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The Thinktank => Min/Max It! => Topic started by: Endarire on January 07, 2011, 02:30:12 AM

Title: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Endarire on January 07, 2011, 02:30:12 AM
They're typically expensive, heavy, slowing, and impose a great armor check penalty.

I can get a chain shirt (4AC, 100G, 25lb), dastana (1AC, 25G, 5lb, Arms and Equipment Guide 15), and a chahar-aina (1AC, 75G, 10lb, Oriental Adventures 76) for far less than a suit of full plate (8AC, 1500G, 50lb).  There's only a 2 AC difference, but with the light armor set I'm ahead by 4ACP and 15lb.

I can also Tumble in light armor as any race.

I'm not seeing the point of other armors for most characters.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: The_Mad_Linguist on January 07, 2011, 02:43:56 AM
Typically it sucks.

If you're a dwarf and don't have arcane spells or a significant dex bonus, picking up Thaalud stone armor is actually pretty OK (+12 AC).  There's a psi feat that turns that into a deflection bonus when psionically focused
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Bozwevial on January 07, 2011, 02:51:27 AM
Hmm. Not bad, even if it is vaguely situational and requires a mediocre prerequisite.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: skydragonknight on January 07, 2011, 02:55:03 AM
Heavy Armor is for Paladins, who are so MAD by nature that it allows them to safely dump Dex without getting squished to death.

Medium armor only exists so that Barbarians can wear Mithril Full Plate.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: X-Codes on January 07, 2011, 04:39:52 AM
Heavy Armor is for Paladins, who are so MAD by nature that it allows them to safely dump Dex without getting squished to death.

Medium armor only exists so that Barbarians can wear Mithril Full Plate.
...or can get cheap, decent armor (read: scale) and still benefit from Fast Movement for the first few levels until Mithril Full Plate becomes affordable.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: skydragonknight on January 07, 2011, 04:43:30 AM
Yeah. May bad on the "only". Should have said "mostly". ;)
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Iskajir on January 07, 2011, 04:49:30 AM
Githcrafted Mithral  +1 Breastplate of Twilight and Nimbleness and CL 20 Greater Magic Vestment? (admitted not really medium).... There must be similar tricks, though perhaps not worthwhile, to get the last -1 acp and 10% acf off of Githcrafted Mithral  +1 Full plate of Twilight and Nimbleness.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: weenog on January 07, 2011, 05:28:11 AM
Meh, it's an extra layer of defense when you don't have much in the way of splatbook access or significant spellcasting.  Not everyone can manage two or three ability scores to AC and at least a 30 in each, and even those that theoretically could run the risk of pissing off their DM.

+1 full plate doesn't look too bad on a feral mineral warrior type with 13,000 gp to spend and a DM that becomes irritable when he's required to look through a different book for every thing the character has or can do.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: JaronK on January 07, 2011, 05:34:19 AM
The Chahar-aina and Dastanas mostly make full plate obsolete, since you can get a Chain Shirt plus both those for +6 AC.   If all three are mithral and the shirt is twilight, there's no armor check penalty or spell failure (and if you're not an arcane caster, you can get away with even cheaper).  Considering how much better your max dex bonus is, this makes heavy armor basically obsolete unless you either dumped dex or are at very low levels.  Heavy armor definitely needs some boosts to make it viable... I've used the house rule that medium armor gives DR/Adamantine equal to half its total AC bonus (including enchantments), while heavy armor gives that DR equal to the total AC bonus.  In both cases, making the armor out of adamantine makes the DR/- and increases it (by 2 or 3, respectively).  That seems to work, though I also make it so that DR never reduces damage below 1.  It also means mithral is no longer an automatic armor choice.

JaronK
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Shadowhunter on January 07, 2011, 06:22:42 AM
Otherwise we couldn't make an Iron Man artificer unless we go with a Warforged.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Maat_Mons on January 07, 2011, 06:58:40 AM
Clockwork armor (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cw/20070212a)? 
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Mixster on January 07, 2011, 07:47:12 AM
It's also useful if your group doesn't play with Arms and Equipment and Oriental adventures.

