Brilliant Gameologists Forum

The Thinktank => Min/Max It! => Topic started by: Tr011 on September 21, 2011, 04:01:58 AM

Title: How to make proper use of Extract Gift to gain personal power?
Post by: Tr011 on September 21, 2011, 04:01:58 AM
Extract Gift is a spell from Fiendish Codex I that allows you to take power from a demon and gain it yourself. But there are some problems involved:

1. Casting Time 1 hour. You need either a willing, sleeping or trapped demon.
Solution: Planar Binding is just what we need for this. For Planar Binding, you need a Magic Circle. And Dimensional Anchor on the Circle (for 24h duration).

2. Spell Resistance still applies. So be careful what demon you summon. Assay Spell Resistance (SpC) should help you for +10 on the checks. (but I'm not quite sure this works with the duration?)

3. The demon may try a Charisma check vs. 15+1/2 CL+your Cha. Useful ways to max the odds here?

4. You may try to convince the demon, that he should grant you some parts of his power. This is an opposed Charisma-check, again, we need some ways to max our check here. Or to minimize his. Some kind of reward may grant a bonus to our check (adjusted by the DM) of +0 to +6. Check out 5. for this.

5. If your demon is not willing, he will get his will save. Granting the demon some kind of power increases the DC by +1 to +7. But I'm not sure you want a demon to gain some sort of power (like looking through your eyes), because if he gets mad at you for some reason, it gets very easy for him to find you.
Solution: Just grant him the ability to be bond with you telepathically for +5 DC and kill him afterwards.

6. You need a high CL for a high bonus. Some ways to increase the CL via spells or items? (should be as cheap as possible)
-Mystic Surge (PHB2 spell) grants an allied caster +1 CL and +2 DC for 1 round, can this help anyhow?

7. You need Material and XP components, if the spell fails, you still pay them, so make sure you get a chance of success of at least over 95%.

Of course, you have to be careful what demon you summon, so he fulfills the requirements but has low SR, Charisma and Will save.

Do you have some advice for me to optimize the use of this spell? (without cheese, class levels or feats, also I don't have leadership but I got party members that could help)
Title: Re: How to make proper use of Extract Gift to gain personal power?
Post by: rot42 on September 21, 2011, 01:20:31 PM
2) I believe that it is the case that the caster level check would be made when the spell fires at the end of the hour, but I do not think it has ever come up in my games so I easily could be wrong. True Casting (Complete Mage 121) might work if "if it is cast before the end of the next round" is interpreted liberally to mean "if you begin casting before the end of next round". There is a pretty good list of caster level boosters at http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872350/Raising_Caster_Level

3) If I recall correctly, Monte Carlo gave me +14 for 95% success rate on an opposed check (no special cases for ones or twenties). Having a modifier 21 points higher than theirs is of course even better. Since demons foolishly publish their stats in readily obtained monstrous compendia, you know the target value for your check. There is a thread with a table around here somewhere; maybe one of the Luck reroll threads? Writing of which, you are going to want some rerolls of your own. Two Will saves, two CL checks, and an opposed Cha check gives a 22% chance of failure if you have a 95% chance of success on each roll individually.

5) D&D morality is wacky. Consorting with a demon or carving pieces off a sapient creature for your own power are not enough to give the [Evil] descriptor. Negotiating in bad faith like that is not consistent with a Lawful alignment, but Extract Gift is a [Chaotic] spell anyway.
Title: Re: How to make proper use of Extract Gift to gain personal power?
Post by: JaronK on September 21, 2011, 02:06:01 PM
My solution has always been to make it a spell like ability... otherwise it just costs too much to be worthwhile.  Spell Stitching can get this, either on yourself (Necropolitan) or a minion (Animate Dread Warrior on a Cleric could work?  Maybe a zombie dragon with some kind of Wis boosts?).  I actually went through and found the best demons to use this on a while back... I could post that list eventually.

