Brilliant Gameologists Forum
The Thinktank => Homebrew & House Rules => Unofficial Errata Project => : Garryl September 20, 2011, 03:07:26 PM
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This thread is for all of those small issues that you see when you're reading through a book or playing the game. Small issues that would be errataed were an actual errata to be released, but that aren't big enough to start a new book-wide errata thread for.
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I know you guys have been working hard on tome of battle for a while so feel free to outright ignore me if you're feeling like "crossing that bridge when you get there."
Just a gut reaction: Do psicrystals gain feats and how does a psion replace one when it dies?
I'm not really asking RAW but what you think the Errata project would come up with.
Thanks for the thread! Anyone want to help me out?
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I'd say they can recover the PsiCrystal in 24 hours, similar to the way a Druid/Ranger replaces their animal companion (except it's the same crystal every time).
As for the feats, I'd prefer to leave that question to Lycan. He is far more familiar with Psionics than I am and would know most of the exploits doing so would bring about. Leaving that question to his expertise would be for the best.
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On Psicrystals getting feats:
From http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/psicrystal.htm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/psicrystal.htm) we get:
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The psicrystal described here is that of a 1st-level manifester.
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Hit Dice: As master’s HD (hp ½ master’s)
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Abilities: Str 1*, Dex 15*, Con Ø, Int 6, Wis 10, Cha 10
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Feats: Alertness
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From http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#increasingHitDice (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#increasingHitDice) we get:
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As its Hit Dice increase, a creature’s attack bonuses and saving throw modifiers might improve. It gains more feats and skills, depending on its type, as shown on Table: Creature Improvement by Type.
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All types have a number of feats equal to 1 + 1 per 3 Hit Dice.
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Creatures with an Intelligence score of "—" gain no skill points or feats.
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So we have an intelligent creature which has 1 HD and a feat as per the example. I don't see why it wouldn't get more feats as it gets more HDs.
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As for the feats, I'd prefer to leave that question to Lycan. He is far more familiar with Psionics than I am and would know most of the exploits doing so would bring about. Leaving that question to his expertise would be for the best.
Let me save you some time. It's easily broken (cough leadership), and then there's plenty of other combos like greatly increasing the master's power capacity. It also opens cans of worms like people claiming the psicrystal can now take prcs instead of "vannilla" HD.
The psicrystal already is very useful even whitout extra feats, doubly so if you can replace it free willy-nilly. It's an exceptional scout at low levels, free blindsight, and can pull out numerous combos with sharing powers alone.
Of course, if you really think psions could use even more power, feel free to errata they get full feats.
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Leadership aside (which has to be DM-okayed anyway, even for PC's) the worst it can do is take psionic/metapsionic feats and have them borrowed via the Feat Leech power. That and Hidden Talent for another power known by its master (so long as it's being held), and Lifesight. Mindsight is a bit more questionable, but Telepaths have the option of just taking that themselves.
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I knew it could abuse Leadership, but that has in-game consequences that hinders it (XP is divided between the party and the Cohort, even if the Cohort is at the Leadership level cap, WBL has to be shared with the Cohort, etc).
Still, that says more about Leadership than it does about the Psicrystal gaining feats.
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Leadership aside (which has to be DM-okayed anyway, even for PC's) the worst it can do is take psionic/metapsionic feats and have them borrowed via the Feat Leech power. That and Hidden Talent for another power known by its master (so long as it's being held), and Lifesight. Mindsight is a bit more questionable, but Telepaths have the option of just taking that themselves.
In theory it might be able to pick up a few combat feats that would come in handy when it gets a Metamorphosis.
Still, I don't think it's going to make a huge difference. If the psion has balance issues, it isn't because the psicrystal has feats.
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Still, I don't think it's going to make a huge difference. If the psion has balance issues, it isn't because the psicrystal has feats.
If the psion has issues, it isn't because of any single feature, but a stacking of multiple features, and then people deciding to stack even more features (why yes, class psionics now count as a natural ability so I can take that feat that makes them a Su ability despite the rules saying class psionics isn't a natural ability).
If you allow the psicrystal to take feats and then make it easily replaceable on top, what you end up is that you're gaining multiple feats for the investment of a single one, on top of the own's priscrytal's usefulness. There's plenty of feats the psion can use and abuse on the psicrystal as well as if they were on his own person.
