Brilliant Gameologists Forum
The Thinktank => Min/Max It! => : NeoRon February 04, 2011, 05:38:39 AM
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Hi everyone,
As a lurker, I've read many of the awesome things that can be done in the rules. Ubercharging! Tier 1, God Wizards, and all that.
But then I realized that the GM is the one who controls the game! :rollseyes They have the power to do the same things to you that you do to their NPCs. So if you can optimize, they can use the same tricks against you later.
I've been pondering this for a while. How do you fight back against certain things? If they are too good for the DM to beat, how will you beat it if you face it yourself? It's all well and good to praise a build. But what if the DM uses it against you? Does that mean you should you limit yourself to tricks you can beat?
So let's say someone saw the Fleshraker Dinosaur in Monster Manual III and decided to take one as an animal companion. It is allowed by the DM.
But then in a later game, the same DM decides to throw fleshrakers back at you. How do you fight back, supposing you are still low level?
What about the Shifter Druid (or group of them) who can Greenbound summon as a standard action?
Abrupt Jaunt lets you survive attacks by dodging them as they come. But how do you beat someone with Abrupt Jaunt, 1v1, if you're a low level melee-type?
I know there are ways to beat these sorts of threats, but they require a lot of specific effort, for the most part. In some cases, the best way to win, is to be the thing yourself.
I guess this is the main thing I'm worried about. What happens when you bring too much optimization into a game, and it gets thrown back at you?
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"get used to Disapointment" ..... as long as they are of the appropriate CR level, you should have little difficulty with most encounters. remember, sometimes you need to RUN AWAY(sometimes even Surrender if needed) .... you simply will not win every encounter. you need to be modest and recognize your weaknesses
:D
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Depends. Either your DM wants to kill your character, in which case he wn't have problem doing that, optimizing or not, or it will be a little harder. Most of the ideas we usually give in this forum assume at least certain degree of optimization.
For example, if your DM does this:
Abrupt Jaunt lets you survive attacks by dodging them as they come. But how do you beat someone with Abrupt Jaunt, 1v1, if you're a low level melee-type?
He wants to kill you and you will die. ¿Why the hell are you fighting 1vs1 as a fighter against a caster with abrupt jaunt? The only reason to optimize the tools he is using to kill you is to make a fool of you.
However, if he does this:
So let's say someone saw the Fleshraker Dinosaur in Monster Manual III and decided to take one as an animal companion. It is allowed by the DM.
But then in a later game, the same DM decides to throw fleshrakers back at you. How do you fight back, supposing you are still low level?
What about the Shifter Druid (or group of them) who can Greenbound summon as a standard action?
He is making it difficult for you, but you can still fight back. You still can fight back, you are part of a group and you can have as many tricks as him, or even more.
Finally, and as a corollary of the first case, as carnivore said, as long as the CR is relatively appropiate, the game should be playable. Look at the rules for assigning CRs to NPCs, starting with the WBL. If a DM creates a NPC with the same level of power than a PC, his CR will be higher than his level.
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I've been pondering this for a while. How do you fight back against certain things? If they are too good for the DM to beat, how will you beat it if you face it yourself? It's all well and good to praise a build. But what if the DM uses it against you? Does that mean you should you limit yourself to tricks you can beat?
A part of DnD is to have fun. If the DM is trying to "beat" the players, then he's all ready "lost", so to speak. But there are weaknesses in almost every build.
So let's say someone saw the Fleshraker Dinosaur in Monster Manual III and decided to take one as an animal companion. It is allowed by the DM.
But then in a later game, the same DM decides to throw fleshrakers back at you. How do you fight back, supposing you are still low level?
For this, Grease. And when the DM throws Grease at you, a Fly speed. Spellcasters have so many counters that it is impossible to avoid their answers (especially ones like Clerics and Druids, who have no limits on their spell preparation).
What about the Shifter Druid (or group of them) who can Greenbound summon as a standard action?
Readying a ranged attack to shoot the guy when he tries to summon something (an optimized archer would ruin the spell).
Abrupt Jaunt lets you survive attacks by dodging them as they come. But how do you beat someone with Abrupt Jaunt, 1v1, if you're a low level melee-type?