One nasty trick that may or may not work is to be an outsider (Tiefling, maybe?) and use the ritual in Savage Species to get one of the demon subtypes, which should make you a demon.  Now use Extract Gift with your spell like ability as a way of paying others, as well as boosting your party... and now you can see through their eyes and create a spy network or just boost communications in the party.

I find this to be a lot of fun as a Dread Necromancer, though obviously binding a demon for a long time is hard as a DN.

JaronK
Title: Re: How to make proper use of Extract Gift to gain personal power?
Post by: SorO_Lost on September 21, 2011, 05:53:33 PM
The TO thread Maxing a mental stat has a 68 Charisma Sorcerer based spellcaster in it. You could easily apply all of it to a Dread Necromancer (they even get Turning for DMM) so all you have to do is deal with the SR check.
Title: Re: How to make proper use of Extract Gift to gain personal power?
Post by: Lo77o on September 21, 2011, 06:19:59 PM
The trick here, is to make your self a demon. I bet there is plenty of ways to attain that, the simplest would be the rituals in savage species or a transformation spell of some kind. Then you get some kind of xp/gold cost negater, such as dweomerkeepers supernatural spell. Then you cast a supernatural limited wish to copy Extract Gift. Target your self. Give your self a bonus to any stat. Each day do it again. Since your stats increase each time you do this, so do the added bonus. They wont stack, but the highest will apply, and it will be a supernatural effect, so no dispelling, only negating in the usual dead magic / anti magic areas.

At least that is the way i would go.

EDIT: Yep, just checked.. Ritual of Association is 56.000 gp and 2240 XP. For that you gain a racial subtype. Pick Tanar'ri and your golden.
Title: Re: How to make proper use of Extract Gift to gain personal power?
Post by: SorO_Lost on September 21, 2011, 07:31:57 PM
The trick here, is to make your self a demon. I bet there is plenty of ways to attain that, the simplest would be the rituals in savage species or a transformation spell of some kind. Then you get some kind of xp/gold cost negater, such as dweomerkeepers supernatural spell. Then you cast a supernatural limited wish to copy Extract Gift. Target your self. Give your self a bonus to any stat. Each day do it again. Since your stats increase each time you do this, so do the added bonus. They wont stack, but the highest will apply, and it will be a supernatural effect, so no dispelling, only negating in the usual dead magic / anti magic areas.

At least that is the way i would go.

EDIT: Yep, just checked.. Ritual of Association is 56.000 gp and 2240 XP. For that you gain a racial subtype. Pick Tanar'ri and your golden.
Some of those add LA, like the Elemental Subtypes do but the Alignments don't, does that one?
Title: Re: How to make proper use of Extract Gift to gain personal power?
Post by: Lo77o on September 21, 2011, 08:02:08 PM
The trick here, is to make your self a demon. I bet there is plenty of ways to attain that, the simplest would be the rituals in savage species or a transformation spell of some kind. Then you get some kind of xp/gold cost negater, such as dweomerkeepers supernatural spell. Then you cast a supernatural limited wish to copy Extract Gift. Target your self. Give your self a bonus to any stat. Each day do it again. Since your stats increase each time you do this, so do the added bonus. They wont stack, but the highest will apply, and it will be a supernatural effect, so no dispelling, only negating in the usual dead magic / anti magic areas.

At least that is the way i would go.

EDIT: Yep, just checked.. Ritual of Association is 56.000 gp and 2240 XP. For that you gain a racial subtype. Pick Tanar'ri and your golden.
Some of those add LA, like the Elemental Subtypes do but the Alignments don't, does that one?

Neither Alignment or Association rituals adds LA. But there is no reason to do the Alignment ritual. The spell only requires you to be a demon, not to have the evil or chaotic subtype. Tanar'ri subtype should suffice.
Title: Re: How to make proper use of Extract Gift to gain personal power?
Post by: awaken DM golem on September 21, 2011, 10:09:42 PM
Erudite StP and Linked Power takes care of time and components.


rot42's link is an oldie but goodie.
Bauglir's got a mega CL thread on handbooks.
Title: Re: How to make proper use of Extract Gift to gain personal power?
Post by: Tr011 on September 21, 2011, 10:38:20 PM
I don't think making yourself or an ally a demon would help, because it's written like he would loose a part of his abilities/ranks. That's why he doesn't want it in the first place. I assume I wouldn't get past my DM if I try to get this as a spell-like ability, too.

