Brilliant Gameologists Forum
The Thinktank => Min/Max It! => : Eviltedzies March 07, 2011, 11:37:16 PM
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Questions about the Phantom Template
Edits in red.
During my last dnd session, our group came upon an interesting notion. My character has the phantom template (MM5) and after a rather one sided fight with a giant centipede we began to debate the possible ways one could abuse the phantom template.
Incorporeal subtype can be found here. (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Incorporeal_Subtype)
Phantom template can be found on page 130 of MM5.
Now most of the abilities granted are nifty in there own right. The ability to shift from corporeal to incorporeal and back as a swift action is not too shabby. Neither is keeping your charisma based deflection bonus to AC even while corporeal. But the kicker comes with the Phantom Strike ability. Being able to cast damage opponents with spells, melee attacks, and ranged attacks, and other attacks that require only momentary contact WHILE INCORPOREAL is very very good.
Currently I am using phantom strike to set up repeated Iajutsu strikes or just full power attacking with two hands. But one thing we noticed was that nowhere in the Incorporeal subtype or in the phantom template does it say what happens if a piece of your gear is seperated from your person while incorporeal. The closest reference I could find was the Ghostform spell from Spell Compendium.
Questions:
1. Does an item dropped by an incorporeal creature become corporeal? Or does it stay incorporeal?
A1: Any item dropped by an incorporeal creature becomes corporeal.
2. If any incorporeal creature is weightless, does that by extension make his gear and anything carried weightless as well?
A2. Yes, but DM disgression is advised.
3. Due to the way phantom strike is worded, it would seem that I could fire an arrow while incorporeal and the arrow would still strike for normal damage if it hits. Even though the arrow is still technically incorporeal. Would the arrow continue through the target after dealing its' damage?
A3. The arrow would indeed become corporeal after it is fired but, thanks to Phantom strike, it would still count as incorporeal for the purposes of bypassing armor, shield, and natural armor.
4. What would be a resonable ammount of weight a character with the phantom template could carry with him while going incorporeal, if any? My DM and I have said for now up to my heavy load so long as I can hold it all.
A4. Reasonably a phantom creature should only be able to carry its' maximum load before he goes incorporeal. Bags of holding help circumvent this issue.
5. Assuming you can bring other possession with you when you shift to incorporeal, could you bring along living creatures as long as they fell within your weight limit? If so would it cross into the realm of DM interpretation as to what happens ect....
A5. The nature of the Incorporeal shift ability is somewhat lacking. As such, it would be reasonable to say that you cannot bring living creatures with you unless they are stored in an item like a bag of holding ect...
6. For the love of god it has been irritating me to no end.... can incorporeal creatures fly? Their description mentions that they can float around 360 degress, but it says nowhere in their profile that they have a fly speed or how fast it might be. For now my DM and I are assuming they use the creatures base speed at perfect manueverability.
A6. Located here. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040928a) An incorporeal creature can fly at perfect manueverability. For now I assume it uses its' base speed as its' flight speed.
7. If I throw an incorporeal object at a creature while I am incorporeal. Will said object still deal its' normal damage thanks to Phantom Strike? If so, could I throw... lets say.... a large incorporeal boulder at the target and have it still deal its' size based damage? (Getting steamrolled by a weightless boulder.... now THAT is funny.)
A7. The boulder would become corporeal upon leaving contact with the phantom character. It would still ignore armor, shield, and natural armor however thanks to Phantom Strike.
I would appreciate some insight into my queries. I am working with my DM so that he doesn't strangle me for abusing my lovely phantom template so for now we have agreed that I will keep the shinanigans within reason. (I.E. Not dropping heavy object from the sky WHILE they are incorporeal.) :D
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Questions about the Phantom Template
Questions:
1. Does an item dropped by an incorporeal creature become corporeal? Or does it stay incorporeal?
it depends on the nature of the power, and the nature of the object. regardless, you have two possibilities. (a) dropped items resume normal status. ie corporeal objects become corporeal and incorporeal objects become incorporeal again. due to the weight characteristic of the incorporeal rules, this would allow for oddities such as taking heavy objects up high and dropping them for damage. or (b) they don't. in which case you have such strangeness as walking into a house and randomly changing small items incorporeal, and letting everyone get frustrated trying to deal with it... or other related strangeness, see my marooning comment below.
I would personally lean toward the idea that this is a personal touch effect that ceases to affect an object once it is no longer being touched, though the phantom strike ability seems to be pointing at case (b) instead. if you do decide to do case (b), then i would put an arbitrary (dm) time limit as to how long affected items remain in the altered state before returning on their own. maybe x amount of time per character level or something.
2. If any incorporeal creature is weightless, does that by extension make his gear and anything carried weightless as well?
if we are allowing up to max load, which seems reasonable given the rules and/or lack of them, it would seem to so do. abuse on the part of one of my characters would have me as the dm making them calculate the gear weight they are carrying, and starting to impose subdual damage from the weight suddenly returning....
