to ensure that you have enough to see you through the entire fight (which ties back to my earlier point about filling excess slots with subpar maneuvers). Contrast this with a warblade, who can easily alternate between spamming his best maneuvers and full-attacking (as part of refreshing), or a crusader who automatically refreshes his maneuvers every 3 rounds.

The array of disciplines don't seem all that stellar either. Desert wind and shadow hand are fairly weak, and it seems quite difficult to base a character build around them (a number of builds I see tend to revolve around specializing in diamond mind/tiger claw, while splashing in desert wind/shadow hand. No experience with setting sun.

3/4 bab isn't necessarily as bad as it seems. Standard action strikes mean that you are making 1 attack each round at your highest attack roll, so you should still be able to hit fairly consistently. But you can't really afford to power attack, since you will unlikely have excess bab to "burn".

With so many flaws, you are likely wondering "Where are the good points"? Well, they would be the maneuvers! They let you be everything a fighter fails at, by allowing you more options, all the better to tackle the various challenges thrown your way by the DM.

Your crappiest save assaulted by a save-or-die ability of impossibly high DC? It is the appropriate diamond mind save booster (moment of precise mind/mind over body/action before thought) to the rescue (and action before thought complements evasion quite nicely).

Mobility hampered by difficult terrain? Teleport (shadow blink) or ignore it (setting sun 1st lv stance).

Mobile foes giving you fits by constantly moving, thus denying you the full attack? Strike maneuvers let you move and still be able to deal respectable damage (and since the bonus damage is usually independent of the weapon you wield, you can still lay out the hurt even if you are armed with a puny dagger instead of a greatsword, since its damage dice comprises only a small portion of the total damage dealt). Sometimes, you want to do more than just damage. There are quite a few maneuvers which rider-effects that allow you to debuff a foe in a variety of ways (such as negative lvs, restricting their movement or preventing them from full-attacking).

And thanks to martial study, you can also access cross-class maneuvers. Hit by a pesky status effect like wave of exhaustion? Remove it with iron heart surge. Only problem is that the swordsage does not really get that many feats, and quite a few will probably be tied up in the form of adaptive style, weapon finesse and possibly shadow blade (which also has the drawback of locking you in a shadow hand stance), so again, you only have so many feats to play around with.

Simply put, maneuvers help make melee fun again, and this is no exception even for the swordsage.

I would rate it as a tad inferior to the warblade (or in the very least, it would be more more tricky to play effectively), but the sheer utility of maneuvers more than suffices in letting it stay in the tier3 range.
: Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3.
: Braithwaite July 03, 2009, 12:00:51 PM
Swordsage Pros comment:

As was noted for many of the lower tier classes, and as is always true for ToB classes, Swordsage makes a handy 1 or 2 level dip. If you are a caster and only expect to swing a weapon if cornered or for a few rounds every combat after you have finished your party buffs or battlefield control, the crummy recharge mechanic won't hurt you. Likewise, if you are a meleer and plan on doing mostly full attacks except for the few rounds when you are moving or otherwise prevented, the recharge mechanic isn't a problem.

For Wisdom using classes, the Swordsage Wisdom to AC in light armor is much better than the similar Monk/Ninja ability. Even a simple chain shirt with the +4 from an 18 wisdom comes out the same as plate mail, and a high level Swordsage with a magic mithral breastplate and high wisdom is likely to have the highest AC in the party, as well as a good touch AC. Unfortunately, boosting AC is usually not as effective as other build strategies, but if you decide that you want to build a high AC character, Swordsage + any wisdom based full casting class will probably outperform lower tier classes more typically thought of as "tanks", like Knight, Paladin, or sword & shield Fighter.
: Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3.
: Samb July 03, 2009, 12:41:17 PM
The thing about psychic warriors as opposed to wilders is that most psion/wilder powers have to be manifested at or near maximum to be effective, whereas psychic warrior powers can often be manifested at the bare minimum and still be uber-effective.

For example, a 1 pp expansion is often all that is needed, as is a 3 pp hustle. You rarely (if ever) have to spend more than just that. For wilders, however, there are few powers that should ever be manifested at less than maximum (unless, of course, you reach outside of the standard wilder class list, in which case this does not necessarily apply).

Thus, psywars can generally get away with minimal manifesting (and 6th level powers can be REALLY powerful if used correctly - not to mention that they can still be augmented to be the equivalent of a 9th level power, regardless of the power's original level)...
While you do have a point, it still doesn't change the fact you cannot gain access to powers 6-9th powers.  Powers that could really boost psywar are temp accel, fission, greater metamorphosis, energy conversation.  In a one on one fight a psion or wilder 20 will would have had used temp accel to gain 4 extra turns as opposed to psywar's boot leg 1 extra turn.  Form of doom might be nice, but greater metamorphosis is twice as nice, which a wilder can get with shifter sub level.  At higher levels not being able to use higher level powers is really glaring.  I don't want you to think that I dislike psywar or that it should be tier 4 because of this, but it is a balancing factor for them, one that really does make a difference and that cannot be overcome.
: Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3.
: Braithwaite July 03, 2009, 12:43:19 PM
Beguiler

Pros
Beguiler is probably the most flexible of the three "specialist Sorcerers", the other two being Dread Necromancer and Warmage.

For an arcane caster, the beguiler is reasonably hardy. Light armor is roughly equal to a sorcerer's Mage Armor, without taking up a spell slot. Weapon proficiencies similar to a rogue and d6 hit points per level mean that at low level the Beguiler can be marginally better in combat than a wizard.