This, FYI, is usually why you leave a caster to the other casters. If the entire party is a bunch of melee-happy nuts, Abrupt Jaunt will ruin them (unless they have the handful of maneuvers that grant movement, like Quicksilver Motion).
I know there are ways to beat these sorts of threats, but they require a lot of specific effort, for the most part. In some cases, the best way to win, is to be the thing yourself.
I guess this is the main thing I'm worried about. What happens when you bring too much optimization into a game, and it gets thrown back at you?
Retreat, examine these tactics, formulate a counterstrike, and implement it along side three other backup strategies. He who is prepared is invincible.
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Ah, yes. Ye olde optimization cold war/slippery slope.
Just remember: you as PCs are limited in what you can do. The DM is not.
Do you really want to get into an escalation of power creep with a guy who has infinite resources? Or would you rather play nice and stop with the d2 crusader bullshit?
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You have some points. But we all know the CR system has a lot of issues.
Can't the DM justify everything because their players did/do it too?
Do you really want to get into an escalation of power creep with a guy who has infinite resources? Or would you rather play nice and stop with the d2 crusader bullshit?
Oh yeah! But I think since you never stop rolling the dice, you'll have to be smacked down in real-life. :P
But let's take it a different way then. What if this is player vs player now? At least it isn't a DM war against the players. And players can still have fun like this.
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optimize diplomacy. PCs are immune to it.
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optimize diplomacy. PCs are immune to it.
They're not immune to Calm Emotions.
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Ah, yes. Ye olde optimization cold war/slippery slope.
Just remember: you as PCs are limited in what you can do. The DM is not.
Do you really want to get into an escalation of power creep with a guy who has infinite resources? Or would you rather play nice and stop with the d2 crusader bullshit?
Ok, maybe I'm reading it wrong, but why should optimizing mean you want to play naughty? Yes, some people just do it for the power trip it supposes, but many people do not do so. I myself optimize both as a DM and as a player, and I haven't had any kind of problem with either my DM or my players.
I mean, if your DM optimizes, either he is out there for blood, in which case you are screwed optimized or not, or he just wants to make it a challenge.
But let's take it a different way then. What if this is player vs player now? At least it isn't a DM war against the players. And players can still have fun like this.
Then I suggest you some other game. D&D is not balanced for PVP. Well, D&D is not balanced in general, but even less for PVP. That said, many people play D&D Arenas. If you are playing an Arena, the basic clauses of the game change a lot, so much of the optimizing we do doesn't work, given, of course, a certain set of rules to avoid Pun-Pun and the like.
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:o I see. That makes a lot of sense. Thank you!
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Finally, and as a corollary of the first case, as carnivore said, as long as the CR is relatively appropiate, the game should be playable. Look at the rules for assigning CRs to NPCs, starting with the WBL. If a DM creates a NPC with the same level of power than a PC, his CR will be higher than his level.
That's just as naive as saying that every character of level X will have the same power. NPC creating rules allow for all kind of nasty abuse that could allow a DM to curbstomp any PC while being "CR-apropriate".
The first of all would be lots of HD+nonassociated levels. Stone giant for example. With 14 HD at CR 8, you can give it 14 levels of caster, ending up with a CR 15 ecounter wich casts as a lv 14 caster, but has 28 HD (so qualifying for epic stuff) and WBL of an 32th level NPC, as he uses his ECL (racial HD+class levels+LA) for determining his gear, not his CR. That's more than 570K gp, as the epic NPC WBL table only goes to 30th level, compared to the standard 150K of a 14th level PC. Good luck with that.
Plus the NPC only needs to win one fight, so he can go crazy in consumable items. Actually the DMG itself sugests that, so the party doesn't get too rich when killing NPCs, wich have more money than normal.
Then there's monsters that plainly cheat. Psionic mindflayer manifests as a psion of one level higher than his CR. Cloaker Lord casts as a wizard of 2 levels higher than his CR, while ignoring all non-vocal components of spells. Adamantine horror it's the adamantine horror with at-will disjuction.
So no, do no tempt the DM into an optimization race. NPC creating rules are much more prone to abuse than PC creating rules, even while staying CR-apropriate.
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Truth
Yeah, forget those lines of mine. I'm having kind of a bad day and didn't though them thoroughly.
