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The Thinktank => Min/Max It! => Topic started by: Gavinfoxx on February 07, 2011, 02:37:22 AM

Title: Punching 80x:Please help me figure out a FistBear BearFist's derived statistics?
Post by: Gavinfoxx on February 07, 2011, 02:37:22 AM
Hi there, I am trying to deconstruct the Fistbear Bearfist as seen here:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9111595&postcount=107

And make a few changes, to help a friend.

Basically, the main thing is:

1.) The DM said no magic items
2.) He needs thematically simple, does very few things, no spellcasting characters
3.) The game starts at level 18

So, I'm trying to figure out the derived statistics of a basic Fistbear Bearfist type character, with NO GEAR AT ALL, set at level 18.

I'm thinking of changing the Ranger style to Strong-arm, maybe, and getting multiattack or Improved Grapple, which might let the build use a different barbarian style than bear totem, to maybe pick up Spirit Lion and a different non spirit totem or something.

Anyway. The build as it exists in that post... I'm trying to figure out the main attack sequence, both to hit and damage, with NO magical items, as well whatever other derived stats...

Lets assume, for case of argument, that base strength is 24.

On a full attack, using both snap kick and two weapon fighting, and a claw/claw/bite as secondary... here is what I figured the full attack routine would look like:

21 main hand unarmed strike (+18 bab - 2 2wf + 7 str -2 snap kick penalty) + 21 off hand unarmed, + 21 snap kick, + 16 (that 21 -5) main hand unarmed iterative + 11 (that 21-10) main hand unarmed iterative,  +6 (that 21-15) main hand unarmed iterative, + 18 claw (+18 bab +7 str -5 secondary - 2 snap kick), +18 claw, +18 bite.

I have nooo ideaaaa what the damage size of these attacks are, unfortunately. Can someone help me with that?  The unarmed strike is lethal damage, right?

Also, if I *do* use strong-arm ranger, remove 2wf, add spirit lion totem, and use the feat freed up to get the improved grapple prerequisite, that lets the normal totem be something other than bear, like wolf totem for improved trip, netting us pounce & improved trip by paying extra movement speed and two weapon fighting...
Title: Re: Punching 80x:Please help me figure out a FistBear BearFist's derived statistics?
Post by: ninjarabbit on February 08, 2011, 12:08:18 PM
I might drop the bear lord levels and take an extra 4 levels of bear warrior, that way you're a brown bear instead of a black bear and get the extra size, str, and con bonuses. That'll leave you 2 extra levels whick I recommend psy-warrior with expansion if you're allowed to do that or more FoF levels,

Alternatively I recommend a half-orc paragon3/monk2/stoneblessed3(dwarf)/bearwarrior5/deepwarden2/warshaper3
Title: Re: Punching 80x:Please help me figure out a FistBear BearFist's derived statistics?
Post by: Ed-Zero on February 09, 2011, 05:09:54 AM
Of course.. I'm partial to this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140757):

Anthropomorphic Bear Werebear Bear Totem Barbarian/ Bear Warrior/ Druid (taking a Bear companion)/ Bearlord, taking the Wild Cohort feat to get a bear companion. You're a werebear bear who owns a bear, rides a bear, commands bears, worships bears, and can get so angry he turns into a bear.

Title: Re: Punching 80x:Please help me figure out a FistBear BearFist's derived statistics?
Post by: Catty Nebulart on February 09, 2011, 06:21:11 AM
That sounds like it would be a bear to play.
Title: Re: Punching 80x:Please help me figure out a FistBear BearFist's derived statistics?
Post by: skydragonknight on February 09, 2011, 09:55:02 AM
That sounds like it would be a bear to play.

Just bear with it.
Title: Re: Punching 80x:Please help me figure out a FistBear BearFist's derived statistics?
Post by: Mixster on February 09, 2011, 10:52:26 AM
That sounds like it would be a bear to play.

Just bear with it.
These puns are unBEARable
Title: Re: Punching 80x:Please help me figure out a FistBear BearFist's derived statistics?
Post by: Gavinfoxx on February 11, 2011, 07:41:21 PM
Okay Guys, can someone help me with the attack routine? Please?
Title: Re: Punching 80x:Please help me figure out a FistBear BearFist's derived statistics?
Post by: skydragonknight on February 11, 2011, 10:14:51 PM
Really, this is what a scratch sheet of paper (or Notepad) is for.