Also, I see no problem for a cleric running around in full plate, when your dex is bad, and you don't have tumble, why would you choose anything less than +8 ac?
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Runestar on January 07, 2011, 07:50:18 AM
The thing is that dastanas didn't exist when the PHB was first printed. The premise was simple - more AC at a cost. Heavy armour gave good protection without you having to invest heavily in dex (then a godsend for fighters and clerics).

But even then, you can tell armour wasn't well thought out. There wasn't any point to using any other type of armour other than chain-shirt, breastplate or fullplate. The rest were pretty much a waste of ink.  :p
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Mixster on January 07, 2011, 07:53:03 AM
But even then, you can tell armour wasn't well thought out. There wasn't any point to using any other type of armour other than chain-shirt, breastplate or fullplate. The rest were pretty much a waste of ink.  :p

Unless you are poor. Or a druid.

But yeah, the PHB somehow assumes you wont afford a full plate for a lot of levels.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: snakeman830 on January 07, 2011, 11:22:14 AM
I use Leather armor a lot myself, and not because I play a lot of druids.  It's just cheap, doesn't hinder movement at all (at earlier levels), and gives +2 AC.  I usually upgrade, but at level 1-3, it's not a bad option.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Shiki on January 07, 2011, 12:06:19 PM
As said before, the movement penalty is probably what makes those armors looks less appealing. Before movement begins to be more of an issue (after low levels) they can be useful, but later on there's also better ways to get AC (namely, spells), and AC clearly is not the best thing to invest money in.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: RobbyPants on January 07, 2011, 12:30:49 PM
The thing is that dastanas didn't exist when the PHB was first printed. The premise was simple - more AC at a cost. Heavy armour gave good protection without you having to invest heavily in dex (then a godsend for fighters and clerics).

But even then, you can tell armour wasn't well thought out. There wasn't any point to using any other type of armour other than chain-shirt, breastplate or fullplate. The rest were pretty much a waste of ink.  :p
Exactly.  I think it's that, and that they felt it was realistic (enough), and therefore, good.

In core only, there are surprisingly few viable armors.  Mithril makes breastplate obsolete, except for maybe Rangers who need to stay in light armor and want that +1 AC (even then, this has to be at a high enough level to warrant the extra 3,000 gp cost).  Once cost isn't such a factor, your three armors are mithril shirt, mithril breastplate, and mithril fullplate.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Sunic_Flames on January 07, 2011, 01:27:49 PM
They're typically expensive, heavy, slowing, and impose a great armor check penalty.

I can get a chain shirt (4AC, 100G, 25lb), dastana (1AC, 25G, 5lb, Arms and Equipment Guide 15), and a chahar-aina (1AC, 75G, 10lb, Oriental Adventures 76) for far less than a suit of full plate (8AC, 1500G, 50lb).  There's only a 2 AC difference, but with the light armor set I'm ahead by 4ACP and 15lb.

I can also Tumble in light armor as any race.

I'm not seeing the point of other armors for most characters.

This is.

(http://junk.ricecows.net/000%20lolcats%20000/its%20a%20trap.jpg)

Seriously. You're slowed, you can't Tumble, you get auto hit anyways and just to make it clear how badly you really fail at life, the light armor or no armor guy probably has more AC anyways. The base cost isn't a big deal, but those other factors are.

And sure you can do things like add an augment crystal so you can swim in full plate and grab a 2k or 3k item so heavy armor doesn't slow you and so forth, but then you're just paying to ungimp yourself.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: BruceLeeroy on January 07, 2011, 01:32:06 PM
I happen to be a fan of mithril mechanus gear, combined with Savnok's Tooth, and Energize armor. It's not scary effective, but for two feats you add +11 deflection, on a psywar/gish/lockdown build it ain't bad. Not a lot of mobility loss, either. Can't say I've used much heavy armor otherwise, except on the odd low-level cleric here and there.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Mixster on January 07, 2011, 01:54:08 PM
There's a 4000 gc slotless item that removes the movement penalty, so now your only problem with heavier armour is that you cannot tumble. If you don't have tumble on your class skill list and don't cast arcane spells and don't have a huge dex, I don't see the probelm with paying around 5k gold for +4AC.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: juton on January 07, 2011, 02:09:20 PM
Heavy armour has a point at lower levels, when AC still matters. If all you ever play is low levels then it matter a lot, it would have been nice though if they made banded mail/scale mail etc not suck.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Sunic_Flames on January 07, 2011, 02:13:42 PM
There's a 4000 gc slotless item that removes the movement penalty, so now your only problem with heavier armour is that you cannot tumble. If you don't have tumble on your class skill list and don't cast arcane spells and don't have a huge dex, I don't see the probelm with paying around 5k gold for +4AC.