3. Due to the way phantom strike is worded, it would seem that I could fire an arrow while incorporeal and the arrow would still strike for normal damage if it hits. Even though the arrow is still technically incorporeal. Would the arrow continue through the target after dealing its' damage?
no. if you use case (b) from above, then what i think is happening is that you are becoming corporeal long enough for the arrow to be fired normally on the prime, and then returning to your incorporeal state. the arrow is thus not incorporeal. neither are your melee weapons or spell effects at the moment of attack, for that matter.
if you use case (a) then it still becomes corporeal once it leaves your possession, and melee effects are a special exception.
4. What would be a reasonable amount of weight a character with the phantom template could carry with him while going incorporeal, if any? My DM and I have said for now up to my heavy load so long as I can hold it all.
the base creature can carry up to a heavy load, thus the incorporeal creature can do the same. the template does not affect that one way or another.
5. Assuming you can bring other possession with you when you shift to incorporeal, could you bring along living creatures as long as they fell within your weight limit? If so would it cross into the realm of DM interpretation as to what happens ect....
i would say no, self only. however, if you can fit them inside an item... bag of holding, etc., i would think that they count as part of the item at that point and then you could. having a couple of allies hanging out of bags of holding or something similar and attempting to attack might veer into abuse, assuming they can surmount attacking as incorporeal, as they do not have nor benefit from your special attack abilities. then again, if we are using case (b), then a phantom character could stuff a victim in a bag of holding, shift, and then maroon the person as an incorporeal being, sooooooooo.
6. For the love of god it has been irritating me to no end.... can incorporeal creatures fly? Their description mentions that they can float around 360 degress, but it says nowhere in their profile that they have a fly speed or how fast it might be. For now my DM and I are assuming they use the creatures base speed at perfect manueverability.
you have access to whatever movement rates you normally have, but are not restricted by gravity or material objects. i suppose it would look odd to "walk" straight up, though. ^^ so unless you have a fly speed, then no.
7. If I throw an incorporeal object at a creature while I am incorporeal. Will said object still deal its' normal damage thanks to Phantom Strike? If so, could I throw... lets say.... a large incorporeal boulder at the target and have it still deal its' size based damage? (Getting steamrolled by a weightless boulder.... now THAT is funny.)
see case (a) and (b) above. i think objects will deal normal damage and be corporeal. so if you are using the damage by weight for improvised weapons from complete warrior, then it could get silly.
I would appreciate some insight into my queries. I am working with my DM so that he doesn't strangle me for abusing my lovely phantom template so for now we have agreed that I will keep the shinanigans within reason. (I.E. Not dropping heavy object from the sky WHILE they are incorporeal.) :D
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8. Would a Hulking Hurler with this template and sufficient Strength be able to make the planet incorporeal?
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The following two articles by WOTC helped answer some of my questions.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/gloss/window&term=Glossary_dnd_incorporealsubtype&alpha=
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040928a
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8. Would a Hulking Hurler with this template and sufficient Strength be able to make the planet incorporeal?
If your DM is insane, then yes. 99% of the rest of the time, no.
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8. Would a Hulking Hurler with this template and sufficient Strength be able to make the planet incorporeal?
If your DM is insane, then yes. 99% of the rest of the time, no.
98 % of GMs are insane, the other 2 are getting there :smirk
I don't have the MM5. Is it an undead template, or do you still count as humanoid?
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Phantom is a template that can be applied to any corporeal creature.
The template itself has no set LA which means the only way for a player to obtain it is for a DM to allow it. The only even remote downside to the template is you gain a weakness to Ghost Touch weapons even when you are not incorporeal.
or do you still count as humanoid?
Animals and Vermin with this template become Magical beasts with the augmented subtype. Otherwise you maintain your original type.
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8. Would a Hulking Hurler with this template and sufficient Strength be able to make the planet incorporeal?
IIRC, the recommendation is that you use your charisma to determine your carrying capacity while incorporeal.
So you'd have to have a sky-high charisma as well.
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Question 8. Could a phantom use phantom strike to say...oh... I dunno..... reach inside someones body and crush their heart? :smirk
I sudden squeeze is only a "brief" contact so to speak. And it would make a malisciously evil assassin idea.
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Sadly no is the short answer for the same exact reasons you can use Greater Teleport to appear in the head of a huge+ creature.
I also recall somewhere the same question came up over a pair of gloves that could phase back and forth and if memory serves again no. But due to the gloves not able able to phase in and out during another action.
If I were you're DM I'd say just just because. You can't gain a free saveless touch attack that kills people without selling your mind, body, soul, and becoming my BBEG named Phage. :p
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Actually I thought Phage was a lovely and tragic woman. I would gladly serve as her henchman even at the risk of death. :D
If you've read the lore behind her hehe awsome story. Then again if you want a BBEG I'd go with The First.
And in regards to my question, I just wanted to know if it was legal via RAW interpretation of the rules. I do agree most DM's wouldn't even consider allowing such an ability without serious costs.
