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The Thinktank => Min/Max It! => Topic started by: Juggernaut2889 on October 13, 2011, 04:19:49 AM

Title: Wizard Hunting
Post by: Juggernaut2889 on October 13, 2011, 04:19:49 AM
So in the current campaign, our goal is to kill the "Circle of 8", which are the 8 rulers of the continent.  Each ruler is a high level Ultimate Magus, one specializing in each school of magic, and their own school of wizards.  We'll be fighting (hopefully) these guys one at a time, since essentially they each have their own city.  Also, they each have some feat that I feel like I should have heard of that stacks their Sorcerer and Wizard caster level for any spell cast to just about anywhere it would apply.  So I'm trying to think of an optimal character for this game.  SR becomes effectively useless, can't always rely on saves for dealing with no-save magic, a caster will have a rough time do to the number of dispels they would face along with the level it could be cast at.  Also I have no clue what the 8 may have for companions.

Rules:
ECL 9
No Sorcerers (Campaign Rule)
No Familiars (See Above)
No Vecna-Blooded
No Factotum
No BoED

These are the rules I've gotten so far, the rest generally needs DM's approval.  Your thoughts?
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: Littha on October 13, 2011, 04:23:54 AM
Basically you are screwed
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: Flay Crimsonwind on October 13, 2011, 07:19:34 AM
Basically you are screwed
+1

High level ultimate magus? With a city's worth of people and a school of wizards under them? The only way you'll stand a chance at this current level would be to find a way to make your spells undispellable and go with casters. Might be you could get by with similarly prepared psionics. Otherwise... what level can a character afford an anti-magic torc? Maybe some Locate City Bomb and just blow the fuck out of the whole place before they know they're even being scryed?
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: Dictum Mortuum on October 13, 2011, 07:35:39 AM
Basically you are screwed

This.
I lol'ed.
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: Nytemare3701 on October 13, 2011, 08:21:21 AM
Go get your self Vecna blooded and pray for some DM intervention. A well played caster will beat you regardless, so it all boils down to how high your DM sets the bar.
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: OblivionSmurf83 on October 13, 2011, 08:26:12 AM
Go get your self Vecna blooded and pray for some DM intervention. A well played caster will beat you regardless, so it all boils down to how high your DM sets the bar.

Vecna blooded is banned according to the DM.

Plot is all you can count on at this point.

EDIT: According to the OP I should say!
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: Nytemare3701 on October 13, 2011, 08:30:12 AM
No Vecna-Blooded
[/quote]

Missed that. Sorry. I'd get myself a Tinfoil Hat (shrink item shenanigans). It will go a long way in protecting you.
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: Mixster on October 13, 2011, 08:50:21 AM
Cheater of Mystra could be quite effective here. You should basically be living in an anti-magic field.

You still need a way to stop them divining your plan though.

Consider the following:
Cheater of Mystra w/ regeneration (from the fiendish codex thingie), freedom of movement, mind blank, protection from nonlethal damage and AMF up 24/7. Could do relatively well against those casters.
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: radionausea on October 13, 2011, 09:03:08 AM
Also, they each have some feat that I feel like I should have heard of that stacks their Sorcerer and Wizard caster level for any spell cast to just about anywhere it would apply. 

I'm almost entirely certain that there is no such feat - which is why you haven't heard of it. A needlessly cruel homebrew feat given you're already going to be up against an (entire city + wizard school + much higher level than you NPC) x8.
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: Endarire on October 13, 2011, 09:26:30 AM
Maybe Psions will work if you play it as "Psionics are different."  Otherwise, I vote Cheater of Mystra who begs Mystra for Deny Weave on these guys.
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: Cagemarrow on October 13, 2011, 09:39:56 AM
Lucid Dream assassin may have a slight chance, if the wizards sleep instead of using lesser restoration and meditation instead.

Without the ability to prevent divination from tracking down you or your associates you don't stand a chance. There are just too many ways for a caster to protect themselves, especially if they have advanced knowledge of your arrival.
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: OblivionSmurf83 on October 13, 2011, 10:40:56 AM
Is your DM just an arse? The fact that he's specifically banned Vecna blooded suggests he wants you to be able to be found by the Wizards. So, either you've got no chance at all, or you're going to win through plot means. Either way, no amount of optimisation will save you.

With that in mind, I suppose Cheater of Mystra is your best bet.
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: Nunkuruji on October 13, 2011, 12:38:31 PM
Probably Theurgic Specialist, if it's not a homebrew kick in the nuts feat

Theurgic Specialist 
[General]
(DR325 p62)
Specialist Wizard 3rd 
any other spellcasting
class
When you cast spells from your Specialized School of Magic from any of your spellcasting classes, your
effective Caster level is the sum of all your spellcasting classes

NOTE: this is the sum of your CLASSES, not CASTER LEVELS. Not really that impressive when you can just make up lost CLs with Practiced Caster anyways.


AFAIK, Psiotheurgist (arcane + psionics), is the only one that adds up Caster Levels for great power .


There's a PrC in FR that's like Halruuan Magehunter or some such. AMF x/day, good saves. However, it's not full casting progression, which is a downer.

General strategy might be to PrC dip as much as possible for save boosts.

Damp Power psionics power

No familiar I assume due to the easy command of having it prepared with a dispel magic/counterspell.

Divine Defiance immediate action counterspelling

Scrying can be frustrated by Amulet of Deception, Deathglance Locket and Circlet of Convocation. (items from DR319)
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: Rebel7284 on October 13, 2011, 12:52:34 PM
Runescarred Berserker can cast a few spells including AMF too.

