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The Thinktank => Min/Max It! => : Surreal December 24, 2008, 04:49:42 PM

: dragon PC races
: Surreal December 24, 2008, 04:49:42 PM
Copied over from my thread on 339...

********************

I was browsing through Dragons of Faerun earlier today and noticed that the Mercury/Steel/Mist wyrmlings all have low hd (3 or 4) and LA+2. They also have some nice movement modes (Mercury is insane for speed with a 200' perfect flight), good stats, and a few good special abilities (Steel gets alternate form, Mist gets gaseous form). I think this actually puts them into the realm of playable races, even starting at ecl 5-6.

Looking around briefly, the White wyrmling and Sapphire wyrmling have near the same hd/LA, but their stats and abilities are not as good. The pseudodragon gets mention for blindsense and telepathy and reasonably good stats, but unfortunately has 2hd and LA+3 (why couldn't it be the other way?).

Are there any other good dragons out there? And what can be done with them?

--------------------------
will update list later with more info...
DoF - Dragons of Faerun
Dcn - Draconomicon
MoF - Monsters of Faerun
MoI - Magic of Incarnum

Ambush Drake (online (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20060728a); MM3) 7HD/0LA medium - debatable about the LA

Brass (MM) 4HD/2LA tiny - breath weapon: sleep

Brown (MoF) 6HD/2LA medium - tremorsense 500' (it's a bit high for ECL, but yikes that's a powerful tremorsense)

Copper (MM) 5HD/2LA tiny - immune acid, spider climb, breath weapon: slow

Crested Felldrake (MM2) 2HD/2LA small - scent, no flight

Deep (Drow of the Underdark) 6HD/3LA tiny - burrow, detect magic, true seeing, immune to charms

Faerie (Dcn) 8HD/2LA small - decent SLAs, breath weapon: daze, can be advanced in HD/size without changing LA

Fang (Dcn) 3HD/3LA tiny - bite: ability drain, increased damage, trip, sound imitation, detect/read magic

Incarnum (MoI) 4HD/2LA tiny - Meldshaping (Soulborn list)

Mercury (DoF) 3HD/2LA tiny - high speed (200' perfect flight!), apply the Shadow template for 300'

Mist (DoF) 3HD/2LA tiny - gaseous form

Pseudodragon (MM) 2HD/3LA tiny - telepathy, blindsense, spell resistance

Rattelyr (Shining South) 2HD/2LA tiny - immune to fire, resist elec 20, no flight, burrow 60', no breath weapon, strong fear ability, tremorsense 60'

Sand (Sandstorm) 3HD/2LA tiny - Immunity to Fire, 20' burrow, Tremorsense 60 ft.

Sapphire (MM2) 5HD/2LA tiny - breath weapon: sonic & causes panic (not listed as mind or fear effect), all four movement modes, the only psionic dragon with low LA on this list

Shadow (Dcn) 4HD/3LA tiny - breath weapon: energy drain

Silver (MM) 7HD/4LA small - alternate form, breath weapon: paralyze

Spiked Felldrake (Dcn) 6HD/2LA large - very good mount (at Paladin -6), can be advanced in HD/size without changing LA

Spire (Sharn: City of Towers) 2HD/2LA tiny - evasion, blindsense 60', flight, breath weapon = fog cloud, high dex

Steel (DoF) 4HD/2LA small - alternate form, 1st level arcane casting (with access to divine plus a couple domains)

Tome (Dragon Magazine #343) 3HD/5LA - 3rd level arcane casting (knows all sorcerer divination/conjuration spells and knowledge domain)

White (MM) 3HD/2LA tiny - has all four movement modes

Other stuff
Feats from Dragons of Eberron (p.15)
- Alternate Form: gain alternate form Su ability
- Half-Dragon Form: use alternate form to become a humanoid with the half-dragon template applied
- Hidden Strength: higher stats while in alternate form

Spells from Dragons of Eberron (p.15)
- Strength of the True Form (Sor 1, transmutation) : gain NA, DR and stats of your original form while in an alternate/polymorph form

Alternate dragon features from Dragons of Eberron (p.30) - most trade away clerical spells
- Child of Eberron: learn Druidic, class skills: survival, cast druid spells
- Flame of the Forge: CL+2 for crafting, class skills: craft & UMD, a few more spells known, retain essense like an artificer
- Fortune's Fang: spells from cleric and feast, luck and trickery domains, class skills: bluff & disguise
- Guide of the Weak: spells from cleric and community and protection domain, class skills: diplomacy & intimidate
- Lightkeeper: divine aura as a cleric, take Extra Turning to gain turning as a cleric 4/day, spells from cleric and glory, law, sun and war
- Loredrake: effective sorcerer level +2, reduces hit dice to d10s
- Master of the Hoard: spells from cleric and charm, commerce and travel domains, class skills: appraise, diplomacy, sense motive
- Passion's Flame: gain rage, spells from cleric and madness and passion, class skills: perform
- Stalking Wyrm: gain favored enemies, bonus feat Track, spells from Cleric and air, animal and earth domains, class skills: hide, move silently, survival
- Wyrm of War: proficient with all simple & martial weapon, and all armor and shields, bonus feat every 4 hd, treat sorcerer level as initiator level and trade spell slots for maneuvers/stances from Tiger Claw

Races of the Dragon - see this quote from p.4
Dragons automatically qualify for any classes, prestige classes, racial substitution levels, feats, powers or spells that require the dragonblood subtype.
- depending how you read that, this could mean you automatically qualify for anything requiring the dragonblood subtype simply by virtue of being a true dragon, allowing you to ignore other prereqs
- Singer of Concordance (RotD, p.91) - any true dragon can enter immediately, and it progresses casting fully
: Re: dragon PC races
: Surreal December 24, 2008, 04:49:59 PM
reserved in case I need it

edit: just for fun (assuming no LA buyback) - Steel 6/Crusader or Warblade 1/Abjurant Champion 3/Jade Phoenix Mage 10
- BAB 18, initiator 14, sorcerer 12 (14 with loredrake), nothing even remotely game breaking but it could be fun
- AbjCh is strictly unnecessary, but you need full arcane advancement there to qualify for JPM (a touch of mindbender is ever so popular)
- using the Wyrm of War archetype, initiator level is... 26? I have no idea how that'll stack
: Re: dragon PC races
: BowenSilverclaw December 24, 2008, 04:57:20 PM
Ah, nice to see this one ported over :)
Kudos, Surreal :)
: Re: dragon PC races
: Rebel7284 December 24, 2008, 05:26:41 PM
Hmr, with LA buyoff, some of them are semi-playable.  If you're in a long campaign, gaining age categories skews the math doesn't it?
: Re: dragon PC races
: BowenSilverclaw December 24, 2008, 05:33:11 PM
There are rules in the Draconomicon for using Dragons as PCs, including using PC classes, you need to gain a Dragon HD every couple of years, but still, it's doable...

And let's not forget it's damn awesome :D

EDIT: Edited to fix fuck-up :)

: Re: dragon PC races
: Negative Zero December 24, 2008, 06:20:24 PM
Do the natural effective sorcerer levels of dragons stack with class levels in sorcerer?
: If I'm incoherent right now, I apologize. I haven't had any caffeine all day.
: Emy December 24, 2008, 07:01:06 PM
Do the natural effective sorcerer levels of dragons stack with class levels in sorcerer?

Yes.

I've been messing around with this Wyrmling Steel Dragon Abjurant Champion gish build:
Steel Dragon HD 4/Sorcerer 2/Abjurant Champion 4/Unseen Seer 8/Spelldancer 2
with Level Adjustment Buyoff, the Loredrake archetype, the Stalwart Sorcerer ACF, and the Dragonblood Sorcerer substitution level (because I didn't want to deal with having a familiar)

Unseen Seer is there to hit 15 BAB by level 18 to take Improved Rapidstrike (Claws). I don't know how useful this actually is, compared with... say... spellcasting, but it looks nice at least. It's already very feat-tight as is. But hey, ability to persist (tons if Sheltered Vitality is available). Make sure he has a divine spellcaster buddy for Sheltered Vitality and Lesser Restoration, Gishy McSteel could cast this on himself if he didn't take loredrake, but then he'd only get level 8 spells. Moving Spelldancer 1 up a level and Unseen Seer 8 back to 19 could be good. Then Advanced Learning could grab Choose Destiny. Which gets persisted. HELLS YES.

 - Highlights - BAB +16, casts as Sorcerer 19, Spelldance for metamagic without slot adjustment, a couple of off-list Divination spells, only one spell known of 9th level :(

I'd like to make a few comments as well:

Sovereign Archetypes1 (such as the ever-useful Loredrake) remove a dragon's ability to cast cleric and domain spells as arcane spells, if they have any.

Dragons with innate spellcasting abilities do not need material components, though they do need foci.2

: BowenSilverclaw
There are rules in the Draconomicon for using Dragons as PCs, including using PC classes, you need to gain a Dragon HD every couple of levels,

As noted by Rebel7284, this only matters if it's a long campaign. They have to take a dragon HD or level adjustment as indicated on the table every few years, not every few levels. Sadly, you can't not advance dragon HD as you can with bloodlines. With bloodlines not taking a level carries a penalty, but as a dragon it's simply not an option.

If you can manage the LA buyoff, Loredrake, and don't take more than 1 dragon HD, and only take full casting classes, 9th level spells are possible for a Steel.

Sadly, kobolds are better at everything than dragons are. (They're even better at being dragons  :banghead)

1 Dragons of Eberron, page 30
2 Draconomicon, page 24

edit: this just reminded me of a fun thread I should post. I'll do it when I get back from getting food.
: Re: dragon PC races
: Surreal December 24, 2008, 08:32:58 PM
I know Loredrake gets all the attention, but some of those other Archetypes are quite good. I've summarized them in my first post.

A few of those almost beg for certain builds... the Child of Eberron for example is another interesting (not necessarily good...) way to enter Fochlucan Lyrist, and Wyrm of War has all sorts of fun potential, but I have no idea how those initiator levels will stack once you throw in Jade Phoenix Mage. I threw up a quick sample build in the second post.
: Re: dragon PC races
: BowenSilverclaw December 24, 2008, 08:58:36 PM
: BowenSilverclaw
There are rules in the Draconomicon for using Dragons as PCs, including using PC classes, you need to gain a Dragon HD every couple of levels,

As noted by Rebel7284, this only matters if it's a long campaign. They have to take a dragon HD or level adjustment as indicated on the table every few years, not every few levels.
Aye, my bad :)
: Re: dragon PC races
: Emy December 25, 2008, 12:01:48 AM
I think that Initiator Level of 24 (for Wyrm of War maneuvers. IL 10 for Warblade or Crusader) would be right, assuming you add your Jade Phoenix Mage martial progression to your Wyrm of War maneuvers. 12 (effective sorcerer level) + 10 (jade pheonix progression) + 2 (half of your non-martial adept levels*)

* counting the non-martial adept levels as: 3 of the Dragon HD, since the first grants spellcasting. The Warblade or Crusader level.

Abjurant Champion increases spellcasting, so it counts as a Wyrm of War martial adept class for adding 1/2 of the other levels, same with JPM and the first Dragon HD.

This is confusing as hell though, and there are probably at least three ways to adjudicate how the Initiator Level progression works.
: Re: dragon PC races
: woodenbandman December 25, 2008, 12:43:34 AM
'scuse me where is wyrm of war, is it draconomicon?
: Re: dragon PC races
: Surreal December 25, 2008, 01:37:49 AM
It's on p.30 of Dragons of Eberron... y'know, sort of like I mentioned on the first post... *cough* :D

edit: and with that funny JPM build and assuming favourable stacking, while you'd only be able to trade in spell slots for 6th level maneuvers, I think you could still pick up 9th level with the bonus maneuvers granted by JPM.
: Re: dragon PC races
: Runestar December 25, 2008, 07:14:44 AM
It's on p.30 of Dragons of Eberron... y'know, sort of like I mentioned on the first post... *cough* Big Grin

It is not exactly very well publicized. Heck, in all the time I have owned DoE, I only just realized that such a variant exists after reading about it on this thread, and only because woodenbandman pointed it out... :blush
: Re: dragon PC races
: Emy December 25, 2008, 08:39:15 PM
Am I reading this right? It looks like Wyrm of War is either proficiencies and bonus feats or tiger claw maneuvers and stances.

Edit: build stub:

Steel Dragon 4/Level Adjustment 2/Wilder 4/Fighter 4/Telflammar Shadowlord 4/Crusader 1/Psychic Warrior 1

Robilar's + Opportunity Power + Dissipating Touch + Shadow Pounce for full attack on AoO
Expansion + Rapidstrike (+imp.) + Multiattack (+imp.) for better full attacks
Thicket of Blades for more AoOs

problems: lots of attacks, but poor damage. regaining psionic focus for metapsionics.

edit #2:

I'd really like to try to build something other than a steel dragon, but tiny size is rather limiting for noncasters, and for casters, the steel's built in casting is quite good... and it's not like dragons can go into Blade Bravo. :(
: Re: dragon PC races
: DavidWL December 25, 2008, 10:04:15 PM
Emy, you are reading it right, and I was going to say, that Wyrm of war for the 4-5 bonus feats is also a good trade for 2 levels of sorcerer spellcating (if you're not going to be a full caster anyway).

Steel Dragon wardrake(feat) example =>
Dragon 4/ LA + 2/Fighter 14
- like a fighter, but with 2 extra feats, polymorph, 1st level casting, and flight (and 2 less BAB / HD).  Not optimal, but definitely decent when compared to fighter 20.

reserved in case I need it

edit: just for fun (assuming no LA buyback) - Steel 6/Crusader or Warblade 1/Abjurant Champion 3/Jade Phoenix Mage 10
- BAB 18, initiator 14, sorcerer 12 (14 with loredrake), nothing even remotely game breaking but it could be fun
- AbjCh is strictly unnecessary, but you need full arcane advancement there to qualify for JPM (a touch of mindbender is ever so popular)
- using the Wyrm of War archetype, initiator level is... 26? I have no idea how that'll stack

With LA buyoff and 2 extra levels of abjurant champion, and Wyrm of War(feats), the above becomes:

Which is pretty awesome.  5 extra fighter feats in a gish build beats (I think) 2 extra CL (assuming your enough behind your caster counterparts)?.