2k. not 4k.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Ikeren on January 07, 2011, 02:48:31 PM
Making clerics awesome.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Nachofan99 on January 07, 2011, 05:43:35 PM
A couple of AC at lower levels is good; it just never scales.

They were supposed to make more spells and effects like Wall of Thorns, but didn't.

They were supposed to make a variety of status effects that simply wearing heavy armor would allow you to ignore, but didn't.  I use things like that in some of my games; heavy armor=no effect, medium=reduced, light=full, no armor=bonus effect.

Additionally, it's heavy/medium armor proficiency are great to trade for Drow Hit and Run Fighter Sub level in Drow of the Underdark and also the very underused and highly sweet Dragonscale Husk ACF in Dragon Magic.  Hey look, AC and resistance that scales with your level!  Hey look, a mechanic that makes sense for melee!  Sadly they just didn't deliver enough stuff *like* that.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: JaronK on January 07, 2011, 07:22:58 PM
At lower levels it can certainly be worth it, before you can afford stuff like the Chain Shirt/Dastana/Char-whatever combo.  This is especially true if you can craft your own gear before the game starts for the 2/3 cost reduction.  I made a Kobold Paladin with Mithral Mechanicus Gear that way... AC 24 at level 6 is actually quite effective, and with a mount his movement speed doesn't really matter.  Plus, the cost wasn't very steep at all.  Due to MAD, his Dex wasn't getting higher than 14 anyway.

JaronK
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: skydragonknight on January 08, 2011, 10:45:34 AM
Heavy Armor is for Paladins, who are so MAD by nature that it allows them to safely dump Dex without getting squished to death.

At lower levels it can certainly be worth it, before you can afford stuff like the Chain Shirt/Dastana/Char-whatever combo.  This is especially true if you can craft your own gear before the game starts for the 2/3 cost reduction.  I made a Kobold Paladin with Mithral Mechanicus Gear that way... AC 24 at level 6 is actually quite effective, and with a mount his movement speed doesn't really matter.  Plus, the cost wasn't very steep at all.  Due to MAD, his Dex wasn't getting higher than 14 anyway.

JaronK

^^
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Benly on January 08, 2011, 11:49:11 AM
On top of previous arguments, chahar-aina and dastana are from 3.0 sources which are either unupdated or Dragon-update only, putting them in a nebulous realm similar to Dragon material where access can't be assumed. They are also potentially setting-unavailable given how many campaigns play out in pseudo-European settings.

Even then, heavy armor is still too heavily penalized to be worthwhile for a lot of characters, especially at high levels where the couple of points of bonus get hidden under your various other bonuses, but hey, it's a couple extra points of AC on the cheap if you can mitigate the penalties. Medium armor outside mithral breastplates doesn't even have that going for it, though.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: raith0 on January 08, 2011, 11:52:04 AM
I have been working on creating my own game and in so have been studing and playing a lot of different systems over the course of the last year or two finding things i liked and things i didnt like.  the biggest thing i have noticed in every game i have played or read the rules for is this.  Heavier armor is either goddly or worthless or becomes worthless.  

I am currently working out a way to make Heavy Armors good but not brokenstupidgood without making light armors worthless.  one of the ideas i am conisdering that might transfer over into DnD some how is to allow you to "train off" the speed penalty and max dex bonus.  making it a skill or a combination of tumble ranks and a feat or two (tho i dont like the feat tax) may be able to do that.  

maybe lowerer the Prereqs for Armor specialization to something attainable by a fighter at 6th level or so and allow them to remove the speed penalty and if they have more ranks in tumble than the armor check penalty they can aply thier full dex mod no matter how high.  This allows for medium and heavy armors to be more usefull and may help AC matter a little longer than it had before.  

Ron
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Di Bastet on January 08, 2011, 12:49:37 PM
We use class defense bonus, so classes with heavy armor gives more ac than classes with less armor. Also armor gives DR/- equal to half it's base AC (medium is +1 and heavy is +2 AC than the basic PHB versions), and gives "damage conversion" turning lethal to non-lethal equal to the other half.