High concentration with those save-replacing maneuvers is good to have too.
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: dark_samuari on October 13, 2011, 04:33:27 PM
Why not actually go with a plot-heavy offense?

You can't possibly hope to win via strict mechanics so any solution has to recognize this. Also, assuming your DM is somewhat reasonable he'll want you to win. It is, ideally, his hope, is for you guys to succeed or else he is frankly a poor DM.

So what does this leave, intrigue. I propose you try to turn the wizards against each other. After all, at least from what I have almost always seen in the character optimization communities, high level wizards are the most paranoid. You in turn must use this to your advantage (because honestly it is one of only a few you really have...) and capitalize on it. Disruption of their infrastructure is the next vital step. If you make them so busy handling a structural collapse of their city (be it economic or however) than you can have a sense of chaos to hide behind.

Now, how do you go about this? Well it jumps out at me that the first thing is you have to eliminate the 'divination expert.' He is your biggest obstacle and is the one that can really screw with your whole operation. Now, without Venca-Blooded you'll have some difficulty but there are other ways to hide oneself. I think the Joker Bard over at GitP explains to a greater deal how one may go about this.

Now, you have a focus but you can continue to do more. Now this is going to rely more on you but how do you go about destroying the infrastructure of the city? Start pumping out drugs throughout the city (which is cheap, addictive & deadly)? Bomb the city banks or government offices? Target the police/militia/city guard?

If a high-level mage is the equivalent to Batman than you have to become to D&D equivalent of the Joker.
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: X-Codes on October 13, 2011, 06:37:00 PM
We need a better definition of "high level," not to mention how long it's going to be until you're actually expected to take on these guys.

Basically, you want to be a Cleric.  Clerics can juice their CLs better than any Wizard ever, even without Master Spellthief (the feat I believe your DM is giving these Wizards).  Check this out:

Level 13 Cleric:
Adept Spirit spell (Cleric 2, MoI): +1 CL
Orange Ioun Stone: +1 CL
Masterwork Holy Symbol: +1 CL (something that will boost a Necromancy [Death, Evil] spell)
Elder Giant Magic Feat: +3 CL
Agony: +2 CL
Necromancer Domain: +1 CL
Ankh of Ascention: +4 CL
Bead of Karma: +4 CL
Divine Spell Power Feat: +4 CL

Use this and DMM to cast a CL 34 Persistent Greater Consumptive Field in the morning, then walk through a hamlet, making your CL cap out at 51.  That's a CL of 51 at level 13 (well, you have to kill 38 critters within the area in order to get the full bonus, but still, just walk into a densely-populated area).  Your other persistent spells can also benefit from a number of these abilities again, pumping their CLs to 64, 68, or maybe even 70.  If these spells are 10 min/level, you don't even need to bother with Persistent Spell, they're lasting over 10 hours already, unextended.  Oh, and you can even Persist a Spell Resistance spell for SR 80.  When it's that ridiculously high, then it actually kinda matters.

Check out the resource here for even more potential boosts: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872350/Raising_Caster_Level
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: Mixster on October 13, 2011, 07:48:21 PM
Also, they each have some feat that I feel like I should have heard of that stacks their Sorcerer and Wizard caster level for any spell cast to just about anywhere it would apply.

I'm almost entirely certain that there is no such feat - which is why you haven't heard of it. A needlessly cruel homebrew feat given you're already going to be up against an (entire city + wizard school + much higher level than you NPC) x8.

Master spellthief.

If a high-level mage is the equivalent to Batman than you have to become to D&D equivalent of the Joker.
Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80704) you go!
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: X-Codes on October 13, 2011, 08:04:41 PM
MIXTER, WHY!?  Why must you tempt the unholy creature into this thread!?  The being that makes Pazuzu tremble with a concussion (from facepalming).

Read: You don't want to be a Monk.  You want to be a Cleric.  Badly.  The more evil, the better.  Evil wins D&D.
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: BeholderSlayer on October 13, 2011, 08:13:41 PM
This all depends on how high the level that you will be is.

As I always suggest in a high optimization game, you can be godlike as a Wizard/Hathran/Incantatrix. Miracle up an Acorn of Far Travel, or use persistent Unfettered Heroism. Abuse Simulacrum heavily, and utilize Unfettered Heroism or your acorn to persist as many spells as you like as well as cast any spell you know spontaneously. You'll have to memorize spells you want to quicken. CL 40 tossing 20th level spells spontaneously from a massive spellbook is always a force to be reckoned with.

Or you could just be a beholder mage.  :smirk
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: sirpercival on October 13, 2011, 08:18:26 PM

Or you could just be a beholder mage/ur-priest/mystic theurge.  :smirk

FTFY.
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: Tr011 on October 13, 2011, 08:29:47 PM
If a high-level mage is the equivalent to Batman than you have to become to D&D equivalent of the Joker.
.
Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5496158#post5496158) you go! (The Joker Bard, not that monk, it gives perfect ideas for playing games with the wizards via plot, you can use that to defeat them imo)

Btw you are really dead if you fight them directly if they have Master Spellthief + 3 times Practised Spellcaster, because it means this means a total CL of HD+17 or something (not quite sure about the prerequirements and that stuff). So you either totally lame them out (pretty hard to do since they sound like Uber-Wizards) or you take their power piece-by-piece.
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: X-Codes on October 13, 2011, 08:38:39 PM
Your typical Master Spellthief build, without something like Ur-Priest, Sublime, Chord, Triadic Knight, or whatever other shenanigans like that, isn't going to break CL 40 with meaningful spells.  On the other hand, there are so many divine-only spell boosts that it's just sick.
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: Juggernaut2889 on October 13, 2011, 09:14:56 PM
Probably Theurgic Specialist, if it's not a homebrew kick in the nuts feat

Theurgic Specialist 
[General]
(DR325 p62)
Specialist Wizard 3rd 
any other spellcasting
class
When you cast spells from your Specialized School of Magic from any of your spellcasting classes, your
effective Caster level is the sum of all your spellcasting classes

NOTE: this is the sum of your CLASSES, not CASTER LEVELS. Not really that impressive when you can just make up lost CLs with Practiced Caster anyways.


