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The Thinktank => Min/Max It! => Topic started by: Kerberos on February 18, 2011, 07:01:27 PM

Title: Looking for help building a Pathfinder Cleric
Post by: Kerberos on February 18, 2011, 07:01:27 PM
Hi, Im building a human cleric of Iomedae for a Pathfinder game, Ive never actually played a 3.5 game before,  so Im looking for some help from the hopefully community. Were allowed to use material from the pathfinder Core Rulebook and the Advanced Players guide. Other material might be allowed by the GM on a case by case basis, but anything selected mainly for min/maxing purposes probably wont fly.

We start at level 3 and stats are 15 point buy. The concept is complicated somewhat though because the game will be using a homebrew/Birthright overlay. We will be starting without domains, but will probably get domains at some point during the campaign.

That means however that from the 15 points we also have to buy up our Bloodline strength. Bloodline strength is quite powerful. I wont go into to much detail about the homebrew system here because it gets complicated, but the benefits from bloodline depends on the type of bloodline. The Key benefits of the bloodline Im considering is stat boost, meaning +2 to one or two out of the stats Wis, Con and Cha, maxed hit point at all levels (and a free toughness feat) and a +1 bonus to hit and to AC for me and all allies within 30 feet as well as a +4 bonus to 2 Birthright skills Command and Warfare (which Id like to max). To get these benefits Id need 18 in Bloodline strength. This puts me in the situation of having a severe Stat point shortage. Im basically considering 2 options, though other suggestion are certainly welcome.

Option 1
A hybrid caster/melee cleric I imagine his stats going something like this.

Str 12
Dex 7
Con 12
Int 12
Char 13 (+2 at level 4 from bloodline)
Wis 13 (+2 from bloodline bonus)
Bloodline 15 (+2 human bonus, boosted to 18 at level 4)

Id probably go plate armour, longsword and heavy shield. My uncertainty regarding this option is basically whether a cleric with such low strength and dex can be efficient in melee combat even with cleric buffs? I realize the Int is somewhat high for a cleric, but if possible Id rather not put it under 10 at least because as mentioned Id like to max command and warfare and still have a few skill points to spare.

This leads me to the second option which is giving up on the melee part and going for a pure caster cleric. I imagine a stat array something like this:

Str 7
Dex 7
Con 12
Int 12
Char 14 (+2 at level 4 from bloodline)
Wis 15 (+2 from bloodline bonus)
Bloodline 15 (+2 human bonus, still boosted to 18 and level 4)

Im still a bit vague on feat choices, but Im considering the Selective channelling. For domains I was planning to take the Heroism subdomains and the Archon subdomain (only subdomains allowed)
 
The party aside from me consists of a rogue, a cleric focused on summoning and item creation and a melee focused Summoner with an Eidolon. Does anyone have an opinion on whether one of these option is more viable or whether they should be tweaked?
Title: Re: Looking for help building a Pathfinder Cleric
Post by: juton on February 19, 2011, 02:31:10 AM
The whole bloodline element throws a wrench into the works for me because I don't know how it works. It sounds like you should have decent defenses at low levels (HP/AC) but I think your offensive punch may be lacking. I wouldn't build a melee character with anything less than a 16 strength to start. If you really want to melee you'll have to lower your int, con or cha, since you get max HP per level and Clerics get strong fortitude saves dumping con may not be that dumb a move.

How are you getting longsword proficiency? Using a greatsword is generally better than using a longsword and shield, if you can use a greatsword. The good cleric buffs don't start until level 7, if you are starting at level 1 your buffs will either be very short in duration or not do much.

Honestly, with the restrictions on domains I'd recommend the Cleric's rugged outdoorsy cousin the Druid. Your low stats won't be that much of a hinderance because your animal companion can take your place in combat. If you have access to the 3.5 Spell Compendium you'll have lots of fun spells to cast in combat, and you'll still be useful out of combat and if the situation really gets hairy you can use Wildshape to adapt to the situation.
Title: Re: Looking for help building a Pathfinder Cleric
Post by: Kerberos on February 19, 2011, 07:05:25 AM
Thanks for the answer, the bloodlines do complicate things and deliberatly didn't go into to much detail since it's homebrew, but just lined up what i felt where the strongest options, but for example the Charisma boost could be replaced with a permanent Protection against evil effect or a +2 bonus to Perception (which also mankes perception a class skill).