Best,
David

EDIT
Actually, if we list out the benefits of a dragon:

And the benefits of a Steel Dragon (or comparable for any of the others which are good with +2 LA - particularly Mercury):

If we add Lore drake or Wyrm of War =>

That really is worth +2LA.  Just keep in mind that you can't be a Full caster, and you're fine.  (Assuming the +2 LA).
: Re: dragon PC races
: DavidWL December 25, 2008, 10:14:31 PM
edit #2:

I'd really like to try to build something other than a steel dragon, but tiny size is rather limiting for noncasters, and for casters, the steel's built in casting is quite good... and it's not like dragons can go into Blade Bravo. :(

I was thinking that a mercury dragon Wyrm of War(feats) with underfoot combat and confound the big folk would be sort of fun.
: Re: dragon PC races
: Emy December 25, 2008, 11:51:59 PM
{cut for size}

With LA buyoff and 2 extra levels of abjurant champion, and Wyrm of War(feats), the above becomes:
  • BAB 20
  • 5 bonus fighter feats
  • Initiator 15
  • Sorcerer = 14 (CL = 20)
  • flight, alternate form, etc.

Which is pretty awesome.  5 extra fighter feats in a gish build beats (I think) 2 extra CL (assuming your enough behind your caster counterparts)?.

Best,
David

EDIT
Actually, if we list out the benefits of a dragon:
  • blindsense 60', darkvision,
  • immunity to sleep / paralysis, dragon type (resistant to some spells, extra advantage from some spells).
  • flight ~150' !

And the benefits of a Steel Dragon (or comparable for any of the others which are good with +2 LA):
  • alternate form 5 times per day!
  • +2 CON, +2 CHA, +3 NA
  • 1 Sorcerer* CL

If we add Lore drake or Wyrm of War =>
  • +2 Sorcerer CL or
  • + 4-5 feats

That really is worth +2LA.  Just keep in mind that you can't be a Full caster, and you're fine.  (Assuming the +2 LA).

I'd like to note that fighter bonus feat choices aren't the only options there. It's that or "any combat-related feat tied to draconic abilities". And yeah, LA buyoff is really attractive with all these +2 LA dragon races.

Rapidstrike, Improved Rapidstrike or Great Flyby Attack are all perfectly reasonable and fit quite neatly within that broad category.

edit #2:

I'd really like to try to build something other than a steel dragon, but tiny size is rather limiting for noncasters, and for casters, the steel's built in casting is quite good... and it's not like dragons can go into Blade Bravo. :(

I was thinking that a mercury dragon Wyrm of War(feats) with underfoot combat and confound the big folk would be sort of fun.

Yeah, I took a look at the "I may be Tiny, but you're dead" thread, but it looked like Blade Bravo was very important to the build. Its core, basically.

Also the Mercury dragon's main selling point is mobility. You lose that if you enter an opponent's square and stay there for Confound the Big Folk. Knee Striker may work if you move through their square one turn (involves entering it), then come back with a pounce on the next turn. I haven't really thought about it enough, honestly. If you manage to make it workable, I'll give you angry propellers.
: Re: dragon PC races
: DavidWL December 26, 2008, 12:17:43 AM
You are right about the feat choices including dragon feats.  Wow, great flyby attack is just brutal.  Make a build that optimizes single-attack damage, and go to town.

As an aside, a Mercury Dragon 3/Sorcerer 1 is vaguely equivalent to a Steel Dragon 4.

Blade Bravo wasn't really that essential - it's biggest effect was to add ~+6 AC. 

Best,
David

EDIT: Another variant:

Steel Dragon 4 /Warblade 1 /Abjurant Champion 5 /Swiftblade 10
with Wyrm of War(feat) option
: Re: dragon PC races
: Emy December 26, 2008, 02:59:25 PM
You are right about the feat choices including dragon feats.  Wow, great flyby attack is just brutal.  Make a build that optimizes single-attack damage, and go to town.

Given how easily Steels qualify for gish prestige classes like Abjurant Champion, Arcane Strike would be a really nice combo with Great Flyby Attack.

As an aside, a Mercury Dragon 3/Sorcerer 1 is vaguely equivalent to a Steel Dragon 4.

With 1 less BAB, no ability to cast cleric spells as sorcerer spells, and no Alternate Form. Sorcerer is really a loss here. Without the racial casting ability there's not really a reason to go into Sorcerer (I mean, there is still Loredrake, but...). With a 3/5/7 progression casting class, and level adjustment buyoff, a Mercury could get 9th level spells in a non-sorcerer full casting class. That opens up (for example) Mercury 3/Cleric 3/Church Inquisitor 4/Contemplative 6/Dweomerkeeper 4.

edit: Lawful NEUTRAL in the church of mystra, pick up rebuking through Lightkeeper archetype, turning through Cleric. Spend your day in persistent AMF w/Initiate of Mystra

Blade Bravo wasn't really that essential - it's biggest effect was to add ~+6 AC. 

Best,
David

Hm, I guess that's true... is there a way to gain a racial dodge bonus vs. giants to get Titan Fighting?

I just thought "oh god, how did I forget about Stoneblessed?!", but then I looked it up, and it's for Giants, Humanoids, or Monsterous Humanoids only.  :mad

As an aside: Half-Dragon Form doesn't look too bad. Use it to turn into a Half-Dragon Flind Gnoll, then Alter Self back into a small dragon. You lose some stuff, but your physical stats are set to STR 24, DEX 12, and CON 16. It could be useful somehow. If you need to carry heavy things,?
: Re: dragon PC races
: DavidWL December 26, 2008, 07:02:25 PM
Given how easily Steels qualify for gish prestige classes like Abjurant Champion, Arcane Strike would be a really nice combo with Great Flyby Attack.

Yes.  You can even stack the Arcane Wrath of the Jade Phoenix Mage (which you might have anyway) - although there are probably better ways to add damage to "one" attack.

With 1 less BAB, no ability to cast cleric spells as sorcerer spells, and no Alternate Form. Sorcerer is really a loss here. Without the racial casting ability there's not really a reason to go into Sorcerer (I mean, there is still Loredrake, but...). With a 3/5/7 progression casting class, and level adjustment buyoff, a Mercury could get 9th level spells in a non-sorcerer full casting class. That opens up (for example) Mercury 3/Cleric 3/Church Inquisitor 4/Contemplative 6/Dweomerkeeper 4.

edit: Lawful NEUTRAL in the church of mystra, pick up rebuking through Lightkeeper archetype, turning through Cleric. Spend your day in persistent AMF w/Initiate of Mystra

I completely agree with your sentiment that the primary point of the Mercury dragon is that it isn't "forced" to spend one HD to get  a level of casting.  That said, any of the above builds with the steel dragon could be done (almost) as well with the Mercury dragon.  Below is a build that really is better with the Mercury Dragon:

If we compare a Crusader 2/Swordsage 1/Monk 1/Cleric/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10/Master of Nine 5 (classes not quite taken in that order) to:
IL = 18
BAB = 15
CL = 9

A mercury dragon 3 (Wyrm of War)/Crusader 2/Swordsage 1/Monk 1/Cleric 1/Ruby Knight Vidicator 7/Master of Nine 5
IL = 17
BAB = 15
CL = 6
5 bonus feats

However, my main point is that the builds should take advantage of the dragon's strengths, instead of being builds that a human could do better.

Hm, I guess that's true... is there a way to gain a racial dodge bonus vs. giants to get Titan Fighting?

I don't know this, but I suspect that alter self (or some spell in the polymorph school) would give it.

Best,
David
: Re: dragon PC races
: KellKheraptis August 24, 2009, 11:08:05 PM
Do Tome Dragons recieve a full "level" of spellcasting (I'm assuming Wizard given their description here, and their name) with each racial HD?  I don't have access to that Dragon atm.
: Re: dragon PC races
: Emy August 24, 2009, 11:22:42 PM
Do Tome Dragons recieve a full "level" of spellcasting (I'm assuming Wizard given their description here, and their name) with each racial HD?  I don't have access to that Dragon atm.

It's based on age category, not racial HD, just like every other dragon of which I know.
: Re: dragon PC races
: KellKheraptis August 24, 2009, 11:26:21 PM
Do Tome Dragons recieve a full "level" of spellcasting (I'm assuming Wizard given their description here, and their name) with each racial HD?  I don't have access to that Dragon atm.

It's based on age category, not racial HD, just like every other dragon of which I know.

Well...in that case do they receive 3 casting levels per age catagory (same question, different context)?  Wyrmling they're 3/3, that would suggest they progress 1 per HD.
: Re: dragon PC races
: Suzerain August 24, 2009, 11:27:27 PM
Do Tome Dragons recieve a full "level" of spellcasting (I'm assuming Wizard given their description here, and their name) with each racial HD?  I don't have access to that Dragon atm.
No they don't and no it's sorcerer casting. They just get all conjuration and divination spells and spells from the knowledge domain as bonus spells known. Their spellcasting advances 2 levels per age category (like epic dragons).
: Re: dragon PC races
: Surreal September 23, 2009, 02:01:39 AM
Added the brown dragon. It's a bit on the heavy side at 8 ecl, but where else are you going to find a 500' tremorsense? Heck, where else can you find a 500' anything?
: Re: dragon PC races
: Anklebite September 23, 2009, 02:13:27 AM
Added the brown dragon. It's a bit on the heavy side at 8 ecl, but where else are you going to find a 500' tremorsense? Heck, where else can you find a 500' anything?
formian queen + mindsight is a 5 mile radius. yeah, really.

although, good find on that tremorsense  :D
: Re: dragon PC races
: Emy September 23, 2009, 03:01:15 AM
Spell Weavers have 1000 mile telepathy

Just sayin'.
: Re: dragon PC races
: Surreal September 23, 2009, 03:18:03 AM
But only with each other. I'm sure there's a way to cheese out of that restriction somehow though.
: Re: dragon PC races
: PlzBreakMyCampaign September 23, 2009, 11:57:04 AM
But only with each other. I'm sure there's a way to cheese out of that restriction somehow though.
So with mindsight thats like multi-armed alien cyber sex right? :joystick
: Re: dragon PC races
: Surreal September 24, 2009, 08:54:43 PM
Heh heh... I'm mastering my joystick...

[/obscure?]
: Re: dragon PC races
: bearsarebrown September 25, 2009, 02:49:14 AM
Dragon 313 has a lot of templates for dragons. No level adjustment given, I think they're meant for DMs only, like Half-Golems, but most of them make you worse...

Nameless- lose spellcasting for nondetection and Mind Blank  :rollseyes
Ravening- 3 breath weapons every 1d4 rounds, and +2 to DC... very strong. but you have to eat your size in creatures each day.
Riddled- loses spell slot of each level to cast as a sorcerer but from Intelligence
Spellhoarding- casts as an actual Wizard, spellbook and all. Countering a spell adds it to spellbook (cool!)
Wandering- 20% displacement and half spellcasting...

Then in Dragon 321 you have all the alignment based ones. All have True Seeing on at all times, increases flying maneuverability, 100' telepathy, immunity to disease, fear, and polymorphing, and can't cast spells of there opposing Alignment. They also gain Domain access, an addition to there breath weapon, and an aura which lasts Age category + 1d4 rounds. Each have a +4 LA.

Chaotic- Chaos, Lucky, Trickery domain access, breath weapon is Glitterdust. Aura of Blur.
Evil-  Death, Evil, War domain access, breath weapon infects with Demon Fever. Aura of Constitution and Wisdom damage.
Good- Good, Healing, Protection domain access, breath weapon is Will save or Die to undead. Aura of Fasting healing and d6/round damage to Evil.
Lawful- Knowledge, Law, Strength domain access, breath weapon is ANTI-MAGIC FIELD for 1d4 rounds. Aura of Doom (to non-lawful) and minimum damage roles.

: Re: dragon PC races
: Surreal April 06, 2010, 04:55:58 AM
Added the Rattelyr dragon from Shining South. So far the lowest HD/LA, it doesn't have a fear aura but instead a "rattle" which can panic foes at impressive range.
: Re: dragon PC races
: gorfnad April 06, 2010, 05:21:54 AM
On the high end Faerie Dragons from Draconomicon might be worth looking into especially if you can by off the LA.  8 HD/ LA +2
Also Dragon Magazine 332 has Savage Species style character progression charts for chromatic dragons that could easily be adapted for dragons of other types.
: Re: dragon PC races
: Brainpiercing April 06, 2010, 11:59:16 AM
Also Dragon Magazine 332 has Savage Species style character progression charts for chromatic dragons that could easily be adapted for dragons of other types.

Anyone care to actually do some of those? I would like to have a few <=6 level progressions to offer to the players of my E6 game, and these dragons seem nice. BUT I'm too lazy to do them on the off chance that someone will play one of them...

I also need to put them in the Tier system, then.
: Re: dragon PC races
: PhaedrusXY April 06, 2010, 12:11:47 PM
Do Tome Dragons recieve a full "level" of spellcasting (I'm assuming Wizard given their description here, and their name) with each racial HD?  I don't have access to that Dragon atm.
No they don't and no it's sorcerer casting. They just get all conjuration and divination spells and spells from the knowledge domain as bonus spells known. Their spellcasting advances 2 levels per age category (like epic dragons).
:o Wow... Ok... I gotta check that out. A Tome Dragon in a Tome game (which uses CR+1=ECL in general, instead of listed ECL) could be insanely good. :D (Dragons get a bit more LA as they have the "awesome" descriptor, but still...)
: Re: dragon PC races
: Surreal April 06, 2010, 02:37:14 PM
Fixed an odd typo or two.

Added Faerie, added note about Faerie and Crested Felldrake being able to advance in hd/LA without increasing LA

Faerie dragon gets a dazing breath weapon.
: Re: dragon PC races
: bearsarebrown April 06, 2010, 02:41:01 PM
The Arch-Dragon templates from Dragon 321 are amazing. There are four templates, one for each alignment. They all augment the Breath Weapon, give True Seeing, Give an aura...

Good gets an Undead Destroyer breath weapon. Chaos gets a GLITTERDUST breath weapon. Evil gets an Insanity one. And Law gets an AMF! And these are all in addition to the normal affects.
: Re: dragon PC races
: Surreal April 06, 2010, 02:43:26 PM
I don't have Dragon, so someone else will have to list the stats.

I'm not sure if I should just go through and add the lowest statblock for every dragon for the sake of completeness.  I was originally trying to keep it to low ECLs, but I'm pushing 10 or 11 with some of those.
: Re: dragon PC races
: Anklebite April 06, 2010, 02:47:28 PM
The Arch-Dragon templates from Dragon 321 are amazing. There are four templates, one for each alignment. They all augment the Breath Weapon, give True Seeing, Give an aura...