The beguiler is a top of the line skill monkey. They really have more than 6 skill points per level, because Int is their casting stat, and they are almost obliged to keep it as high as possible anyway. They have trapfinding. If they decide to ignore parts of their excellent skill list, they can cover the gaps with their flexible spell list. For example, a beguiler with low hide can replace it with invisibility or silent image, or a beguiler with bad social skills can recover with charms, Suggestion, or Dominate. Use Magic Device can be used to mask some of their weaknesses.

The beguiler is a full caster. They automatically know every spell on their spell list, and their spell list can be widened by a number of feats, prestige classes, and the advanced learning class feature. At each spell level their list includes a number of excellent spells. They get some free metamagic feats and their cloaked casting ability helps them overcome enemy defenses when casting on opponents who are denied their dex bonuses.

The beguiler is capable of doing one thing quite well. It is excellent at neutralizing opponents with charms and illusions. When that is inappropriate, it can still contribute with Trapfinding, Use Magic Device, or a handful of buff spells.

Cons
A Beguiler, like a rogue, is very vulnerable to certain types of enemies unless they can cover their gaps with specialized magical items. Mindless creatures, those immune to Enchantments or Illusions, creatures with blindsight, true seeing, high SR, or even a high will save can be tough for Beguilers to beat.

Illusions and Enchantments derive much of their power from the creativity of the player and the cooperation of the DM. A player who just wants to blast his enemies will not do well with a beguiler. A DM whose NPC's always attempt to subvert commands and who are all paranoid of illusions can cripple a Beguiler.

While the Beguiler knows more spells than a sorcerer, and is absolutely better than a Sorcerer who takes only Enchantment and Illusion spells, it lacks the versatility of Sorcerers or Wizards to have the right tool on hand for every situation.

While superior in mundane combat to low level sorcerers and wizards, the beguiler is still one of the weakest combatants in the game, and the Surprise Casting class feature is almost a trap to lure unsuspecting players near their enemies where they can be crushed.

: Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3.
: Gr1lledcheese July 03, 2009, 01:23:54 PM
Added: Runestar's take on the Swordsage, Braithwaite's comments about swordsage pros and Braithwaite's description of the beguiler.
: Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3.
: Alastar July 03, 2009, 01:32:03 PM
While not posting any pros and cons here, I'd like to point out something.

Being a tier 3 is NOTHING to be ashamed of.  Tier 3 are the herald's of destruction, they can do humongously more damage in battle than tier 1 and 2 characters and are still immensely useful out of combat.  Simply put, if you're a least bit intelligent, you won't be bored playing a tier 3 character.

But you're not tier 2.  Or tier 1.

Tier 1 characters can BREAK THE GAME, litterally, all of them, that's why they are gods, that's why we are wary of the power we wield when we use them.

Tier 2 characters can BREAK THE GAME, just a tad less obviously, or in a more limited way.   

So anyone who feels insulted their class is ''only tier 3''  when they play one in game, DON'T BE!  It's still incredibly good.  Heck, i played a game with 3 tier 1 and a tier 3, and the tier 3 was always useful in battle.  Eventually, it got so easy it was boring!!!  We had to tangle with actual GODS at level 21 just to keep it challenging!
: Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3.
: BowenSilverclaw July 03, 2009, 04:10:14 PM
While not posting any pros and cons here, I'd like to point out something.

Being a tier 3 is NOTHING to be ashamed of.  Tier 3 are the herald's of destruction, they can do humongously more damage in battle than tier 1 and 2 characters and are still immensely useful out of combat.  Simply put, if you're a least bit intelligent, you won't be bored playing a tier 3 character.

But you're not tier 2.  Or tier 1.

Tier 1 characters can BREAK THE GAME, litterally, all of them, that's why they are gods, that's why we are wary of the power we wield when we use them.

Tier 2 characters can BREAK THE GAME, just a tad less obviously, or in a more limited way.  

So anyone who feels insulted their class is ''only tier 3''  when they play one in game, DON'T BE!  It's still incredibly good.  Heck, i played a game with 3 tier 1 and a tier 3, and the tier 3 was always useful in battle.  Eventually, it got so easy it was boring!!!  We had to tangle with actual GODS at level 21 just to keep it challenging!
Don't forget the PCs in your Thorny Trail game :)
: Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3.
: Samb July 03, 2009, 06:35:11 PM
Tier 3 is considered the "best" tier.  Just read JaronK's original thread.
: Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3.
: Lycanthromancer July 03, 2009, 07:09:52 PM
I do like me some tier 2, though. I just loves me some WWoMD (Walking Weapons of Mass Destruction).

Which is why I'm okay with the psychic warrior; my op-fu is good enough to make them tier 2 if I want to.
: Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3.
: ninjarabbit July 03, 2009, 07:16:17 PM
Wildshape variant ranger:

The wildshape ranger trades his combat style feats for fast movement (as a barbarian) and wildshape (as a druid, small and medium animals only). This is generally considered a step up from the normal ranger.


Cons: The wildshape ranger is pretty much a liability before level 5, assuming str and dex were dumped. He's limited to small and medium animals when wildshaping, limiting combat option when compared to the druid. Also since you aren't going to get any more wildshape forms after level 5, it severely limits the incentive to keep taking ranger levels. The wildshape ranger still has the sucky animal companion.


Pros: The wildshape ranger is able to dump his str and dex scores, getting rid of the MAD that rangers normally have. Wildshaping creates much more flexibility in combat: pouncing as a leopard, tripping as a riding dog, grappling as a black bear, constrictor snake, or crocodile, weapons and armor as a baboon, and more. He still gets the normal ranger goodies like 2 bonus feats, spellcasting, 6 skill points/level, and evasion. The wildshape ranger can qualify for PrCs like Master of Many Forms and Warshaper.
: Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3.
: Generic_PC July 03, 2009, 07:21:16 PM
@Lycanthromancer: You'll notice that it takes little to optimize Beguilers or Dread Necromancers up to Tier 2, especially if you have a slightly more liberal DM.
: Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3.
: The_Mad_Linguist July 03, 2009, 07:27:27 PM
While not posting any pros and cons here, I'd like to point out something.