I get longsword proficiency for free from worshipping Iomedae, I could obviously pick up greatsword but it would takle a feat. Would that be worth it? As for level we start at level 3 halfway to level 4.

Getting Str 16 friom the start would be really hard, but I could go.

Str 15 (raised to 16 at level 8)
Dex 7
Con 8-10
Int 10-12
Wis 13(+2)
Cha 12 (+2 at level 4)
Blood (15+2) (raised to 18 at level 4).

How about option 2, the pure caster cleric? Is that a viable option? I'll also look into druids, but for flavour reasons I'd prefer a cleric if I can make it work.
Title: Re: Looking for help building a Pathfinder Cleric
Post by: Kerberos on February 19, 2011, 08:12:30 AM
Thanks for the answer, the bloodlines do complicate things and deliberately didn't go into to much detail since it's homebrew, but just lined up what i felt where the strongest options. I talked to the GM and along the lines of Borthright there might be options for raising the blood score through other means, so i've decided to nerf my blood score and instead go with an array along the lines of:

Str 14 +2
Dex 7
Con 12
Cha 12
Wis 14 +2
Int 12
Blood 13

It does mean however that I won't get the AoE boost to ac and to hit or the maxed HP, at least not from the start, but I might be able to work my way up to that through the game. Does that seem more reasonable?

As for the weapon choices I get longsword proficiency for free from worshipping Iomedae, I could obviously pick up greatsword but it would take a feat. Would that be worth it? As for level we start at level 3 halfway to level 4. As for other feats, power attack is nice right?
Title: Re: Looking for help building a Pathfinder Cleric
Post by: veekie on February 19, 2011, 09:52:52 AM
If possible, the bloodlines actual mechanics would help.
Now, stat wise, charisma is tertiary at best, falling behind the physical scores unless you forsee much use of turning/domain powers. So get that Wisdom up.
Title: Re: Looking for help building a Pathfinder Cleric
Post by: Sunic_Flames on February 19, 2011, 04:12:04 PM
Ok, here's the thing. You are playing Pathfinder. You are also a Caster. This means you win, because it is Caster Edition. However the game will personally come to your house and kick you in the nuts if you dare to swing a sword around in it. The game will also personally deliver a kick to your groin if you make a character of any kind with less than 14 Con. Now you're 15 PB, so you're going to have a lot of 7s.

18 Wis, racial bonus for the standard 20.
14 Con.
10 to any two of: Str/Dex/Int/Cha.
7 to anything I didn't mention. Including that random useless homebrew thing you mentioned. No fucking way you're supporting MAD on a 15 PB, especially when the DM added even more stats, without compensating. Hm, does knocking that down to 7 give you 4 free points? If it does you can get a 16 Con, like a proper Pathfailure SoL spammer.

Now that you're playing Caster Edition properly, spam save or loses until you get bored, and go play a game that has actual variety in playable characters.
Title: Re: Looking for help building a Pathfinder Cleric
Post by: Kerberos on February 20, 2011, 04:34:54 PM
thor=veekie link=topic=11096.msg379962#msg379962 date=1298119972]
If possible, the bloodlines actual mechanics would help.
Now, stat wise, charisma is tertiary at best, falling behind the physical scores unless you forsee much use of turning/domain powers. So get that Wisdom up.
[/quote]

The bloodline mechanics are based on, but not identical to those from Birthright. Having a bloodline allows you to collect supernatural power (regency) from ruling a domain which for a cleric would probably be a Temple. Regency allows you to boost actions taken on the domain level (those are standard Birthright rules, which you might know). In this game however regency can also be used much like Hero points, only about half as powerful, the details haven't been fully worked out. We won't start with a domain though, so what matters at early levels is the blood powers. We buy a blood ability which is multiplies by 2 to get a blood score. Blood score is compared with the table below to see how many bonus HP and Blood powers we get.