Good gets an Undead Destroyer breath weapon. Chaos gets a GLITTERDUST breath weapon. Evil gets an Insanity one. And Law gets an AMF! And these are all in addition to the normal affects.
I can see the law one backfiring vs incorporeal.
: Re: dragon PC races
: Surreal April 19, 2010, 01:27:02 AM
Added the Deep Dragon (latest version from Drow of the Underdark). A bit high at 6HD/3LA, but it has decent stats, detect magic at will, and immunity to charm and continuous true seeing  :o
: Re: dragon PC races
: The_Mad_Linguist April 19, 2010, 06:04:46 AM
Could you add in the orange, purple, and yellow dragons from Dragon Compendium?  They have kinda weird breath weapons.
: Re: dragon PC races
: Surreal April 19, 2010, 06:30:23 AM
You'll have to list all the relevant stats for me since I don't have the compendium.
: Re: dragon PC races
: Mushroom April 19, 2010, 06:43:58 AM
You'll have to list all the relevant stats for me since I don't have the compendium.
Orange: 5 HD 2 LA Small
Purple:7 HD 4 LA Medium
Yellow:3 HD 2 LA Tiny

Orange: Shoots some kind of goopey substance that explodes after 2 rounds 2d10(reflex save 13 to negate) 1d6 round recharge
Purple:3 forms: 2d10 Cone(15 save) +30 ft blinding burst(15 fort save)+Something akin to an eldritch glaive breath weapon(only does half damage)
Yellow: Blasts opponents with salt, every time they fail a save against it -2 on attack, AC, reflex, and str dex con skill checks + -10 on movement speed(hitting zero means they can't move)
: Re: dragon PC races
: The_Mad_Linguist April 19, 2010, 06:57:07 AM
They aren't the best, really, but they're weird enough that I think they're worth noting

Wyrmling Orange dragon (small)
5 HD 3 LA, poison immunity, water breathing, 100 ft average fly, 40' swim.
Weird line of delayed exploding spit breath weapon.  Initially fires in a line with a save, then two round later explodes in a 15' burst with no save for those covered in it.

Wyrmling Purple dragon (medium)
7 HD, 4 LA, 150' fly (poor), 20' burrow

Three-in-one breath weapon.  Can either be a cone of "pure energy", a flash with a fort save vs. permanent blindness, or an additional melee weapon that is used to make touch attacks (and can be used with all other physical attacks... a loose reading would allow you to wield weapons and get an additional set of iteratives).

Wyrmling Yellow Dragon (tiny)
3 HD, +2 LA, land 20, 150' fly (good), burrow 20, swim 80 (wingless)
Waterbreathing, +2 bonus on attacks while in the air
Breath weapon is a cone of salt, which on a failed save gives penalties to attacks, AC, reflex saves, physical skill checks and speeds, which explicitly stack with themselves.


Of them, I think Yellow is probably the most useful (good movement, and a decent debuff breath weapon).

EDIT: Dang, ninjaed
: Re: dragon PC races
: Mushroom April 19, 2010, 07:00:13 AM
=
EDIT: Dang, ninjaed
Horrus ninjaed the whole Imperium, don't feel bad
: Re: dragon PC races
: The_Mad_Linguist April 19, 2010, 07:03:17 AM
EDIT: nevermind
: Re: dragon PC races
: Brainpiercing April 19, 2010, 10:24:53 AM
The Yellow Wyrmling does sound quite useful. IMHO quite a bit more useful than the puny 1d6 energy breath weapons the other wyrmlings get.
: Re: dragon PC races
: PlzBreakMyCampaign April 19, 2010, 07:09:14 PM
So aside from that ambush drake "Template Class" (whatever that is...) there are no LA+1 dragons races? (don't say dragonwraughts...)
: Re: dragon PC races
: Surreal April 19, 2010, 07:48:09 PM
I think +2 is the best we've got.
: Re: dragon PC races
: The_Mad_Linguist April 19, 2010, 08:21:30 PM
So aside from that ambush drake "Template Class" (whatever that is...) there are no LA+1 dragons races? (don't say dragonwraughts...)
It's like the ghost savage progression (which is technically also a 'template class'), except you explicitly can't multiclass out of it.

Which sucks.
: Re: dragon PC races
: Endarire April 19, 2010, 08:40:56 PM
Can I polymorph into a dragon and gain these sovereign archetypes?
: Re: dragon PC races
: SorO_Lost April 19, 2010, 08:43:15 PM
I went this long without seeing the thread?

Here is my list, its lacking the class skills of each dragon but longer and more detailed :p
:
All dragons have
d12s for HD, all good saves, six skill points per level.
Class Skills: Concentration, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Intimidate, Listen, Knowledge (any), Search, Sense Motive, Spot, and Use Magic Device.
Senses: blindsense 60, keen senses (see x4 in darkness and x2 in light), darkvision 120ft.
A bite attack (1d4 for tiny, 1d6 for small) with reach.
And two claw attacks (1d3 for tiny, 1d4 for small)
Breath weapon save DCs are 10 + 1/2 HD + con

Amphi (3e, dragonlance, beastiary of kynn)
Stats: 1HD/2LA, Tiny
Adjustments: -2 str
Natural AC: +1
Speed: land 20ft, burrow 10ft, swim 60ft
Breath: line of acid, 1d6
Qualities: amphibious, immunity to acid, improved grab, swallow whole

Aquatic (3e, dragonlance, beastiary of kynn)
Stats: 3HD/3LA, Tiny
Adjustments: +2 dex/con/int/cha, +4 wis
Natural AC: +3
Speed: land 20ft, swim 40ft
Breath: out of water; cone of cold 1d6 & in water; cone of slow cloud, cloud lasts 1d6 minutes and the effect lasts for 1d6+1 rounds
Qualities: alternate form, continual flame, immunity to acid and cold, vulnerable to fire, waterbreathing

Battle (draconomicon)
Stats: 5HD/2LA, Tiny
Adjustments: +2 str/cha, +4 con
Natural AC: +5
Speed: land 40ft, fly 100ft (average)
Breath: cone of sonic energy, 2d6 & cone of fear (shakens), 4d6 rounds.
Qualities: immunity to sonic

Black (mm/srd)
Stats: 4HD/3LA, Tiny
Adjustments: -2 int/cha, +2 con
Natural AC: +3
Speed: land 60ft, fly 100ft (average)
Breath: line of acid, 2d4
Qualities: Immune to acid, water breathing

Blue (mm/srd)
Stats: 6HD/4LA, Small
Adjustments: +2 str/con
Natural AC: +5
Speed: land 40ft. burrow 20ft, fly 100 (average)
Breath: line of lightning, 2d8
Qualities: immunity to electricity, create/destroy water 3/day

Brass (mm/srd)
Stats: 4HD/2LA, Tiny
Adjustments: +2 con
Natural AC: +3
Speed: land 60ft, burrow 30ft, fly 150 (average)
Breath: line of fire, 1d6 & cone of sleep, 1d6+1 rounds.
Qualities: immunity to fire, speak with animals (at will), vulnerability to cold

Bronze (mm/srd)
Stats: 6HD/LA4, Small
Adjustments: +2 str/con, +4 int/wis/cha
Natural AC: +5
Speed: land 40ft, fly 100ft (average)
Breath: line of lightning, 2d6 & cone of repulsion (can only move away), 1d6+1 rounds
Qualities: immunity to electricity, water breathing, speak with animals

Brown (3e/3.5, forgotten realms, monsters of faerun)
Stats: 6HD/2LA, Medium
Adjustments: +2 int/wis/cha, +4 str/con
Natural AC: +3
Speed: land 60ft, burrow 60ft
Breath: line of acid, 2d6
Qualities: acid immunity, tremorsense

Copper (mm/srd)
Stats: 5HD/2LA, Tiny
Adjustments: +2 con/int/wis/cha
Natural AC: +4
Speed: land 40ft, fly 100ft (average)
Breath: line of acid, 2d4 & cone of slow gas, 1d6+1 rounds.
Qualities: immunity to acid, spider climb

Chaos (draconomicon)
Stats: 6HD/4LA, Small
Adjustments: +2 int, +4 con/wis, +6 cha
Natural AC: +5
Speed: land 60ft, fly 150ft (average)
Breath: line of energy (random prime type), 2d4 & cone of confusion, 1d6+1 rounds.
Qualities: immunity to compulsion effects

Deep (3e/3.5, forgotten realms, monsters of faerun)
Stats: 6HD/4LA, Tiny
Adjustments: +2 con/wis/cha, +4 int
Natural AC: +5
Speed: land 40ft, fly 100ft (average)
Breath: cone of acid, 2d8
Qualities: true seeing, detect magic, charm immunity, cold and fire resistance 10

Ethereal (draconomicon)
Stats: 4HD/2LA, Tiny
Adjustments: -2 str, +2 con/wis
Natural AC: +3
Speed: land 60ft, fly 60ft (poor)
Breath: cone of force, 2d6
Qualities: immune to ether cyclones

Fire (3e, dragonlance, beastiary of kynn)
Stats: 4HD/4LA, Medium
Adjustments: -4 int/wis/cha, +4 str/con
Natural AC: +3
Speed: land 40ft, fly 150ft (poor), burrow 20ft
Breath: cone of fire, 2d6 burns for 1d4 fire damage per round till they save (-1 DC per round)
Qualities: heat, immunity to fire, vulnerability to cold

Frost (3e, dragonlance, beastiary of kynn)
Stats: 5HD/5LA, Small
Adjustments: -2 int, +2 str/con
Natural AC: +3
Speed: land 40ft, fly 100ft (average), burrow 20ft
Breath: cone of cold, 2d6 also breath deals 1 cha damage a seperate save negs
Qualities: leewalking, immunity to cold, vulnerability to fire

Gold (mm/srd)
Stats: 8HD/4LA, Medium
Adjustments: +4 con/int/wis/cha, +6 str.
Natural AC: +7
Speed: land 60ft, fly 200ft (poor), swim 60ft
Breath: cone of fire, 2d10 & cone of weakening gas, 1 str damage
Qualities: alternate form, immunity to fire, vulnerability to cold, water breathing

Gray (3e, dragonlance, beastiary of kynn)
Stats: 3HD/LA2, Tiny
Adjustments: -2 str/cha
Natural AC: +2
Speed: land 60ft, burrow 30ft, fly 150ft (average), swim 60ft
Breath: cone of cold, 1d6
Qualities: icewalking, immunity to cold, vulnerability to fire

Green (mm/srd)
Stats: 5HD/5LA, Small
Adjustments: +2 str/con
Natural AC: +4
Speed: land 4ft. fly 100ft (average)
Breath: cone of acid, 2d6
Qualities: immunity to acid, water breathing

Howling (draconomicon)
Stats: 9HD/4LA, Medium
Adjustments: -2 wis, +4 con/int/cha, +6 str
Natural AC: +8
Speed: land 60ft, fly 100ft (average)
Breath: cone of sonic, 2d10 & cone of maddening wails, 1 wisdom damage. Both are limited to 10ft range.
Qualities: immunity to sonic, Frightful Presence, SR 15

Mercury (forgotten realms, dragons of faerun)
Stats: 3HD/2LA, Tiny
Adjustments: +2 con, +4 dex
Natural AC: +2
Speed: land 60ft, fly 200ft (perfect)
Breath: ine of fire, 1d8
Qualities: immunity to fire, vulnerability to cold, protected sight

Mist (forgotten realms, dragons of faerun)
Stats: 3HD/2LA, Tiny
Adjustments: +2 con
Natural AC: +2
Speed: land 40ft, fly 100ft (average)
Breath: cone of fire, 2d6 & line of slime, sickens 1d6+1 rounds
Qualities: immunity to acid and fire, mist form(allowed to cast as a mist)

Oceanus (draconomicon)
Stats: 7HD/4LA, Small
Adjustments: +4 str/con/int/cha
Natural AC: +7
Speed: land 40ft, fly 100ft (average), swim 60ft
Breath: line of lightning, 2d8 & cone of tranquility (dazes), 1d6+1 rounds
Qualities: amphibious, immunity to electricity

Pyroclastic (draconomicon)
Stats: 7HD/4LA, Medium
Adjustments: +4 con, +6 str
Natural AC: +6
Speed: land 60ft, fly 100ft (poor), climb 40ft, burrow 45ft
Breath: cone of fire/sonic, 2d6 & disintegrating line (save or die)
Qualities: immunity to fire and sonic, Frightful Presence, SR 14

Radiant (draconomicon)
Stats: 9HD/4LA, Medium
Adjustments: +4 dex/con/int, +6 str/wis/cha
Natural AC: +5
Speed: land 60ft, fly 150ft (average)
Breath: line of force, 2d10 & cone of light (blinds), 1d6+1 rounds
Qualities: immunity to light effects

Rattelyr (3e, forgotten realms, shining south)
Stats: 2Hd/2LA, Tiny
Adjustments: -2 cha, +2 con
Natural AC: +2
Speed: land 60ft, burrow 30ft
Breath: cone of fire, 1d6
Qualities: resistance to electricity 20, immunity to fire, rattle, tremorsense 60ft

Red (mm/srd)
Stats: 7HD/4LA, Medium
Adjustments: +4 con, +6 str
Natural AC: +6
Speed: land 40ft, fly 150 (poor)
Breath: cone of fire, 2d10
Qualities: immunity to fire, vulnerability to cold

Rust (draconomicon)
Stats: 6HD/4LA, Small
Adjustments: -4 int/cha, +2 str/con
Natural AC: +6
Speed: land 60ft, fly 100ft (average), burrow 45ft.
Breath: line of acid, 2d4 & cone of rust (destroys metal)
Qualities: metal resistance (dr 5/magic or non-metal), rusting bite, SR 13

Sand (3e, sandstorm)
Stats: 3HD/2LA, Tiny
Adjustments: none
Natural AC: +4
Speed: land 30ft, burrow 20ft, fly 80ft (average)
Breath: cone of dust, 1d4
Qualities: immunity to fire, tremorsense 60 ft.