@rot42: Thanks for the link, with this, I will easily pass any SR on a natural 1.
Does someone have an idea how to get pass the Charisma-check? Burrowing the cloak of my party's bard would be a start, but are there some cheap items that may help?
Title: Re: How to make proper use of Extract Gift to gain personal power?
Post by: JaronK on September 21, 2011, 10:57:20 PM
I don't think making yourself or an ally a demon would help, because it's written like he would loose a part of his abilities/ranks. That's why he doesn't want it in the first place. I assume I wouldn't get past my DM if I try to get this as a spell-like ability, too.

As written, the spell in no way hurts the person giving the power.

JaronK
Title: Re: How to make proper use of Extract Gift to gain personal power?
Post by: Tr011 on September 21, 2011, 11:41:27 PM
Just reread the spell... You're right, there's no downside for the demon.
Title: Re: How to make proper use of Extract Gift to gain personal power?
Post by: Lo77o on September 22, 2011, 06:58:53 AM
Only downside is that you can gain unlimited stats if you spend unlimited time. There is no maximum. And as such, it will never see play in the majority of campaigns  :shakefist
Title: Re: How to make proper use of Extract Gift to gain personal power?
Post by: kremti on September 22, 2011, 01:03:52 PM
I don't think making yourself or an ally a demon would help, because it's written like he would loose a part of his abilities/ranks. That's why he doesn't want it in the first place. I assume I wouldn't get past my DM if I try to get this as a spell-like ability, too.

@rot42: Thanks for the link, with this, I will easily pass any SR on a natural 1.
Does someone have an idea how to get pass the Charisma-check? Burrowing the cloak of my party's bard would be a start, but are there some cheap items that may help?
Circlet of Persuasion is a classic...

Alter Fortune spell can force *thier* Charisma Roll into a reroll...

Do you have UMD?  I think there are a few spells that can help here...(Assuming spell doesn't have to last like 24 hours)  Many Bard spells can buff ability checks.  Focusing Chant and Improvisation (Both from Spell Compendium, and Personal Buff), and Good Hope (SRD, other bards can cast them to you...)

-K

Edit: Alter, not altar!
Title: Re: How to make proper use of Extract Gift to gain personal power?
Post by: Kuroimaken on September 22, 2011, 01:14:46 PM
For number 3, simply skyrocket your CL with Master Spellthief.  :D
Title: Re: How to make proper use of Extract Gift to gain personal power?
Post by: JaronK on September 22, 2011, 01:36:59 PM
Only downside is that you can gain unlimited stats if you spend unlimited time. There is no maximum. And as such, it will never see play in the majority of campaigns  :shakefist

Not so much, because it's not a 1:1 trade of stats.  Also, the cost is an issue, as is caster level.  If you make it a Spell Like to dodge the obscene costs of this spell, your Caster Level is based on HD and thus won't be high enough to do anything crazy.  If not, the costs are too high.  Does Dweomerkeeper get around this issue?

JaronK
Title: Re: How to make proper use of Extract Gift to gain personal power?
Post by: Lo77o on September 22, 2011, 04:10:08 PM
Only downside is that you can gain unlimited stats if you spend unlimited time. There is no maximum. And as such, it will never see play in the majority of campaigns  :shakefist

Not so much, because it's not a 1:1 trade of stats.  Also, the cost is an issue, as is caster level.  If you make it a Spell Like to dodge the obscene costs of this spell, your Caster Level is based on HD and thus won't be high enough to do anything crazy.  If not, the costs are too high.  Does Dweomerkeeper get around this issue?