Blood Score    Mod   Mi   Ma   Gr    HP Bonus
20   1   1   -   -   2
22   1   1   -   -   2
24   2   2   -   -   3
26   2   2   -   -   3
28   3   2   -   -   3
30   3   1   1   -   7
32   4   2   1   -   8
34   4   2   1   -   8
36   5   2   2   -   9
38   5   2   2   -   9
40   6   3   2   -   10
So for example Blood ability 10 gives 20 Bloodline score 1 minor ability and 2 bonus hp, Blood ability 15 gives 30 Bloodline score and 1 minor + 1 major. Where it gets really complicated is that your blood line belong to a certain God and that God determines what powers you can take. Also it will be possible to raise you bloodline though the game, for example by blood theft (stabbing another person with a blood score though the heart), but it's not clear how easy or hard that will be. Some of the nicer blood abilities are

Minor: +2 to a stat, (however only certain stats can be boosted, one god allows wis, cha and con, and no other gods allow you to boost Wis, Iomedea for example allows boosting Str, int and Cha.)
Major: +2 to 2 stats (same constraints)

Minor (Ex): You the benefits of the Toughness feat.
Major (Ex): You always get the maximum number of hit points for your class and level (+ the toughness feat).


Minor (Ex): You get a +2 divine bonus on all Command checks and Warcraft checks. Command and Warcraft are always considered class skills for you.
Major (Ex/Su): The divine bonus to skill checks is increased to +4. Your allies within 30-ft. get a +1 divine bonus on attack rolls and Defense, and a +2 divine bonus on all Initiative checks.

Minor (Ex): You get a +2 divine bonus on all Perception checks. Perception is always considered a class skill for you.
Major (Ex): The divine bonus to skill checks is increased to +4. You are never surprised (but you can still be flanked normally) and thus will always get to act during the surprise round (but you are still flat-footed until you act). This ability does not automatically cause a surprise round to take place; it only works if other conditions would allow a surprise round.

Minor (Ex): You are warded as if under the effect of a protection from evil spell.
Major (Ex): You, and any allies within 10 feet of you, are warded as if under the effect of a magic circle against evil spell

I'm not sure if this helped or just added to the confusion   :)

I probably won't go the "save or die", since a) we start at level 3 and I don't think there are that many devastating spells at that level, and b) as Sunic seems to hint, it doesn't sound that fun.
Title: Re: Looking for help building a Pathfinder Cleric
Post by: Sunic_Flames on February 20, 2011, 04:56:09 PM
Command spam. And it isn't that fun. But as no other archetypes are supported, you can either spam save or loses and succeed, or do anything else and fail at life. Try playing 3.5 instead, where there's some actual variety.
Title: Re: Looking for help building a Pathfinder Cleric
Post by: X-Codes on February 20, 2011, 06:41:50 PM
Sunic's a douche, and not always right, so take what he says with a grain of salt.  He tends to forget that while SoL's are awesome, you still need to actually walk up to the things and kill them before you win.

Start by dropping Dexterity to 7 for 4 extra points.  With those 19, put Wisdom at 16, Blood at 15, and Constitution at 12, leaving Strength, Intelligence, and Charisma at 10 each.  I, personally, would dump Strength and Charisma as well to boost Blood to 16, Constitution to 14, and Intelligence to 12.  With the Human boost on Blood, that will boost your Wisdom to 18 and Constitution to 16: a 12-point boon for a 10-point investment, plus you get a solid Blood score of 18 with which to use your DM's homebrew materials (which will likely play a very prominent role in this game; something else Sunic is ignoring).

All that said, your DM really out to start you out at something like 19 PB instead of 15 to compensate for the extra score.
Title: Re: Looking for help building a Pathfinder Cleric
Post by: Sunic_Flames on February 20, 2011, 07:43:33 PM
Sunic's a douche, and not always right, so take what he says with a grain of salt.  He tends to forget that while SoL's are awesome, you still need to actually walk up to the things and kill them before you win.

Start by dropping Dexterity to 7 for 4 extra points.  With those 19, put Wisdom at 16, Blood at 15, and Constitution at 12, leaving Strength, Intelligence, and Charisma at 10 each.  I, personally, would dump Strength and Charisma as well to boost Blood to 16, Constitution to 14, and Intelligence to 12.  With the Human boost on Blood, that will boost your Wisdom to 18 and Constitution to 16: a 12-point boon for a 10-point investment, plus you get a solid Blood score of 18 with which to use your DM's homebrew materials (which will likely play a very prominent role in this game; something else Sunic is ignoring).