Being a tier 3 is NOTHING to be ashamed of. 

Basically, an optimized open splatbook tier 3 can compare favorably against a core only optimized tier 1.  

Certainly a necropolitan human dread necromancer2/Rainbow Servant 10/Mage of the Arcane Order 7/Sand Shaper 1 is greater than or equal to a wizard/archmage in terms of raw magical power, since he has 96% of all core spells in his repertoire, and more slots for them.  


But, yeah, tier 3 is the one you want to balance classes against.  You can do neat things without being paralyzed by indecision.
: Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3.
: Samb July 03, 2009, 07:51:19 PM
@Lycanthromancer: You'll notice that it takes little to optimize Beguilers or Dread Necromancers up to Tier 2, especially if you have a slightly more liberal DM.
Are you implying that psywar is harder to optimize?  With a leinant GM anything is possible.


Anyway Lycan I was thinking about psywar's problem with higher level powers and maybe psychic chiurgery can deal with it?  SRD specifically states that they can "manifest any power that has a power point cost equal to or lower than his manifester level."  So they might not be able to pick the power, but they can have it "installed".  You will need a telepath or cognition thief that can manifest chierguery and the powers you want for this to work but the possibilities are amazing.

Needless to say, this can apply to any manifesting class.
: Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3.
: Generic_PC July 03, 2009, 08:09:26 PM
No, I wasn't saying that at all. But with DMs which allow some tricks, most of tier 3 can be optimized to tier 2. It's just like how Barbarians can become chargers and, with access to a couple books, be doing enough damage to match the ToB classes.
: Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3.
: Lycanthromancer July 03, 2009, 09:16:18 PM
Anyway Lycan I was thinking about psywar's problem with higher level powers and maybe psychic chiurgery can deal with it?  SRD specifically states that they can "manifest any power that has a power point cost equal to or lower than his manifester level."  So they might not be able to pick the power, but they can have it "installed".  You will need a telepath or cognition thief that can manifest chierguery and the powers you want for this to work but the possibilities are amazing.

Needless to say, this can apply to any manifesting class.

SRD20.org says: "If desired, you can use this power to directly transfer knowledge of a power you know to another psionic character. You can give a character knowledge of a power of any level that she can manifest, even if the power is not normally on the character’s power list. Knowledge of powers gained through psychic chirurgery does not count toward the maximum number of powers a character can know per level."

Good idea, but it doesn't work.

However, a psychic warrior can go with the mantled psywar ACF, and then he can use trigger-items of higher level powers (see: sticks and stones).

Also: UPD. (You can get massive bonuses to any skill you want with the right feats, and you can UPD powers from other classes easily enough.

But still, you can get metamorphosis on your power list, and that's considerably more powerful than some level 7 powers, so...)
: Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3.
: dark_samuari July 03, 2009, 09:25:45 PM
However, a psychic warrior can go with the mantled psywar ACF, and then he can use trigger-items of higher level powers (see: sticks and stones).

And that ACF can become really powerful you allow the modification of a mantle as in accordance with the Ardent ACF.
: Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3.
: Samb July 03, 2009, 09:38:13 PM

SRD20.org says: "If desired, you can use this power to directly transfer knowledge of a power you know to another psionic character. You can give a character knowledge of a power of any level that she can manifest, even if the power is not normally on the character’s power list. Knowledge of powers gained through psychic chirurgery does not count toward the maximum number of powers a character can know per level."

Good idea, but it doesn't work.

However, a psychic warrior can go with the mantled psywar ACF, and then he can use trigger-items of higher level powers (see: sticks and stones).

Also: UPD. (You can get massive bonuses to any skill you want with the right feats, and you can UPD powers from other classes easily enough.

But still, you can get metamorphosis on your power list, and that's considerably more powerful than some level 7 powers, so...)

SRD states that a psywar can "manifest any power that has a power point cost equal to or lower than his manifester level."  So at level 17 he could use level 9 powers.  I don't see the conflict.  Either way, temp accel could be used since it is only a 6th level power.  A psywar with fission=win.
: Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3.
: Lycanthromancer July 03, 2009, 09:42:37 PM
I c wat u did thar.

Does that mean a 13th level psychic warrior can take Expanded Knowledge for 6th level powers, despite not getting them normally until much later?
: Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3.
: Samb July 03, 2009, 09:59:36 PM
At level 20 you can only pick level 5 powers with EK and at psywar13 you can only pick 4th level powers.  In fact you cannot even take 6th powers not on psywar list when you go epic since there are no 7th level powers to speak of.  You might be able to use epic EK to get it, but before that I think psychic chiuergy might be the only way.
: Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3.
: Lycanthromancer July 03, 2009, 10:02:25 PM
At level 20 you can only pick level 5 powers with EK and at psywar13 you can only pick 4th level powers.  In fact you cannot even take 6th powers not on psywar list when you go epic since there are no 7th level powers to speak of.  You might be able to use epic EK to get it, but before that I think psychic chiuergy might be the only way.

Why not? It uses the same wording as what I quoted.
: Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3.
: Samb July 03, 2009, 11:50:17 PM


Why not? It uses the same wording as what I quoted.

Benefit
Add to your powers known one additional power of any level up to one level lower than the highest-level power you can manifest. You can choose any power, including powers from another discipline’s list or even from another class’s list.
I can see where you are coming from the problem is what does "can manifest mean"?  Is it "can potentially manifest" or "can manifest at this time"?

