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The Thinktank => Min/Max It! => Topic started by: Placebo_24 on September 24, 2011, 10:41:39 PM

Title: Who can beat Azathoth?
Post by: Placebo_24 on September 24, 2011, 10:41:39 PM
In the Call of Cthulhu d20 book, there are stats for the gods of the Lovecraft mythos.  Azathoth is the most powerful IIRC, and while I've seen some extremely powerful characters on these boards, I don't know how many of them could kill a god, barring Pun Pun of course.

Here are his stats.

Azathoth
Colossal Outsider (Greater God)
Domains: Evil, Chaos, Madness, Death
Hit Dice: 72d8+2091 (2,666 hp)
Initiative: +5 (Dex, Improved Initiative)
Speed: 140 ft., fly 360 ft.
AC: 63 (-8 size, +1 Dex, +40 natural, +20 divine)
Attacks: 6 slam +102 melee
Damage: Slam 4d6+17 (improved critical) + Int drain
Face/Reach: 40 ft. by 40 ft./25 ft.
Special Attacks: Int drain, wail of madness, alter reality, divine celerity, squamous blast
Special Qualities: Divine qualities, remote sensing 20, damage reduction 55/+4, SR 52, darkvision 60 ft., divine fast healing 200, fire resistance 40, cold resistance 40, sonic immunity
Saves: Fort +89, Ref +61, Will +61
Abilities: Str 45, Dex 13, Con 69, Int 3, Wis 12, Cha 34
Skills: Concentration +104, Cthulhu Mythos +71, Knowledge (planes) +71, Hide -15, Listen +66, Spot +3
Feats: Alertness, Cleave, Dodge, Endurance, Great Cleave, Great Fortitude, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical (slam), Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes , Mobility, Power Attack, Spring Attack, Sunder, Toughness, Weapon Focus (slam)
Climate: Any
Organization: Unique
Challenge Rating: 50
Treasure: x5 standard
Alignment: Chaotic Evil
Advancement: None

So, my challenge is, find a character that can kill him.  He actually spawns with minions, but for the purposes of this, we'll have it be a 1v1.
Title: Re: Who can beat Azathoth?
Post by: sirpercival on September 24, 2011, 10:44:21 PM
What are the restrictions?
Title: Re: Who can beat Azathoth?
Post by: Placebo_24 on September 24, 2011, 10:51:33 PM
I assume you mean restrictions on the character?
The only real restriction I have, was nothing infinitely powerful like Pun Pun. Other than that, you can use whatever you want.  Any source is fine.
Title: Re: Who can beat Azathoth?
Post by: BeholderSlayer on September 24, 2011, 11:50:50 PM
Pretty much any level 20 wizard with Craft Contingent Spell, Spontaneous Divination, and a generous interpretation of Sanctum Spell.

Well, and it kinda depends what his "Divine Qualities" happen to be.

Heck, it probably could be pulled off earlier.
Title: Re: Who can beat Azathoth?
Post by: altpersona on September 24, 2011, 11:54:21 PM
+5 init, end of story.
Title: Re: Who can beat Azathoth?
Post by: skydragonknight on September 24, 2011, 11:57:06 PM
Yeah, contingencies are a must. Divine Celerity means he always wins rocket tag and alter reality means you can expect every buff in the game with a decent duration on the guy.

+5 init, end of story.

He doesn't even roll Initiative. ^^
Title: Re: Who can beat Azathoth?
Post by: BeholderSlayer on September 25, 2011, 12:10:59 AM
Yeah, contingencies are a must. Divine Celerity means he always wins rocket tag and alter reality means you can expect every buff in the game with a decent duration on the guy.

+5 init, end of story.

He doesn't even roll Initiative. ^^
From what I'm reading Divine Celerity doesn't do anything to win at Rocket Tag, at least not in the SRD. It's just Haste. Am I missing something?

Oh, and said wizard won't need Spontaneous Divination after all. He'll just need Limited Wish.

Of course, my statements entirely hinge on a highly debatable interpretation of Sanctum Spell that I don't actually believe works anymore.

I do believe that a fairly standard level 20 wizard could off him though. Probably in a single round.
Title: Re: Who can beat Azathoth?
Post by: altpersona on September 25, 2011, 12:48:41 AM
dire tortoise, the wizard dosnt need to roll init either.
Title: Re: Who can beat Azathoth?
Post by: BruceLeeroy on September 25, 2011, 02:36:55 AM
I don't see anything that a Hulking Hurler couldn't take out in one round.
Title: Re: Who can beat Azathoth?
Post by: skydragonknight on September 25, 2011, 03:48:48 AM
Yeah, contingencies are a must. Divine Celerity means he always wins rocket tag and alter reality means you can expect every buff in the game with a decent duration on the guy.

+5 init, end of story.