All that said, your DM really out to start you out at something like 19 PB instead of 15 to compensate for the extra score.

1: Hi Welcome
2: If you so much as think of swording in Pathfailure, James Jacobs personally comes to your house and slaps you around with his small penis.
3: I ignore the random bullshit homebrew because it's an obvious Trap. It in no way compares to the only path to victory in Pathfailure.
Title: Re: Looking for help building a Pathfinder Cleric
Post by: juton on February 20, 2011, 08:56:24 PM
Sunic's a douche, and not always right, so take what he says with a grain of salt.  He tends to forget that while SoL's are awesome, you still need to actually walk up to the things and kill them before you win.

Start by dropping Dexterity to 7 for 4 extra points.  With those 19, put Wisdom at 16, Blood at 15, and Constitution at 12, leaving Strength, Intelligence, and Charisma at 10 each.  I, personally, would dump Strength and Charisma as well to boost Blood to 16, Constitution to 14, and Intelligence to 12.  With the Human boost on Blood, that will boost your Wisdom to 18 and Constitution to 16: a 12-point boon for a 10-point investment, plus you get a solid Blood score of 18 with which to use your DM's homebrew materials (which will likely play a very prominent role in this game; something else Sunic is ignoring).

All that said, your DM really out to start you out at something like 19 PB instead of 15 to compensate for the extra score.

1: Hi Welcome
2: If you so much as think of swording in Pathfailure, James Jacobs personally comes to your house and slaps you around with his small penis.
3: I ignore the random bullshit homebrew because it's an obvious Trap. It in no way compares to the only path to victory in Pathfailure.

Sigh.

Sunic, stabbing shit works fine Pathfinder for the first 6 levels, just like it did in 3.5. Surviving those early levels is easiest with a mix of options, like melee and magic, which is what a Cleric does. You have let your hatred for Pathfinder turn you into a moron.

@Kerberos

Don't mind Sunic. The bloodline rules seem interesting, but I don't think they're going to be as useful as just pointing points into your regular stats. With that and your high HP in mind I'd recommend stats of 16,7,10,10,16,7,13, putting your favoured class bonus into extra HP, Str, Wis, Bloodline are all good choices for your +2 human bonus. The best bloodline off the bat is the one that gives constant protection from evil. Normally sword and board sucks, but if you want to be primarily a caster you can hold a shield with one hand and cast with the other, drawing your sword when you want to fight.

One thing to remember going into this game, people will say that a Cleric is a win button for Dungeons and Dragons, while Clerics are very strong they aren't invincible at lower levels. You'll have to be careful with how you use your spells, some DMs won't let you rest whenever you want, if you can buy a wand of cure light wounds so you don't have to use your spell slots to cast it, this will let you adventure longer. Also remember that D&D is very much a team game so work with your group, if you do that well you'll succeed.
Title: Re: Looking for help building a Pathfinder Cleric
Post by: X-Codes on February 20, 2011, 09:24:15 PM
Sunic, stabbing shit works fine Pathfinder for the first 6 levels, just like it did in 3.5. Surviving those early levels is easiest with a mix of options, like melee and magic, which is what a Cleric does. You have let your hatred for Pathfinder turn you into a moron.
Not to mention that the more homebrew a DM brings to the table, the bigger the role it tends to play in his game.  Completely dumping/ignoring those rules could lead to DM Ire and/or plain missing out on large tracts of gameplay.  Do so at your own peril.
Title: Re: Looking for help building a Pathfinder Cleric
Post by: veekie on February 21, 2011, 03:06:40 AM
Domain wise:
Sun(Light) - Flash to mass debuff your opponents with a chance of blinding. Not a bad way to open a fight, I dare say. Faerie Fire isn't a bad spell either.
War(Tactics) - Helping your allies go first is a winning strategy, always.

Feats, it depends a lot on your strategy of choice, and which stat array.
Title: Re: Looking for help building a Pathfinder Cleric
Post by: Bester on February 21, 2011, 04:19:22 AM
Selective Channeling is an unacceptable feat tax from Pathfinder imho.