If it was the former then you could take a 6th level power at 14 and manifest it.  If it is the latter then you can't pick it at all unless you have a level 7 power in your power list already.  If it is the former then psywar just got a huge bump in quality powers and are now only limited by 9th powers.
: Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3.
: JaronK July 04, 2009, 12:21:36 AM
Tier 3 is considered the "best" tier.  Just read JaronK's original thread.

Not exactly, Tier 3 is the one I think is best... because it fits my playstyle and is the power level I like best.  That doesn't make it best for everyone.  I fully understand people who prefer other tiers.  Heck, I'm doing an all Tier 6 game right now, and it's a heck of a lot of fun (mostly commoners).  And we're just starting up a game where most folks are heavily optimized Tier 1-3, but intentionally playing stupid (we're kick in the door righteous paladins, basically... but using Cleric/PrC Paladins). 

JaronK
: Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3.
: Endarire July 04, 2009, 01:51:09 AM
The best tier is what works for your group.  In a cooperative game where teammates care about one another, the tier 1 casters who play their mental stats should realize making the job easier for the lower tier martial characters tends to win fights sooner.
: Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3.
: Generic_PC July 04, 2009, 02:08:20 AM
There are other groups that have mostly irrelevant tier systems, or distorted tiers, because of how they play. When you have a DM that doesn't rely on rolls for diplomacy, and the campaign centers around intrigue and such, the main encounters are all about the players roleplay skill, and characters become mostly irrelevant.
: Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3.
: The_Mad_Linguist July 04, 2009, 02:16:13 AM
Or if, just to give a hypothetical example, your campaign world has large spires, around which magic use is possible, but farther away from which there are greater and greater caster level penalties, making it all but impossible to cast spells, then the magic-reliant tier 1 and 2 become somewhat less impressive.
: Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3.
: Generic_PC July 04, 2009, 02:25:40 AM
Actually, the game I'm playing now requires Spellcraft checks to cast any spell. It makes ToB really nice.
: Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3.
: JaronK July 04, 2009, 04:11:07 AM
Actually, the game I'm playing now requires Spellcraft checks to cast any spell. It makes ToB really nice.

I'm assuming Item Familiar isn't allowed in that game.

JaronK
: Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3.
: ErhnamDJ July 04, 2009, 04:13:28 AM
When you have a DM that doesn't rely on rolls for diplomacy, and the campaign centers around intrigue and such, the main encounters are all about the players roleplay skill, and characters become mostly irrelevant.

I'd say doing this makes the magic even more powerful. What can a wizard do in this situation? How many hundreds of different ways to gather information does he have? How many ways to influence people with his spells? Compared to a paladin who just has the now-useless Diplomacy skill? Seems like pulling a big piece of taffy, with each end being a tier. The classes only get farther apart.
: Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3.
: juton July 04, 2009, 10:02:31 AM
When you have a DM that doesn't rely on rolls for diplomacy, and the campaign centers around intrigue and such, the main encounters are all about the players roleplay skill, and characters become mostly irrelevant.

I'd say doing this makes the magic even more powerful. What can a wizard do in this situation? How many hundreds of different ways to gather information does he have? How many ways to influence people with his spells? Compared to a paladin who just has the now-useless Diplomacy skill? Seems like pulling a big piece of taffy, with each end being a tier. The classes only get farther apart.

My experience is that in campaigns like this magic is limited in such a way that everything falls back to RP. The difference is how the DM does this, poorly (by naked fiat) or well (the NPCs have defenses, like Mage's Private Sanctum up). Every class can participate in an intrigue campaign, maybe not equally but on a more equal footing.
: Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3.
: Gr1lledcheese July 04, 2009, 12:20:51 PM
Added: Wildshape Variant Ranger, by Ninjarabbit.
: Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3.
: Sinfire Titan July 04, 2009, 01:18:10 PM
Factotum

[spoiler]There's a reason this class is considered a better skill monkey than the Rogue.
Cons: Low IP means anyone not using the Font of Inspiration feat is going to fall behind fast. And they get about 5 to 7 spells/day, and only up to 7th level spells. And their metamagic option is rather weak.


Pros: 7th level SLAs, and up to 5 or 6 6th level spells/day (at the cost of lower level spells). Int to damn near everything in the book. Extra actions/round. Int to AC constantly (that stacks!) at mid-levels. Able to emulate any EX class feature below 15th level from any base class (arguably the most redeeming quality of Factotum 20). Every skill as a class skill. Access to the Sor/Wis list without UMD or PrCs. The list may be short, but it is devastating. There's a reason to take the class over Rogue.[/spoiler]


Crusader

[spoiler]Opening up with the fact that this tank base class has the highest HP this side of a raging Barbarian (AKA, the side you want to be on), this class is a reasonably powerful cannon. It has some serious potential.

Cons: *Sigh*, Steely Resolve applies to pretty much 1 attack/round at the early-mid levels due to low absorption factor. No control over maneuvers granted makes combat unpredictable when you expand their options with PrCs. No control over the recovery mechanic means you can lose some options to the action economy. Only a d10 HD, when it should have had a d12 (seriously, this class is the most deserving of a d12 HD). Most limited access to the 9 disciplines.

Pros: Furious Counterstrike. Cha to Will saves. Access to 2 of the most powerful styles in the game (and Stone Dragon). Able to heal themselves reliably well. Full BAB. A recovery mechanic independent of the action economy (this would be 2nd only to the Warblade). Basically, if you want a tank this is the class to look into. Practically the easiest to optimize (2 feats, tops), its perfect to beginners.[/spoiler]
: Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3.
: The_Mad_Linguist July 04, 2009, 01:43:43 PM
You forgot one thing that the factotum has going for it.

Extra.  Standard.  Actions.