Shadow (draconomicon)
Stats: 4Hd/3LA, Tiny
Adjustments: +2 con, +4 int/wis/cha
Natural AC: +7
Speed: land 80ft, fly 150ft (average)
Breath: cone of energy drain, 1 negative level
Qualities: energy drain immunity, SR 12

Silver (mm/srd)
Stats: 7HD/4LA, Small
Adjustments: +2 str/con, +4 int/wis/cha
Natural AC: +6
Speed: land 40ft, fly 100ft (average)
Breath: cone of cold, 2d8 & cone of paralyzing gas, 1d6+1 rounds.
Qualities: alternate form, immunity to acid and cold, cloudwalking, vulnerability to fire

Song (3e/3.5, forgotten realms, monsters of faerun)
Stats: 5HD/5LA, Tiny
Adjustments: -2 str, +2con, +4 int/wis, +6 cha
Natural AC: +4
Speed: land 40ft, fly 150ft (average)
Breath: cone of electricity, 2d6
Qualities: change shape, true seeing, tongues, light, darkness, electricity and poison immunity

Steel (forgotten realms, dragons of faerun)
Stats: 4HD/2LA, Small
Adjustments: +2 con/cha
Natural AC: +3
Speed: land 60ft, fly 150ft (average), swim 30ft
Breath: line of acid, 1d6 & cone of poison, 1 con damage then 1 min later again.
Qualities: alternate form, immunity to acid, SR 16, spells; sorcerer 1st + knowledge & trickery

Styx (draconomicon)
Stats: 5HD/5LA, Small
Adjustments: +2 str/con
Natural AC: 4
Speed: land 60ft, swim 60ft, burrow 20ft.
Breath: line of acid, 1d6 (persists for 3 rounds) & cone of stupefying, 1 int damage
Qualities: amphibious, constrict, improved grab, immunity to poison and disease, Styx adaptation, SR 13

Tarterian (draconomicon)
Stats: 8HD/4LA, Medium
Adjustments: +4 con/int/wis/cha, +3 str
Natural AC: +7
Speed: land 60ft, fly 150ft (poor)
Breath: line of force, 2d8 &  cone of will-sapping, –2 saves/attack/ability/skill/damage rolls for 1 round.
Qualities: force resistance, strength of will, freedom of movement, Frightful Presence, SR 15

White (mm/srd)
Stats: 3HD/LA2, Tiny
Adjustments: -4 int/cha, +2 con
Natural AC: +2
Speed: land 60ft, burrow 30ft, fly 150ft (average), swim 60ft
Breath: cone of cold, 1d6
Qualities: icewalking, immunity to cold, vulnerability to fire
For the record, the Steel Dragon is the greatest dragon ever made.

Also, Ambush Drake, Farie Dragon, etc. are not true dragons. I wouldn't touch them with an elven foot pole.
: Re: dragon PC races
: Endarire April 19, 2010, 08:45:08 PM
Why is a steel dragon so uber?
: Re: dragon PC races
: SorO_Lost April 19, 2010, 09:02:50 PM
Why is a steel dragon so uber?
Personal preference mostly.

Take the CharOp favored Mist dragon. You give up 50ft of speed but still have 150. In return you get to take one more dragon racial hit dice than the mist (since you cannot PrC out yet) which has better bab/saves/skills/hd than the sorcerer class and trade the worthless gaseous form ability to an infinite duration shapechange into a humanoid ability five times per day.

Of course LA is free after buy off which puts it above all the rest save for a select few. *shudders at the mention of the white dragon and it's horrible mental penalties*
: Re: dragon PC races
: The_Mad_Linguist April 19, 2010, 09:04:39 PM
Oh, and I guess at some point the OA dragons need to be added as well...


And more HD = worse buyoff, which is a consideration.
: Re: dragon PC races
: SorO_Lost April 20, 2010, 12:15:24 AM
And more HD = worse buyoff, which is a consideration.
Which is a point of why Steel is so awesome. The Steel is an exception.
btw correction to my self, it's the mist dragon that has the gaseous form. My bad.

Loredrake Mercury Dragon Sorcerer 1: ECL 6 (4hd, 2la). Casts as a 3rd level caster.
3d10+1d4 (23.5 hp), 3/3/5 saves, 38 skill points, +2 con & +4 dex.
Fly 200 (perfect), takes +50% from cold spells, is tiny (-8 to most opposed checks).
Immune to stuff that would blind or dazzle it and +3 on saves vs light or pattern effects and immunity to fire.

Loredrake Steel Dragon: ECL 6 (4hd, 2la). Casts as a 3rd level caster.
4d10 (26.5 hp), 4/4/4 saves, 42 skill points, +2 con & cha.
Fly 150 (average, no hover), is small (only -4 to most opposed checks).
+10 save bonus against poison, immune to acid, spell resistance 16, 5/day change into any animal/humanoid with no duration.


The Steel has a hair bit more hp/save/skill points than the Mercury since it didn't have to take that level in sorcerer to achieve the same spellcasting ability. No elemental deals extra damage to it and it's already packing spell resistance equal to it's ECL+10, this will be out scaled but for now it's nice. It has a racial bonus to it's primary casting stat too which is always better than +4 in a secondary stat.

The icing on the cake is probably it's alternate form ability is polymorph only limited to humanoids and animals. Steel dragons are already masters of disguise without a single rank in the skill and are capable of trading their flight for even higher physical abilities. Mercury won't have alter Self till next level and thats capped at 5HD so it has to wait until ECL 11 to get around it, by then the Steel was changing into 10HD creatures a level ago.

Finally, consider that paying a druid 10,450gp for Mantle Of The Icy Soul & 11,360gp for Mantle Of The Fiery Spirit granting both dragons full immunity to both fire & cold. In which case the steel dragon's acid immunity truly pulls out ahead as it is an immunity you cannot simply buy with chump change later on.

And so I consider the Steel Dragon in every way superior to the CharOp favored Mercury Dragon. In open spaces flying in a circle works every bit as good as the ability to hover and 150ft is plenty to out distance virtually any land creature so snipping 50ft of speed is perfectly practical.

***

The OA dragons lack LA entries in the OA book. Perhaps another book updated them kinda like Dragon's of Faerun added LA to some of the 3E Faerunian dragons?
: Re: dragon PC races
: The_Mad_Linguist April 20, 2010, 12:22:59 AM
What dragon isn't going to take a level of singer of concordance instead of a level of sorcerer?

Automatic qualification is sweet.
: Re: dragon PC races
: Surreal April 20, 2010, 01:07:08 AM
Oh, and I guess at some point the OA dragons need to be added as well...

Maybe I failed my spot check, but I don't see any LA listed for them...
: Re: dragon PC races
: The_Mad_Linguist April 20, 2010, 01:37:48 AM
Hmm... maybe I'm confusing them with the OA nagas? 
: Re: dragon PC races
: SorO_Lost April 20, 2010, 03:10:27 PM
What dragon isn't going to take a level of singer of concordance instead of a level of sorcerer?

Automatic qualification is sweet.
Both of them.
: races of the dragon, Singers of Concordance
Entry Requirements
Subtype: Dragonblood.
Spellcasting: Ability to cast 3rd-level divine spells. (loredrake gives up divine spells & 3rd level of sorcerer give 1st level of spells not 3rd)
Skills: Knowledge (religion) 8 ranks. (lacks 5hd)
Deity: Io.

Are you thinking of a different PrC? What one?
: Re: dragon PC races
: The_Mad_Linguist April 20, 2010, 03:28:27 PM
Dragons automatically qualify for anything that requires the dragonblood subtype (note: they don't qualify *as having* the subtype, they just *automatically qualify for* the class/feat/whatever).  It's in a sidebar on page 4 or something.

The idea is that a dragon should be able to enter singer of concordance with racial spellcasting even if he can't technically cast divine spells.
: Re: dragon PC races
: SorO_Lost April 20, 2010, 06:14:35 PM
Dragons automatically qualify for anything that requires the dragonblood subtype (note: they don't qualify *as having* the subtype, they just *automatically qualify for* the class/feat/whatever).  It's in a sidebar on page 4 or something.

The idea is that a dragon should be able to enter singer of concordance with racial spellcasting even if he can't technically cast divine spells.
Spiffy? I know RAI thats so unintended but damn if I can't find something to say otherwise. I'll poke around later though if I get bored enough.

More of a point isn't that Mercury bypasses the limit of having to cast divine spells to enter the PrC is that +1 existing divine spellcasting is worthless when you have none to advance.
: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm
Spells: A dragon knows and casts arcane spells as a sorcerer of the level indicated in its variety description, gaining bonus spells for a high Charisma score. Some dragons can also cast spells from the cleric list or cleric domain lists as arcane spells.

And since none of the other PrCs advance spellcasting on their first level I can stick to my opinion easily enough.






: Re: dragon PC races
: The_Mad_Linguist April 20, 2010, 06:24:11 PM
It doesn't progress divine spellcasting, just any casting in general. 

The domain is also really nice.

And RAI, it's completely intended.  Not intended for dragonwrought kobolds to automatically qualify, maybe, (though at least it's just "dragon" and not "true dragon"), but it's completely intended for big badass chromatic or metallic dragons to pick up the PrC without multiclassing.
: Re: dragon PC races
: bearsarebrown April 20, 2010, 06:27:11 PM
Dragons automatically qualify for anything that requires the dragonblood subtype (note: they don't qualify *as having* the subtype, they just *automatically qualify for* the class/feat/whatever).  It's in a sidebar on page 4 or something.
The theoretical place to take this is taking Dragonblooded Sorcerer sublevels out of order.
: Re: dragon PC races
: The_Mad_Linguist April 20, 2010, 06:29:01 PM
The high theoretical, "even I the creator don't agree with using this interpretation in anything short of healing-bucketry RAW"is using this to pick up higher BAB and saves.
: Re: dragon PC races
: SorO_Lost April 20, 2010, 06:38:17 PM
1. It doesn't progress divine spellcasting, just any casting in general. 

2. The domain is also really nice.

3. And RAI, it's completely intended.  Not intended for dragonwrought kobolds to automatically qualify, maybe, (though at least it's just "dragon" and not "true dragon"), but it's completely intended for big badass chromatic or metallic dragons to pick up the PrC without multiclassing.
1. dub-a-u-tee-f. Who in the heck wrote this book? Eer I mean interesting & useful to know.

2. It says "you can select the spells in that domain as your daily domain spells." but you lack daily domain spells so how does that interact? all else fails it's a free domain power at least.

3. You seem to be offering knowledge that it's supported else where in the book, since I'm lazy I demand page numbers! or just a narrowed down place to look if you remember it.
: Re: dragon PC races
: The_Mad_Linguist April 20, 2010, 06:40:54 PM
True dragons with the ability to cast divine spells as arcane spells could enter the class, but not many do.

Since they don't fit the qualifications, but are listed as dudes that enter the prestige class
: Re: dragon PC races
: Anklebite April 20, 2010, 08:52:51 PM
What dragon isn't going to take a level of singer of concordance instead of a level of sorcerer?

Automatic qualification is sweet.
Both of them.
: races of the dragon, Singers of Concordance
Entry Requirements
Subtype: Dragonblood.
Spellcasting: Ability to cast 3rd-level divine spells. (loredrake gives up divine spells & 3rd level of sorcerer give 1st level of spells not 3rd)
Skills: Knowledge (religion) 8 ranks. (lacks 5hd)
Deity: Io.

Are you thinking of a different PrC? What one?
true dragons automatically qualify for any PrC that requires dragonblooded.
: Re: dragon PC races
: SorO_Lost April 21, 2010, 04:47:12 AM
What dragon isn't going to take a level of singer of concordance instead of a level of sorcerer?

Automatic qualification is sweet.
Both of them.
: races of the dragon, Singers of Concordance
Entry Requirements
Subtype: Dragonblood.
Spellcasting: Ability to cast 3rd-level divine spells. (loredrake gives up divine spells & 3rd level of sorcerer give 1st level of spells not 3rd)
Skills: Knowledge (religion) 8 ranks. (lacks 5hd)
Deity: Io.

Are you thinking of a different PrC? What one?
true dragons automatically qualify for any PrC that requires dragonblooded.
Ninja isn't the term for this. TML pointed that out 5 hours before your post.

***

True dragons with the ability to cast divine spells as arcane spells could enter the class, but not many do.

Since they don't fit the qualifications, but are listed as dudes that enter the prestige class

Interesting. I think I'm still going to favor Steel, better racial abilities and all that, but that removes the effect of having to take sorcerer levels even as the Steel to be able to PrC out into most other spellcasting classes.
: Re: dragon PC races
: Nunkuruji April 21, 2010, 01:16:19 PM
I've mentioned this elsewhere, but a Dragon PC with Alternate Form: Gnoll Flind (MM3) & the Half-Dragon Form feat (Dragons of Eberron) is a pretty nice medium humanoid combat form. Not nearly as powerful as the usual polymorph abuse, but handy.
: Re: dragon PC races
: PlzBreakMyCampaign April 21, 2010, 04:30:07 PM
I think +1 is the best we've got.
Please show me which one that is. I only see the LA0 questionable template ambush drake class and LA2's

btw soro's radiant dragon is LA4
: Re: dragon PC races
: Surreal April 21, 2010, 05:37:10 PM
I think +1 is the best we've got.
Please show me which one that is. I only see the LA0 questionable template ambush drake class and LA2's

btw soros radiant dragon is LA4

Sorry, that was a typo on my part. I meant to say +2 is the lowest.

What is "soros"?
: Re: dragon PC races
: Anklebite April 21, 2010, 11:21:50 PM
I think +1 is the best we've got.
Please show me which one that is. I only see the LA0 questionable template ambush drake class and LA2's

btw soros radiant dragon is LA4

Sorry, that was a typo on my part. I meant to say +2 is the lowest.

What is "soros"?


: Re: dragon PC races
: Brainpiercing April 22, 2010, 09:31:51 AM
I think +1 is the best we've got.
Please show me which one that is. I only see the LA0 questionable template ambush drake class and LA2's


I don't see what is questionable about this LA+0. The ambush drake has the complete template class online, why would you doubt it? It's not the first time someone at WotC contradicted earlier stuff, and if we can make use of it, why not? There are also numerous examples of interpreting (within reason) a LA - entry as LA 0, for instance for the spell-stitched template. When it doesn't seem reasonable to keep something from players then you just have to make use of the information you have.
: Re: dragon PC races
: SorO_Lost April 22, 2010, 11:08:19 AM
I think +1 is the best we've got.
Please show me which one that is. I only see the LA0 questionable template ambush drake class and LA2's

btw soros radiant dragon is LA4
Oh I missed it's LA entry. I'll get that changed, ty.

I think +1 is the best we've got.
Please show me which one that is. I only see the LA0 questionable template ambush drake class and LA2's
I don't see what is questionable about this LA+0. The ambush drake has the complete template class online, why would you doubt it? It's not the first time someone at WotC contradicted earlier stuff, and if we can make use of it, why not? There are also numerous examples of interpreting (within reason) a LA - entry as LA 0, for instance for the spell-stitched template. When it doesn't seem reasonable to keep something from players then you just have to make use of the information you have.
Everything.