Beg your dm to have it be select who is targeted by channel energy per cha bonus, not who is "not" targeted by channel energy.  Here's why:

Fighter is surrounded by 8 goblins and it's your turn and Fighter is hurt.  You have to either move and only heal 3+ goblins along with fighter, or no goblins if you have cha 16.  So you moved away, which stinks but was required because you didn't want to heal all the monsters.  If you selected who was healed instead, you would only need cha 12 and select "me and fighter."

This way all your living foes won't get healing from you for free if you have 3 allies and a cha 16.

Or get a good dm who just think it's dick to introduce MAD to use a class feature that heals (still lame in pathfinder).  This is especially true if he isn't running an undead heavy game.

Yeah, I play a Pathfinder cleric who heals and buffs in my monthly game.  I can tell you that community domain + barbarian pc is a good combo.
Title: Re: Looking for help building a Pathfinder Cleric
Post by: veekie on February 21, 2011, 04:59:08 AM
My lot uses Channel to heal outside of combat, mostly, so I never saw the need for combat healing except in emergencies, at which point the party doesn't care.
Title: Re: Looking for help building a Pathfinder Cleric
Post by: Bester on February 21, 2011, 05:05:14 AM
My lot uses Channel to heal outside of combat, mostly, so I never saw the need for combat healing except in emergencies, at which point the party doesn't care.

You play with experienced players who don't run ahead i see.

I play with a barbarian who insists on killing everything he sees.

Of course we are still level 1 in that game, so.  Yeah, healing is good at low levels.
Title: Re: Looking for help building a Pathfinder Cleric
Post by: Sunic_Flames on February 21, 2011, 10:12:13 AM
Sunic's a douche, and not always right, so take what he says with a grain of salt.  He tends to forget that while SoL's are awesome, you still need to actually walk up to the things and kill them before you win.

Start by dropping Dexterity to 7 for 4 extra points.  With those 19, put Wisdom at 16, Blood at 15, and Constitution at 12, leaving Strength, Intelligence, and Charisma at 10 each.  I, personally, would dump Strength and Charisma as well to boost Blood to 16, Constitution to 14, and Intelligence to 12.  With the Human boost on Blood, that will boost your Wisdom to 18 and Constitution to 16: a 12-point boon for a 10-point investment, plus you get a solid Blood score of 18 with which to use your DM's homebrew materials (which will likely play a very prominent role in this game; something else Sunic is ignoring).

All that said, your DM really out to start you out at something like 19 PB instead of 15 to compensate for the extra score.

1: Hi Welcome
2: If you so much as think of swording in Pathfailure, James Jacobs personally comes to your house and slaps you around with his small penis.
3: I ignore the random bullshit homebrew because it's an obvious Trap. It in no way compares to the only path to victory in Pathfailure.

Sigh.

Sunic, stabbing shit works fine Pathfinder for the first 6 levels, just like it did in 3.5. Surviving those early levels is easiest with a mix of options, like melee and magic, which is what a Cleric does. You have let your hatred for Pathfinder turn you into a moron.

Nope, enemies still have high HP, even at low levels, and HP is still CEF based, except you do less DPS, and enemies have better defenses vs beatsticks, so you fail more. Meanwhile save DCs are jacked up, and enemy saves are reduced.
Title: Re: Looking for help building a Pathfinder Cleric
Post by: veekie on February 21, 2011, 10:21:26 AM
Given that its level three, hes got a fair chance of ending it all for any monster with any 2 players hitting one critter. The reverse is also true of course.
Title: Re: Looking for help building a Pathfinder Cleric
Post by: Sunic_Flames on February 21, 2011, 10:58:34 AM
Level 3 = 27 HP. So even if that was true, and remember this is Pathfailure, aka the no beatsticks, save or lose spam only, FINAL DESTINATION edition then you hit level 4, and no one can deal with encounters, so everyone gets slaughtered. Also, anything that depends on two people both getting their actions is inherently far less reliable than one.
Title: Re: Looking for help building a Pathfinder Cleric
Post by: Aharon on February 21, 2011, 11:11:13 AM
Are you absolutely positive you want to play a cleric of a god who doesn't grant a wisdom bonus? Are the house rules written cooperatively, or is the DM the only one making them? If you are allowed/able to weigh in, try and get the ability to be +2 to any stat for any god. Fluff-wise: You uphold the ideals of your god, how you do so is your choice and not his.