ED:  :facepalm
: Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3.
: Sinfire Titan July 04, 2009, 01:46:19 PM
You forgot one thing that the factotum has going for it.

Extra.  Standard.  Actions.

No I didn't:

Pros: 7th level SLAs, and up to 5 or 6 6th level spells/day (at the cost of lower level spells). Int to damn near everything in the book. Extra actions/round. Int to AC constantly (that stacks!) at mid-levels. Able to emulate any EX class feature below 15th level from any base class (arguably the most redeeming quality of Factotum 20). Every skill as a class skill. Access to the Sor/Wis list without UMD or PrCs. The list may be short, but it is devastating. There's a reason to take the class over Rogue.
: Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3.
: Keldar July 04, 2009, 02:19:09 PM
Crusader

[spoiler]Opening up with the fact that this tank base class has the highest HP this side of a raging Barbarian (AKA, the side you want to be on), this class is a reasonably powerful cannon. It has some serious potential.

Cons: *Sigh*, Steely Resolve applies to pretty much 1 attack/round at the early-mid levels due to low absorption factor. No control over maneuvers granted makes combat unpredictable when you expand their options with PrCs. No control over the recovery mechanic means you can lose some options to the action economy. Only a d10 HD, when it should have had a d12 (seriously, this class is the most deserving of a d12 HD). Most limited access to the 9 disciplines.

Pros: Furious Counterstrike. Cha to Will saves. Access to 2 of the most powerful styles in the game (and Stone Dragon). Able to heal themselves reliably well. Full BAB. A recovery mechanic independent of the action economy (this would be 2nd only to the Warblade). Basically, if you want a tank this is the class to look into. Practically the easiest to optimize (2 feats, tops), its perfect to beginners.[/spoiler]
I'll add to Crusader:
The penultimate Tank class, only Tier 1s and 2s task built exceed it.  Even then it has a major advantage in staying power.

Cons: Highly melee focused, loosing most of its offense and defensive abilities without a foe to hit in melee.  MAD to a lesser degree than many, serviceable with just good STR and CON, it also wants for WIS and CHA to shore up will saves, and DEX to take advantage of it's AoO related abilities.  Many class abilities are pure filler.  Feat starved due to all but needing Extra Granted Manuver and the highly desirable Stone Power.

Pros:  Can last all day long.  Has the offensive and buffing abilities to make the character a threat unlike some other meat-shield oriented classes.  The Crusader can even lend some of its resilience to others when it is ignored, and is basically the only class that can make good use of in combat healing.
: Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3.
: Lycanthromancer July 04, 2009, 02:25:35 PM
Factotums do get access to Empower/Maximize/Quicken Spell-Like Ability (as well as any other SLA feats), which you can apply on-the-fly 3/day (each). They don't increase the effective level of your SLAs, and so can be used in tandem.

These are in addition to regular metamagic feats and Spontaneous Metamagic feats that you can apply as normal (since the SLAs also count as regular magic spells for that purpose).
: Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3.
: JaronK July 04, 2009, 06:19:42 PM
The following is part of an argument I was having as to which is stronger, the Rogue or the Factotum, and it sums up why the Factotum is T3 pretty nicely (though it doesn't cover everything... their "duplicate class abilities" thing is INSANE).

Here's how combat went the first time a friend of mine picked up a Factotum (never having played before). He was just released from being captured (plot point to get him into the game) and thus had absolutely no gear at all, just the mundane clothes on his back. If he was anything like a Rogue, he should have been unable to fight, but he was thrown directly into combat, and here's what he did, and note that this is an 8th level Tiefling Factotum:
 
First, he made a rediculously high Escape Artist check to get out of his bindings (he was supposed to be just waiting for us to rescue him). Then he sneaks down the hall. Coming around the corner, he saw a bad guy right in front of him at the opening to a courtyard where the rest of the party was battling. So, on his initiative (it was an ongoing battle) he gets a free standard action with his Factotum abilities and Alter Selfs into an Advespa, which he had learned about with a quick google search for "Alter Self Forms." This gives him 5 natural attacks, 7 Natural Armour, and a flight speed. Then he full attacks the bad guy in front of him, getting a little sneak attack in for good measure. Next round, as our party is cleaning up pretty good and the Sorcereress just glitterdusted the guy and an enemy near him, the guy ran, getting away around a corner... but the Factotum just used an extra standard action to get to the corner, then charged him and used sneak attack to finish him off.

Now, this is simply not something a naked Rogue does.

Now, you can call an 8th level character using Alter Self to gain natural AC and natural attacks TO, but since it was used in game, it's clearly not, nor is it even overpowered (it's still light duty Wild Shape). Yes, Wizards using Alter Self at level 3 to get +8 Natural AC for 30 minutes is overpowered. But Factotums can't do that sort of thing until 5, at which point the Druid already has Wild Shape, which is an equivalent ability at level 5 and continues to get far better, outpacing Alter Self dramatically as the levels increase

Meanwhile, there's the old Iajuitsu Focus thing. Yes, OA was updated for 3.5, and yes, Factotums have ALL skills as class skills, including Autohypnosis and IF. The ability to take extra standard actions and, when you need, add your Factotum level to your check once in a while makes this incredibly potent. You can draw a weapon (usually with the eager enchantment if you can get it, since generally speaking Factotums have a better place to spend feats) in the surprise round (gained through hiding, or casting invisibility, or whatever), partial action charge the enemy, and deal IF damage. Then, if you want, use an extra standard action to hit them again. Then, if you win initiative, use an extra standard action to sheath your weapon while you move up to another enemy, then draw it and full attack, dealing IF damage a second time (and if you want to add sneak attack damage, you could do that too). I don't know why some people don't think IF should count... that's exactly what the Factotum's forte is (using any skill he wants). And of course an item that gives Sapphire Nightmare Blade is exceptionally cheap.