: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/intro.htm
Level Adjustment
This line is included in the entries of creatures suitable for use as player characters or as cohorts (usually creatures with Intelligence scores of at least 3 and possessing opposable thumbs). Add this number to the creature’s total Hit Dice, including class levels, to get the creature’s effective character level (ECL). A character’s ECL affects the experience the character earns, the amount of experience the character must have before gaining a new level, and the character’s starting equipment.
Rule: Anything LA -- isn't for players.

Now find me an exception in this rule outside of rule 0. Hint, Ambush Drake has LA -- in it's MM3 entry and again the web article doesn't override or at any point say the progression is meant for players.

However it does say...
: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20060728a
You are far more likely to encounter these creatures in their adult or advanced forms, than as wyrmlings (1st and 2nd level), juvenile (3rd and 4th level), or even young adults (5th and 6th level). Nevertheless, unwary adventures that do stumble upon younger ambush drakes generally find that the older members of their packs are not far off.
...which to me sounds like the progression is meant for DMs to scale them as they choose.

Also, Ambush Drake sucks. Pretty sure the Fighter class is better due to some feats being more powerful that all the racial abilities of the drake combined and let's not even go into the inability to PrC out till level 8.


Oh and also, while I'm at it. I'm pretty sure the comment about not being able to PrC out until level 8 will prompt someone to say "you only take 1 level in Ambush Drake cus it's don't say you have to stay in the class" kinda like the Ghost Progression BS that still pops up. Pretty sure we've been over this, D&D doesn't say clapping my hands three times gives me 5,000 divine ranks so what does that prove?

Anyway, Savage Progression rules debuted in an old Dragonlance book that I know of and were made more prominently known in the 3rd edition book Savage Species that came out after and it says:
: Savage Species, page 27
MONSTER CLASSES AND MULTICLASSING
A monster character using these rules may not multiclass
until it completes the full progression in its monster
class. This rule keeps characters from gaining the benefits
of a monster’s type and then quickly switching to a
standard class.
So, skip comments about leaving any monster class early.
: Re: dragon PC races
: Ivory Knight April 22, 2010, 12:59:26 PM
How many classlevels does a dragon get, assuming optimal conditions(LA buyoff, no further Dragon HD or LA)?
For Steel Wyrmling I got: Dragon 4 + LA 2/ anything 6/LA -1(1)/ anything 3/LA -1(0)/ anything 7 = Dragon 4/ Classlevels 16/ LA 0 at ECL 20

I also wonder, if it may be worth to advance the Steel Dragon 1 Age category(= 3 HD+1 LA, which can, with careful timing, be bought of at ~ECL 18-19)
: Re: dragon PC races
: Nunkuruji April 22, 2010, 01:12:19 PM
From Wyrmling -> Very Young you gain 2 Caster Levels over 3 HD

Wyrmling with LA Buyoff, assuming 16 full caster level classes you end up being 17/20, 8th level spells
Very Young with LA Buyoff, assuming 13 full caster level classes you end up being 16/20, 8th level spells

The question is whether or not those 3 HD and Dragon abilities are worth the loss of 3 class levels and the features that you might gain.

Loredrake Sovereign Archetype can of course get you up to 9th level spells.


A Steel Dragon War Weaver/Spellguard would be pretty sweet, poaching off each list, but I'd probably take that as a Dragon Cohort rather than as a primary PC.
: Re: dragon PC races
: Ivory Knight April 22, 2010, 01:32:08 PM
Could get really awesome, if the Dragon gets Uncanny Trickster 3(for using 7th Level Spells with War Weaver).
Would MotAO work instead of Spellguard?
And don't forget Warmage(Dragonlance), your buddies will love the Dragon more than your Character^^

What would be the Main Character for a Steel Dragon War Weaver Cohort?
I'd take a Mystic Fire Knight(= Paladin with Wizard Spellbook), or maybe Crusader(ToB).
: Re: dragon PC races
: SorO_Lost April 22, 2010, 03:09:59 PM
The real fun is the fact you are a true dragon.

Wyrmlings are less than 6 years old.
Very Young is 6~15, Young is 16~25 & Juvenile is 26~50.

River's Ravages (DL:LofT) is a 2nd level wizard/sorcerer spell that ages you two years per caster level as a temporary debuff.

Pause for thought.

...

Yeah. It's awesome.
At ECL 10, with Loredrake & LA buy off. You'll have gotten rid of the LA and be packing 9/10 casting. You buff using River's Ravages and temporally age your self 18 years kicking you into the Young age category granting: 6 dragon levels (+6 bab, +6d10+(conmod*6)hp, +3 saves, more skills, 2 feats, +1 to an ability score), +6 natural AC, +4 str/int, +2 con/wis/cha, four stacking levels of sorcerer spellcasting, and +10 on saves against any 4th level or lower spell. Best of all, as a temporary debuff there isn't a reason for the DM to award XP gains to you as if you actually had those 6 HD. You don't gain less XP for persisting a dozen buffs as a cleric making you stronger than many races with LA for their inferior abilities or even gain XP for killing dozens of monsters that happen to be summons so River's Ravages is totally fine.

: Re: dragon PC races
: The_Mad_Linguist April 22, 2010, 03:25:40 PM

Oh and also, while I'm at it. I'm pretty sure the comment about not being able to PrC out until level 8 will prompt someone to say "you only take 1 level in Ambush Drake cus it's don't say you have to stay in the class" kinda like the Ghost Progression BS that still pops up. Pretty sure we've been over this, D&D doesn't say clapping my hands three times gives me 5,000 divine ranks so what does that prove?
No, Sor0, it isn't "they don't say you can't"
It's "this is a template class, and they follow different rules.  One of those rules, which is explicitly stated is that you can multiclass"

READ: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a

TL;DR?  Here's the relevant quotation
# Characters are not required to complete all the levels of a given template class in uninterrupted succession. For example, a character who takes a level of wereboar could then take a level of fighter and a level of rogue (or any other combination of other class levels) before taking another level of wereboar. A character must still take the first level of wereboar before taking the second, just as with a normal class.

If you're going to accuse somebody of not understanding the rules, READ THE RULES FIRST.  Otherwise you might as well say "well, the rules don't say wizards can prepare spells, so they suck as a class".

Now, ambush drakes are explicitly stated in their descriptions as being impossible to multiclass class out of, so no, you can't.  As I mentioned earlier in this very thread.  So you're tilting at windmills here.
: Re: dragon PC races
: Havok4 April 22, 2010, 03:43:43 PM
The inconsistency in the various ways to take monsters as class levels does indeed cause great confusion. I wish WotC had spent more time on those.
: Re: dragon PC races
: Anklebite April 22, 2010, 03:58:28 PM
I wish WotC had
you could write a book several novels an encyclopedia series containing nothing but sentences starting with those four words.
: Re: dragon PC races
: Havok4 April 22, 2010, 04:00:36 PM
I wish WotC had
you could write a book several novels an encyclopedia series containing nothing but sentences starting with those four words.
True, and another filled with "I wish WotC didn't", like make half the things in CPsi or make any of the base classes in complete warrior.
: Re: dragon PC races
: Anklebite April 22, 2010, 04:10:06 PM
I wish WotC had
you could write a book several novels an encyclopedia series containing nothing but sentences starting with those four words.
True, and another filled with "I wish WotC didn't", like make half the things in CPsi or make any of the base classes in complete warrior.
now now, swashbuckler can actually be useful; but yes, that's a whole nother cyclopedia WOTCica.
: Re: dragon PC races
: Nunkuruji April 22, 2010, 05:13:39 PM
The real fun is the fact you are a true dragon.

Wyrmlings are less than 6 years old.
Very Young is 6~15, Young is 16~25 & Juvenile is 26~50.

River's Ravages (DL:LofT) is a 2nd level wizard/sorcerer spell that ages you two years per caster level as a temporary debuff.

Pause for thought.

...

Yeah. It's awesome.
At ECL 10, with Loredrake & LA buy off. You'll have gotten rid of the LA and be packing 9/10 casting. You buff using River's Ravages and temporally age your self 18 years kicking you into the Young age category granting: 6 dragon levels (+6 bab, +6d10+(conmod*6)hp, +3 saves, more skills, 2 feats, +1 to an ability score), +6 natural AC, +4 str/int, +2 con/wis/cha, four stacking levels of sorcerer spellcasting, and +10 on saves against any 4th level or lower spell. Best of all, as a temporary debuff there isn't a reason for the DM to award XP gains to you as if you actually had those 6 HD. You don't gain less XP for persisting a dozen buffs as a cleric making you stronger than many races with LA for their inferior abilities or even gain XP for killing dozens of monsters that happen to be summons so River's Ravages is totally fine.



sweet
: Re: dragon PC races
: Rebel7284 April 22, 2010, 07:45:46 PM
Doesn't Bestow Greater Curse also age by a category?  It IS a higher level spell but it would possibly stack?
: Re: dragon PC races
: Mushroom April 22, 2010, 09:50:56 PM
Doesn't Bestow Greater Curse also age by a category?  It IS a higher level spell but it would possibly stack?
Not to mention it would be permanent until dispelled

Also, does one grab the LA for advancing an age category?
: Re: dragon PC races
: SorO_Lost April 22, 2010, 10:17:27 PM
It's a different named spell that has a different effect (river ages you X years, curse just kicks you into the next age category) of course it stacks. Bestow Curse is what you would do on the last level you play. Being permanent I can see some grounds for a DM to rule your only fixable by wish buff to face some form of XP penalty.

TO wise, hecks yeah. By using River's Ravages alone at the 15th level you can kick your self up to 21 HD and pick up an epic feat, level 17 means you can take Epic Spell Casting. Bestow Curse lowers the level you'll have to be to start squeezing epic abilities in.

***

@TML, Didn't know about that link, I go for the books and in the books an entirely different thing doesn't work like that. Apples and oranges.
"TL;DR?"
Dunno what that means. Was my DL:LotT too old to know? It's Dragonlance - Legends of the Twins.
It's a Dragonlance book detailing a lot of time traveling stuff including theories on altering the past, protecting it, etc. I'd pick it up if you can but you'll be nerfed COP wise and we're not talking about how everyone settled on true answers are so true that they force time to be unalterable but direct points on only with direct action a deity can influence time and mortals are flat out banned from it outside of a DM controlled chance and action assuming you're chaotic aligned and trying to screw with time.

: Re: dragon PC races
: Bastian April 23, 2010, 12:20:59 PM
"TL;DR?"
Dunno what that means.
Too Long; Didn't Read
: Re: dragon PC races
: SorO_Lost April 23, 2010, 02:39:38 PM
"TL;DR?"
Dunno what that means.
Too Long; Didn't Read
ok.
: Re: dragon PC races
: Nunkuruji April 23, 2010, 04:34:15 PM
Looking back through some notes on sample builds

The issue with the cohort became the ECL17 cap pre-epic. Improved Cohort doesn't really help unless your leadership score sucks, and Dragon Cohort was explicitly limited to the table (unless DM approves otherwise I suppose).

What I was inevitably looking for was retaining the Cleric list, and thus avoiding the Sovereign Archetype while fitting in War Weaver 5 and Spellguard4 in order to weave personal spells. Barring Legacy Champion tricks. Mindbender/Mindsight for general scouting.

The options for Draconic Auras and Dragon Pacts also are somewhat interesting options as well.


ECL20

Wyrmlings (Small)

Vanilla build
LA2 HD4 Wyrmling Steel Dragon / Sorcerer 5 / War Weaver 5 / SpellGuard 4
Caster Level 14th, 7th level spells


Flaws, Versatile-Heighten Early Entry, Practiced Spellcaster
LA2 HD4 Steel Dragon / Sorcerer 2 / MindBender 1 / War Weaver 5 / SpellGuard 4 / Arcane 2
Caster Level 14th, 7th level spells


LA-buyoff, Flaws, Versatile-Heighten Early Entry, Practiced Spellcaster
LA2(buyoff) HD4 Steel Dragon / Sorcerer 2 / MindBender 1 / War Weaver 5 / SpellGuard 4 / Arcane 4
Caster Level 16th, 8th level spells



Young (Medium, riding)

Versatile-Heighten Early Entry
LA4 HD10 Young Steel Dragon / War Weaver 5 / Arcane 1


LA-buyoff, Versatile-Heighten Early Entry
LA3(buyoff) LA1 HD10 Young Steel Dragon / War Weaver 5 / Spellguard 4
: Re: dragon PC races
: Havok4 April 23, 2010, 05:49:38 PM
Abjurant champion seems like it would be a good class to take on a steel dragon character as you only 1 more point of BaB to qualify.
: Re: dragon PC races
: Surreal April 28, 2010, 05:08:57 AM
Added the Spire Dragon from Sharn: City of Towers. Tied for lowest HD/LA, has evasion and blindsense.
: Re: dragon PC races
: The_Mad_Linguist April 28, 2010, 05:24:27 AM
Could you mention the easy entry for Singer of Concordance?  It seems like useful info, and is very easy to overlook.
: Re: dragon PC races
: Surreal April 28, 2010, 05:34:02 AM
Where is the exact page that states True Dragons automatically qualify for anything that requires Dragonblood? I've seen it mentioned several times here.
: Re: dragon PC races
: The_Mad_Linguist April 28, 2010, 05:36:45 AM
Where is the exact page that states True Dragons automatically qualify for anything that requires Dragonblood? I've seen it mentioned several times here.

RotD Page 4, sidebar, under "dragonblood subtype"
Dragons automatically qualify for any classes, prestige classes, racial substitution levels, feats, powers, or spells that require the dragonblood subtype.
: Re: dragon PC races
: Surreal April 28, 2010, 06:18:31 AM
Hmm, I see. It's a poorly worded paragraph (no surprise there)... I think the intent was that dragons qualify for anything that requires dragonblood, but doesn't bypass the other requirements. As RAW though... *shrug* I'll include it for the sake of completeness.
: Re: dragon PC races
: The_Mad_Linguist April 28, 2010, 02:50:42 PM
Hmm, I see. It's a poorly worded paragraph (no surprise there)... I think the intent was that dragons qualify for anything that requires dragonblood, but doesn't bypass the other requirements. As RAW though... *shrug* I'll include it for the sake of completeness.
Intent seems to be to allow true dragons (who can't cast divine spells) into singer of concordance.
: Re: dragon PC races
: Nunkuruji April 28, 2010, 04:16:54 PM
Hmm, I see. It's a poorly worded paragraph (no surprise there)... I think the intent was that dragons qualify for anything that requires dragonblood, but doesn't bypass the other requirements. As RAW though... *shrug* I'll include it for the sake of completeness.
Intent seems to be to allow true dragons (who can't cast divine spells) into singer of concordance.