(Assuming for the moment that X-Codes is right and the Homebrew will play a major role)
Title: Re: Looking for help building a Pathfinder Cleric
Post by: juton on February 21, 2011, 03:07:59 PM
Sunic:

Why? Why do you have to come into Pathfinder threads and spout shit like a level 3 Fighter doesn't work in Pathfinder. You don't convince anyone who doesn't hate Pathfinder already. The people asking for help for a Pathfinder game, they still go off and play Pathfinder, and even though you know it's BadWrongFun they still have fun.

I don't know what Jason Buhlman did to you, frankly I don't care. I don't care if none of the Paizils wouldn't listen to you during the playtest. If you do this because you are bored, get a new hobby. Let people play the game they want without you spewing bullshit.
Title: Re: Looking for help building a Pathfinder Cleric
Post by: Sunic_Flames on February 21, 2011, 09:04:11 PM
Sunic:

Why? Why do you have to come into Pathfinder threads and spout shit like a level 3 Fighter doesn't work in Pathfinder. You don't convince anyone who doesn't hate Pathfinder already. The people asking for help for a Pathfinder game, they still go off and play Pathfinder, and even though you know it's BadWrongFun they still have fun.

I don't know what Jason Buhlman did to you, frankly I don't care. I don't care if none of the Paizils wouldn't listen to you during the playtest. If you do this because you are bored, get a new hobby. Let people play the game they want without you spewing bullshit.


Hi Welcome

1: It is my duty as Crusader of Logic to defend people from bad games. That includes recommending they play a real game.
2: See above, but for Lies, and the duty is to Dispel them.
3: The Paizils could have gotten this much positive publicity if they weren't total mouth breathing fuckwits. But this isn't about that, this is about how Pathfailure is a terrible game, and if you must play it (which I was initially assuming, by the way) max DC save or lose is the only way to go. The current way he was going was full of misery and fail, so I warned him off that road.

Hi Welcome
Title: Re: Looking for help building a Pathfinder Cleric
Post by: X-Codes on February 21, 2011, 09:11:18 PM
1: It is my duty as Crusader of Logic to defend people from bad games. That includes recommending they play a real game.
So, because of your self-appointed BS title you are not just entitled, but obligated to be a complete douchebag to everyone who disagrees with you?
Title: Re: Looking for help building a Pathfinder Cleric
Post by: juton on February 21, 2011, 09:27:01 PM
1: It is my duty as Crusader of Logic to defend people from bad games. That includes recommending they play a real game.

So why don't you? 3.5 breaks down in horrific ways even before you hit the mid-levels, so why don't you recommend a game that doesn't punish you for being anything other than a full-caster?
Title: Re: Looking for help building a Pathfinder Cleric
Post by: veekie on February 22, 2011, 04:22:56 AM
1: It is my duty as Crusader of Logic to defend people from bad games. That includes recommending they play a real game.

So why don't you? 3.5 breaks down in horrific ways even before you hit the mid-levels, so why don't you recommend a game that doesn't punish you for being anything other than a full-caster?

4E. :P
Title: Re: Looking for help building a Pathfinder Cleric
Post by: X-Codes on February 22, 2011, 04:55:44 AM
1: It is my duty as Crusader of Logic to defend people from bad games. That includes recommending they play a real game.

So why don't you? 3.5 breaks down in horrific ways even before you hit the mid-levels, so why don't you recommend a game that doesn't punish you for being anything other than a full-caster?

4E. :P
May as well be flame-baiting there.  :rollseyes
Title: Re: Looking for help building a Pathfinder Cleric
Post by: veekie on February 22, 2011, 05:29:37 AM
Hey, it punishes you just for existing, equality!
Title: Re: Looking for help building a Pathfinder Cleric
Post by: Gods_Trick on February 22, 2011, 05:30:25 AM

1: It is my duty as Crusader of Logic to defend people from bad games. That includes recommending they play a real game.

So why don't you? 3.5 breaks down in horrific ways even before you hit the mid-levels, so why don't you recommend a game that doesn't punish you for being anything other than a full-caster?

4E. :P

And so it begins  :rollseyes Bring on the flames.