And then of course there's the spellcasting. While he has few spells per day and they're way behind a Wizard, he's got four big advantages here.

First and formost, he can gain extra standard actions, and can do it a LOT if he takes the Factotum only feat that, well, he almost certainly will take. Saying that feat doesn't count because it's in a weird place is silly, since the Factotum itself is in a weird place so you're already looking through weird places, and the "weird place" is the Class Chronicals about Factotums anyway. That's not hugely weird. The result is that he can combo spells together, which can be extremely useful.

The second advantage Factotums get with spells is that unlike Wizards, they can use the entire list without needing a spellbook. That means that if a Factotum suddenly realizes he needs spell X, that's exactly what he's going to have ready for the next day... plus he doesn't have to spend tons of his wealth by level on a spellbook. This is huge in games like World's Largest Dungeon, or just games where the situation changes a lot.

And third, he can ignore SR whenever he wants, starting from level 11. Just think about that one for a second.  Consider how many spells are balanced by the fact that at least SR can stop them, and then realize that when a Factotum does it, he can ignore that.  Cast Spectral Hand and Shivering Touch in the surprise round, touch attack the dragon with it, and ignore his SR for the purpose, which would be his only defense?  Sure.  And you've even got the Factotum's advantages in sneaking up on him, just stay out of the range of his Blindsense (unless you have Darkstalker of course).

So, another way a Factotum could fight (we've been through two already, turning into a powerful combat form and using Iajuitsu Focus for damage boosting) would be to combo useful spells together. One easy example is Cloudkill with Solid Fog, making a fog of death that enemies can't escape from quickly enough. And remember, you can cast the whole combo in the surprise round if you want. Very nasty.  No one ever expects the skillmonkey to pull that move off.  And the above mentioned combination of Spectral Hand with any potent touch attack.  All this and the ability to ignore SR whenever it suits you is pretty darn incredible.

The important point is that everything I've stated here is just a Factotum with a few Fonts of Inspiration. That's it. I haven't discussed gear other than the side note about using Sapphire Nightmare Blade, or race (though the Advespi thing only works if you're an outsider... that particular character happens to be a Tiefling... but you can use other forms if you're another race). And those were just some examples of what a Factotum can do (I haven't even gone into Turn Undead or his healing abilties or his ability to ignore DR, or his ability to eventually mimic any three Ex class abilities from 15th level characters... how about 10d6 sneak attack, 10d6 sudden strike, and full flurry of blows? Or would you prefer Pounce? You know what else is Ex? A Fighter's Bonus Feats, and you probably just gained 10 of them because you just gained the bonus feats ability of a fighter of your Factotum level. Now, technically spellcasting itself is Ex, but we'll ignore that for now). I haven't gone into his defense either... the ability to simply ignore any damage that would take him to 0 or less hitpoints for 4 Inspiration Points is pretty freaking awesome, as as Int to AC in any armour if he needs it (though his later version of the ability requires light armour). And who doesn't like the ability to add your class level to any save when you want it?

And of course, all of that was just combat. We haven't even gotten started on out of combat.

Out of combat you're much like a Rogue, except that unlike a Rogue you can pump Int without worrying (Rogues have to care about their Dex a lot more if they want to survive, and their poorer defense makes Con that much more critical). This means your higher int will make up for the skill point difference. Then you've got both Int and Dex (and both Int and Str) to skills that require Str or Dex, the ability to add your Factotum level once per day to any skill you've got a point in already, and of course the ability to cast nearly any Wizard/Sorc spell, though admittedly a few spell levels behind the big boys. This can mean scouting an area while Alter Selfed into a Whispergnome or Skulk for better hide and move silently, using Autohypnosis to automatically memorize every detail you see, and then sneaking back. Or just using a divination spell. You've got such spells as Knock and Silence to help out too. And that's just the scouting aspect.

There's a reason Factotums are in Tier 3 in my system, and in fact they're pretty high in Tier 3. They've got so much innate flexibility it's obscene... unexperienced DMs thinking they're weaker could get VERY surprised but how much a Factotum can alter himself to suit a situation perfectly.  Put a Factotum in a group with a Rogue and that Rogue ends up looking like dead weight plenty of the time (any time where the situation calls for one skill monkey to do something). And the Fighter? The Factotum can often outclass him too, sometimes dropping whole encounters in the surprise round and start of the first round. And he can do all of it without warning, adapting on the fly to the situation in front of him.  Certainly, when I watch the one that's currently grouped with my Dread Necromancer (plus a Sorcerer, Cleric, Swordsage, and Paladin of Tyranny/Hexblade) there's no way he's the weak link.

So yeah, really potent, really flexible class that can REALLY surprise a DM.

JaronK
: Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3.
: Generic_PC July 05, 2009, 03:43:17 AM
I've played a Factotum, and it was funny stuff, because one of the other players thought it was stupid to take Font of Inspiration as my only feat. This was a weird mercenary campaign, that almost encouraged infighting, and I had bluffed my way into the leader spot, and was challenged for it. By this player and his 3 rogue buddies. He got really mad when I won initiative and pulled the exact same Cloudkill+Solid Fog trick. Next turn, all his accomplices moved 5' and took max con damage, then I cast Web and basically screwed them.

Factotum is easily one of the highest Tier 3's, because of their ability to outclass any tier 4 or 5 character handily. That factotum went on to swindle a wizard and place the blame directly on the fighters head, because 16 con damage wasn't enough.

I love 'em.
: Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3.
: Lycanthromancer July 05, 2009, 04:09:40 AM
Factotums are awesome.