They do have divine conversion methods, such as Sacred Warder, Unholy Ravager and Dispassionate Watcher PrCs in Draconomicon.
: Re: dragon PC races
: SorO_Lost April 28, 2010, 05:14:19 PM
Added the Spire Dragon from Sharn: City of Towers. Tied for lowest HD/LA, has evasion and blindsense.
All true dragons sport blindsense (is it one?), evasion is nice though.
: Re: dragon PC races
: Surreal April 28, 2010, 05:32:04 PM
I don't think the Spire dragon is a true dragon... for that you need age categories right?
: Re: dragon PC races
: SorO_Lost April 30, 2010, 03:11:26 AM
Yep.

***

I manged to find another spell I was looking for.

Hasten The End (dragonlance: holy orders of the stars)
Necromancy [Evil]
Level: Cleric/Wizard/Sorcerer 8
Duration: Concentration
Each round if they fail a fortitude save they gain a negative level and age 10 years.
+
Extraordinary Concentration (complete adventurer)
Make a concentration check of DC (25 + spell level) to concentration on a spell to a move action rather than a standard.
&
Swift Concentration (complete scoundrel)
Skill trick thus once per encounter, concentrating on a spell is a swift action.
=
Cast Hasten The End to age your self 10 years every round to bump your age categories up granting extra HD(thus hp/feats/saves/etc) and (probably) increase your spell casting abilities into the epic levels while maintaining the ability to cast every turn. Use the extra spell slots to spam Celerity to make up the loss of your move action or Time Stop for faster aging while you are at it.


So, you have River's Ravages at low levels to bump you up 1~2 age categories, Bestow Curse to bump you up one, and Hasten The End coming in late in the game but bumps you up to Ancient Wyrm. Pick your poison.
: Re: dragon PC races
: JaronK April 30, 2010, 05:07:22 AM
I don't think the Spire dragon is a true dragon... for that you need age categories right?

Specifically, you need exactly 12 age catagories (Dragon Magic, IIRC).

JaronK
: Re: dragon PC races
: Nunkuruji April 30, 2010, 12:11:45 PM
Wouldn't you be dropping negative levels/HD too fast to make up for it in age? Immunity to level drain / negative energy likely negates the aging spell effect as well. It's generally about 3HD per age category, with age categories being 50-200 years once you're past Juvenile.
: Re: dragon PC races
: SorO_Lost April 30, 2010, 01:23:36 PM
Death Ward, legacy item, Soulfire, Shadowy Diadem, it isn't hard to be immune to energy drain. The aging effect works as long as you fail the save regardless of weather or not you're immune to negative levels.
: Re: dragon PC races
: SorO_Lost May 21, 2010, 10:30:50 AM
No bump image?
:poke

I'd like if you all took a moment to glance at this and tell me any True Dragons I missed. I working on a repost of it as another resource that includes some additional information of each dragon.
:
All dragons have
d12s for HD, all good saves, six skill points per level.
Class Skills: Concentration, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Intimidate, Listen, Knowledge (any), Search, Sense Motive, Spot, and Use Magic Device.
Senses: blindsense 60, keen senses (see x4 in darkness and x2 in light), darkvision 120ft.
A bite attack (1d4 for tiny, 1d6 for small) with reach.
And two claw attacks (1d3 for tiny, 1d4 for small)
Breath weapon save DCs are 10 + 1/2 HD + con

Amphi (3e, dragonlance, beastiary of kynn)
Stats: 1HD/2LA, Tiny
Adjustments: -2 str
Natural AC: +1
Speed: land 20ft, burrow 10ft, swim 60ft
Breath: line of acid, 1d6
Qualities: amphibious, immunity to acid, improved grab, swallow whole

Aquatic (3e, dragonlance, beastiary of kynn)
Stats: 3HD/3LA, Tiny
Adjustments: +2 dex/con/int/cha, +4 wis
Natural AC: +3
Speed: land 20ft, swim 40ft
Breath: out of water; cone of cold 1d6 & in water; cone of slow cloud, cloud lasts 1d6 minutes and the effect lasts for 1d6+1 rounds
Qualities: alternate form, continual flame, immunity to acid and cold, vulnerable to fire, waterbreathing

Battle (draconomicon)
Stats: 5HD/2LA, Tiny
Adjustments: +2 str/cha, +4 con
Natural AC: +5
Speed: land 40ft, fly 100ft (average)
Breath: cone of sonic energy, 2d6 & cone of fear (shakens), 4d6 rounds.
Qualities: immunity to sonic

Black (mm/srd)
Stats: 4HD/3LA, Tiny
Adjustments: -2 int/cha, +2 con
Natural AC: +3
Speed: land 60ft, fly 100ft (average)
Breath: line of acid, 2d4
Qualities: Immune to acid, water breathing

Blue (mm/srd)
Stats: 6HD/4LA, Small
Adjustments: +2 str/con
Natural AC: +5
Speed: land 40ft. burrow 20ft, fly 100 (average)
Breath: line of lightning, 2d8
Qualities: immunity to electricity, create/destroy water 3/day

Brass (mm/srd)
Stats: 4HD/2LA, Tiny
Adjustments: +2 con
Natural AC: +3
Speed: land 60ft, burrow 30ft, fly 150 (average)
Breath: line of fire, 1d6 & cone of sleep, 1d6+1 rounds.
Qualities: immunity to fire, speak with animals (at will), vulnerability to cold

Bronze (mm/srd)
Stats: 6HD/LA4, Small
Adjustments: +2 str/con, +4 int/wis/cha
Natural AC: +5
Speed: land 40ft, fly 100ft (average)
Breath: line of lightning, 2d6 & cone of repulsion (can only move away), 1d6+1 rounds
Qualities: immunity to electricity, water breathing, speak with animals

Brown (3e/3.5, forgotten realms, monsters of faerun)
Stats: 6HD/2LA, Medium
Adjustments: +2 int/wis/cha, +4 str/con
Natural AC: +3
Speed: land 60ft, burrow 60ft
Breath: line of acid, 2d6
Qualities: acid immunity, tremorsense

Copper (mm/srd)
Stats: 5HD/2LA, Tiny
Adjustments: +2 con/int/wis/cha
Natural AC: +4
Speed: land 40ft, fly 100ft (average)
Breath: line of acid, 2d4 & cone of slow gas, 1d6+1 rounds.
Qualities: immunity to acid, spider climb

Chaos (draconomicon)
Stats: 6HD/4LA, Small
Adjustments: +2 int, +4 con/wis, +6 cha
Natural AC: +5
Speed: land 60ft, fly 150ft (average)
Breath: line of energy (random prime type), 2d4 & cone of confusion, 1d6+1 rounds.
Qualities: immunity to compulsion effects

Deep (3e/3.5, forgotten realms, monsters of faerun)
Stats: 6HD/4LA, Tiny
Adjustments: +2 con/wis/cha, +4 int
Natural AC: +5
Speed: land 40ft, fly 100ft (average)
Breath: cone of acid, 2d8
Qualities: true seeing, detect magic, charm immunity, cold and fire resistance 10

Ethereal (draconomicon)
Stats: 4HD/2LA, Tiny
Adjustments: -2 str, +2 con/wis
Natural AC: +3
Speed: land 60ft, fly 60ft (poor)
Breath: cone of force, 2d6
Qualities: immune to ether cyclones

Fire (3e, dragonlance, beastiary of kynn)
Stats: 4HD/4LA, Medium
Adjustments: -4 int/wis/cha, +4 str/con
Natural AC: +3
Speed: land 40ft, fly 150ft (poor), burrow 20ft
Breath: cone of fire, 2d6 burns for 1d4 fire damage per round till they save (-1 DC per round)
Qualities: heat, immunity to fire, vulnerability to cold

Frost (3e, dragonlance, beastiary of kynn)
Stats: 5HD/5LA, Small
Adjustments: -2 int, +2 str/con
Natural AC: +3
Speed: land 40ft, fly 100ft (average), burrow 20ft
Breath: cone of cold, 2d6 also breath deals 1 cha damage a seperate save negs
Qualities: leewalking, immunity to cold, vulnerability to fire

Gold (mm/srd)
Stats: 8HD/4LA, Medium
Adjustments: +4 con/int/wis/cha, +6 str.
Natural AC: +7
Speed: land 60ft, fly 200ft (poor), swim 60ft
Breath: cone of fire, 2d10 & cone of weakening gas, 1 str damage
Qualities: alternate form, immunity to fire, vulnerability to cold, water breathing

Gray (3e, dragonlance, beastiary of kynn)
Stats: 3HD/LA2, Tiny
Adjustments: -2 str/cha
Natural AC: +2
Speed: land 60ft, burrow 30ft, fly 150ft (average), swim 60ft
Breath: cone of cold, 1d6
Qualities: icewalking, immunity to cold, vulnerability to fire

Green (mm/srd)
Stats: 5HD/5LA, Small
Adjustments: +2 str/con
Natural AC: +4
Speed: land 4ft. fly 100ft (average)
Breath: cone of acid, 2d6
Qualities: immunity to acid, water breathing

Howling (draconomicon)
Stats: 9HD/4LA, Medium
Adjustments: -2 wis, +4 con/int/cha, +6 str
Natural AC: +8
Speed: land 60ft, fly 100ft (average)
Breath: cone of sonic, 2d10 & cone of maddening wails, 1 wisdom damage. Both are limited to 10ft range.
Qualities: immunity to sonic, Frightful Presence, SR 15

Mercury (forgotten realms, dragons of faerun)
Stats: 3HD/2LA, Tiny
Adjustments: +2 con, +4 dex
Natural AC: +2
Speed: land 60ft, fly 200ft (perfect)
Breath: ine of fire, 1d8
Qualities: immunity to fire, vulnerability to cold, protected sight

Mist (forgotten realms, dragons of faerun)
Stats: 3HD/2LA, Tiny
Adjustments: +2 con
Natural AC: +2
Speed: land 40ft, fly 100ft (average)
Breath: cone of fire, 2d6 & line of slime, sickens 1d6+1 rounds
Qualities: immunity to acid and fire, mist form(allowed to cast as a mist)

Oceanus (draconomicon)
Stats: 7HD/4LA, Small
Adjustments: +4 str/con/int/cha
Natural AC: +7
Speed: land 40ft, fly 100ft (average), swim 60ft
Breath: line of lightning, 2d8 & cone of tranquility (dazes), 1d6+1 rounds
Qualities: amphibious, immunity to electricity

Pyroclastic (draconomicon)
Stats: 7HD/4LA, Medium
Adjustments: +4 con, +6 str
Natural AC: +6
Speed: land 60ft, fly 100ft (poor), climb 40ft, burrow 45ft
Breath: cone of fire/sonic, 2d6 & disintegrating line (save or die)
Qualities: immunity to fire and sonic, Frightful Presence, SR 14

Radiant (draconomicon)
Stats: 9HD/4LA, Medium
Adjustments: +4 dex/con/int, +6 str/wis/cha
Natural AC: +5
Speed: land 60ft, fly 150ft (average)
Breath: line of force, 2d10 & cone of light (blinds), 1d6+1 rounds
Qualities: immunity to light effects

Rattelyr (3e, forgotten realms, shining south)
Stats: 2Hd/2LA, Tiny
Adjustments: -2 cha, +2 con
Natural AC: +2
Speed: land 60ft, burrow 30ft
Breath: cone of fire, 1d6
Qualities: resistance to electricity 20, immunity to fire, rattle, tremorsense 60ft

Red (mm/srd)
Stats: 7HD/4LA, Medium
Adjustments: +4 con, +6 str
Natural AC: +6
Speed: land 40ft, fly 150 (poor)
Breath: cone of fire, 2d10
Qualities: immunity to fire, vulnerability to cold

Rust (draconomicon)
Stats: 6HD/4LA, Small
Adjustments: -4 int/cha, +2 str/con
Natural AC: +6
Speed: land 60ft, fly 100ft (average), burrow 45ft.
Breath: line of acid, 2d4 & cone of rust (destroys metal)
Qualities: metal resistance (dr 5/magic or non-metal), rusting bite, SR 13

Sand (3e, sandstorm)
Stats: 3HD/2LA, Tiny
Adjustments: none
Natural AC: +4
Speed: land 30ft, burrow 20ft, fly 80ft (average)
Breath: cone of dust, 1d4
Qualities: immunity to fire, tremorsense 60 ft.

Shadow (draconomicon)
Stats: 4Hd/3LA, Tiny
Adjustments: +2 con, +4 int/wis/cha
Natural AC: +7
Speed: land 80ft, fly 150ft (average)
Breath: cone of energy drain, 1 negative level
Qualities: energy drain immunity, SR 12

Silver (mm/srd)
Stats: 7HD/4LA, Small
Adjustments: +2 str/con, +4 int/wis/cha
Natural AC: +6
Speed: land 40ft, fly 100ft (average)
Breath: cone of cold, 2d8 & cone of paralyzing gas, 1d6+1 rounds.
Qualities: alternate form, immunity to acid and cold, cloudwalking, vulnerability to fire

Song (3e/3.5, forgotten realms, monsters of faerun)
Stats: 5HD/5LA, Tiny
Adjustments: -2 str, +2con, +4 int/wis, +6 cha
Natural AC: +4
Speed: land 40ft, fly 150ft (average)
Breath: cone of electricity, 2d6
Qualities: change shape, true seeing, tongues, light, darkness, electricity and poison immunity

Steel (forgotten realms, dragons of faerun)
Stats: 4HD/2LA, Small
Adjustments: +2 con/cha
Natural AC: +3
Speed: land 60ft, fly 150ft (average), swim 30ft
Breath: line of acid, 1d6 & cone of poison, 1 con damage then 1 min later again.
Qualities: alternate form, immunity to acid, SR 16, spells; sorcerer 1st + knowledge & trickery

Styx (draconomicon)
Stats: 5HD/5LA, Small
Adjustments: +2 str/con
Natural AC: 4
Speed: land 60ft, swim 60ft, burrow 20ft.
Breath: line of acid, 1d6 (persists for 3 rounds) & cone of stupefying, 1 int damage
Qualities: amphibious, constrict, improved grab, immunity to poison and disease, Styx adaptation, SR 13

Tarterian (draconomicon)
Stats: 8HD/4LA, Medium
Adjustments: +4 con/int/wis/cha, +3 str
Natural AC: +7
Speed: land 60ft, fly 150ft (poor)
Breath: line of force, 2d8 &  cone of will-sapping, –2 saves/attack/ability/skill/damage rolls for 1 round.
Qualities: force resistance, strength of will, freedom of movement, Frightful Presence, SR 15

White (mm/srd)
Stats: 3HD/LA2, Tiny
Adjustments: -4 int/cha, +2 con
Natural AC: +2
Speed: land 60ft, burrow 30ft, fly 150ft (average), swim 60ft
Breath: cone of cold, 1d6
Qualities: icewalking, immunity to cold, vulnerability to fire
I already added the Incarnum Dragon to my copy.