AFAIK, Psiotheurgist (arcane + psionics), is the only one that adds up Caster Levels for great power .


There's a PrC in FR that's like Halruuan Magehunter or some such. AMF x/day, good saves. However, it's not full casting progression, which is a downer.

General strategy might be to PrC dip as much as possible for save boosts.

Damp Power psionics power

No familiar I assume due to the easy command of having it prepared with a dispel magic/counterspell.

Divine Defiance immediate action counterspelling

Scrying can be frustrated by Amulet of Deception, Deathglance Locket and Circlet of Convocation. (items from DR319)

That may be the feat he's talking about.  I'm seeing him tonight and I'm going to double check that he knows what he's doing  :p.
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: Flay Crimsonwind on October 13, 2011, 09:37:39 PM

Or you could just be a beholder mage/ur-priest/mystic theurge.  :smirk

FTFY.
Hahaha, this will get a table thrown at you, but basically gets to spell win in the earth's crust from space with the mages magic penis, a spell you'd invent solely for the purpose of writing your name on worlds because you'd gotten bored destroying them.

Can't believe that cleric hadn't occurred to me, though again, anti-magic torc. Cast all your divine spells, kill all their arcane spells. There has to be another way to avoid scrying.
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: Lycanthromancer on October 13, 2011, 09:42:31 PM
Build a diplomancer. Convince everyone in the city without immunity to mind-affecting effects to enact a guerrilla war against those who do.

Have your wizard companion start Gating in CR 4000 templated critters, diplomacize them into submission, then send them out to crush.

Alternately, diplomacize the level 1 commoners, build a repeating trap of Mind Seed, wait a week, then have your self-minions go on a (subtle) rampage.
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: sirpercival on October 13, 2011, 10:48:53 PM

Or you could just be a beholder mage/ur-priest/mystic theurge.  :smirk

FTFY.
Hahaha, this will get a table thrown at you, but basically gets to spell win in the earth's crust from space with the mages magic penis, a spell you'd invent solely for the purpose of writing your name on worlds because you'd gotten bored destroying them.

Can't believe that cleric hadn't occurred to me, though again, anti-magic torc. Cast all your divine spells, kill all their arcane spells. There has to be another way to avoid scrying.

I had the fun idea of a supervillain which was an advanced beholder uttercold assault necro: beholder mage 3/ur-priest 2/contemplative 1/true necromancer 9.  CL 20 double 9's.  Who cares if TN drops caster levels if you're building off two fast progression prestige classes? 
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: Tr011 on October 13, 2011, 10:52:35 PM
Rules:
ECL 9
Remember that. So you won't get double 9s.
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: JaronK on October 13, 2011, 10:59:49 PM
I'd say just go for stealth and full out offense and hope you catch one by surprise.  This is definitely a time to consider being a Necropolitan... the immunities would REALLY be nice, especially against the Enchanter.  Just remember to disguise yourself as being living... no spell sees through the disguise skill.

JaronK
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: sirpercival on October 13, 2011, 11:01:17 PM
Would this be a good scenario for the chicken wight army?
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: BeholderSlayer on October 13, 2011, 11:15:24 PM
Beholder Mage 9 gets into level 9 spells  :P
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: Lycanthromancer on October 13, 2011, 11:15:51 PM
Go thrallherd and send an army of thralls at them one at a time, each with a different means of providing death?

Or get a scroll of Simulacrum get an efreeti with Wishes, then Wish for more efreeti simulacrums, and eventually get yourself to the point of having NI solars riding NI great wyrm gold dragons all carrying ring gates through which your NI army of efreet are casting NI spells (x3) via Wish using Flyby Attack before immediately teleporting out to your flowing time demiplane so they can teleport back and do it all over again in the same round. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7298120&postcount=11)
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: Solo on October 13, 2011, 11:33:41 PM
Have you considered playing monks?
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: Ikeren on October 14, 2011, 01:23:38 AM
Clearly we're working on the premise that it's obvious that real success is non-optional; so we want the most reasonable build that will survive the plot and be cool and fun to play.

I suggest monk.
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: JaronK on October 14, 2011, 04:24:53 AM
Would this be a good scenario for the chicken wight army?

ALL scenarios are good for the chicken wight army.

JaronK
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: SorO_Lost on October 14, 2011, 04:50:36 AM
+1 to playing a Monk. The DM wants to throw BBEG Ultimate Maguses (-as?) at you and ban some options because he wants to rape your character. Make him play down to your character's level or end the campaign in the first session, either way it is the only victory you will ever get out of him.
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: Bester on October 14, 2011, 05:20:27 AM
+1 to playing a Monk. The DM wants to throw BBEG Ultimate Maguses (-as?) at you and ban some options because he wants to rape your character. Make him play down to your character's level or end the campaign in the first session, either way it is the only victory you will ever get out of him.

Make sure somebody plays a RAW truenamer.  Make sure all the monks are VoP.  I can see this approach working.  He's expecting optimization, hit him with the opposite.  "I hit it with my fist." is supposed to be a valid tactic in 3.5 after all.
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: SneeR on October 14, 2011, 05:46:58 AM
The question "How high-level are they?" is chief here. Even the Evoker will be a threat if he is ECL 13+.