Effects: Reckless Raging, Feral Trance, TWF, Snap Kick, Morphic body

+14 str +6 dex +10 con

Use this and BAB to determine your basic to-hit (depending on starting strength).


Attacks:
4 Unarmed 1d10+Str+2 (black bear is medium size)
1 Unarmed from TWF (all -2)
1 unarmed from snap kick (all -2)
Bite at base to-hit 1d6 + 1/2 str (same damage from both bear and feral trance, but feral trance's is at full bonus and not -5)
Claws at -5 1d4 + 1/2 str

Routine:
Basic to-hit will be called "X". Str + BAB + anything from items/spells.

X-4, X-4, X-4, X-9, X-14, X-19 Unarmed Strike 1d10 + Str + 2
X-4 Bite 1d6 + 1/2 Str
X-9, X-9 Claw 1d4 + 1/2 Str

As you can see, damage is very bad since there's no size increases in the build.
Title: Re: Punching 80x:Please help me figure out a FistBear BearFist's derived statistics?
Post by: BruceLeeroy on February 12, 2011, 12:01:26 AM
Easy enough with a level of psywar. Toss in Imp. Natural Attack and Superior Unarmed strike if you have the room. That's +4 size increases and if the base is 1d10, ends up with 6d8 ( i think. too lazy to check), which is far from shabby, even at 18th level. If optimizing purely for unarmed damage it can easily hit 12d8 or in TO situations, 32d8 or higher (by TO i mean sacrificing the majority of the character for unarmed damage).

I'd pay a lot more attention to hitting than damage though, once you get it to roughly 6d8.
Title: Re: Punching 80x:Please help me figure out a FistBear BearFist's derived statistics?
Post by: skydragonknight on February 12, 2011, 01:24:33 AM
Totemist dip would help a lot. Open your shoulders chakra with a feat and bind totem avatar there for a size increase for all natural attacks.

The no magic items part hurts a lot. Add the "no spellcasters" on top and its hard to get more than, say, 4d8 unarmed damage. Meldshapers shouldn't count as spellcasters though, since their melds are basically just miniature buffs like ToB stances. And totemist is thematic "gaining the power of animals and magical beasts".
Title: Re: Punching 80x:Please help me figure out a FistBear BearFist's derived statistics?
Post by: Gavinfoxx on February 14, 2011, 01:21:09 AM
Uh, how does the build get 2d6 unarmed strike damage in the link?
Title: Re: Punching 80x:Please help me figure out a FistBear BearFist's derived statistics?
Post by: skydragonknight on February 14, 2011, 09:43:10 AM
It doesn't (it gets 1d10) , nor did anyone suggest it did.
Title: Re: Punching 80x:Please help me figure out a FistBear BearFist's derived statistics?
Post by: Gavinfoxx on February 14, 2011, 01:40:52 PM
It doesn't (it gets 1d10) , nor did anyone suggest it did.

Yea they did!

See here:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9111595&postcount=107

Where it says "Final Strength and Con score when throwing it down as a bear and going all out:"
Title: Re: Punching 80x:Please help me figure out a FistBear BearFist's derived statistics?
Post by: skydragonknight on February 14, 2011, 09:25:38 PM
That's got to be a typo. I think he's using the Morphic Weapons Warshaper ability, in which case it would actually be 2d8, not 2d6. However, activating that ability is a Move action....so you can't always count on getting the chance to use it, since you can only use it (and all Warshaper class features) in an alternate form.
Title: Re: Punching 80x:Please help me figure out a FistBear BearFist's derived statistics?
Post by: Gavinfoxx on February 14, 2011, 09:58:11 PM
Well, what, if anything, might get the unarmed strike damage above 1d10 when Nova-ing?
Title: Re: Punching 80x:Please help me figure out a FistBear BearFist's derived statistics?
Post by: Lycanthromancer on February 14, 2011, 09:59:46 PM
Well, what, if anything, might get the unarmed strike damage above 1d10 when Nova-ing?
Be a half-giant? Or maybe a half-minotaur.