Don't forget that Initiative is a Dex check, meaning they get Int to that, too...
: Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3.
: Akalsaris July 05, 2009, 08:50:08 AM
Well, I'd check with a DM on that one.  Personally, I agree that it should apply to Initiative, but I'm not so sure that it's RAI, or it would have been spelled out, especially as initiative is never defined as a Dex check so much as a unique check that includes your Dex bonus.

But yeah, Factotums = awesome.  I'd love to play a whisper gnome factotum someday and use knowledge devotion (CC) along with trivial knowledge (RoS), and the gnomish quickblade (RoS) with Iajutsu.  It'd be like playing a ninja, only much cooler.  Though the Font of Inspiration feat really annoys me - it gets better the more times you take it, but there's so many other feats that I want to take early on, when IPs are especially lacking - and later on in the game its benefits are more lackluster. 
: Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3.
: SorO_Lost July 05, 2009, 11:16:50 AM
: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/initiative.htm
Initiative Checks

At the start of a battle, each combatant makes an initiative check. An initiative check is a Dexterity check. Each character applies his or her Dexterity modifier to the roll. Characters act in order, counting down from highest result to lowest. In every round that follows, the characters act in the same order (unless a character takes an action that results in his or her initiative changing; see Special Initiative Actions).

If two or more combatants have the same initiative check result, the combatants who are tied act in order of total initiative modifier (highest first). If there is still a tie, the tied characters should roll again to determine which one of them goes before the other.
: Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3.
: Gr1lledcheese July 05, 2009, 12:48:29 PM
Technical difficulties are preventing me from modifying the post. Technical difficulties in the form of exceeding the maximum amount of characters, and me not being smart enough to make a reserve post or two. :banghead

I've contacted a moderator, and hopefully can get it updated shortly.
: Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3.
: Gr1lledcheese July 05, 2009, 12:50:05 PM
*Reserved*

Hopefully I can get this moved up.
: Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3.
: Lycanthromancer July 05, 2009, 03:38:40 PM
Might want to reserve an additional 2 or 3, even.
: Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3.
: woodenbandman July 05, 2009, 04:02:42 PM
Ooh, here's one on bards:

[spoiler]
Pros: Great support outside of core in splatbooks. Feats that benefit multiclassed bards and prestige classes mean that a bard can cover any archetype of character adequately, whether it's Fighter, Tank (though illusionary defenses add up really well), sneak, face, magic user, healer, or buffer. They can even cover two of these roles at once, in many cases. Best at buffing, though (9d6 or however the hell much it is energy damage on each attack the party makes is awesome. Can make a strong case for using TWF if there's no rogue in the party already).

Very decent spell list. Some bard specific spells (Glibness, Hymn of Praise) are awesome and make any party fawn over the thought of a bard. Some spells not limited to bards only (Alter Self, Grease, Haste, Greater Blink, Greater Mirror Image) are extremely awesome anyway.

A great host of alternate class features, including songs that cause debuffs (that one that makes enemies attack each other is nice), the ability to use a fascinate effect with a DC based on a skill check (allowing you to often bypass a lot of hazards such as guards that must be snuck past), along with the ability to instill suggestions to a crowd at high levels, is awesome.

Cons:
Inside core, the only real useful feat for a bard is Skill Focus. Maybe the Spring Attack chain. A bard doesn't get enough weapon proficiencies in class to make a very good meleer, the rogue out sneaks them, etc. Not an ideal replacement for any dedicated class, and are thusly relegated to the role of secondary whatever.

Also, their low hit die and medium base attack bonus means that most people will outmatch them in a straight fight. [/spoiler]
: Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3.
: Dictum Mortuum July 05, 2009, 06:26:00 PM
Bard:

The main problem is that bards are too spread out. They can do several things and contribute to the party, but they don't excel anywhere.

Pros: They can buff, heal, speak, UMD, cast, scout, damage, summon. If there are martial characters in the group (or summoners) they're gonna love the bard, even if they don't optimize their inspire courage, as haste and displacement are equally spicy. Bardic music stacking with lingering song ftw. I love how they can cure a stupid amount of HPs using CLWs by chanting that healing hymn. I also love the half-elf substitution levels, especially coupled with deepwyrm half-drow. Actually, now that i think of it, bards have some quality alternative class features available. Take obtain/improved familiar and you have two of a character. A hasted power attacking (through heroics :p) bard who also inspires courage and wields a two handed weapon is scary -_-

Also: whip proficiency, hell yeah \m/ i'm goddamn indiana jones baby!

Cons: Again, spreading too much is a problem (bard's less stretched than lightning warrior unfortunately). No transmutations make me sad. Most of the songs need to be swapped for alternative ones. You just need inspire courage and inspire greatness (coupled with polymorph, yay!), really. Countersong is probably the worst class feature. Ever. No 7th and above spells (where the party starts). No spot skill is a minor detail, but it bugs me :p

Last but not least, the biggest con is not being respected by your own party :p ("bards? meh! What, are you gonna, like, sing the monsters away?", "Nonono, i was able to hit that monster anyway, didn't need your +WTFOMFGPWND inspire courage mod")

: Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3, #1 of 2.
: Gr1lledcheese July 06, 2009, 03:02:35 AM
Still left in this thread:

The binder needs a description (Tier 3 post # 2)

The dread necromancer needs some pros.
: Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3, #1 of 2.
: The_Mad_Linguist July 06, 2009, 03:08:49 AM
Dread necromancer: Assuming you have half a brain and take tomb-tainted soul at first level, you get unlimited free out of combat healing.  You can pull off the same rainbow servant shenanigans as the warmage, but have less incentive to do so because your class features are better.  The familiar you get is actually useful in combat, and you certainly have some good fear stacking synergy with it - plus, you can use it to extend your personal buffs to other party members if you choose the ghostly visage.
: Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3, #1 of 2.
: lans July 06, 2009, 04:21:54 AM
Binders
Pro Binders get a variety of options with 5 round cool downs, including save or sucks, penalties to everything, smites, turning, rerolls, cure light wounds and others. It can get spirited charge and mount, imprisonment at 15th level, phantasmal killer at 10th, get huge bonuses to a variety of skills, +16 to hide and move silently at 13th level for example with 4d6 sneak attack and sudden strike, punch like a monk, walk around and attack everybody you walk by which is kind of cool if you can punch like a monk, move an ally as a swift action,  20% concealment at 6th level unless they can see in darkness like you can.