But I would definitely say go after the evoker first. Not only will it be a cool and flashy battle, but if you stock up on elemental immunities, he won't be able to even scratch you.

The Diviner is second-highest priority, highest if he is at a reasonable level.
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: Mixster on October 14, 2011, 06:07:04 AM
I support Beholder Mage 2/Rainbow Servant 7.
Yeah sure, at ECL 9 you will only have 9th level spells and 3 domains to choose from, but in 3 levels bam, dual 9s on your Int score.
Remember to be a Divine Minion elf Necropolitan (or ghost) with Aberrant Wild shape, that way you qualify for Faeries mysteries initiate with D12 HD.

Alternatively I hear good things about Illithid Savant Thrallherds.
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: X-Codes on October 15, 2011, 12:02:22 AM
Clearly we're working on the premise that it's obvious that real success is non-optional; so we want the most reasonable build that will survive the plot and be cool and fun to play.

I suggest monk.
Success is optional.  CLERIC.
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: Juggernaut2889 on October 15, 2011, 03:47:26 AM
We need a better definition of "high level," not to mention how long it's going to be until you're actually expected to take on these guys.

Basically, you want to be a Cleric.  Clerics can juice their CLs better than any Wizard ever, even without Master Spellthief (the feat I believe your DM is giving these Wizards).  Check this out:

Level 13 Cleric:
Adept Spirit spell (Cleric 2, MoI): +1 CL
Orange Ioun Stone: +1 CL
Masterwork Holy Symbol: +1 CL (something that will boost a Necromancy [Death, Evil] spell)
Elder Giant Magic Feat: +3 CL
Agony: +2 CL
Necromancer Domain: +1 CL
Ankh of Ascention: +4 CL
Bead of Karma: +4 CL
Divine Spell Power Feat: +4 CL

Use this and DMM to cast a CL 34 Persistent Greater Consumptive Field in the morning, then walk through a hamlet, making your CL cap out at 51.  That's a CL of 51 at level 13 (well, you have to kill 38 critters within the area in order to get the full bonus, but still, just walk into a densely-populated area).  Your other persistent spells can also benefit from a number of these abilities again, pumping their CLs to 64, 68, or maybe even 70.  If these spells are 10 min/level, you don't even need to bother with Persistent Spell, they're lasting over 10 hours already, unextended.  Oh, and you can even Persist a Spell Resistance spell for SR 80.  When it's that ridiculously high, then it actually kinda matters.

Check out the resource here for even more potential boosts: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872350/Raising_Caster_Level

I think I'm going to go with this plan, go Cleric1 of Orcus(Evil and Necromancy Domains)/Archivist8.  Since I'm only level 9 I'm going to have to settle for the standard Consumptive Field, maybe I'll max my Diplomacy and offer to "help out" at a local hospital.  After getting the necessary amount of kills I'll immediately cast Spell Resistance.  Maybe I'll send some Giant Vermin (40HD Scorpions) enhanced with Venomfire (d6/CL no cap acid damage with tail) over to one of the schools, but not before casting Detect Scrying and Greater Invisibility and having my left over turn attempts be used for Divine Defiance. 
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: Kethrian on October 15, 2011, 05:12:54 AM
Spiked chain fighter/ToB class with Mage Slayer line of feats, Improved Trip & Improved Disarm, Shadow Stride/Shadow Blink, and an item that perma-radiates AMF?  Getting large size should help tremendously, too.  That way you can screw up nearly everything those casters could hope to do by teleporting beside them and locking them down.  Also, perma-AMF means you can't be targetted by divinations, so it'll be much harder for them to anticipate you...

Remember, if they are wielding something you want to disarm, trip first and use the disarm as the free follow-up.  +4 to your opposed roll, because you are meleeing a prone foe, and his is -4 because he's meleeing while prone.
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: Dawnmor on October 15, 2011, 03:56:56 PM
If you want to Kill these UM's just go Artificer, ask for alot of money, make tons of wands of force, and get Empower, Admixture, and maximize.  Your set!.  Thatrs like 200 damage if you drain like 10 charges or 11 charges.  That is a good way of making him die slowly and painfully.
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: X-Codes on October 15, 2011, 04:15:06 PM
If you want to Kill these UM's just go Artificer, ask for alot of money, make tons of wands of force, and get Empower, Admixture, and maximize.  Your set!.  Thatrs like 200 damage if you drain like 10 charges or 11 charges.  That is a good way of making him die slowly and painfully.

Until they cast Ray Deflection.
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: Dawnmor on October 15, 2011, 04:17:28 PM
Ray of deflection blocks rays, Orbs of force arent rays.  Not to mention, how many casters are seriously going to have Ray of Deflection memorized ?
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: X-Codes on October 15, 2011, 04:19:34 PM
Ray of deflection blocks rays, Orbs of force arent rays.  Not to mention, how many casters are seriously going to have Ray of Deflection memorized ?

Ultimate Magi?  Who are half Sorcerer?  Every. Single. One.
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: SorO_Lost on October 15, 2011, 06:04:37 PM
Ray of deflection blocks rays, Orbs of force arent rays.  Not to mention, how many casters are seriously going to have Ray of Deflection memorized ?