*

The following have no LA entries if anyone knows if they were errated to have LA you should post and make it known to me please.

Monster Manual II
Amethyst, Crystal, Emerald, Sapphire, Topaz.

Oriental Adventures
Yu Lung (Carp Dragon), Chiang Lung (River Dragon), Li Lung (Earth Dragon), Lung Wang (Sea Dragon), Pan Lung (Coiled Dragon), Shen Lung (Spirit Dragon), T'ien Lung (Celestial Dragon), Tun Mi Lung (Typhoon Dragon).

Brown/Deep/Song dragons from Monster of Faerun were updated to have an LA listing in another Faerun book but I forgot which one. Any clue so I can both quote the source and double check the Fang dragon wasn't updated too?

: Re: dragon PC races
: Suzerain May 21, 2010, 05:19:35 PM
Drow of the Underdark has the Deep Dragon at +3 LA instead of 4 (pages 114-117). Other than that, I don't know.

Maybe you should add the ones in the first post you don't have? Missing are: Faerie, Fang (both Draconomicon), Spire (Sharn: City of Towers), and Hex & Tome Dragons (Dragon #343).

That's good info you got there, though.

edit: While I'm at it...

Amethyst: +4 LA
Crystal: +5 LA
Emerald: +4 LA
Sapphire: +2 LA
Topaz: +4 LA

from here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a
: Re: dragon PC races
: PhaedrusXY May 21, 2010, 05:33:47 PM
I'd like if you all took a moment to glance at this and tell me any True Dragons I missed.
Dragonwrought kobolds?  :D :smirk
: Re: dragon PC races
: The_Mad_Linguist May 21, 2010, 06:59:30 PM
Missing orange, purple, and yellow.
: Re: dragon PC races
: archangel.arcanis May 21, 2010, 07:22:47 PM
all of the oriental dragons got LAs in draconomicon, back side of the page full of tables for the core dragons LA per age category.
: Re: dragon PC races
: PlzBreakMyCampaign December 09, 2010, 04:08:25 PM
Someone up on the 3.0/3.5 updating from previous editions:

http://www.enworld.org/cc/converted/view_d.php?DragonID=12

Are their RAW methods to do this?
: Re: dragon PC races
: SorO_Lost December 09, 2010, 04:54:55 PM
Oh hey, have an update.

: True Dragon List

:
Amphi (3e, dragonlance, beastiary of kynn)
Stats: 1HD/2LA, Tiny
Alignment: Always NE
Adjustments: -2 str
Natural AC: +1
Speed: land 20ft, burrow 10ft, swim 60ft
Breath: line of acid, 1d6
Qualities: amphibious, immunity to acid, improved grab, swallow whole
Spellcasting: Mature Adult

Amethyst (3e, gem, monster manual II)
Stats: 6HD/4LA, Small
Alignment: Always N
Adjustments: +2 str/dex/con
Natural AC: +5
Speed: 40ft, fly 100ft (average), burrow 20ft, swim 10ft
Breath: line of force, 2d8 (can deal nonlethal)
Qualities: force resistant, poison immunity
Spellcasting: Juvenile

Aquatic (3e, dragonlance, beastiary of kynn)
Stats: 3HD/3LA, Tiny
Alignment: Always CG
Adjustments: +2 dex/con/int/cha, +4 wis
Natural AC: +3
Speed: land 20ft, swim 40ft
Breath: out of water; cone of cold 1d6 & in water; cone of slow cloud, cloud lasts 1d6 minutes and the effect lasts for 1d6+1 rounds
Qualities: alternate form, continual flame, immunity to acid and cold, vulnerable to fire, waterbreathing
Spellcasting: Young

Battle (planar, draconomicon)
Stats: 5HD/2LA, Tiny
Alignment: Always NG
Adjustments: +2 str/cha, +4 con
Natural AC: +5
Speed: land 40ft, fly 100ft (average)
Breath: cone of sonic energy, 2d6 & cone of fear (shakens), 4d6 rounds.
Qualities: immunity to sonic
Spellcasting: -

Black (mm/srd)
Stats: 4HD/3LA, Tiny
Alignment: Always CE
Adjustments: -2 int/cha, +2 con
Natural AC: +3
Speed: land 60ft, fly 100ft (average)
Breath: line of acid, 2d4
Qualities: Immune to acid, water breathing
Aging: gains fp, dr 5/magic, sr 17 at young adult
Spellcasting: Young Adult

Blue (mm/srd)
Stats: 6HD/4LA, Small
Alignment: Always LE
Adjustments: +2 str/con
Natural AC: +5
Speed: land 40ft. burrow 20ft, fly 100 (average)
Breath: line of lightning, 2d8
Qualities: immunity to electricity, create/destroy water 3/day
Aging: gains fp, dr 5/magic, sr 19 at young adult
Spellcasting: Juvenile, cleric & air/evil/law

Brass (mm/srd)
Stats: 4HD/2LA, Tiny
Alignment: Always CG
Adjustments: +2 con
Natural AC: +3
Speed: land 60ft, burrow 30ft, fly 150 (average)
Breath: line of fire, 1d6 & cone of sleep, 1d6+1 rounds.
Qualities: immunity to fire, speak with animals (at will), vulnerability to cold
Spellcasting: Young, cleric & chaos/knowledge

Bronze (mm/srd)
Stats: 6HD/LA4, Small
Alignment: Always LG
Adjustments: +2 str/con, +4 int/wis/cha
Natural AC: +5
Speed: land 40ft, fly 100ft (average)
Breath: line of lightning, 2d6 & cone of repulsion (can only move away), 1d6+1 rounds
Qualities: immunity to electricity, water breathing, speak with animals
Spellcasting: Young, cleric & animal/law/water

Brown (3e/3.5, forgotten realms, monsters of faerun)
Stats: 6HD/2LA, Medium
Alignment: Always NE
Adjustments: +2 int/wis/cha, +4 str/con
Natural AC: +3
Speed: land 60ft, burrow 60ft
Breath: line of acid, 2d6
Qualities: acid immunity, tremorsense
Spellcasting: Juvenile

Copper (mm/srd)
Stats: 5HD/2LA, Tiny
Alignment: Always CG
Adjustments: +2 con/int/wis/cha
Natural AC: +4
Speed: land 40ft, fly 100ft (average)
Breath: line of acid, 2d4 & cone of slow gas, 1d6+1 rounds.
Qualities: immunity to acid, spider climb
Spellcasting: Young, cleric & chaos/earth/trickery

Chaos (planar, draconomicon)
Stats: 6HD/4LA, Small
Alignment: Any C
Adjustments: +2 int, +4 con/wis, +6 cha
Natural AC: +5
Speed: land 60ft, fly 150ft (average)
Breath: line of energy (random prime type), 2d4 & cone of confusion, 1d6+1 rounds.
Qualities: immunity to compulsion effects
Spellcasting: -

Chiang (3e, lung-river, oriental advantures)
Stats: 16HD/LA, Large
Alignment: Usually LN
Adjustments: +2 dex, +8 int/con, +10 str/wis/cha
Natural AC: +15
Speed: 60ft, fly 100ft (poor), swim 120ft
Breath:
Qualities: polymorph self, water breathing, cause rain, control weather, augury, divination, bane, bless
Spellcasting:

Crystal (3e, gem, monster manual II)
Stats: 5HD/5LA, Small
Alignment: Always CN
Adjustments: +2 str/con
Natural AC: +4
Speed: 40ft, fly 100ft (average), burrow 5ft, swim 40ft
Breath: cone of light, 2d6 & blinded 1d4 for rounds if they fail the breath's save
Qualities: cold immunity
Spellcasting: Adult

Deep (3e/3.5, forgotten realms, monsters of faerun)
Stats: 6HD/3LA (dotu), Tiny
Alignment: Always CE
Adjustments: +2 con/wis/cha, +4 int
Natural AC: +5
Speed: land 40ft, fly 100ft (average)
Breath: cone of acid, 2d8
Qualities: true seeing, detect magic, charm immunity, cold and fire resistance 10
Spellcasting: Juvenile, cleric & earth/evil/trickery

Emerald (3e, gem, monster manual II)
Stats: 6HD/4LA, Small
Alignment: Always LN
Adjustments: +2 str/dex, +4 int/wis/cha
Natural AC: +5
Speed: 40ft, fly 100ft (average), burrow 5ft, swim 60ft
Breath: cone of sonic, 2d6 & frot vs deafen for 1d4+1 rounds
Qualities: object reading, sonic immunity
Spellcasting: Young

Ethereal (planar, draconomicon)
Stats: 4HD/2LA, Tiny
Alignment: Always TN
Adjustments: -2 str, +2 con/wis
Natural AC: +3
Speed: land 60ft, fly 60ft (poor)
Breath: cone of force, 2d6
Qualities: immune to ether cyclones
Spellcasting: -

Fang (draconomicon)
Stats: 3HD/3LA, Tiny
Alignment: Always CN
Adjustments: -2 int/cha, +2 con/wis
Natural AC: +2
Speed: 60ft, fly 90ft (average)
Breath: no breath, bite does 1d2 con drain using breath DC.
Qualities: Increased damage, trip, sound inmitation, detect magic, read magic
Spellcasting: Young Adult, cleric & chaos/death/magic/protection

Fire (3e, dragonlance, beastiary of kynn)
Stats: 4HD/4LA, Medium
Alignment: Always CE
Adjustments: -4 int/wis/cha, +4 str/con
Natural AC: +3
Speed: land 40ft, fly 150ft (poor), burrow 20ft
Breath: cone of fire, 2d6 burns for 1d4 fire damage per round till they save (-1 DC per round)
Qualities: heat, immunity to fire, vulnerability to cold
Spellcasting: Adult

Frost (3e, dragonlance, beastiary of kynn)
Stats: 5HD/5LA, Small
Alignment: Always CE
Adjustments: -2 int, +2 str/con
Natural AC: +3
Speed: land 40ft, fly 100ft (average), burrow 20ft
Breath: cone of cold, 2d6 also breath deals 1 cha damage a seperate save negs
Qualities: leewalking, immunity to cold, vulnerability to fire
Spellcasting: Juvenile

Gold (mm/srd)
Stats: 8HD/4LA, Medium
Alignment: Always LG
Adjustments: +4 con/int/wis/cha, +6 str.
Natural AC: +7
Speed: land 60ft, fly 200ft (poor), swim 60ft
Breath: cone of fire, 2d10 & cone of weakening gas, 1 str damage
Qualities: alternate form, immunity to fire, vulnerability to cold, water breathing
Spellcasting: Young, cleric & law/luck/good

Gray (3e, dragonlance, beastiary of kynn)
Stats: 3HD/LA2, Tiny
Alignment: Always CE (as white dragon)
Adjustments: -2 str/cha
Natural AC: +2
Speed: land 60ft, burrow 30ft, fly 150ft (average), swim 60ft
Breath: cone of cold, 1d6
Qualities: icewalking, immunity to cold, vulnerability to fire
Spellcasting: Juvenile

Green (mm/srd)
Stats: 5HD/5LA, Small
Alignment: Always LE
Adjustments: +2 str/con
Natural AC: +4
Speed: land 4ft. fly 100ft (average)
Breath: cone of acid, 2d6
Qualities: immunity to acid, water breathing
Spellcasting: Juvenile

Howling (planar, draconomicon)
Stats: 9HD/4LA, Medium
Alignment: CE or CN
Adjustments: -2 wis, +4 con/int/cha, +6 str
Natural AC: +8
Speed: land 60ft, fly 100ft (average)
Breath: cone of sonic, 2d10 & cone of maddening wails, 1 wisdom damage. Both are limited to 10ft range.
Qualities: immunity to sonic, Frightful Presence, SR 15
Spellcasting: -

Incarnum (magic of incarnum)
Stats: 4HD/2LA,
Adjustments: +2 con, +4 int/cha
Natural AC: +3
Speed: 40ft, fly 100 (average)
Breath: cone of resonating energy that only hurts living targets, 1d8 and drains 1 essentia
Qualities: Meldshaping
Aging: gains fp, dr 5/magic, sr 22 at young adult
Spellcasting: Wyrmling, Meldshaping (melds = 1/2 age cat, ms lvl = age cat x 2, max ess = 1/2 age cat).

