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The Thinktank => Min/Max It! => Topic started by: AngellusMortus on June 02, 2011, 04:00:09 PM

Title: Help building the Master of Bad Luck
Post by: AngellusMortus on June 02, 2011, 04:00:09 PM
Alright, here's a little bit of a CO challenge for a character I'm wanting to build. I've seen plenty of threads about characters who specialize in rerolls, mostly their own using luck feats and such. However, the part of Fatespinner that I find most interesting is the ability to say "screw you" and force an enemy to reroll after they've saved. Thus, I wanted to see if it was possible to make a character whos specialization wasn't his own luck, but instead, making everyone else incredibly unlucky. I'm open to suggestions on how to manifest the concept - I could see specializing in forcing rerolls, or debuffing, or any number of things like that. Luckstealer fits perfectly, but is a terrible class...any way to fix that? All books allowed except ToM, no Dragon Magazine. Help much appreciated!
Title: Re: Help building the Master of Bad Luck
Post by: Rebel7284 on June 02, 2011, 04:05:19 PM
Hexblade/Paladin of Tyranny is another (albeit weaker) way of doing this.
Title: Re: Help building the Master of Bad Luck
Post by: Ithamar on June 02, 2011, 04:08:45 PM
PHBII has a low level spell that is an immediate action that forces one foe to re-roll their last d20, whether it is a save or attack or skill check.  Costs a few XP, but I'm sure that can be ameliorated somehow.
Title: Re: Help building the Master of Bad Luck
Post by: Rebel7284 on June 02, 2011, 05:01:46 PM
PHBII has a low level spell that is an immediate action that forces one foe to re-roll their last d20, whether it is a save or attack or skill check.  Costs a few XP, but I'm sure that can be ameliorated somehow.

Alter Fortune (level 3) doesn't have to target a foe. :)

Also 100XP may or may not be a few, depending ;)
Title: Re: Help building the Master of Bad Luck
Post by: ILM on June 02, 2011, 05:30:22 PM
You know, out of curiosity I was rereading the Entropomancer class in CD yesterday and I noticed something I'd never paid attention to before:

Quote
Entropic Field (Su): As a standard action, an entropomancer can surround herself with a field of invisible, entropic energy that lasts for 1 round per entropomancer level. The field extends in a 5-foot-per-entropomancer-level radius, centered on the entropomancer. All magical healing automatically fails within the entropic field. It takes the entropomancer a standard action to dismiss the entropic field.

At 5th level, the entropic field becomes strong enough to warp the laws of probability. Once per round, as a free action, the entropomancer can force a character within the field (including herself) to reroll an attack, save, or check.
You can use an Entropic Field twice a day.
Title: Re: Help building the Master of Bad Luck
Post by: Bozwevial on June 02, 2011, 05:34:32 PM
Unluck. It's one of the best offensive divination spells you can find. It allows a Will save, but if the target fails? They have to reroll everything and take the worse result. I'm sure you can see the applications here.
Title: Re: Help building the Master of Bad Luck
Post by: Faithless tbe Wonder Boy on June 02, 2011, 07:17:20 PM
If you could get Sword of the Arcane Order to apply to Paladin of Tyranny, then Paladin of Tyranny 14/Entropomancer 6 could get all three: the spell Unluck, the debilitating saves aura of the Paladin, and the Entropomancer aura that forces a re-roll each round.  (Feel free to swap out the later Paladin of Tyranny levels with anything that progresses spellcasting, if you'd like.)

Of course, all this save debuffing is useless if you don't have anything decent to make them save versus....
Title: Re: Help building the Master of Bad Luck
Post by: Rebel7284 on June 02, 2011, 07:21:42 PM
If you could get Sword of the Arcane Order to apply to Paladin of Tyranny, then Paladin of Tyranny 14/Entropomancer 6 could get all three: the spell Unluck, the debilitating saves aura of the Paladin, and the Entropomancer aura that forces a re-roll each round.  (Feel free to swap out the later Paladin of Tyranny levels with anything that progresses spellcasting, if you'd like.)

Of course, all this save debuffing is useless if you don't have anything decent to make them save versus....

The obvious answer is leadership.
Title: Re: Help building the Master of Bad Luck
Post by: The_Mad_Linguist on June 02, 2011, 10:33:16 PM
Artificer using his temporary weapon imbuements to abuse doomwarding (reroll seven things).
Title: Re: Help building the Master of Bad Luck
Post by: Unbeliever on June 03, 2011, 12:06:57 AM
If you could get Sword of the Arcane Order to apply to Paladin of Tyranny, then Paladin of Tyranny 14/Entropomancer 6 could get all three: the spell Unluck, the debilitating saves aura of the Paladin, and the Entropomancer aura that forces a re-roll each round.  (Feel free to swap out the later Paladin of Tyranny levels with anything that progresses spellcasting, if you'd like.)