Anyway, I've said this before, if your DM wants to kill you, he will. The kind of things you have pointed are the kind of things the DM will do to kill you. It's like pitching the players against Pun-Pun, just because you can (and you can create Pun-Pun with far less convoluted rules, BTW).
But I myself usually optimize as a DM, within reason, of course. Most of the time, when they die, it happens because they didn't pay attention to the game, instead going against the dragon without preparing at all.
So, a DM optimizing the encounters, as long as he knows what he is doing, is fine. And for the players, most of the time, the idea is, as S_T said, know when to retreat and go back to the planning table.
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Anyway, I've said this before, if your DM wants to kill you, he will. The kind of things you have pointed are the kind of things the DM will do to kill you. It's like pitching the players against Pun-Pun, just because you can (and you can create Pun-Pun with far less convoluted rules, BTW).
Pun-Pun is doable by players, so chances are that you banned it. Super Stone giant however is only achievable by NPCs.
And yes, they can kill you, but they can also be used for creating that giant king NPC that you don't want the PCs to just be able to backstab him for the lulz and take his kingdom in a single turn, while keeping him tecnically CR-apropriate.
But I myself usually optimize as a DM, within reason, of course. Most of the time, when they die, it happens because they didn't pay attention to the game, instead going against the dragon without preparing at all.
So, a DM optimizing the encounters, as long as he knows what he is doing, is fine. And for the players, most of the time, the idea is, as S_T said, know when to retreat and go back to the planning table.
I agree with most of that, but there's such thing as too much planning. If the players are forced to retreat, and then spend a month preparing their vengeance, well, I'm sorry, but the monster wasn't idle either all that time and will have some new tricks up his sleeve.
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Ignoring absurd things like Pun-Pun and infinite loops, it's not hard to deal with the same tricks thrown back at you. PCs have more resources than NPCs, they can counter more things.
For example:
Abrupt Jaunt: Very good, but only works once a round as you only have one Immediate action a round. When used by a PC, it tends to work better because there are fewer enemies. A party can just focus fire on the caster (they'd do that anyways).
Fleshraker: A strong animal, but still an animal. Fly, Ray of Stupidity, or just beat them down. Doesn't really get painful until your MC figures out a 12 HD Magebred Fleshraker is Large size and only CR 5. Auto hit AC 20 and lower (aka, probably everyone at 5) for a total of 29-53 + 3-24 Dex damage, not counting the rakes, trips, and grapples. It's a good sign your MC is annoyed.
Greenbound Summoner: Kill the boss, ignore the rest.
I don't particularly care if the MC optimizes opposition, especially NPC humanoids. They damn sure need it. Just don't get too crazy with it.
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Ignoring absurd things like Pun-Pun and infinite loops, it's not hard to deal with the same tricks thrown back at you. PCs have more resources than NPCs, they can counter more things.
I don't particularly care if the MC optimizes opposition, especially NPC humanoids. They damn sure need it. Just don't get too crazy with it.
Exactly my thoughts. I still laught at how Drizzt was done in Forgotten Realms, after all that hype and Baldur's Gate 2 autokilling.
Juts for fun, the (hated) 3.0 Drizzt: Drow Fgt 10/Brb 1/Exp 5. Str 13, Dex 20, Con 15, int 17, Wis 17, Cha 14 Feats: Ambidextrerity, 2WF, I2WF, Quick Draw, WF(Scimitar), WS(Scimitar), Twin Sword Style, Dodge, Improved Initiative, Blind Fight, Mobility, Combat Reflexes. Hooo yay.
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easy. out optimize the DM :D
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Ignoring absurd things like Pun-Pun and infinite loops, it's not hard to deal with the same tricks thrown back at you. PCs have more resources than NPCs, they can counter more things.
I don't particularly care if the MC optimizes opposition, especially NPC humanoids. They damn sure need it. Just don't get too crazy with it.
Exactly my thoughts. I still laught at how Drizzt was done in Forgotten Realms, after all that hype and Baldur's Gate 2 autokilling.
Juts for fun, the (hated) 3.0 Drizzt: Drow Fgt 10/Brb 1/Exp 5. Str 13, Dex 20, Con 15, int 17, Wis 17, Cha 14 Feats: Ambidextrerity, 2WF, I2WF, Quick Draw, WF(Scimitar), WS(Scimitar), Twin Sword Style, Dodge, Improved Initiative, Blind Fight, Mobility, Combat Reflexes. Hooo yay.