1. Did you even read the spell or did you get as far as reading the name and pull that ruling out of your ass?
2. No one prepares it, why? Ray Deflection is deprecated; please use Exemplars of Evil's Friendly Fire instead.
3. Every spellcaster I run Persists Friendly Fire if able.
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: Bozwevial on October 15, 2011, 06:08:24 PM
Ray of deflection blocks rays, Orbs of force arent rays.  Not to mention, how many casters are seriously going to have Ray of Deflection memorized ?
It blocks ranged touch attacks, not just rays.
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: X-Codes on October 15, 2011, 06:20:09 PM
Ray of deflection blocks rays, Orbs of force arent rays.  Not to mention, how many casters are seriously going to have Ray of Deflection memorized ?

1. Did you even read the spell or did you get as far as reading the name and pull that ruling out of your ass?
2. No one prepares it, why? Ray Deflection is deprecated; please use Exemplars of Evil's Friendly Fire instead.
3. Every spellcaster I run Persists Friendly Fire if able.
Definitely a nice find.  I still haven't plumed the depths of that book.  A given UM might not be able to persist it, but they'll definitely pack it on their Sorcerer side, right next to Ruin Delver's Fortune.
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: BeholderSlayer on October 16, 2011, 11:02:43 AM
Ray Deflection is a staple defense spell against spellcasters. A better question is what kind of retarded arcane caster doesn't have it memorized?
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: Caelic on October 16, 2011, 01:33:52 PM
At least one of you should probably be a half-elf bard Diplomancer.

(Evil wizard's minions storm into the room for the fiftieth time.)

Minion:  "Aha!  In the name of our master, you die!"

Diplomancer: "Whoa, dudes, chill out."

Minion: "Uhh..."

Diplomancer: "We're TOTALLY not the droids you're looking for."

Minion: "What's a droid?  We weren't looking for droids..."

Diplomancer: "Then we can't be the ones you were looking for, right?"

Minion: "Uhh...yeah...that makes sense..."

(Minions leave.)


Seriously; if the wizard has a city full of people, it's to your advantage to be able to put those people to work for you.  Sure, he can mind-rape them back into compliance, but that's resource intensive for him, whereas the worst danger to you is that you'll go hoarse.
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: Kajhera on October 16, 2011, 02:19:16 PM
At least one of you should probably be a half-elf bard Diplomancer.

(Evil wizard's minions storm into the room for the fiftieth time.)

Minion:  "Aha!  In the name of our master, you die!"

Diplomancer: "Whoa, dudes, chill out."

Minion: "Uhh..."

Diplomancer: "We're TOTALLY not the droids you're looking for."

Minion: "What's a droid?  We weren't looking for droids..."

Diplomancer: "Then we can't be the ones you were looking for, right?"

Minion: "Uhh...yeah...that makes sense..."

(Minions leave.)


Seriously; if the wizard has a city full of people, it's to your advantage to be able to put those people to work for you.  Sure, he can mind-rape them back into compliance, but that's resource intensive for him, whereas the worst danger to you is that you'll go hoarse.

Have him bind Naberius and he can get a head-start on the going hoarse part.  :D
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: Foxwander on October 16, 2011, 05:12:17 PM
Fuck it!  Make a party of eight 9th-level viking necromancers and then just Locate City of the Dead Bomb the lot of them in one coordinated strike.

What's a Locate City of the Dead Bomb you say?  It's a Locate City Bomb that's easier to pull of and doesn't require all the shaky rules.

Ingredients: Locate City (lvl 1) + Snow Casting (+1 lvl) + Flash Frost spell (+1 lvl) + Lord of the Uttercold (+0 lvl) + Fell Drain (+2 lvls) = 5th level spell that's guaranteed to hit everyone for 1 damage and 1 negative level = every 1HD character, animal, or vermin in a 90 mile radius will be a wight tomorrow. Let the Circle of Eight deal with that for awhile.  :D
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: Caylin on October 16, 2011, 05:29:10 PM
Obviously the setup is totally impossible at your lvl if expecting equal shenanigans on both sides. Say you make a lvl 9 char that can nuke the universe. With equal op. the dm will have 9 mages of much higher lvl than you that can nuke the universe 5 times per round.

Play whatever you want and expect the dm to scale challenges to your lvl/ability. Possibly for laughs with his über setup go the opposite way and make a party of tier 5-6 chars and force him to obliterate you (and the campaign with it) or really scale down his impossible bosses.
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: Lycanthromancer on October 16, 2011, 07:45:34 PM
Ignore his adventures and make your own?

"I cleared this dungeon and stake my claim in the name of Moradin!"

"That's...my basement!"

"There were rats."
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: jojolagger on October 17, 2011, 01:52:19 AM
Would this be a good scenario for the chicken wight army?
Interesting way to almost never be found.
Superior Invisibility + Mind Blank. If your group rules telepathy is mind-affecting, then only some gods can see you. At which point, you've won.

Also, Fog cloud is a great way to mess with casters, level 2 spell, kills any line of sight the caster would have, effectively counter-spelling.
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: Tshern on October 17, 2011, 04:56:09 PM
Would this be a good scenario for the chicken wight army?
Interesting way to almost never be found.
Superior Invisibility + Mind Blank. If your group rules telepathy is mind-affecting, then only some gods can see you. At which point, you've won.
Touchsight is one example that negates this.
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: SorO_Lost on October 17, 2011, 05:17:18 PM
Would this be a good scenario for the chicken wight army?
Interesting way to almost never be found.
Superior Invisibility + Mind Blank. If your group rules telepathy is mind-affecting, then only some gods can see you. At which point, you've won.
Touchsight is one example that negates this.
You can't touch me if I'm incorporeal?
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: Bozwevial on October 17, 2011, 07:23:35 PM
Would this be a good scenario for the chicken wight army?
Interesting way to almost never be found.
Superior Invisibility + Mind Blank. If your group rules telepathy is mind-affecting, then only some gods can see you. At which point, you've won.
Touchsight is one example that negates this.
You can't touch me if I'm incorporeal?
Transdimensional Touchsight.
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: Kethrian on October 17, 2011, 09:36:00 PM
Would this be a good scenario for the chicken wight army?
Interesting way to almost never be found.
Superior Invisibility + Mind Blank. If your group rules telepathy is mind-affecting, then only some gods can see you. At which point, you've won.
Touchsight is one example that negates this.
You can't touch me if I'm incorporeal?
Transdimensional Touchsight.