Of course, all this save debuffing is useless if you don't have anything decent to make them save versus....

The obvious answer is leadership.
I often use poison or UMD.
Title: Re: Help building the Master of Bad Luck
Post by: ILM on June 03, 2011, 07:46:49 AM
If you could get Sword of the Arcane Order to apply to Paladin of Tyranny, then Paladin of Tyranny 14/Entropomancer 6 could get all three: the spell Unluck, the debilitating saves aura of the Paladin, and the Entropomancer aura that forces a re-roll each round.  (Feel free to swap out the later Paladin of Tyranny levels with anything that progresses spellcasting, if you'd like.)

Of course, all this save debuffing is useless if you don't have anything decent to make them save versus....

The obvious answer is leadership.
Entropomancer wouldn't work with a cohort: the forcing rerolls thing is a free action, which you can only take on your turn.
Title: Re: Help building the Master of Bad Luck
Post by: KellKheraptis on June 03, 2011, 09:38:57 AM
Let me dig it up, but IIRC there was a divine power gish wizard that abused this, and made it virtually impossible to fail at anything, and the enemies virtually impossible to succeed.

EDIT :
[spoiler]The Fortune-Teller -- He Tells Fortune What To Do
Cleric (Luck and War) 1 / Wizard 4 / Runesmith 5 / Divine Oracle 2 / Fatespinner 4 / Fortune's Fool 4

I've played a build similar to this, and it's actually rather amusing to play. Very amusing. The sheer amount of rerolls you get can be pretty insane, and when the DM smirks as his power-attacking-for-full red wyrm rolls a natural 20 and is about to x3 crit you... you just nicely ask him to reroll the die. Or when you roll a natural 1 on a save-or-die, and you realize you have five different ways of getting out of it (Luck Domain, Luck Feat, Luck Feat that turns 1s into 20s, Fortune's Friend, Not This Time (Living Greyhawk only))... you just have to smile.

When you can control randomness to that extent, it's actually a very powerful mechanic. In higher level play, if you can average out all the dice rolls, it takes almost all the risk out of the game -- people don't die from 8s and 12s; they die from the 1s and 20s. With no 1s and 20s, the party cleric can estimate pretty accurately how much health everyone is going to take each round ("ok that dragon does 80 a round...") and compensate for it. But when you get crit, and that 70 point bite turns into a 210 point bite... that's when the tank dies, and the whole thing goes straight into the pot. Controlling randomness is incredibly powerful.

Additionally, Fortune's Fools can take an extra swift action a round (as long as it's a luck maneuver), which is key for gishes who should be casting quickened spells every round. And if they want to go nova for a round, Fatespinners can boost the DC of a wail of the banshee by 4, and then force a reroll on a survivor. Or he can just spend his spin on attack roll bonuses or saves.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Help building the Master of Bad Luck
Post by: AngellusMortus on June 03, 2011, 04:10:07 PM
Let me dig it up, but IIRC there was a divine power gish wizard that abused this, and made it virtually impossible to fail at anything, and the enemies virtually impossible to succeed.

EDIT :
[spoiler]The Fortune-Teller -- He Tells Fortune What To Do
Cleric (Luck and War) 1 / Wizard 4 / Runesmith 5 / Divine Oracle 2 / Fatespinner 4 / Fortune's Fool 4

I've played a build similar to this, and it's actually rather amusing to play. Very amusing. The sheer amount of rerolls you get can be pretty insane, and when the DM smirks as his power-attacking-for-full red wyrm rolls a natural 20 and is about to x3 crit you... you just nicely ask him to reroll the die. Or when you roll a natural 1 on a save-or-die, and you realize you have five different ways of getting out of it (Luck Domain, Luck Feat, Luck Feat that turns 1s into 20s, Fortune's Friend, Not This Time (Living Greyhawk only))... you just have to smile.

When you can control randomness to that extent, it's actually a very powerful mechanic. In higher level play, if you can average out all the dice rolls, it takes almost all the risk out of the game -- people don't die from 8s and 12s; they die from the 1s and 20s. With no 1s and 20s, the party cleric can estimate pretty accurately how much health everyone is going to take each round ("ok that dragon does 80 a round...") and compensate for it. But when you get crit, and that 70 point bite turns into a 210 point bite... that's when the tank dies, and the whole thing goes straight into the pot. Controlling randomness is incredibly powerful.