And of course the psion isn't the only one involved on this. The pshycic warrior can also get psicrystals, and if they're gaining feats, the pshycic warrior suddenly knows a lot more powers and has mindsight and whatnot.
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Still, I don't think it's going to make a huge difference. If the psion has balance issues, it isn't because the psicrystal has feats.
If the psion has issues, it isn't because of any single feature, but a stacking of multiple features, and then people deciding to stack even more features (why yes, class psionics now count as a natural ability so I can take that feat that makes them a Su ability despite the rules saying class psionics isn't a natural ability).
Indeed, its a fundamental issue of all the T1s and T2s, you can't point out any given part that makes them problematic because its precisely the sum of the best of its parts. Some parts are too good and some too bad.
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Indeed, its a fundamental issue of all the T1s and T2s, you can't point out any given part that makes them problematic because its precisely the sum of the best of its parts. Some parts are too good and some too bad.
Precisely. And that's why we shouldn't even add more "too good" parts like doubling the number of feats a psion gets on top of free telepathy and mindsight.
"Class X is strong, so it's ok to make it even better" is an horrendous design philosophy no matter how you look at it.
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With Feat Leech, you can only have up to your Wisdom modifier plus one stolen feats at a time. You also have to qualify for the feats you steal.
It's a decent combo, but it's not going to be obscenely useful.
Besides, all this is just a balance argument against psicrystals getting feats. So far the only one to provide a coherent rules argument is Shiki.
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Besides, all this is just a balance argument against psicrystals getting feats. So far the only one to provide a coherent rules argument is Shiki.
I'm sorry, I tought that errata was meant to improve the game's balance. Like when time stop was errata'd to don't work with persistent spell.
Specially considering that we're in the homebrew section and stuff.
Really, I could swear such rules arguments was for the min/max forums.
After all, in the ToB section here the actual rules were throw out of the window and the people decided what they tought was fairer, like nerfing WRT and improving the swordsage.
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Besides, all this is just a balance argument against psicrystals getting feats. So far the only one to provide a coherent rules argument is Shiki.
I'm sorry, I tought that errata was meant to improve the game's balance. Like when time stop was errata'd to don't work with persistent spell.
Specially considering that we're in the homebrew section and stuff.
Really, I could swear such rules arguments was for the min/max forums.
After all, in the ToB section here the actual rules were throw out of the window and the people decided what they tought was fairer, like nerfing WRT and improving the swordsage.
Maybe I missed something, but I didn't see anything that would improve the Swordsage.
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I see nothing indicating that psicrystals don't get feats. You're talking about changing the rules so they work the opposite of the way they do right now. That really isn't errata, that's a houserule. If that's the general consensus, that's one thing, but that doesn't seem to be the case right now, does it?
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I'm sorry, I tought that errata was meant to improve the game's balance. Like when time stop was errata'd to don't work with persistent spell.
Specially considering that we're in the homebrew section and stuff.
Really, I could swear such rules arguments was for the min/max forums.
After all, in the ToB section here the actual rules were throw out of the window and the people decided what they tought was fairer, like nerfing WRT and improving the swordsage.
Errata isn't supposed to balance things, it's supposed to reword it so it works. The fact that I've done both is a sign that I'm not WotC-approved for this job, and have included a dose of my own opinion into this project.
That nerf to WRT is a piece of my own opinion, coupled with some support from the others who are actually providing feedback. Produce a strong enough argument that supports WRTing yourself and I'll run it through everyone else who wants to provide some feedback, and then alter the errata.
And no, "Melees and nice things" is not a strong enough argument for WRT abuse. In all honesty, if I wanted to repurpose the errata to provide my own house rules for the Bo9S, I'd have put WRT more in line with the Snake's Swiftness spell and other White Raven maneuvers that grant extra actions instead of letting it grant entire extra turns.
If you have any further criticism of the work in progress, please chime in and post your opinion so we can all see it instead of pointing out that you disagree with something included in the "errata".
Tangent
[spoiler]Really, calling this an "errata" is a flat-out lie. We have no input from the creators of the book whatsoever, no permission from WotC, and this entire thing is largely three people reading through the book and pointing stuff out that doesn't work, while another person writes down an opinion of what he thinks those things should do or how things should work.