Drizzt vs CR 10 Fire Giant. My money's on the MOB.
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3.5 games usually require a gentlemen's agreement to play within reason.
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3.5 games usually require a gentlemen's agreement to play within reason.
3.5 Role-playing games usually require a gentlemen's agreement to play within reason.
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When you really optimize, the game becomes like Shadowrun... combat is so lethal and enemies are so dangerous that you either fight from an ambush position (where you're gaurenteed victory) or you avoid fighting entirely. Running in headlong will just get you killed by a pouncing ubercharger. Scouting becomes critical, stealth becomes important, even using decoys is a big deal... you start doing things like having the Factotum keep everyone in an enveloping pit with a bottle of air (if they even needed to breathe) while he travels down the road looking like a pauper or sneaks along hidden, just to avoid major ambushes.
It's fun, but it's not for everyone. And it actually ends up feeling more tense and more realistic. You don't go into battle without a plan for victory and a plan to escape.
JaronK
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[strike]When you really optimize[/strike] When you play D&D, the game becomes like Shadowrun... combat is so lethal and enemies are so dangerous that you either fight from an ambush position (where you're gaurenteed victory) or you avoid fighting entirely. Running in headlong will just get you killed by a [strike]pouncing ubercharger[/strike] any routine encounter. [strike]Scouting[/strike] Divination becomes critical, stealth magic becomes important, even using decoys is a big deal... you start doing things like having the Factotum keep everyone in an enveloping pit with a bottle of air (if they even needed to breathe) while he travels down the road looking like a pauper or sneaks along hidden, just to avoid major ambushes.
It's fun, but it's not for everyone. And it actually ends up feeling more tense and more realistic. You don't go into battle without a plan for victory and a plan to escape.
JaronK
Fixed.
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[strike]When you really optimize[/strike] When you play D&D, the game becomes like Shadowrun... combat is so lethal and enemies are so dangerous that you either fight from an ambush position (where you're gaurenteed victory) or you avoid fighting entirely. Running in headlong will just get you killed by a [strike]pouncing ubercharger[/strike] any routine encounter. [strike]Scouting[/strike] Divination becomes critical, stealth magic becomes important, even using decoys is a big deal... you start doing things like having the Factotum keep everyone in an enveloping pit with a bottle of air (if they even needed to breathe) while he travels down the road looking like a pauper or sneaks along hidden, just to avoid major ambushes.
It's fun, but it's not for everyone. And it actually ends up feeling more tense and more realistic. You don't go into battle without a plan for victory and a plan to escape.
JaronK
Fixed.
Only if you've gotten into a pissing contest with the DM.
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[strike]When you really optimize[/strike] When you play D&D, the game becomes like Shadowrun... combat is so lethal and enemies are so dangerous that you either fight from an ambush position (where you're gaurenteed victory) or you avoid fighting entirely. Running in headlong will just get you killed by a [strike]pouncing ubercharger[/strike] any routine encounter. [strike]Scouting[/strike] Divination becomes critical, stealth magic becomes important, even using decoys is a big deal... you start doing things like having the Factotum keep everyone in an enveloping pit with a bottle of air (if they even needed to breathe) while he travels down the road looking like a pauper or sneaks along hidden, just to avoid major ambushes.
It's fun, but it's not for everyone. And it actually ends up feeling more tense and more realistic. You don't go into battle without a plan for victory and a plan to escape.
JaronK
Fixed.
Only if you've decided to play D&D.
Fixed.
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Ah, so Sunic equates "playing DnD" with "a pissing contest with the DM".
That concisely explains everything about his stances on everything.
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3.5 games usually require a gentlemen's agreement to play within reason.
3.5 Role-playing games usually require a gentlemen's agreement to play within reason.
Yep. In games where both the player and DMs are optimizers, one of the rules is basically "Don't do anything you don't want used against you.
For example, if you start pulling Candles of Invocation, you'll end up in a wishing contest with the DM.
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I see that in addition to scrambling your movement controls, having a mushroom on your head also impedes reading comprehension.