JaronK

Good point about the caster level, i dont know how i could forget that part. That is great news, it is now practical to use it on my red wizard / dweomerkeeper. :) Now the only limiter on the bonus to your stat is your CL, not the stat your "extracting" from.. I bit of time, and a few castings and you will have a very nice enchantment bonus to each of your stats :)
Title: Re: How to make proper use of Extract Gift to gain personal power?
Post by: JaronK on September 22, 2011, 04:36:46 PM
Though again, since it's not 1:1, it's no where near infinite.  You can definitely get some very solid boosts though, so it's definitely worth playing with.  Note that there's a Demon that can be summoned (IIRC with Planar Binding) in the demon Fiendish Codex that has a charisma of 30... which should help you out a lot.  Just figure out a way to contain her (I recommend Ghoul Glyph, because negotiating with demons is dangerous).

JaronK
Title: Re: How to make proper use of Extract Gift to gain personal power?
Post by: awaken DM golem on September 22, 2011, 06:40:57 PM
Though again, since it's not 1:1, it's no where near infinite.  You can definitely get some very solid boosts though, so it's definitely worth playing with.  Note that there's a Demon that can be summoned (IIRC with Planar Binding) in the demon Fiendish Codex that has a charisma of 30... which should help you out a lot.  Just figure out a way to contain her (I recommend Ghoul Glyph, because negotiating with demons ** like Pazuzu ** is dangerous).

JaronK

Oh for shame JaronK ...  :pout ... for shame.



 ;)
Title: Re: How to make proper use of Extract Gift to gain personal power?
Post by: BeholderSlayer on September 22, 2011, 07:54:32 PM
I answer problems like this in the same way most of the time...

Circle Magic and/or Node Spellcasting
Title: Re: How to make proper use of Extract Gift to gain personal power?
Post by: JaronK on September 22, 2011, 10:25:37 PM
Do either of those work with Sp or Su abilities?  Because it's not worthwhile otherwise (the spell costs as much as just making a custom item unslotted... more, perhaps).

And I don't believe in negotiating with Demons.  We kill them and enslave them, we don't negotiate!

JaronK
Title: Re: How to make proper use of Extract Gift to gain personal power?
Post by: X-Codes on September 22, 2011, 10:53:06 PM
The spell costs exactly as much as creating an unslotted, custom magic item, yes, and even with CL shenanigans doesn't necessarily allow for extremely high-end items.  What's more, it's a permanent duration spell.  Regardless of your CL, if you get hit with an MDJ then these bonuses are gone.  If you spent the time to craft the magic items, then you'd at least get a save.

So yeah, you really need to make it Supernatural with Dweomerkeeper in order to make it at all worthwhile.  That should take care of the SR issue as well.
Title: Re: How to make proper use of Extract Gift to gain personal power?
Post by: SorO_Lost on September 22, 2011, 11:54:59 PM
And I don't believe in negotiating with Demons.  We kill them and enslave them, we don't negotiate!
Weaker people negotiate with demons, powerful people in slave or kill them, truly evil people have demons negotiating for them...

There is a lawyer joke in there some where but damned if I can figure out how to place it.
Title: Re: How to make proper use of Extract Gift to gain personal power?
Post by: BeholderSlayer on September 23, 2011, 09:39:51 AM
And I don't believe in negotiating with Demons.  We kill them and enslave them, we don't negotiate!
Weaker people negotiate with demons, powerful people in slave or kill them, truly evil people have demons negotiating for them...

There is a lawyer joke in there some where but damned if I can figure out how to place it.
Lawyers are demons?
Title: Re: How to make proper use of Extract Gift to gain personal power?
Post by: skydragonknight on September 23, 2011, 09:43:20 AM
And I don't believe in negotiating with Demons.  We kill them and enslave them, we don't negotiate!
Weaker people negotiate with demons, powerful people in slave or kill them, truly evil people have demons negotiating for them...

There is a lawyer joke in there some where but damned if I can figure out how to place it.
Lawyers are demons?

Devils actually. Lawful Evil. ;)