I actually have no right to call this an errata project seeing as so much of this is my personal opinion of what those abilities should say The changes to the Crusader's and Warblade's stance progressions, for example, is largely an opinion that I happen to agree with. Or the majority of changes I made to Stone Dragon (specifically, the parts about the Mountain Hammer line being compatible with Sunder attempts).
Seriously, I'm unqualified and unauthorized. I'm only writing the "errata" because I feel obligated to contribute to this project and because no one else took the helm.[/spoiler]
PS: Be specific when you have a problem with something in this project. I mean actually pointing out what you think needs to be changed, and how it should be changed (in your opinion). Just remember that this entire thing is unofficial. It's not like WotC is going to look at it and shake your hand for anything posted in this section.
Edit: With regards to Psicrystals and feats, the only things we have to go off of are the opinions of CustServ/The FAQ/The Sage and what's written in the books.
I'm not going to lie: If I have to choose between buffing an ability or nerfing it, I'm going to take my personal opinion of that ability into account. For something like the Psicrystal feat problem, I feel that my opinion of it isn't strong enough to validate a change to the mechanics. That's why I brought up Lycan: He's pretty much the resident expert on Psionics and has a very respected opinion when it comes to that subject. I'd consider his opinion more valuable than the rulings of CustServ or the FAQ.
That said, I feel that the Psicrystals should not be allowed to take Leadership. Such a change, however, is a pure house rule. I know that I've included those in the Bo9S "errata" (especially the Stone Dragon/White Raven parts), but that kind of a change [to Psicrystals] is far more polarizing than allowing Mountain Hammer to be used as a Sunder Attempt, or nerfing WRT so it can't hit the initiator.
Such polarizing changes hurt the image of this project, and people will be more likely to dismiss the efforts we put into this just as easily as they dismiss CustServ. I want to avoid that with this project.
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Personally, as a psicrystal takes a feat to access, I'd say it shouldn't have feats beyond the stock feat. You pay one feat and get 1 back per three levels? What kind of sense, RAI-wise, does that make?
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Personally, as a psicrystal takes a feat to access, I'd say it shouldn't have feats beyond the stock feat. You pay one feat and get 1 back per three levels? What kind of sense, RAI-wise, does that make?
I do agree with that.
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And no, "Melees and nice things" is not a strong enough argument for WRT abuse. In all honesty, if I wanted to repurpose the errata to provide my own house rules for the Bo9S, I'd have put WRT more in line with the Snake's Swiftness spell and other White Raven maneuvers that grant extra actions instead of letting it grant entire extra turns.
If you have any further criticism of the work in progress, please chime in and post your opinion so we can all see it instead of pointing out that you disagree with something included in the "errata".
I didn't use "nerf" as a negative term. WRT was too strong if not outright broken with the potential of chaining multiple turns in a single round. You weakened it to more sane levels. It's still a nerf, just a good and needed one.
And no, errata (official or not) isn't suposed to just make things work when they didn't, it's also a way of balancing something that already came out, pretty much how companies patch games. It was used like that in 3.0 (polymorph improved Con granting HP untill errata specifically forbid that) and it's still used like that in 4e.
Personally, as a psicrystal takes a feat to access, I'd say it shouldn't have feats beyond the stock feat. You pay one feat and get 1 back per three levels? What kind of sense, RAI-wise, does that make?
I do agree with that.
I had already had pointed out, but heh, I guess I should thank Veekie for repeating it so people noticed.
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Personally, as a psicrystal takes a feat to access, I'd say it shouldn't have feats beyond the stock feat. You pay one feat and get 1 back per three levels? What kind of sense, RAI-wise, does that make?
I do agree with that.
In fairness, you need to spend a power known to get those feats. You're also restricted by the duration and limits of Feat Leech.
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Personally, as a psicrystal takes a feat to access, I'd say it shouldn't have feats beyond the stock feat. You pay one feat and get 1 back per three levels? What kind of sense, RAI-wise, does that make?
I do agree with that.
In fairness, you need to spend a power known to get those feats. You're also restricted by the duration and limits of Feat Leech.
In fairness, you can get powers known from feats. Boosting your Wis to at least a bonus of +3 is cheap, and going nova is the name of the game for psions anyway.
Not to mention, again, some of those feats benefit you allright even if they're just in the psicrystal, like mindsight and leadership.