Or Gauntlets of Ghost Fighting....
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: jojolagger on October 17, 2011, 11:00:25 PM
Would this be a good scenario for the chicken wight army?
Interesting way to almost never be found.
Superior Invisibility + Mind Blank. If your group rules telepathy is mind-affecting, then only some gods can see you. At which point, you've won.
Touchsight is one example that negates this.
Actually, considering how Touchsight basically Psionic Tremorsense, I could see It being ruled in favor of Superior Invisibility.
Of course, even if ruled against me, this just means I need a portable way to break LoE. So Superior Invisibility + Mind blank + Third effect.
Also, thanks for pointing out the hole, looks like I'll need one more spell effect to become unfindable.
EDIT: Being inside a telekinetic sphere should be sufficient to kill LoE.
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: Gavinfoxx on October 17, 2011, 11:34:57 PM
Remember... even if you have infinite SR (ie, spell immunity) AND are in the middle of an antimagic field, as long as no one bans Conjuration, they can still blast you from afar...
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: Kethrian on October 18, 2011, 12:08:49 AM
Remember... even if you have infinite SR (ie, spell immunity) AND are in the middle of an antimagic field, as long as no one bans Conjuration, they can still blast you from afar...

And that's exactly why I gave the build idea that I did....
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: jojolagger on October 18, 2011, 12:20:15 AM
Remember... even if you have infinite SR (ie, spell immunity) AND are in the middle of an antimagic field, as long as no one bans Conjuration, they can still blast you from afar...
Provided they can see me, which they can't, and provided they have LoE, which they don't.
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: Maat_Mons on October 18, 2011, 12:56:56 AM
Being inside a telekinetic sphere should be sufficient to kill LoE.

Just to be mean, burrowing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#burrowingPower) transdimensional touchsight.  

You may want to be undead to deal with lifesense (Libris Mortis 28).  You also may want to wear Gwaeron's boots (Magic of Faerun 158) to deal with mundane tracking.  
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: jojolagger on October 18, 2011, 01:49:24 AM
Just to be mean, burrowing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#burrowingPower) transdimensional touchsight.  
Interestingly, Burrowing doesn't work that way. The person that Touchsight is cast on is the only target, and your the only person you can cast it on. Bravo, you can manifest Touchsight on yourself through walls. Good Job.


You may want to be undead to deal with lifesense (Libris Mortis 28).  You also may want to wear Gwaeron's boots (Magic of Faerun 158) to deal with mundane tracking.
Life sight is only that you produce light, and should be covered by Superior Invisibility. I don't think you can track totally invisible flying creatures, but if DM allows such silliness, the boots should be good.
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: Maat_Mons on October 18, 2011, 04:24:40 AM
Life sight is only that you produce light, and should be covered by Superior Invisibility.

According to the section in Dungeon Master's Guide on invisibility:

Quote
An invisible burning torch still gives off light, as does an invisible object with a light spell (or similar spell) cast upon it.

So, I'm pretty sure lifesense still works. 
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: Tshern on October 18, 2011, 09:16:00 AM
Would this be a good scenario for the chicken wight army?
Interesting way to almost never be found.
Superior Invisibility + Mind Blank. If your group rules telepathy is mind-affecting, then only some gods can see you. At which point, you've won.
Touchsight is one example that negates this.
Actually, considering how Touchsight basically Psionic Tremorsense, I could see It being ruled in favor of Superior Invisibility.
Of course, even if ruled against me, this just means I need a portable way to break LoE. So Superior Invisibility + Mind blank + Third effect.
Also, thanks for pointing out the hole, looks like I'll need one more spell effect to become unfindable.
EDIT: Being inside a telekinetic sphere should be sufficient to kill LoE.
Keeping all that on would be a bummer thoug. But, as pointed out, Lifesense. Also, I have never played under a DM who ruled Mind blank blocks True seeing, See invisibility or other, non-targeted divinations. I have heard of people who do that though.
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: Juggernaut2889 on October 22, 2011, 01:50:23 PM
Page 62 of Dragon Magazine #325.

Theurgic Specialist

"When casting a spell from your specialist school (off the spell list of any spellcasting class you have), you can add the caster levels of all your spellcasting classes to determine your caster level."

Turns out he's right about this feat. 
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: Locnil on October 22, 2011, 02:24:12 PM
Just out of curiosity, did he modify it or si that the RAW version?
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: Juggernaut2889 on October 22, 2011, 03:47:06 PM
That's exact wording. 

If it hits the fan with my current character, I'm going to make a Charlatan and hope I survive to level 10 and hopefully let the cities kill them for me.
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: Zombieboots on October 22, 2011, 10:02:16 PM
So in the current campaign, our goal is to kill the "Circle of 8", which are the 8 rulers of the continent.  Each ruler is a high level Ultimate Magus, one specializing in each school of magic, and their own school of wizards.  We'll be fighting (hopefully) these guys one at a time, since essentially they each have their own city.  Also, they each have some feat that I feel like I should have heard of that stacks their Sorcerer and Wizard caster level for any spell cast to just about anywhere it would apply.  So I'm trying to think of an optimal character for this game.  SR becomes effectively useless, can't always rely on saves for dealing with no-save magic, a caster will have a rough time do to the number of dispels they would face along with the level it could be cast at.  Also I have no clue what the 8 may have for companions.