Li (3e, lung-earth, 6oriental advantures)
Stats: 14HD/LA, Medium
Alignment: Usually N
Adjustments: +2 wis/cha, +2 con, +8 str
Natural AC: +13
Speed: 60ft, fly 150ft (poor), swim 40ft, burrow 45ft
Breath: -
Qualities: earthquake immunity, earthquake, roar, tunneling, stone shape
Spellcasting: -

Lung Wang (3e, lung-sea, oriental advantures)
Stats: 17HD/LA, Large
Alignment: Usually N
Adjustments: +2 int, +4 wis/cha, +8 con, +16 str
Natural AC: +16
Speed: 10ft, swim 60ft
Breath: cone of steam, 8d10 fire damage
Qualities: water breathing, scaly command, fire immunity, obscuring mist
Spellcasting: -

Mercury (forgotten realms, dragons of faerun)
Stats: 3HD/2LA, Tiny
Alignment: ?
Adjustments: +2 con, +4 dex
Natural AC: +2
Speed: land 60ft, fly 200ft (perfect)
Breath: line of fire, 1d8
Qualities: immunity to fire, vulnerability to cold, protected sight
Spellcasting: Young

Mist (forgotten realms, dragons of faerun)
Stats: 3HD/2LA, Tiny
Alignment: ?
Adjustments: +2 con
Natural AC: +2
Speed: land 40ft, fly 100ft (average)
Breath: cone of fire, 2d6 & line of slime, sickens 1d6+1 rounds
Qualities: immunity to acid and fire, mist form(allowed to cast as a mist)
Spellcasting: Young

Oceanus (planar, draconomicon)
Stats: 7HD/4LA, Small
Alignment: Always NG
Adjustments: +4 str/con/int/cha
Natural AC: +7
Speed: land 40ft, fly 100ft (average), swim 60ft
Breath: line of lightning, 2d8 & cone of tranquility (dazes), 1d6+1 rounds
Qualities: amphibious, immunity to electricity
Spellcasting: -

Pan (3e, lung-coiled, oriental advantures)
Stats: 13HD/4LA, Medium
Alignment: Usually LN
Adjustments: +2 dex/int, +4 con/wis/cha, +6 str
Natural AC: +12
Speed: 40ft, fly 100ft (poor), swim 60ft
Breath: -
Qualities: water breathing, charm monster, scaly command, bane, bless, ventriloquism, when wet it deals 1d6 damage when hit by nonfire melee
Spellcasting: -

Pyroclastic (planar, draconomicon)
Stats: 7HD/4LA, Medium
Alignment: LE or NE
Adjustments: +4 con, +6 str
Natural AC: +6
Speed: land 60ft, fly 100ft (poor), climb 40ft, burrow 45ft
Breath: cone of fire/sonic, 2d6 & disintegrating line (save or die)
Qualities: immunity to fire and sonic, Frightful Presence, SR 14
Spellcasting: -

Radiant (planar, draconomicon)
Stats: 9HD/4LA, Medium
Alignment: Always LG
Adjustments: +4 dex/con/int, +6 str/wis/cha
Natural AC: +5
Speed: land 60ft, fly 150ft (average)
Breath: line of force, 2d10 & cone of light (blinds), 1d6+1 rounds
Qualities: immunity to light effects
Spellcasting: -

Rattelyr (3e, forgotten realms, shining south)
Stats: 2Hd/2LA, Tiny
Adjustments: -2 cha, +2 con
Natural AC: +2
Speed: land 60ft, burrow 30ft
Breath: cone of fire, 1d6
Qualities: resistance to electricity 20, immunity to fire, rattle, tremorsense 60ft
Spellcasting: Young Adult

Red (mm/srd)
Stats: 7HD/4LA, Medium
Alignment: Always CE
Adjustments: +4 con, +6 str
Natural AC: +6
Speed: land 40ft, fly 150 (poor)
Breath: cone of fire, 2d10
Qualities: immunity to fire, vulnerability to cold
Spellcasting: Young, cleric & chaos/evil/fire

Rust (planar, draconomicon)
Stats: 6HD/4LA, Small
Alignment: LE or LN
Adjustments: -4 int/cha, +2 str/con
Natural AC: +6
Speed: land 60ft, fly 100ft (average), burrow 45ft.
Breath: line of acid, 2d4 & cone of rust (destroys metal)
Qualities: metal resistance (dr 5/magic or non-metal), rusting bite, SR 13
Spellcasting: -

Sand (3e, sandstorm)
Stats: 3HD/2LA, Tiny
Alignment: Always CN
Adjustments: none
Natural AC: +4
Speed: land 30ft, burrow 20ft, fly 80ft (average)
Breath: cone of dust, 1d4
Qualities: immunity to fire, tremorsense 60 ft.
Spellcasting: Young Adult

Sapphire (3e, gem, monster manual II)
Stats: 5HD/2LA, Tiny
Alignment: Always LN
Adjustments: +2 dex/con/int/wis/cha
Natural AC: +3
Speed: 40ft, fly 100ft (average), burrow 15ft, swim 10ft
Breath: cone of sonic, 2d4 & will vs paniced for 1d4 rounds
Qualities: electricity immunity, spider climb
Spellcasting: Young

Shadow (draconomicon)
Stats: 4Hd/3LA, Tiny
Alignment: Always CE
Adjustments: +2 con, +4 int/wis/cha
Natural AC: +7
Speed: land 80ft, fly 150ft (average)
Breath: cone of energy drain, 1 negative level
Qualities: energy drain immunity, SR 12
Spellcasting: Juvenile, cleric & chaos/evil/trickery

Shen (3e, lung-spirit, oriental advantures)
Stats: 15HD/-LA, Large
Alignment: Usually LN
Adjustments: +4 int, +6 str/dex/con/wis/cha
Natural AC: +14
Speed: 60ft, fly 100ft (poor), swim 40ft
Breath: -
Qualities: water breathing, lightning and poison immunity, fire velnerability, scaly command, vermin barrier, bane, bless, water fire 2d6
Spellcasting: -

Silver (mm/srd)
Stats: 7HD/4LA, Small
Alignment: Always LG
Adjustments: +2 str/con, +4 int/wis/cha
Natural AC: +6
Speed: land 40ft, fly 100ft (average)
Breath: cone of cold, 2d8 & cone of paralyzing gas, 1d6+1 rounds.
Qualities: alternate form, immunity to acid and cold, cloudwalking, vulnerability to fire
Spellcasting: Young, cleric & air/good/law/sun

Song (3e/3.5, forgotten realms, monsters of faerun)
Stats: 5HD/5LA, Tiny
Alignment: CG or CN
Adjustments: -2 str, +2con, +4 int/wis, +6 cha
Natural AC: +4
Speed: land 40ft, fly 150ft (average)
Breath: cone of electricity, 2d6
Qualities: change shape, true seeing, tongues, light, darkness, electricity and poison immunity
Spellcasting: Juvenile, cleric & healing/travel/trickery

Steel (forgotten realms, dragons of faerun)
Stats: 4HD/2LA, Small
Alignment: ?
Adjustments: +2 con/cha
Natural AC: +3
Speed: land 60ft, fly 150ft (average), swim 30ft
Breath: line of acid, 1d6 & cone of poison, 1 con damage then 1 min later again.
Qualities: alternate form, immunity to acid, SR 16, spells; sorcerer 1st + knowledge & trickery
Spellcasting: Wrymling

Styx (planar, draconomicon)
Stats: 5HD/5LA, Small
Alignment: Always NE
Adjustments: +2 str/con
Natural AC: 4
Speed: land 60ft, swim 60ft, burrow 20ft.
Breath: line of acid, 1d6 (persists for 3 rounds) & cone of stupefying, 1 int damage
Qualities: amphibious, constrict, improved grab, immunity to poison and disease, Styx adaptation, SR 13
Spellcasting: -

T'ien (3e, lung-celestial, oriental advantures)
Stats: 17HD/-LA, Large
Alignment: Usually LN
Adjustments: +2 dex, +8 con/int, +10 wis/cha, +18 str
Natural AC: +
Speed: 40ft, fly 21750ft (poor), swim 30ft
Breath: 8d10
Qualities: water breathing, control weather, pyrotechnics
Spellcasting: -

Tarterian (planar, draconomicon)
Stats: 8HD/4LA, Medium
Alignment: NE or CE
Adjustments: +4 con/int/wis/cha, +3 str
Natural AC: +7
Speed: land 60ft, fly 150ft (poor)
Breath: line of force, 2d8 &  cone of will-sapping, –2 saves/attack/ability/skill/damage rolls for 1 round.
Qualities: force resistance, strength of will, freedom of movement, Frightful Presence, SR 15
Spellcasting: -

Topaz (3e, gem, monster manual II)
Stats: 7HD/4LA, Small
Alignment: Always CN
Adjustments: +2 str/con, +4 int/wis/cha
Natural AC: +6
Speed: 40ft, fly 100ft (average), burrow 5ft, swim 60ft
Breath: cone of dehydration, 2d8 (1 cubic foot of water per point of damage)
Qualities: cold immunity, waterbreathing
Spellcasting: Juvenile

Tun Mi (3e, lung-typhoon, oriental advantures)
Stats: 16HD/-LA, Large
Alignment: Usually NE
Adjustments: +2 dex/int, +6 wis/cha, +8 con, +14 str
Natural AC: +16
Speed: 0ft, fly 100ft (poor), swim 60ft
Breath: -
Qualities: water breathing, air and water immunity, divine wind, darkness
Spellcasting: -

White (mm/srd)
Stats: 3HD/LA2, Tiny
Alignment: Always CE
Adjustments: -4 int/cha, +2 con
Natural AC: +2
Speed: land 60ft, burrow 30ft, fly 150ft (average), swim 60ft
Breath: cone of cold, 1d6
Qualities: icewalking, immunity to cold, vulnerability to fire
Spellcasting: Adult

Yu (3e, lung-carp, oriental advantures)
Stats: 6HD/1LA, Tiny
Alignment: Usually N
Adjustments: -6 int, -2 wis/cha, +2 con, +6 dex
Natural AC: +5
Speed: 20ft, swim 90ft
Breath: None, this dragon sucks.
Qualities: inferior dragon abilities, water breathing
Spellcasting: None (only has 3 age catogries)

Dragons Not Included
Lesser Dragons (including faerie, spire, and the like). They are not True Dragons.
Hex & Tome Dragons (Dragon #343), they are not in a WotC book.

Gem Dragon LA Source (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a)

Added the OA and gem dragons.

***

Empowering your True Dragon

Sovereign Archetypes Dragons of Eberron (p.30)
Trade in your True Dragon's access to cleric & domain spells for one of these, TDs without cleric/domain access lose nothing.

Child of Eberron: learn Druidic, class skills: survival, cast druid spells as arcane spells
Flame of the Forge: CL+2 for crafting, class skills: craft & UMD, a few more spells known, retain essense like an artificer
Fortune's Fang: can cast spells from cleric and feast, luck and trickery domains as arcane spells, class skills: bluff & disguise
Guide of the Weak: can cast spells from cleric and community and protection domain as arcane spells, class skills: diplomacy & intimidate
Lightkeeper: divine aura as a cleric, take Extra Turning to gain turning as a cleric 4/day, can cast spells from cleric and glory, law, sun and war as arcane spells.
Loredrake: effective sorcerer level +2, reduces hit dice to d10s
Master of the Hoard: spells from cleric and charm, commerce and travel domains as arcane spells, class skills: appraise, diplomacy, sense motive
Passion's Flame: gain rage, spells from cleric and madness and passion as arcane spells, class skills: perform
Stalking Wyrm: gain favored enemies as if a ranger equal to your sorcerer levels, bonus feat Track, spells from Cleric and air, animal and earth domains as arcane spells, class skills: hide, move silently, survival
Wyrm of War: proficient with all simple & martial weapon, and all armor and shields, bonus feat every 4 hd, treat sorcerer level as initiator level and trade spell slots for maneuvers/stances from Tiger Claw

***

Age Abuse
True Dragons gain numerous abilities based on their age. Size increases, more breath weapon damage, and bonuses to their abilities scores are just the start of things. Upon hitting the Young Adult stage they gain the Frightful Presence ability, normally gain some form of Damage Reduction (typically DR 5/Magic) and Spell Resistance and both improve later on. Dragons that have Innate Spellcasting further enhance their ability to cast spells and also gain racial hit dice which in turn gives bab/saves/feats.

Using a spell to temporally age your self can be used either as a combat boost or an out of combat spell enhancer. For instance a two year old Steel Dragon with a caster level of fourteen can cast River's Ravages aging him/her self twenty eight years and into the Juvenile age category granting them enough HD (+9) and spellcasting(+6) to have the Epic Spellcasting & Improved Spell Capacity feats for 14 rounds. Even dragons geared for combat will love the additional hp/bab/saves/feats gained from the extra HD.

River's Ravages (dragonlance, legends of the twins)
Age 2 years per caster level for 1 round per caster level.
Quick and easy. Weighes in at a 2nd level spell meaning really early access.

Bestow Curse (phb/srd, bovd)
Ages you into your next age category
Duration of permanent but doesn't stack with it's self. As a DM I'd penalize your XP gains as your ECL has "permanently" changed but your DM may not.

Greater Bestow Curse (spc, bovd)
Ages you into your next age category, again
Duration of "till you complete a miniquest" and stacks with the nongreater version since it's a different spell. Fair call to say you age your self two categories with it.

Hasten The End (dragonlance, holy orders of the stars)
Bestows a negative level and ages you 10 years per round
The duration is concentration. Combine with either feats, skill tricks, shapechanging for extra actions or whatever else and you can access your Ancient Wrym stage outside, or even inside a well timed, battle.

: Re: dragon PC races
: Nytemare3701 December 10, 2010, 07:46:51 AM
Nominating Mercury Dragon (Shadow Template)X/RogueX/ScoutX as the most awesome divebombing dragon ever.
: Re: dragon PC races
: raith0 December 10, 2010, 10:35:19 PM
quick question about mercury and steel dragons where are you getting the racial ability mods for them or what are you basing them off of?

was looking to play one in starting this coming thursday and wasnt sure
: Re: dragon PC races
: SorO_Lost December 11, 2010, 12:31:31 AM
I got the racial modifiers per MM's rules of doing so.
Ability Scores for Monster PCs: While a monsters statistics give the ability scores for a typical creature of a certain kind, any “monster” creature that becomes an adventurer is definitely not typical. Therefore, when creating a PC from a creature, check to see if the creature’s entry has any ability scores of 10 or higher. If so, for each score, subtract 10 (if the score is even) or 11 (if the score is odd) to get the creature’s modifier for that ability based on its race or kind. Generate the character’s ability scores as normal, then add the racial ability modifiers to get their ability scores.

However, in case you are not aware of it. I did NOT used the separate table for intelligence. You know, that table that operates differently from the rest and works on the concept any monster without a listed racial modifier gets +2 int. Ask your DM if a race with LA, naturally intelligent to take class levels, also gains a +2 int bonus just because.

If he goes for it, all listed entries have an additional +2 to intelligence.
: Re: dragon PC races
: The_Mad_Linguist December 11, 2010, 12:34:00 AM
However, in case you are not aware of it. I did NOT used the separate table for intelligence. You know, that table that operates differently from the rest and works on the concept any monster without a listed racial modifier gets +2 int.

It doesn't.  Read it closer.  It just influences low intelligences, not high ones.
: Re: dragon PC races
: raith0 December 11, 2010, 09:34:13 AM
i thought that was how you were doing it but i wanted to double check.  incase i missed it in dragonomicon or some where else for.  thankyou
: Re: dragon PC races
: SorO_Lost December 12, 2010, 02:42:31 AM
However, in case you are not aware of it. I did NOT used the separate table for intelligence. You know, that table that operates differently from the rest and works on the concept any monster without a listed racial modifier gets +2 int.

It doesn't.  Read it closer.  It just influences low intelligences, not high ones.
Thought it was all monsters. Good to know.
: Re: dragon PC races
: The_Mad_Linguist December 17, 2010, 12:44:10 AM
Op should note that the races of the dragon "automatic qualification" quote applies just to "dragons", not "true dragons".  So a pseudodragon or wyvern can take advantage of it as well.