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I didn't use "nerf" as a negative term. WRT was too strong if not outright broken with the potential of chaining multiple turns in a single round. You weakened it to more sane levels. It's still a nerf, just a good and needed one.
K, so that was a misunderstanding on my part. Tone is really hard to translate onto the web.
And no, errata (official or not) isn't suposed to just make things work when they didn't, it's also a way of balancing something that already came out, pretty much how companies patch games. It was used like that in 3.0 (polymorph improved Con granting HP untill errata specifically forbid that) and it's still used like that in 4e.
I suppose I should state where I'm coming from with that: I have attempted to become a judge for MtG. Errata in Magic is meant to clarify and enable the cards to work as intended, not nerf it into unplayable levels (they originally did that, but stopped the practice years ago). While I feel that DnD errata can never be on a similar level as MtG errata, I do feel that nerfing/buffing should be avoided when possible (especially with the Tier 2s and up).
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If all you want is detection of other beings, Touchsight+Transdimensional Touchsight will do that easily enough. Granted, it won't tell you what type or Intelligence they have, but it's pretty damn good as a radar. Leadership is really something you could pick up anyway, so tacking that onto a psicrystal isn't saying much. For the same price as Psicrystal Affinity, you could take that or go Thrallherd and leach feats from your followers/cohorts/thralls.
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RE: Leadership on a Psicrystal.
Because of the restrictions on the Psicrystal's advancement, it's arguable that it cannot take Leadership (which has a prereq of Character Level 6th). I know I'm splitting hairs here, but that kind of abuse needs to be avoided.
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If all you want is detection of other beings, Touchsight+Transdimensional Touchsight will do that easily enough. Granted, it won't tell you what type or Intelligence they have, but it's pretty damn good as a radar. Leadership is really something you could pick up anyway, so tacking that onto a psicrystal isn't saying much. For the same price as Psicrystal Affinity, you could take that or go Thrallherd and leach feats from your followers/cohorts/thralls.
What you're evading here, it's that the psicrystal with feats allows you to do all of those better, cheaper, or both. And then you still get the psicrystal itself on top of it!
Trallherd? Pick it if you want, then let your psicrystal take leadership anyway for double cohort and extra followers. (and as already mentioned good luck leting your DM cherry-pick your followers and cohorts anyway).
Touchsight? Spare a power known, a metapsionic feat and PP with psicrystal.
Trallherd with touchsight? Psicrystal spares you a lot of trouble geting all the feats and powers.
And then you're still freaking comboing the psicrytal with metamorphosis and share pain and vigor and whatnot.
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Please explain to me the following:
How a Psicrystal is getting any more than 1 power known?
How a feat that explicitly requires DM permission for a PC to grab it is ever going to get onto a psicrystal instead. For that matter, why couldn't an animal companion take it?
How are 99% of the feats out there going to benefit the Thrallherd when it can only make use of psionic/metapsionic feats (by spending a power known, which the Psicrystal can't replace until Epic), most of which the Psicrystal can't qualify for? You keep pointing to Lifesight and Mindsight, but Mindsight RAW can't be taken by a Psicrystal as it lacks the Telepathy ability.
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Doesn't matter. Even disregarding feat leech, a psicrystal IS already two feats in one(if not a very good second feat). you have a scout, communicator, spotter AND free Alertness. The rules as they are intended to be are clear. You do not buy half a dozen feats with one feat.
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RE: Leadership on a Psicrystal.
Because of the restrictions on the Psicrystal's advancement, it's arguable that it cannot take Leadership (which has a prereq of Character Level 6th). I know I'm splitting hairs here, but that kind of abuse needs to be avoided.
I think this is missing the forest for the trees. Just rule that only PCs can take Leadership.
And yeah, psicrystals with feats are fun but probably not what was intended. Dreamscarred Press already removed them (even before Psionics Unleashed, their alternate psicrystals explicitly did not get feats).
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Given their similarities, I would also cite the precedent of familiars not getting feats.
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This is, quite obviously, another Stonewarden dilemma.
The RaI are rather obvious that psicrystals should not be getting feats.
But the RaW is what matters, and if it says they get feats, then that should be houseruled away.