Just out of curiosity, so this is Circle of 8 as in Greyhawk's "The Circle of Eight"? So you mean....

(Possible Identities your DM may not want you to know below)
[spoiler]Bigby, Leomund, Otto, Rary, Tenser.... Mordenkainen...?

I suggest buying that power from Bigby's Tomb. That might automatically allow you to kill one of them instantly. Just show up with your character next session and ask for XP. =D
[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: JaronK on October 23, 2011, 04:32:28 PM
Page 62 of Dragon Magazine #325.

Theurgic Specialist

"When casting a spell from your specialist school (off the spell list of any spellcasting class you have), you can add the caster levels of all your spellcasting classes to determine your caster level."

This makes my brain hurt.

JaronK
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: Lycanthromancer on October 23, 2011, 05:48:11 PM
Page 62 of Dragon Magazine #325.

Theurgic Specialist

"When casting a spell from your specialist school (off the spell list of any spellcasting class you have), you can add the caster levels of all your spellcasting classes to determine your caster level."

This makes my brain hurt.

JaronK
So, my wizard 1/cleric 1 adds those together to get Wizard CL 2/Cleric CL 1, adds those together to get Wizard CL 3/Cleric CL 1, adds those together to get Wizard CL 4/Cleric CL 1?
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: sirpercival on October 23, 2011, 05:50:21 PM
Page 62 of Dragon Magazine #325.

Theurgic Specialist

"When casting a spell from your specialist school (off the spell list of any spellcasting class you have), you can add the caster levels of all your spellcasting classes to determine your caster level."

This makes my brain hurt.

JaronK
So, my wizard 1/cleric 1 adds those together to get Wizard CL 2/Cleric CL 2, adds those together to get Wizard CL 4/Cleric CL 4, adds those together to get Wizard CL 8/Cleric CL 8?

No, because it only checks once, when you cast a particular spell.  The spell looks at your character sheet and says, "OK, we've got wizard CL 2 and cleric CL 2 (because you're an illumian), so I'm CL 4."  Then it goes and lasts for four rounds before taking its lunch break.
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: b100d_arrowz on October 23, 2011, 09:33:41 PM
Play a Kender. Steal all the things
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: Lycanthromancer on October 23, 2011, 09:41:24 PM
Play a Kender. Steal all the things
We had a kender DMPC at one point. Most annoying character ever. It stole everything we had with no rolls, and any attempt to kill him rebounded the attacks on us.

So I just ignored what he did, kept all my stuff in my inventory and acted as if he wasn't there, as did all the other players. If the DM threw a fit, we sat there and stared at him, refusing to  play, until he gave in.

We had to go home a few times because he refused to budge, but he relented when he realized that not allowing us to play meant he couldn't either.
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: Mixster on October 24, 2011, 04:04:22 AM
Page 62 of Dragon Magazine #325.

Theurgic Specialist

"When casting a spell from your specialist school (off the spell list of any spellcasting class you have), you can add the caster levels of all your spellcasting classes to determine your caster level."

This makes my brain hurt.

JaronK
How it this any better than Master Spellthief?
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: Rebel7284 on October 24, 2011, 02:13:44 PM
Page 62 of Dragon Magazine #325.

Theurgic Specialist

"When casting a spell from your specialist school (off the spell list of any spellcasting class you have), you can add the caster levels of all your spellcasting classes to determine your caster level."

This makes my brain hurt.

JaronK
How it this any better than Master Spellthief?

You can always do both :D
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: sirpercival on October 24, 2011, 02:32:08 PM
It's better than MS because it stacks Sorc and Wiz levels (or whatever else), not just spellthief and X levels.  Though it only applies to one school.
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: Mixster on October 24, 2011, 02:49:24 PM
It's better than MS because it stacks Sorc and Wiz levels (or whatever else), not just spellthief and X levels.  Though it only applies to one school.
Erm, that's not how Master Spellthief works, here's the text on it:
[spoiler]
Your spellthief levels stack with levels of other arcane spellcaster classes (that is, levels of any class that grants arcane spellcasting other than the spellthief) for the purpose of determining what level of spell you can steal. For example, a 4th-level spellthief/4th-level wizard could steal spells of up to 4th level, as if he were an 8th-level spellthief. Your spellthief and arcane spellcaster levels also stack when determining your caster level for all arcane spells. The character described above would have a caster level of 8th for both his spellthief spells and his wizard spells. In addition, you do not incur a chance of arcane spell failure for arcane spells cast or stolen from other classes, but only if you are wearing light armor. You incur the normal arcane spell failure chance when wearing medium or heavy armor or when using a shield.[/spoiler]
In bold it tells us that your spellthief and all your arcane spellcaster levels stack. Granted, this other feat gets you the ability to stack your cleric stuff as well, but only for one school, and you don't get the added effect of casting in light armour.
Quote
You can always do both
What would my caster level then become?
Say I'm a Spellthief1/Sorc 1/Wizard 3/Ultimate Magus 10. Casting spells from my speciality school, I'd reckon it'd become a CL of 47?
What if I stuck in some levels of sublime chord? Or knight of the weave?
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: b100d_arrowz on October 24, 2011, 10:03:30 PM
Play a Kender. Steal all the things
We had a kender DMPC at one point. Most annoying character ever. It stole everything we had with no rolls, and any attempt to kill him rebounded the attacks on us.

