Brilliant Gameologists Forum
The Thinktank => Min/Max It! => : Leviathan April 03, 2011, 10:41:09 AM
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This was another character concept for the Evil no-magic campaign that I'm going to be playing in. I sort of dropped it when people on another board advised that it was never going to really synergise, and certainly not work as a Tank type, but I figured I'd ask here and see what the masters think :)
I can see both assets & problems with this setup, with the problems getting more pronounced at higher levels once magic item bloat sets in, but I think that in the 1-10 bracket it could actually work:
Base:
All good saves
d8 HD
4 skill points
3/4 BaB
Yay! I'm a monk!
Ok, the 3/4 BaB really bites, HD isn't bad, but may be slightly low for tanking
Race-wise either Dragonborn Azurin for the extra feat, or Dragonborn Duskling for the extra Con and another place to dump Essentia into.
Pros:
Access to all the Soulmelds bar the Soulborn only ones
Tonnes of Essentia (possibly enough, with a couple of feats, to max out all soulmelds?)
Only need to take feats that benefit Incarnum rather than splitting them with your other side
Cons:
Will find it very hard to find locations for magic items with all those Chakra binds
Double-ups of class features (like the Chakra Bind locations)
Going to need to spend a few feats on Split Chakra & Double Chakra
What do people think? Has anyone managed to make one of these work before? I was also thinking that I may be able to convince my GM to allow me to take Double Chakra a bit earlier considering the build, and possibly allow slightly earlier access to some of the Chakra binds due to the double-up.
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The problem with Dragonborn Azurin is that you don't gain the bonus feat. And the biggest problems you have, you mentioned: lack of slots for melds and items. Even with Spilt/Double Chakra. That said, it could work, but I doubt the payout would be worth the results.
Honestly, if it's allowed, you'd be better off going Crusader/Incarnate for a tank or Swordsage/Incarnate for a skill monkey. Totemist/Swordsage would be interesting as well.
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Yeah, Totemist/Swordsage or Incarnate/Swordsage, or Totemist/Warblade or Incarnate/Crusader.
Totemist/Incarnate can be done if you are very careful with your chakra binds, but you'll run out of bind slots eventually. It takes a ton of effort to keep everything in check, as you can't change your Melds/Binds without having to recalculate everything.
There's also the problem of wasted Soulmelds. You are going to have a lot of essentia, but you still can't fill everything all at once (until Incarnate 20). Some of those soulmelds aren't going to get used as much.
And, finally, you end up focusing more on the Totemist side, using the Incarnate for buffs rather than the utility it can provide (incorporeality, fly speed, fortification, etc). You'd be better off using the Incarnate for a caster or Martial Adept.
Side note: Dragonborn removes all of the Azurin's and Duskling's racial abilities, such as the Duskling's speed bonus. It also removes both race's Essentia point. Dragonborn does not mix well with MoI races.
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The 2 Totem melds have to come from Totemist 11.
Heart and Soul have to come from Incarnate or Necrocarnate or major trickery.
Otherwise the level 4 Psi power gets all the rest of them, cheapest.
The level 8 incarnum (?) domain Cleric spell, maxes out the essential points, or Necrocarnate.
X 20 // +1 BAB 1 / Y 19 ... gets the +20 BAB. Not that it's all that needed in Gestalt.
(I really ought to get this book out of storage.)
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The 2 Totem melds have to come from Totemist 11.
Heart and Soul have to come from Incarnate or Necrocarnate or major trickery.
Otherwise the level 4 Psi power gets all the rest of them, cheapest.
The level 8 incarnum (?) domain Cleric spell, maxes out the essential points, or Necrocarnate.
X 20 // +1 BAB 1 / Y 19 ... gets the +20 BAB. Not that it's all that needed in Gestalt.
(I really ought to get this book out of storage.)
I've been in a number of gestalt games, and NONE of them did BAB like that, all used fractional BAB and saves. The DM can interpret it like that, but there's no reason for them to, and as a player you do not get to interpret that sort of thing.