The pact augmentation allows it to get a bonus on initiative, ac, saves, hp damage reduction, or damage.
Gets immunity to energy drain, and mind blank.

Cons
Can only use most of the cool things like imprisonment or what have you every 5 rounds, which is all right when you can cycle through 5 options, but at first though 8th level it really sucks.
: Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3, #1 of 2.
: Akalsaris July 06, 2009, 06:04:27 AM
Just a suggestion, but why not format it so that the Pros go first, and then the Cons are listed?  Considering that T3 characters are generally above-par at their roles, I would generally want to know what they are good at before I learn all the things they really suck at  :P
: Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3, #1 of 2.
: Gr1lledcheese July 06, 2009, 12:20:58 PM
Just a suggestion, but why not format it so that the Pros go first, and then the Cons are listed?  Considering that T3 characters are generally above-par at their roles, I would generally want to know what they are good at before I learn all the things they really suck at  :P

The idea behind it is that the balance of Pro/Con ratio shifts past tier 3. Tier 4 and below generally have more cons, tier 3 and above generally have less cons. So as the list progresses, the con section will get progressively smaller while pros gets progressively bigger.

That is...until I go back and do Tier 6  :witsend

Heh... :)
---------------------------------------------

Added: Dread Necromancer pros and binder description on post #2.
: Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3, #1 of 2.
: Mushroom July 06, 2009, 12:23:25 PM
If memory serves, doesn't a level 20 dread necromancer, with the help of an item or two, possess the ability to command like 800+ HD worth of undead?
: Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3, #1 of 2.
: lans July 06, 2009, 03:33:24 PM
If memory serves, doesn't a level 20 dread necromancer, with the help of an item or two, possess the ability to command like 800+ HD worth of undead?
It has (Normal per level+2Cha mod)xlevelish so pretty much
: Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3, #1 of 2.
: JaronK July 06, 2009, 10:15:28 PM
Dread Necromancer:  As a note, I'm playing one now (I've gone from 1-10 with him) in a low wealth, high optimization game.

Pro:  The Dread Necromancer is of course a 9 level caster class, similar to the Beguiler and Warmage.  Like the Beguiler, his spell list is limited and yet flexible in its own way.  Though he lacks the big power spells of the Tier 1 arcanists, he's still got a bunch of good ones (Cloudkill, Animate Dead, and Planar Binding come to mind, but see the cons for more on Planar Binding).  Plus, Advanced Learning can net him golden spells like Ghoul Glyph, Shivering Touch, and Black Sand.  Unlike the vast majority of caster classes, the Dread Necromancer class abilities are actually solid.  Fear Aura is incredible when combined with Intimidate and Imperious Command.  His familiar selection is awesome.  Charnel Touch provides free downtime healing all day long for his minions, and with Tomb Tainted Soul he can heal himself as well (and any party members that take the feat)... and the ability works quite nicely with sickening grasp.  In fact, a Dread Necromancer wearing Fearsome armor (intimidate as a move action) can use Intimidate (with Imperious Command) to make an enemy cower, then as a free action use Fear Aura to make sure they stay that way, then touch another enemy with Charnel Touch combined with Sickening Grasp to sicken them, then have his Ghostly Visage familiar paralyze them, all in one round without spending any resources.  Plus, if he turns party members into Necropolitans his Undead Mastery ability should help them out a good deal.  And of course Undead Mastery itself provides him with as many mindless minions as he could want, as long as he can afford them (and has a steady supply of onyxs... or takes a two level dip into Palemaster).  Also, turning into a Lich at 20 is awesome, and Rebuke Undead is quite handy on a Charisma based class if you can get the items to support it.  Furthermore, the Dread Necromancer has disguise on his class list and is a Charisma caster, which is incredibly handy for disguising undead minions as being something other than undead (so they don't get rebuked by enemies).  Finally, the constant healing and the damage reduction make Dread Necromancers a surprisingly good low level tank class, but this ability disappears as enemies start hitting harder (around level 5-7).

Cons:  The Dread Necromancer's spell list is quite limited, and most of the really big game breaker spells aren't on there, which keeps him out of Tier 2.  Of note is Planar Binding... though he can cast the spell, he lacks Magic Circle, so he can't actually capture people with it.  All he can do is summon things into traps, kill them, and raise them from the dead.  This is very thematic, but it means he can't actually use their special abilities (such as an Effreti's wishes) because he mostly has to raise them as zombies or skeletons.   At high enough level and with enough rebuke undead improving items he could use Create Undead to make a Bone Creature version of the grabbed minions, but this requires some DM fiat as the DM can pick the appropriate caster level requirement to make a Bone Creature Efreeti.  As such, despite having this powerful spell the Dread Necromancer can't really abuse it like a Sorcerer or Wizard could.  His skill list is also of limited use... Intimidate and Disguise are very useful, and Concentration is nice, but that's about it.  Dread Necromancers will also have a tough time actually filling out their Undead Mastery granted Animate Dead limits, as availability of onyxes can become a serious issue in many games.  Also, Undead Mastery is class level based, making it less attractive to PrC out (but you don't really need to do that).

JaronK