Sunics kinda bipolar. Whenever hes developing something useful, its all good, smart relevant guy. In self appointed Crusader mode, hes the kid that forces his way into your party and repeatedly tells everyone what a bad party it is.
Title: Re: Looking for help building a Pathfinder Cleric
Post by: Sunic_Flames on February 22, 2011, 09:12:39 AM
1: It is my duty as Crusader of Logic to defend people from bad games. That includes recommending they play a real game.
So, because of your self-appointed BS title you are not just entitled, but obligated to be a complete douchebag to everyone who disagrees with you?

Hi Welcome

1: It is my duty as Crusader of Logic to defend people from bad games. That includes recommending they play a real game.

So why don't you? 3.5 breaks down in horrific ways even before you hit the mid-levels, so why don't you recommend a game that doesn't punish you for being anything other than a full-caster?


Hi Welcome

Pathfailure breaks down in all the same ways, and many more besides. 3.5 is also one of the least broken games out there. Which says a lot about the quality of the competition, but whatever.

1: It is my duty as Crusader of Logic to defend people from bad games. That includes recommending they play a real game.

So why don't you? 3.5 breaks down in horrific ways even before you hit the mid-levels, so why don't you recommend a game that doesn't punish you for being anything other than a full-caster?

4E. :P

Hi Welcome

In 4.Fail, everyone is a Monk. The only reason this doesn't make you die at character creation is because everyone includes the enemy.


1: It is my duty as Crusader of Logic to defend people from bad games. That includes recommending they play a real game.

So why don't you? 3.5 breaks down in horrific ways even before you hit the mid-levels, so why don't you recommend a game that doesn't punish you for being anything other than a full-caster?

4E. :P

And so it begins  :rollseyes Bring on the flames.

Sunics kinda bipolar. Whenever hes developing something useful, its all good, smart relevant guy. In self appointed Crusader mode, hes the kid that forces his way into your party and repeatedly tells everyone what a bad party it is.

Hi Welcome

It's not being bipolar when you're harsh on fuckwits, and agreeable with intelligent people. Those are called reasonable reactions. Just as otherwise nice people tend to react poorly to drunks stomping around in their yard.
Title: Re: Looking for help building a Pathfinder Cleric
Post by: juton on February 22, 2011, 10:53:50 AM
Hi Welcome

Pathfailure breaks down in all the same ways, and many more besides. 3.5 is also one of the least broken games out there. Which says a lot about the quality of the competition, but whatever.

Nothing I could write can make you look as foolish as you do now.
Title: Re: Looking for help building a Pathfinder Cleric
Post by: Sunic_Flames on February 22, 2011, 12:50:27 PM
Hi Welcome

Pathfailure breaks down in all the same ways, and many more besides. 3.5 is also one of the least broken games out there. Which says a lot about the quality of the competition, but whatever.

Nothing I could write can make you look as foolish as you do now.

Hi Welcome

Let's review the competition:

1st edition, 2nd edition: Flat out doesn't cover all manner of things, breaks randomly, and in laughable ways.

Pathfailure: Already covered.

4.Fail: Breaks both in and out of combat, breaks if you ride a donkey, breaks if you play it, breaks if you don't play it, breaks if you look at it funny...

Shadowrun: Breaks if you do anything other than be Murdering Hobos at the deploy of an anonymous employer.

White Wolf: Depending on the game, either complete and epic fail at everything it's supposed to do, or just complete and epic fail without conditionals.

FATAL: Exists.

Now, you were saying?
Title: Re: Looking for help building a Pathfinder Cleric
Post by: juton on February 22, 2011, 01:44:10 PM
Hi Welcome

Let's review the competition:

1st edition, 2nd edition: Flat out doesn't cover all manner of things, breaks randomly, and in laughable ways.

Pathfailure: Already covered.

4.Fail: Breaks both in and out of combat, breaks if you ride a donkey, breaks if you play it, breaks if you don't play it, breaks if you look at it funny...

Shadowrun: Breaks if you do anything other than be Murdering Hobos at the deploy of an anonymous employer.

White Wolf: Depending on the game, either complete and epic fail at everything it's supposed to do, or just complete and epic fail without conditionals.

FATAL: Exists.