He doesn't even roll Initiative. ^^
From what I'm reading Divine Celerity doesn't do anything to win at Rocket Tag, at least not in the SRD. It's just Haste. Am I missing something?

Hmm. Confused that with Supreme Initiative. Although now that I check his stats again he doesn't have the prerequisite 29 Dex for either. I call Hax.
Title: Re: Who can beat Azathoth?
Post by: Tr011 on September 25, 2011, 04:09:35 AM
How fun would it be if he gets killed by Magic Missles (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7802.0).
Title: Re: Who can beat Azathoth?
Post by: JaronK on September 25, 2011, 04:17:37 AM
Do divine qualities make him immune to critical hits?  Because a Dragonwrought Kobold TWF crit fisher character might be able to take him out with Devastating Critical... just keep getting crits until he rolls a one.

JaronK
Title: Re: Who can beat Azathoth?
Post by: Endarire on September 25, 2011, 05:09:28 AM
Assuming you could get past Alter Reality, which seems like wish at will...

Hood (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872838/Little_Red_Raiding_Hood_A_Tale_of_38_Guide_to_the_35_Dragoon).  Line up the deities!
Title: Re: Who can beat Azathoth?
Post by: Dictum Mortuum on September 25, 2011, 06:48:41 AM
Only 3 int? :P
Title: Re: Who can beat Azathoth?
Post by: skydragonknight on September 25, 2011, 07:05:22 AM
Only 3 int? :P

Yeah, that's a bit silly. Though to be fair since he has 5x standard wealth for a CR 50, he probably has at least a +8 enhancement, if not higher.
Title: Re: Who can beat Azathoth?
Post by: JaronK on September 25, 2011, 07:26:55 AM
Azathoth is supposed to be barely sentient... powerful as all heck, but more a force of nature than a sentient being.  Int 3 actually seems high.  I'd have made him Int -.

JaronK
Title: Re: Who can beat Azathoth?
Post by: Tr011 on September 25, 2011, 09:15:31 AM
3 Int means you can ignore the 2k HP and just shoot his int to 0 (even with enhancements, that shouldn't be too difficult). But you need a way to pass that gigantic SR. I also see no poison immunity, but the saves are by far too high for poison imo.
Title: Re: Who can beat Azathoth?
Post by: skydragonknight on September 25, 2011, 09:33:09 AM
3 Int means you can ignore the 2k HP and just shoot his int to 0 (even with enhancements, that shouldn't be too difficult). But you need a way to pass that gigantic SR. I also see no poison immunity, but the saves are by far too high for poison imo.

Quote from: SRD
Energy Drain, Ability Drain, Ability Damage

A deity is not subject to energy drain, ability drain, or ability damage.

Ability damage is out. However, ability penalties are not. Are there any ability score penalties for Int (or Dex, which is only 13) that can bring an opponent to 0 in that score?

Edit: found an item (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Robe_of_Powerlessness) that would do it. All you would have to do is bluff the guy into thinking it was a birthday present and ask him to try it on. Since he's a deity of madness, he may actually agree without the Bluff. :D
Title: Re: Who can beat Azathoth?
Post by: sirpercival on September 25, 2011, 09:51:05 AM
Bypassing SR is no problem, be an artificer with Fortify Spell, which has no level cap.  Metamagic Item = infinite spell penetration check.
Title: Re: Who can beat Azathoth?
Post by: WarlockLord on September 25, 2011, 03:49:49 PM
Wizard/Contemplative/Dweomerkeeper launching supernatural rays of stupidity?
Title: Re: Who can beat Azathoth?
Post by: weenog on September 25, 2011, 03:52:01 PM
He doesn't seem to hit very hard.  Maybe a d2 crusader with a little warblade mixed in for IHS and the Diamond Mind counters could survive losing initiative and then one-shot him in return.  That is infinite damage, but very one-sided, I wouldn't call it infinitely powerful.  Just has one very good trick.
Title: Re: Who can beat Azathoth?
Post by: X-Codes on September 25, 2011, 03:54:52 PM
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds him.

This is why deities need Supreme Initiative.
Title: Re: Who can beat Azathoth?
Post by: weenog on September 25, 2011, 03:56:21 PM
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds him.

This is why deities need Supreme Initiative.

Yeah but one-shotting him with a little plastic cocktail sword is funnier.
Title: Re: Who can beat Azathoth?
Post by: Bauglir on September 25, 2011, 04:44:01 PM
Beguiler 20+Ray of Stupidity?

EDIT: Wait, no, immunity to ability damage (and drain) and immunity to mind-affecting effects.
Title: Re: Who can beat Azathoth?
Post by: Midnight_v on September 25, 2011, 04:47:45 PM
The uber-charger. He was on my mind Figured I'd throw him out there. Not the one by Otto, the OTHER one.
Title: Re: Who can beat Azathoth?
Post by: awaken DM golem on September 25, 2011, 04:50:34 PM

... This is why deities need Supreme Initiative.