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a level of soul eater couldn't hurt, if you've not decided on race
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Ah, I was not aware that Dragonborn stripped out the bonus Essentia and Feat, that's kind of useless to me then ><
I also probably should have mentioned at the start that this character will only reach a maximum of lvl 10, hence my thinking that it may actually work at this level range.
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Dragonborn warforged are about the only race really worth it beyond stat bonuses. The vast majority of other races lose everything else.
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The 2 Totem melds have to come from Totemist 11.
Heart and Soul have to come from Incarnate or Necrocarnate or major trickery.
Otherwise the level 4 Psi power gets all the rest of them, cheapest.
The level 8 incarnum (?) domain Cleric spell, maxes out the essential points, or Necrocarnate.
X 20 // +1 BAB 1 / Y 19 ... gets the +20 BAB. Not that it's all that needed in Gestalt.
(I really ought to get this book out of storage.)
I've been in a number of gestalt games, and NONE of them did BAB like that, all used fractional BAB and saves. The DM can interpret it like that, but there's no reason for them to, and as a player you do not get to interpret that sort of thing.
Perhaps, and as far as homegames go, it's completely reasonable.
Old CO used the non-fractional right away.
Mostly because BAB +20 can't compete
with the easy Divine 9s and Arcane 9s.
Since your game is avoiding that kind of cheese ...
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Dragonborn warforged are about the only race really worth it beyond stat bonuses. The vast majority of other races lose everything else.
To my understanding, Elans benefit from it as well without losing much, too.
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Dragonborn warforged are about the only race really worth it beyond stat bonuses. The vast majority of other races lose everything else.
To my understanding, Elans benefit from it as well without losing much, too.
Elans lose everything that makes them worthwhile, so no, they do lose quite a bit. Not many benefits from just the Aberration type and (psionic) subtype.
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Another problem with Totemist//Incarnate is the wording of the Gestalt rules. You'll want to make sure your meldshaping is tracked separately, like spellcasting, rather than together, like class features (as the latter would basically give you Incarnate meldshaping with access to the Totemist list and Totem bind). And even if you get the better interpretation, you'll need tons of Split Chakra and Double Chakra feats.
It occurs to me that a Rogue//Incarnate could get some crazy skill bonuses, and an Evil or Lawful one could get some very nice Sneak Attack damage even if he wouldn't be the combat monster that a meldshaper//martial adept could be.
I seem to recall you said psionics still worked even though magic doesn't? Incarnate//Psion might do fairly well. There are several ways to divide buffs and attacks to make you a credible threat at all times with bursts of damage or defense when you absolutely need it.
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Either incarnate//shaper, incarnate//telepath, or totemist//egoist would be amazing here. The first for sheer utility, the second for massive bonuses on telepathy powers, and the third for melee awesomeness.
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Elans lose everything that makes them worthwhile, so no, they do lose quite a bit. Not many benefits from just the Aberration type and (psionic) subtype.
Aberration qualifies you for Rapidstrike; Elan and DwK are the only LA +0 races I can think of that qualify, so you could make a case for (say) a Dragonborn Elan Totemist.
There's some other stuff you can do with Aberration subtype, but most of it is on characters that don't necessarily gain much from being dragonborn iirc.
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Daelkyr Half Blood are also +0 LA aberrations. Not sure if they're any better than Elan for King of Smack (maybe if you can get your hands on a second Crawling Gauntlet), or if Leviathan can use Eberron stuff, but they may be worth keeping in mind.
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Just to derail this thread slightly... I'm applying to a low magic gestalt game where one side has to be Fighter. I'm considering either Incarnate or Totemist. I've tinkered with Totemists before, but have no experience with Incarnates. For general usefulness, yet still being competent in melee, is Totemist my best bet? Or does Incarnate actually have more to offer?
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Just to derail this thread slightly... I'm applying to a low magic gestalt game where one side has to be Fighter. I'm considering either Incarnate or Totemist. I've tinkered with Totemists before, but have no experience with Incarnates. For general usefulness, yet still being competent in melee, is Totemist my best bet? Or does Incarnate actually have more to offer?
If you plan on spending your feats on Charger stuff, Totemist is your best friend. You get a ton of attacks that benefit from Charging, and can get free Pounce.