Now, you were saying?

A bit disingenuous, aren't you? Doesn't 3.5 break if anyone plays a caster?

Spirit of the Century and Savage Worlds are both better play experiences than 3.5. Mutants and Masterminds can easily be adapted to fantasy, even though the system is easy to abuse, the abuses are moderate and any archetype can get in on the action. Those are just the ones I've played in the last year, I can see why you'd think 3.5 is golden if all you've played is shit like nWoD.
Title: Re: Looking for help building a Pathfinder Cleric
Post by: Gods_Trick on February 22, 2011, 02:15:52 PM

I've found Fading Suns and Serenity pleasant. Dogs in the Vineyard is excellent, but niche.
Title: Re: Looking for help building a Pathfinder Cleric
Post by: Absolon on February 22, 2011, 02:17:06 PM
I was under the impression that Star Wars Saga Edition was a bit more balanced overall vs 3.5...but isn't this all irrelevant to helping this fellow with his cleric?  I made a thread like this one about a month ago and I had the good fortune to not have flaming/trolling go on in it.  So we have disagreements about what is a good system to play, so what?  People gave their thoughts on what they thought was a good way to do things within the parameters given.

My opinion on the matter is that I think you've got melee pretty much covered in your group with the summoner and the other cleric (I'm not so clear on the level of optimization that your group or GM uses so I'm just guessing here).  If you could pick up on buffs, BFC and general spell stuff that you'd picture a wizard doing, I think you'd do just fine.  If you see yourself smiting infidels with divine magic along with the BFC and buffing, consider taking Good and(or?) Law as your domains so as to get the Archon subdomain.  Having your own Aura of Menace that you can switch on that gives enemies a -2 to all saves with no save allowed for that effect is quite nice when you want that Hold Monster or Destruction to do the job.
Title: Re: Looking for help building a Pathfinder Cleric
Post by: Sunic_Flames on February 22, 2011, 03:42:34 PM
Hi Welcome

Let's review the competition:

1st edition, 2nd edition: Flat out doesn't cover all manner of things, breaks randomly, and in laughable ways.

Pathfailure: Already covered.

4.Fail: Breaks both in and out of combat, breaks if you ride a donkey, breaks if you play it, breaks if you don't play it, breaks if you look at it funny...

Shadowrun: Breaks if you do anything other than be Murdering Hobos at the deploy of an anonymous employer.

White Wolf: Depending on the game, either complete and epic fail at everything it's supposed to do, or just complete and epic fail without conditionals.

FATAL: Exists.

Now, you were saying?

A bit disingenuous, aren't you? Doesn't 3.5 break if anyone plays a caster?

Spirit of the Century and Savage Worlds are both better play experiences than 3.5. Mutants and Masterminds can easily be adapted to fantasy, even though the system is easy to abuse, the abuses are moderate and any archetype can get in on the action. Those are just the ones I've played in the last year, I can see why you'd think 3.5 is golden if all you've played is shit like nWoD.

Well, no. The game assumes casters, and spells are actually balanced with themselves and each other. And since most enemies cast spells, it works out. It does break if no one plays a caster, but that's still a less broken game than the others I mention. M&M literally has Pun-Pun in the core books - it exists as a random DM fuck you, that the DM is encouraged to use. Also, due to the wide variance involved in that system you totally end up with people randomly dropping in one hit from weak attacks, or barely being scratched by good ones, so yes, it's a fail system. The others you mention have WoD style mechanics where being better at something can actually make you WORSE at it (otherwise known as Critical Fumble Fail) so they fail too.

Lastly, saga also suffers from LOL RANDOM DEATH and MASTER CLASS. Just in different ways.
Title: Re: Looking for help building a Pathfinder Cleric
Post by: veekie on February 22, 2011, 09:30:30 PM
The Fate system?
Title: Re: Looking for help building a Pathfinder Cleric
Post by: Gods_Trick on February 23, 2011, 05:02:30 AM

Meh, poor OPs getting his thread trolled. Any more stuff for his PF cleric?
Title: Re: Looking for help building a Pathfinder Cleric
Post by: veekie on February 23, 2011, 05:37:56 AM
Could use some feedback as to preferred combat style, and maybe we can see about picking feats out.