Yeah, any Greater Deity has 16 to 20 SDA's , but so far they're undefined.


"Special Attacks: Int drain, wail of madness, alter reality, divine celerity, squamous blast"
... could be trouble.

 ???
Title: Re: Who can beat Azathoth?
Post by: Caelic on September 25, 2011, 06:34:19 PM
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds him.



Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"
Title: Re: Who can beat Azathoth?
Post by: oslecamo on September 25, 2011, 06:36:31 PM
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds him.



Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

If you can't kill something that just sits around drooling waiting to be killed and never ever uses any of its abilities, then yes, I supose your character wouldn't count as decent.
Title: Re: Who can beat Azathoth?
Post by: Bauglir on September 25, 2011, 06:36:46 PM
I'm reminded of the World Record damage build that used all those Dirty Tricks. Specifically, the part where the hardest part was to prevent an infinite loop.
Title: Re: Who can beat Azathoth?
Post by: Mixster on September 25, 2011, 06:47:46 PM
How fun would it be if he gets killed by Magic Missles (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7802.0).

sure (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7802.msg284483#msg284483) I just need a way past his, I was acutally thinking of updating that build with War Mage levels to make it deadlier (+2 damage per magic missile is nothing to sneeze at when firing ~500 missiles per round).

EDIT:
However, wouldn't grappling him to death with tentacles be more fun?
Master Spellthief 1/Wizard 3/Arcane Spellcasting classes (including knight of the weave) 5/Sublime Chord 2/Ultimate Magus 9

Should have a caster level around the 10k. Prepare for the tentacle-y doom.
You'll need to get rid of his freedom of movement buff from alter reality though.
Title: Re: Who can beat Azathoth?
Post by: Endarire on September 25, 2011, 09:06:04 PM
A Maximized Empowered ray of clumsiness (Spell Compendium) could bring his DEX to 1.
Title: Re: Who can beat Azathoth?
Post by: Drammor on September 25, 2011, 09:29:23 PM
It looks like have people have found plenty of ways to beat Azzie.

Who wants to try rebuilding him so that none of the builds mentioned could do it in less than 100 rounds, without making him unbeatable?
Title: Re: Who can beat Azathoth?
Post by: weenog on September 25, 2011, 09:33:03 PM
It looks like have people have found plenty of ways to beat Azzie.

Who wants to try rebuilding him so that none of the builds mentioned could do it in less than 100 rounds, without making him unbeatable?

Combat doesn't last that long.  If you're ten minutes in and haven't beaten your opponent, you lost or you left.
Title: Re: Who can beat Azathoth?
Post by: Bauglir on September 25, 2011, 09:54:33 PM
I think it'd be pretty simple. Change his SR to spell immunity, and make it proper "No, not even Conjuration (creation), fuck you wizards" - let it be overcome by a successful rank check. Allow him to define gravity subjectively within 1 mile per rank - he is a primal manifestation of existence, after all. Hood builds should be sufficiently fucked with when they fall away from him, although I'll admit I haven't studied them very well. Give him an appropriately high Int score, coupled with a special ability that goes something like this:

"Blank Slate (Ex): Although its Intelligence score might indicate otherwise, Azathoth is actually quite stupid. It is incapable of logical reasoning or foresight, and the closest thing it has to a mind is a roiling chaos of ideas, ever clashing. Nevertheless, Azathoth knows virtually everything about the Universe; it is simply incapable of reasoning with that knowledge. At the same time, Azathoth has every thought it is possible to have, and several that it isn't; but these are unconnected and fleeting. While it reacts to its immediate situation with all the apparent tactical cunning a creature of its Intelligence score might display, this is instinctive and simply a manifestation of the myriad of thoughts that compose this deity. Thus, it will never plan in advance a cunning strategy to defeat a foe or defend itself, nor will it consider the ramifications of any action for longer than 1 minute into the future, nor does it seem to remember events more than 1 minute into the past. For the purposes of any check, roll, or other mechanical purpose other than a Knowledge check or adjudicating ability damage, drain, or penalties (assuming one is somehow applied to it despite its normal immunities), Azathoth has Intelligence 2. Furthermore, because it cannot realistically be said to have a mind, as the term is typically understood, it is treated as Mindless whenever it would be beneficial to it."
Title: Re: Who can beat Azathoth?
Post by: Cannotthink on September 25, 2011, 10:05:43 PM
If gods would actually use their powers, they become unbeatable. Alter Reality is all any deity needs to stop time forever. Aside from that, they really do just sit around, waiting to die.
Title: Re: Who can beat Azathoth?
Post by: X-Codes on September 25, 2011, 10:40:27 PM
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds him.



Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"
To be fair, it's a really poorly built greater deity.
Title: Re: Who can beat Azathoth?
Post by: Drammor on September 25, 2011, 10:55:40 PM
Combat doesn't last that long.  If you're ten minutes in and haven't beaten your opponent, you lost or you left.

When dealing with an entity as vast as a deity, something about that just doesn't seem right to me.
Title: Re: Who can beat Azathoth?
Post by: spacemonkey555 on September 26, 2011, 12:41:44 AM
Combat doesn't last that long.  If you're ten minutes in and haven't beaten your opponent, you lost or you left.

When dealing with an entity as vast as a deity, something about that just doesn't seem right to me.

But mortals killing deities is ok?
Title: Re: Who can beat Azathoth?
Post by: Tr011 on September 26, 2011, 03:34:19 AM
Combat doesn't last that long.  If you're ten minutes in and haven't beaten your opponent, you lost or you left.

When dealing with an entity as vast as a deity, something about that just doesn't seem right to me.

But mortals killing deities is ok?
Epic mortals in Epic battles with Epic support, Epic Items and Epic Preparation.... Yeah, that's ok. But some well-build lvl 15 chars that use the deities weakness to insta-kill him... is NOT ok! But that's what happens if you fight random-monsters with optimized builds. A well-optimized deity w/o using cheese will surely kill any non-cheesy pre-Epic-char.
Title: Re: Who can beat Azathoth?
Post by: skydragonknight on September 26, 2011, 03:51:24 AM
How fun would it be if he gets killed by Magic Missles (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7802.0).

sure (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7802.msg284483#msg284483) I just need a way past his, I was acutally thinking of updating that build with War Mage levels to make it deadlier (+2 damage per magic missile is nothing to sneeze at when firing ~500 missiles per round).

Eager weapons and Knowledge devotion also effect every damage roll, and each missle has a different damage roll. Really good with Empower.
Title: Re: Who can beat Azathoth?
Post by: bhu on September 26, 2011, 04:24:06 AM
It looks like have people have found plenty of ways to beat Azzie.

Who wants to try rebuilding him so that none of the builds mentioned could do it in less than 100 rounds, without making him unbeatable?

I'm not sure you could rebuild him as he is portrayed in fiction.  Azathoth is Lovecrafts take on Mana Yood Sushai, one of the Gods of Pegana by Lord Dunsany.  Effectively Azathoth is a creator deity whose dreams are what we call reality, and if he is awoken, reality ceases to exist.
Title: Re: Who can beat Azathoth?
Post by: weenog on September 26, 2011, 08:47:43 AM
Combat doesn't last that long.  If you're ten minutes in and haven't beaten your opponent, you lost or you left.

When dealing with an entity as vast as a deity, something about that just doesn't seem right to me.

So look at it from the other direction.  If a deity has been trying to directly outright murder one of more mortals, for the last ten minutes, and he hasn't succeeded, does that seem right to you?

Your 100 plus round combat isn't going to happen without a new special ability like "Arbitrary Fight Scene Extension (Ex): Azathoth cannot be defeated for the first 100 rounds of any encounter.  This ability is a specific exception to any abilities anyone else has that would allow him to be beaten.  Azathoth cannot defeat anyone for the first 100 rounds of an encounter, either."  If he's beatable, it will happen before Round 100.  If he's not, he fails one of your wants and he looks pretty silly taking that long to kill mortals he can't lose to.
Title: Re: Who can beat Azathoth?
Post by: skydragonknight on September 26, 2011, 10:28:30 AM
Why even beat him in combat? Just take a Beguiler 5/Mindbender 1 and make a simple Bluff check, using Mindbender's Telepathy since Int 3 is probably too dumb for it to understand speech (He has 0 ranks, so it's an easy check with Glibness) to get him to accept a Robe of Powerlessness Awesomeness as a gift for him. Then ask him to try it on to see how it looks. :)
Title: Re: Who can beat Azathoth?
Post by: jojolagger on September 26, 2011, 08:12:05 PM
Any character who can hit AC 23 can kill him on a 21,000 gp budget.
Why, Because 20,000 gp of holy water and some dust of dryness (850 gp) makes a holy hand grenade that deals 1600d4 damage (average 4000).
a 8th level wizard has enough money, an could use true strike and launch item. Hell, the wizard only need survive one turn within 180+move speed of the guy before killing him. With a level 0 spell.
Sure it would take 3/4 of his WBL, but it's to one-shot kill something CR 50.
Title: Re: Who can beat Azathoth?
Post by: awaken DM golem on September 26, 2011, 08:19:32 PM
Just noticed Enda noticed Alter Reality before I did.

Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds him.



Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"
To be fair, it's a really poorly built greater deity.

Still ... I don't see optimizing that can handle 15+ random SDAs.

Alter Reality can get "it" Time Regression.
It ain't dead, it's mad, and it's had 1 round to think.