Additionally, Fortune's Fools can take an extra swift action a round (as long as it's a luck maneuver), which is key for gishes who should be casting quickened spells every round. And if they want to go nova for a round, Fatespinners can boost the DC of a wail of the banshee by 4, and then force a reroll on a survivor. Or he can just spend his spin on attack roll bonuses or saves.[/spoiler]

This looks really awesome, but I'm a bit confused. Doesn't your spellcasting progression get really weird taking a mix/match like that? I seemed to recall Oracle being divine advancement, and Fatespinner being arcane. Also, do you mean Fortune's Friend from Complete Scoundrel? (Or am I unfamiliar with Fortune's Fool?)
Title: Re: Help building the Master of Bad Luck
Post by: KellKheraptis on June 03, 2011, 05:20:29 PM
Let me dig it up, but IIRC there was a divine power gish wizard that abused this, and made it virtually impossible to fail at anything, and the enemies virtually impossible to succeed.

EDIT :
[spoiler]The Fortune-Teller -- He Tells Fortune What To Do
Cleric (Luck and War) 1 / Wizard 4 / Runesmith 5 / Divine Oracle 2 / Fatespinner 4 / Fortune's Fool 4

I've played a build similar to this, and it's actually rather amusing to play. Very amusing. The sheer amount of rerolls you get can be pretty insane, and when the DM smirks as his power-attacking-for-full red wyrm rolls a natural 20 and is about to x3 crit you... you just nicely ask him to reroll the die. Or when you roll a natural 1 on a save-or-die, and you realize you have five different ways of getting out of it (Luck Domain, Luck Feat, Luck Feat that turns 1s into 20s, Fortune's Friend, Not This Time (Living Greyhawk only))... you just have to smile.

When you can control randomness to that extent, it's actually a very powerful mechanic. In higher level play, if you can average out all the dice rolls, it takes almost all the risk out of the game -- people don't die from 8s and 12s; they die from the 1s and 20s. With no 1s and 20s, the party cleric can estimate pretty accurately how much health everyone is going to take each round ("ok that dragon does 80 a round...") and compensate for it. But when you get crit, and that 70 point bite turns into a 210 point bite... that's when the tank dies, and the whole thing goes straight into the pot. Controlling randomness is incredibly powerful.

Additionally, Fortune's Fools can take an extra swift action a round (as long as it's a luck maneuver), which is key for gishes who should be casting quickened spells every round. And if they want to go nova for a round, Fatespinners can boost the DC of a wail of the banshee by 4, and then force a reroll on a survivor. Or he can just spend his spin on attack roll bonuses or saves.[/spoiler]

This looks really awesome, but I'm a bit confused. Doesn't your spellcasting progression get really weird taking a mix/match like that? I seemed to recall Oracle being divine advancement, and Fatespinner being arcane. Also, do you mean Fortune's Friend from Complete Scoundrel? (Or am I unfamiliar with Fortune's Fool?)

Divine Oracle doesn't specify.  In fact, it's among the better ones for Wizards :)  And yeah, I think Fortune's Friend is what he meant.
Title: Re: Help building the Master of Bad Luck
Post by: AngellusMortus on June 03, 2011, 05:57:50 PM
Ah, so that is a solid Gish build...4 from Wizard, 5 from Runesmith, 2 from Oracle, 4 from Fatespinner and 2 from Fortunes friend. 17th level wizard casting, 9th level spells. I must say, that's impressive. Just out of curiosity, any idea why he picked Runesmith? I mean, it's a good class, I'm just curious if/how it contributes to the theme, or if he just likes Runesmith. Also, how does one get Divine Power out of that? I only see 1 level of Cleric advancement.
Title: Re: Help building the Master of Bad Luck
Post by: Gilfanon on June 03, 2011, 06:17:57 PM
Just out of curiosity, any idea why he picked Runesmith? I mean, it's a good class, I'm just curious if/how it contributes to the theme, or if he just likes Runesmith. Also, how does one get Divine Power out of that? I only see 1 level of Cleric advancement.