So I just ignored what he did, kept all my stuff in my inventory and acted as if he wasn't there, as did all the other players. If the DM threw a fit, we sat there and stared at him, refusing to  play, until he gave in.

We had to go home a few times because he refused to budge, but he relented when he realized that not allowing us to play meant he couldn't either.
I let one of my PCs be a Kender... once... in a one shot... he stole the midboss's extra rod of dragon control (campaign specific item, does what it says  :D) and then beat him him opposed rolls for the dragons... and then with the random item chart pulled out... a gem of fire control.


In a different campaign that same PC played a Kender again... he disrupted a demon summoning ritual, split the fabric of reality, and summoned alien spaceships in some order... and then died in a tumult  :rollseyes
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: Gavinfoxx on October 24, 2011, 10:40:22 PM
We had a kender DMPC at one point. Most annoying character ever. It stole everything we had with no rolls, and any attempt to kill him rebounded the attacks on us.

So I just ignored what he did, kept all my stuff in my inventory and acted as if he wasn't there, as did all the other players. If the DM threw a fit, we sat there and stared at him, refusing to  play, until he gave in.

We had to go home a few times because he refused to budge, but he relented when he realized that not allowing us to play meant he couldn't either.

That is... BRILLIANT.  I must hear more about this story and DM!
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: Lycanthromancer on October 24, 2011, 10:46:35 PM
We had a kender DMPC at one point. Most annoying character ever. It stole everything we had with no rolls, and any attempt to kill him rebounded the attacks on us.

So I just ignored what he did, kept all my stuff in my inventory and acted as if he wasn't there, as did all the other players. If the DM threw a fit, we sat there and stared at him, refusing to  play, until he gave in.

We had to go home a few times because he refused to budge, but he relented when he realized that not allowing us to play meant he couldn't either.

That is... BRILLIANT.  I must hear more about this story and DM!
He was the same DM that gang-raped my baby gold dragon because I wrote CG on his alignment, and the DM thought that he should be LG instead.

Also, no targeting of spells or breath weapons or reach weapons because we didn't use an encounter map.

He was an idiot, to put it lightly, and a horrible person, to boot.

If I remembered his name and address, I'd post it here so people could send him hate-mail.
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: Gavinfoxx on October 24, 2011, 11:43:44 PM
That... is really bad.  Did he have some neurological or mental illness or something?
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: Lycanthromancer on October 24, 2011, 11:46:56 PM
That... is really bad.  Did he have some neurological or mental illness or something?
Yes. "I am a dickhead" syndrome.
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: nijineko on October 25, 2011, 04:55:49 AM
mob template? as applied to the denizens of each city?

seems social engineering would be a reasonable tactical approach.

you could always write a ginormous backstory, larger than the dm is likely to read, and bury in there that you came from another location where the psionics are different option is in effect with relation to all the locales you will be fighting them in. ^^

speaking of psionics, metafaculty will get past all of their defenses, damp power has already been mentioned, protection from spells, many other options.
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: b100d_arrowz on October 25, 2011, 04:56:29 PM
That... is really bad.  Did he have some neurological or mental illness or something?
Yes. "I am a dickhead" syndrome.
Sounds like one of the guys I used to play with... he's the guy that thought it would be a great idea to play a diviner arcane archer... and a teenage dread necromancer who was introduced to the party by being raped... and a Cleric striving to prove Pelor and Vecna were the same deity... and spent 30 minutes arguing over the minutia of the rules  :banghead
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: nijineko on October 25, 2011, 05:38:29 PM
but pelor has already been proven to be evil... why would he need to be vecna?
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: Mixster on October 25, 2011, 05:38:47 PM
That... is really bad.  Did he have some neurological or mental illness or something?
Yes. "I am a dickhead" syndrome.
Sounds like one of the guys I used to play with... he's the guy that thought it would be a great idea to play a diviner arcane archer... and a teenage dread necromancer who was introduced to the party by being raped... and a Cleric striving to prove Pelor and Vecna were the same deity... and spent 30 minutes arguing over the minutia of the rules  :banghead
Sounds like he just rolled up random character concepts.
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: X-Codes on October 25, 2011, 06:54:11 PM
That... is really bad.  Did he have some neurological or mental illness or something?
Yes. "I am a dickhead" syndrome.
Sounds like one of the guys I used to play with... he's the guy that thought it would be a great idea to play a diviner arcane archer... and a teenage dread necromancer who was introduced to the party by being raped... and a Cleric striving to prove Pelor and Vecna were the same deity... and spent 30 minutes arguing over the minutia of the rules  :banghead
Sounds like he just rolled up random character concepts.
Yes, random character concepts generated by darts, a dartboard, and very, very strange fetishes.
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: Mixster on October 25, 2011, 07:32:02 PM
That... is really bad.  Did he have some neurological or mental illness or something?
Yes. "I am a dickhead" syndrome.
Sounds like one of the guys I used to play with... he's the guy that thought it would be a great idea to play a diviner arcane archer... and a teenage dread necromancer who was introduced to the party by being raped... and a Cleric striving to prove Pelor and Vecna were the same deity... and spent 30 minutes arguing over the minutia of the rules  :banghead
Sounds like he just rolled up random character concepts.
Yes, random character concepts generated by darts, a dartboard, and very, very strange fetishes.
There's only one character concept worth having, and that's the one you've thrown darts at.
Title: Re: Wizard Hunting
Post by: sirpercival on October 25, 2011, 07:56:12 PM
There's only one character concept worth having, and that's the one you've thrown darts at.

sigged.