If you want some utility to go with your Fighter half, Incarnate. You get more goodies than the Totemist, and can self-buff.
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Make sure you use some good fighter ACFs, too, such as thug, dungeoncrasher, and Zhentarim soldier.
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Just to derail this thread slightly... I'm applying to a low magic gestalt game where one side has to be Fighter. I'm considering either Incarnate or Totemist. I've tinkered with Totemists before, but have no experience with Incarnates. For general usefulness, yet still being competent in melee, is Totemist my best bet? Or does Incarnate actually have more to offer?
If you plan on spending your feats on Charger stuff, Totemist is your best friend. You get a ton of attacks that benefit from Charging, and can get free Pounce.
If you want some utility to go with your Fighter half, Incarnate. You get more goodies than the Totemist, and can self-buff.
Not that Incarnates are at all incompetent in combat if that's what they decide to do one day. Lawful and Evil are good for melee, and Chaotic can help with ranged. (A Chaotic Incarnate//Fighter could be scary with a bow.)
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Sinfire - Any particular Incarnate soulmelds to definitely check out for self-buffing? I know Totemist can be a beast, especially once they hit level 2 and can bind to their chakra. Mmm... Girallon Arms.
Unfortunately, everything from UA (except for gestalt rules) is banned, as is Dungeonscape and anything Faerunian. So all of those variants are out, Lycan. The source list is actually pretty broad, I think you just got lucky in picking a few that are banned. Any other good variants you'd recommend? Those Divine ones from Comp Champ worthy anything?
And, Crimson, I might actually consider ranged. I've been doing a lot of melee lately, so changing it up a bit might be interesting. I know there is Sighting Gloves that help out. Any other melds you might recommend?
Thanks, all.
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Sinfire - Any particular Incarnate soulmelds to definitely check out for self-buffing? I know Totemist can be a beast, especially once they hit level 2 and can bind to their chakra. Mmm... Girallon Arms.
Unfortunately, everything from UA (except for gestalt rules) is banned, as is Dungeonscape and anything Faerunian. So all of those variants are out, Lycan. The source list is actually pretty broad, I think you just got lucky in picking a few that are banned. Any other good variants you'd recommend? Those Divine ones from Comp Champ worthy anything?
And, Crimson, I might actually consider ranged. I've been doing a lot of melee lately, so changing it up a bit might be interesting. I know there is Sighting Gloves that help out. Any other melds you might recommend?
Thanks, all.
Let's see...
Crystal Helm
Airstep Sandals/Impulse Boots
Lifebond Vestments
Keeneye Lenses/Mage's Spectacles
Apparition Ribbon
Mantle of Flame
Spellward Shirt
Vitality Belt
Fellmist Robe
Incarnate Avatar
Those are not sorted by slot, so there will be overlap. You'll need the party's help for the Mage's Spectacles (since you are going to spend a ton of cash on your weapon/armor), but you really can't go wrong using UMD.
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Well, you'll get a lot more out of the aligned incarnate soulmelds if you take Shape Soulmeld as a totemist.
Go Chaotic Good or Chaotic Evil for a nice mix of melee and ranged.
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Incarnate Avatar, if you're going Chaotic. Fellmist Robe or Wind Cloak offers protection against ranged enemies (the latter especially if you bind it).
Keep in mind for Rapid Meldshaping: Apparition Ribbon (vs. incorporeals)
And as a Fighter, you might consider just getting Point Blank Shot rather than binding the Sighting Gloves-- it'll free up a bind and an item slot.
And of course, for general advice, there's an Incarnate Handbook somewhere around here.
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I think my brain has finally been convinced to drop this idea :)
Now on to the Draconic-Creature Dragonwrought Jungle Kobold Totemist/Swordsage!!
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You can still take Shape Soulmeld for alignment-based melds on your Totemist. Just don't go Neutral and you're set.
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Thanks for all of the tips.
Sadly, the DM forgot to include MoI on his list of banned books. And ToM, Dragon Magic, Psionics, etc. *sigh* We went from a huge source list to relatively limited resources rather quickly.