If I am not mistaken, the level of Cleric is for the domain granted abilities and as a potential turning source for DMM. He should be getting Divine Power from Arcane Disciple: War, and would thus use Runesmith to get Divine Power as a SLA 2/day, thereby sidestepping Arcane Disciple's 1/day/level limit. Also, Runesmiths are just awesome.
Title: Re: Help building the Master of Bad Luck
Post by: Bozwevial on June 03, 2011, 06:29:30 PM
If you could somehow snag the 9th level spell from the Destiny domain, you'd have, effectively, the reverse of Unluck: Choose the better of two rolls on every attack roll, skill or ability check, or saving throw. Might be decent persist fodder.
Title: Re: Help building the Master of Bad Luck
Post by: AngellusMortus on June 03, 2011, 07:04:06 PM
Just out of curiosity, any idea why he picked Runesmith? I mean, it's a good class, I'm just curious if/how it contributes to the theme, or if he just likes Runesmith. Also, how does one get Divine Power out of that? I only see 1 level of Cleric advancement.

If I am not mistaken, the level of Cleric is for the domain granted abilities and as a potential turning source for DMM. He should be getting Divine Power from Arcane Disciple: War, and would thus use Runesmith to get Divine Power as a SLA 2/day, thereby sidestepping Arcane Disciple's 1/day/level limit. Also, Runesmiths are just awesome.

 :facepalm How could I forget Arcane Disciple? And yes, baring that in mind, Runesmith suddenly makes a lot more sense. Brilliant. That's a helluva build...That may be exactly what I'm looking for! 
Title: Re: Help building the Master of Bad Luck
Post by: The_Mad_Linguist on June 03, 2011, 11:37:31 PM
Are you sure you aren't interested in the doomwarding-spamming artificer?

The thing about doomwarding is that gives you a reroll of anything 1/round.  Anything.  You can reroll the weather in hell if you damn well want to.  


You get seven charges for an enchantment price of 38500 gp, but practically speaking imbuing your weapon with it for a couple hours only costs 100 gp.  14 gp/reroll is a price that makes me smile.

Quote
She can also use 1 charge at any time, but no more than once per round, to reroll any die. The wielder can decide to spend a charge to reroll a die after learning the result of the original die roll.
Title: Re: Help building the Master of Bad Luck
Post by: AngellusMortus on June 04, 2011, 01:43:07 AM
Are you sure you aren't interested in the doomwarding-spamming artificer?

The thing about doomwarding is that gives you a reroll of anything 1/round.  Anything.  You can reroll the weather in hell if you damn well want to.  


You get seven charges for an enchantment price of 38500 gp, but practically speaking imbuing your weapon with it for a couple hours only costs 100 gp.  14 gp/reroll is a price that makes me smile.

Quote
She can also use 1 charge at any time, but no more than once per round, to reroll any die. The wielder can decide to spend a charge to reroll a die after learning the result of the original die roll.

Don't get me wrong, that looked awesome. In fact, potentially too awesome. I'm glad you mentioned that to me, because it's great to know and probably wins the CO aspect of my question. I think my DM might throw me out a window if I tried something like that. He doesn't mind me optimizing too much, but has a much lower tolerance than anyone on the CO boards would like (for instance, in his mind, I was pushing it making a Blackflame Zealot/Strifeleader for an insane death attack DC coupled with decent casting.)
Title: Re: Help building the Master of Bad Luck
Post by: AngellusMortus on June 04, 2011, 06:34:27 AM
On a completely unrelated note, this seems like as good a time as any to tell you that I've been absolutely in love with your picture since the first day I started lurking BG, Mad Linguist.
Title: Re: Help building the Master of Bad Luck
Post by: Phaenix on June 05, 2011, 01:31:49 AM
Just out of curiosity, any idea why he picked Runesmith? I mean, it's a good class, I'm just curious if/how it contributes to the theme, or if he just likes Runesmith. Also, how does one get Divine Power out of that? I only see 1 level of Cleric advancement.

If I am not mistaken, the level of Cleric is for the domain granted abilities and as a potential turning source for DMM. He should be getting Divine Power from Arcane Disciple: War, and would thus use Runesmith to get Divine Power as a SLA 2/day, thereby sidestepping Arcane Disciple's 1/day/level limit. Also, Runesmiths are just awesome.

 :facepalm How could I forget Arcane Disciple? And yes, baring that in mind, Runesmith suddenly makes a lot more sense. Brilliant. That's a helluva build...That may be exactly what I'm looking for! 

Use the Runesmith's 5th level ability to trade a 4th level slot for Alter Fortune 2/day. You only have to pay the xp cost once. You could use Unluck, but that has a save and allow SR, plus it's limited to debuffing, whereas Alter Fortune can help with critical saves, too.