The only, only, circumstance where this would be appropriate for the scope of this project (even with what else has been done) is if the RaW is ambiguous. Then, a decision to make RaW match with RaI when clarifying the RaW's ambiguity would be appropriate. I do honestly feel that the rest of this project so far has stuck pretty true to that ideal, though if I had more time, I may dispute a bit of what was decided as RaI in other places. ;)
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I know this has nothing to do with the current vein, but I would like to propose the following change, or something like it:
Serpent Kingdoms, page 80
Sarrukh gain the following special quality:
"Archetypal Shape (Ex): No other creature can polymorph or shapechange themselves (or anything else) into a sarrukh's shape, or anything approximating it."
Archetypal Shape is an ability possessed by the Sharn (FR setting)
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I know this has nothing to do with the current vein, but I would like to propose the following change, or something like it:
Serpent Kingdoms, page 80
Sarrukh gain the following special quality:
"Archetypal Shape (Ex): No other creature can polymorph or shapechange themselves (or anything else) into a sarrukh's shape, or anything approximating it."
Archetypal Shape is an ability possessed by the Sharn (FR setting)
This stops one method of Pun-Pun's ascension, but the current one doesn't use Polymorph.
IMO, the errata to Serpent Kingdoms will have the following line:
Page 80 - Sharrukh [Deletion and Revision]
Under the Manipulate Form ability, delete the last sentence of the second paragraph. Replace the second-to-last paragraph with "Any ability score may be decreased to a minimum of 1 or increased to a maximum of the Sharrukh's own score or up to twice the affected creature's original ability score (discounting Inherent, Enhancement, or any other bonuses to an ability score that originate from something other than the typical +1 per 4 hit dice)."
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Oh? How does the current pun pun work?
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Oh? How does the current pun pun work?
1: Have a 1st level Kobold Paladin make a DC 25 Knowledge (Religion) check (not too hard to do).
2: Summon Pazuzu.
3: Use Pazuzu's benevolence to get a free Wish.
4: Use the Wish to get a Candle of Invocation.
5: Use the Candle to summon a Sharruhk.
6: Use the Gate effect of the candle to command it to give you Manipulate Form.
7: Proceed from there.
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Need an opinion here guys: Should the Lightning Maces combo be nerfed? I'm very inclined to say "No", as it's a melee trick that requires a lot of optimization to work, and it's reliant on critical hits.
If anything, I'd probably change the Lightning Maces feat to make the extra attack replace confirming the critical hit on the first one, so the damage just takes a small hit. It's then a matter of updating 3.0 material so it doesn't create the 2-20 critical range.
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It's the 2-20 critical range that's borked, not the lighting maces itself.
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And much of that could be fixed by clarifying the wording on Aptitude so it doesn't let you use illegal weapons.
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And much of that could be fixed by clarifying the wording on Aptitude so it doesn't let you use illegal weapons.
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It's been established that RaI for Aptitude is that it works on feats that allow you to choose a weapon, not on feats that designate a weapon, so I would love to see this clarification included.
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I'd love to see teleportation (as should be defined in the PHB or DMG or MM, but sadly isn't) have a default. Something like "Unless otherwise stated, a teleporting creature can bring with it anything it carries or wears, to a maximum of its maximum load. A teleporting creature may choose to leave some carried or worn things behind (such as excessively encumbering carried equipment, or restraints impeding the creature)."
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Eberron Campaign Setting, page 23
Creatures with the Living Construct Subtype gain the following trait:
"Climate Tolerant (Ex): Living Constructs suffer little harm from environmental extremes of heat or cold. They do not have to make Fortitude saves in extreme environments between –20° and 140° F (severe cold to severe heat). This ability does not provide any protection from fire or cold damage. This ability counts as if a living construct had the Cold Endurance and Heat Endurance feats for purposes of fulfilling prerequisites for other feats or prestige classes."
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It is my assertion that something like the above should be added to a future errata.
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Eberron Campaign Setting, page 23
Creatures with the Living Construct Subtype gain the following trait:
"Climate Tolerant (Ex): Living Constructs suffer little harm from environmental extremes of heat or cold. They do not have to make Fortitude saves in extreme environments between –20° and 140° F (severe cold to severe heat). This ability does not provide any protection from fire or cold damage. This ability counts as if a living construct had the Cold Endurance and Heat Endurance feats for purposes of fulfilling prerequisites for other feats or prestige classes."
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It is my assertion that something like the above should be added to a future errata.
That's a house rule, not errata. I know it makes some sense, but that's beyond what we are supposed to be doing here.