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Question 8. Could a phantom use phantom strike to say...oh... I dunno..... reach inside someones body and crush their heart? :smirk
I sudden squeeze is only a "brief" contact so to speak. And it would make a malisciously evil assassin idea.
This is D&D. Medium level characters can swim in lava and emerge refreshed. What makes you think that a squeeze directly on their heart will do anything more than tickle them? :p
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What makes you think that a squeeze directly on their heart will do anything more than tickle them?
The same way a medium size creature can suddenly break through wooden doors, metal doors, and any other object assuming the player can make the required strength check. (http://www.dnd-wiki.org/wiki/SRD:Dungeons)
So now I ask you.... a 1 inch thick locked wooden door is a strength check of 15 to break. How hard do you think it will be to crush a fist sized mass of muscle? Or for that matter, forget the entire heart, how hard to snap a coronary artery?
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What makes you think that a squeeze directly on their heart will do anything more than tickle them?
The same way a medium size creature can suddenly break through wooden doors, metal doors, and any other object assuming the player can make the required strength check. (http://www.dnd-wiki.org/wiki/SRD:Dungeons)
So now I ask you.... a 1 inch thick locked wooden door is a strength check of 15 to break. How hard do you think it will be to crush a fist sized mass of muscle? Or for that matter, forget the entire heart, how hard to snap a coronary artery?
A puny nameless wooden door would indeed snap easily.
The coronary artery of the hero that cut his way out of the tarrasque's digestive system, fell from the highest mountain and got up by himself and then went into a relaxing swim inside a volcano will be considerably harder I believe.
You're very wrong to believe that the flesh of an hero is easier to crush than wood or even adamantine.
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The coronary artery of the hero that cut his way out of the tarrasque's digestive system, fell from the highest mountain and got up by himself and then went into a relaxing swim inside a volcano will be considerably harder I believe.
If I managed to get that close AND get my incorporeal hand inside said epic heros chest then I think he deserves to die.
Otherwise, yes I will probobly be getting my arse handed to me shortly.
On a more practical note, by the rules there is no mechanical difference between the heart of a level 1 peasant and a level 20 hero except perhaps higher fortitude saves. I am also going off the fact that a heart is roughly a fist sized object, an artery is even smaller. It does not take much force/pressure to break object of that size especially if you have a high strength score.
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By mechanical rules hearts don't exist. If we used Break rules for body parts any slightly strong monster would be able to pop a skulls after winning a grapple check. But we don't because it's fucking retarded. I don't know if it counts as catgirls if it's Biology instead of Physics but either way, stop it.
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Dam... I forgot about the poor catgirls. :bigeye
Attention! I retract all previous statements about crushing hearts for fear of harming sexy cat girls. That is all! :lmao
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Tangent
[spoiler]
Actually I thought Phage was a lovely and tragic woman. I would gladly serve as her henchman even at the risk of death. :D
If you've read the lore behind her hehe awsome story. Then again if you want a BBEG I'd go with The First.
And in regards to my question, I just wanted to know if it was legal via RAW interpretation of the rules. I do agree most DM's wouldn't even consider allowing such an ability without serious costs.
Haven't fully read the block, just book 1 but I have the rest in the mail and will be reading them soon though ^_^.
Phage isn't lovely or tragic. Jeska on the other hand...
I hope The First does something useful in the later books, hugging people is kinda lame and his internal monologue already had him saying he failed to kill Kamahl twice. While the green barbarian was bleeding from the stomach from from Phage, while starving, presumably out of water, while crossing a desert for several days, while asleep! Prey doesn't come on a silver platter better than that.[/spoiler]
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heh, i didn't to too badly considering i was going mostly off of memory. ^^ missed the part about flying, due to my slipshod recollection of the rotg articles. getting to bypass armor and such is bonus. =D especially on ranged. i don't see how this missed an la. anyhow. thanks for the edits. =D
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Eviltedzies, is your DM imposing a Level Adjustment on you? If so, how high? I know the one in MM5 is listed as non-playable, but for YEARS I've been trying to figure out the right way to make The Twins.
Phantom + Dvati + Gnomish Quickrazors + Iajutsu Strike is a huge step in the right direction.
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SorO_Lost: Hehe you will enjoy the rest of the books. And yes, I agree the first should have done more. :D
Eviltedzies, is your DM imposing a Level Adjustment on you? If so, how high?
My DM allowed me to take the Phantom template as a +2 LA. :lmao
Atm I am using either Iajutsu Strikes or full attacking with a two hands and power attack as my melee damage output.
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+2 LA. :lmao
Sounds about right. It has nothing besides what you listed. What ECL is the party?
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Currently our ECL is 6. It is only a party of about 4 people but our DM has allowed each of us a rather absurd LA buyoff ammount.
Not listing the actual races themselfs the part consists of.....
Bard 6
DM variant tropical Barbarian 8
DM variant Sorcerer 6
Tenken 6 (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Tenken_(3.5e_Class))
The barbarian is 8 because she is the only one of us who chose a race that had no LA to payoff.