A half-minotaur werebear would be nifty.
Title: Re: Punching 80x:Please help me figure out a FistBear BearFist's derived statistics?
Post by: skydragonknight on February 14, 2011, 10:14:30 PM
Ah, now the optimization fires are burning...not just using someone else's work, but modifying it to your own purpose!  :evillaugh

Change whichever feats you like least to Superior Unarmed Strike and Improved Natural Attack.

Superior unarmed strike sets your unarmed damage to 2d6, which FoF moves to the next step on the monk table (2d8). Improved Natural Attack boosts that to 3d8. +8 avg damage from 2 feats.

Alternatively, a Totemist dip and the Open Lesser Chakra (Shoulders) feat (to bind totem avatar to shoulders) would improve all your natural attacks by one damage step.
Title: Re: Punching 80x:Please help me figure out a FistBear BearFist's derived statistics?
Post by: Gavinfoxx on February 14, 2011, 10:23:34 PM
Excuse me, I meant to say, what existing rules in that build, with potentially fairly lax interpretations of rules or whatever, MIGHT have something to do with getting the unarmed strike over 1d10 for that exact character when nova-ing, or is it simply a typo?
Title: Re: Punching 80x:Please help me figure out a FistBear BearFist's derived statistics?
Post by: skydragonknight on February 14, 2011, 10:46:15 PM
It's a typo. My guess? He used a common misconception that a size increase for unarmed damage is just taking the next step in the monk table...but size increases for natural weapons have their own rules (and table) in the monster manual.
Title: Re: Punching 80x:Please help me figure out a FistBear BearFist's derived statistics?
Post by: stranglebat on February 15, 2011, 03:29:42 AM
Maybe he had a monks belt and counted it like this

5th level monk 1d8 (from monks belt)
fist of the forest 1 goes to 1d10
fist of the forest 3 goes to 2d6

Seems the only way they came to that conclusion
Title: Re: Punching 80x:Please help me figure out a FistBear BearFist's derived statistics?
Post by: Andras on February 15, 2011, 07:47:02 AM
If you have Frostburn, you might check out the Primeval.

for ex
Neanderthal Barbarian8/ Primeval10/ Warshaper 2

I like DireApe (Rend, yay!) as the Primeval form, but if you want a bear shape then ask if you can use the Polar Bear since the Dire Bear has too many HD (could be a 8hd Dire Bear).

Endurance, Self Sufficient and (improved) Toughness are required, but that leads into Steadfast Determination, leaving 3 open feats. Animal Devotion (CChamp) gets you a +8 str boost, or other maybe useful animal power (Flight!), and without magic it might be quite handy, so you could take it 3 times.

Assuming a starting str of 18 +2 race, + 4 levels, +3 regression, +4 rage*, + 8 Sacred*, +16[22] Primeval Form** (Polar Bear) [+6 Feral Power] nets a 61str (+25) @ 18th w/o magic (62 @ 20th).

Con gets up to (assuming) 16+2 race + 4 rage* , +3 regression, + 8[12] Primeval form** [+4 Feral Power] for a 37 (+13).

* 3/day each
** 4/day

Attacks (w/o magic)
+43 Claw d8+25
+43 Claw d8+25
+38 Bite 2d6+12
Improved Grapple +51
+13 Natural Armor in bear form
Primeval 10 grants [shapechanger], Dr10/magic, and you count as a Magical Beast instead of a Humanoid

Warshaper 1 @ 19th gets you Improved Natural attack
Warshaper 2 @ 20th gets you an extra +4 str/con when in Primeval form, and the 5th ability improvement point.


Other Forms:

Dire Lion loses 2 str and 2 con, but picks up the extra rake attacks and pounce

I like the Dire Ape since it retains a (vaguely) humanoid form, and if you hit with both claw attacks you rend for double claw damage extra, dealing up to 4x claw damage total.


Title: Re: Punching 80x:Please help me figure out a FistBear BearFist's derived statistics?
Post by: Rejakor on February 16, 2011, 01:22:06 AM
No spellcasters?

No magic items?

Seriously, half minotaur anthropomorphic bear or anthropomorphic bear werebear are actually starting to look like decent choices.

That said, half minotaur feral psywar(for expansion)/barbarian/bear warrior seems like a decent way to go.


Oh yeah, and VoP.