I did not know there was an incarnate handbook though. I'll have to hunt around for it and see what I can find.
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Thanks for all of the tips.
Sadly, the DM forgot to include MoI on his list of banned books. And ToM, Dragon Magic, Psionics, etc. *sigh* We went from a huge source list to relatively limited resources rather quickly.
I did not know there was an incarnate handbook though. I'll have to hunt around for it and see what I can find.
Here's the general one, (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=551.0) and here's the Incarnate-specific one. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6920.0) This one is for the Totemist. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2943.0)
Did he give a reason for banning all of those balanced and useful books?
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Thanks for the links. No reason was given, though most likely it is due to lack of significant knowledge regarding how those systems work.
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Thanks for the links. No reason was given, though most likely it is due to lack of significant knowledge regarding how those systems work.
Incarnum can be complex, but Dragon Magic? Psionics? If he has CArc, then Dragon Magic should be allowed nearly by default (just ignore the parts he doesn't understand). ToM, the Bo9S, and MoI are all somewhat complex (especially the MoI; its the second most complicated book in DnD, and the hardest subsystem)
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I always saw MoI as being similar to Go: Simple to learn, challenging to master. It's pretty simple to play an inept Incarnate, but difficult to run a competent one.
I'm honestly not surprised he banned psionics, and I can probably assemble an argument pretty close to one he might present. Doesn't mean I agree with it-- I've just heard it a lot. *sigh*
Dragon Magic mostly a compilation of dragon-themed tricks for other classes. The most original thing in there is the Dragon Pacts. (The Dragonfire Adept is just a Warlock reskin.)
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I always saw MoI as being similar to Go: Simple to learn, challenging to master.
Learning the basic mechanic was like learning WoD: More difficult than it needed to be, and requires you to cross-reference different pages. Had they fixed that latter problem the MoI would have seen better sales.
Anyone familiar with Exlated's basic mechanics will understand the MoI fairly quickly though.
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Exlated
Is that like ExLax?
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Well I found out Dragon Magic and Races of the Dragon have been banned because in the homebrew world there is no place for dragons (or at least dragons interacting with the lesser races). As for the others, still not sure why they're banned.
But I did find out we get 1 free LA. Yay.
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Dragonborn warforged are about the only race really worth it beyond stat bonuses. The vast majority of other races lose everything else.
Although dragonborn does have some amusing interaction/negation with Hellbred.
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If :
Totem 11 / stuff // stuff / Necrocarnate 13
... with "stuff" intended for as much as needed from the 504 feats thread.
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19866566/The_True_Dilettante_-_New_Feat_Record_-_504_feats
Get the all the feats that are specific to Incarnum.
Have a double Heart and double Soul.
All essential pools filled, etc ...
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I've always found Magic of Incarnum pretty easy to explain once you get past two hurdles. First, explaining the difference between "shaped" and "bound", and second, getting through the idea that the system is based on allocation rather than expenditure. Once they get used to the idea that you're moving your essentia around from one superpower to another rather than expending it to do things, I've never had further trouble explaining the general systems to people.
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Well I found out Dragon Magic and Races of the Dragon have been banned because in the homebrew world there is no place for dragons (or at least dragons interacting with the lesser races). As for the others, still not sure why they're banned.
So... you're playing "Dungeons"?
This is why I prefer inclusive book lists. If you say "everything except X" and then someone comes in with "Y" that you've never heard of, you have to learn it quickly, accept not knowing what your players might bring to the table, or just ban it too. On the other hand, if you say "X, Y, and Z, nothing else", you know more or less what you're getting into and your players don't have to keep running to you for approval.
But I did find out we get 1 free LA. Yay.
Catfolk (RotW) with Catfolk Pounce and Neraph Charge (Planar Handbook)?
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Yeah, I actually asked the DM for a set booklist instead of an expanding banned list, but he has yet to comply. For the free LA I got him to accept Moradin(Lolth)-Touched with some refluff. I had thought about Catfolk, but they just didn't seem to mesh well with the setting. Besides, having a 24 CON as a level 1 character is always nice. ;)