So, pretty much people who can use armor want to use armor because since they have the AC they can very well get some Dr. The one's without heavier armors try to improve their DR as much as they can...

It's true that me and my players had to rework much of the system, but at least armor shine now.

But in core, without UA rules and such, well, if you don't have the DEX, why not use a heavier armor? It's not every char in every game that can afford a mithril full plate, and most that can afford and already use a full plate won't really care to have one. Why would I? I don't care about DEX anyway. After all there are many things heavy-armor guy needs to buy!
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: PlzBreakMyCampaign on January 09, 2011, 12:55:13 AM
Since the dastana and chahar-aina aren't explicitly stackable with all armor that counts as light, this thread hasn't shown a light armor that reaches the same AC.

Perhaps I am missing a way to, say, have mithral breastplate (or medium armor with 1 better AC) work with the dastana and chahar-aina combo.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Littha on January 09, 2011, 03:00:57 AM
highly sweet Dragonscale Husk ACF in Dragon Magic. 

You mean the worst written ACF in existence? the one that stops you receiving other AC bonuses from any source and doesn't increase if you PRC out of your base class?
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: X-Codes on January 09, 2011, 03:25:18 AM
highly sweet Dragonscale Husk ACF in Dragon Magic. 

You mean the worst written ACF in existence? the one that stops you receiving other AC bonuses from any source and doesn't increase if you PRC out of your base class?
I had to go and actually re-read the ACF when I read that post, because I remembered it sucking so hardcore that I just turned the page.  Upon a second reading, the terrible writing of the feature actually has some pretty hardcore benefits, too.

For example, even though you can't wear armor with it, it's not an "armor" bonus to AC.  It's, in fact, a completely untyped bonus to AC, which means that it applies to touch AC and can be stacked with spells or items that grant armor bonuses to AC without being armor.  That's where the second part comes in: it doesn't stack with feats, racial traits, or special abilities, but it can stack with spells and magic items, so a level 1 Fighter under the effects of his Dragonscale Husk and a Mage Armor spell has an AC of 20, with a touch AC of 16.

As for advancement, all classes that grant heavy armor proficiency stack for the AC bonus, and a lot of PrCs do grant proficiencies.

That said, all this puts it into the "abusable" column, as opposed anything particularly godly.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Littha on January 09, 2011, 03:34:03 AM
By a lot of PrCs you obviously mean nearly none grant proficiencies...

 :lol
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Eviltedzies on January 09, 2011, 05:02:42 AM
A random thought occured to me...... The wording in the description of both Dastana and Chahar-Aina both states " Dastana/Chahar-Aina can be worn over certain other types of armor to provide an additional armor bonus that stacks with both the foundation armor and any shield worn."

So lets say I have a cleric wearing a chain shirt, dastana, a chahar-aina, and using a heavy steel shield.
If I casted Magic Vestment on each piece of armor, would they all stack?

(Chain Shirt- +4 armor bonus AC)+(Heavy Steel Shield- +2 shield bonus to AC)+(Dastana +1 stackable armor bonus AC)+(Chahar-Aina- +1 stackable armor bonus to AC)

So as a 20th level cleric would I get to add a +5 enhancement bonus to all of them? Normally bonuses of the same type don't stack, but armor and shield bonuses do so our chain shirt and steel shield would stack. Now since Dastana and Chahar-Aina say they stack with other armor/shield bonuses would that mean we could enhance them as well? I'm quite keen on the idea of gaining a +20 bonus to my AC for the cost of 4 level 3 spells.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: JaronK on January 09, 2011, 05:10:11 AM
A random thought occured to me...... The wording in the description of both Dastana and Chahar-Aina both states " Dastana/Chahar-Aina can be worn over certain other types of armor to provide an additional armor bonus that stacks with both the foundation armor and any shield worn."

So lets say I have a cleric wearing a chain shirt, dastana, a chahar-aina, and using a heavy steel shield.
If I casted Magic Vestment on each piece of armor, would they all stack?

No.  Dastanas explicitly don't stack that way, so if you have a +5 Chain Shirt and a +3 Dastana you'd get a total of +10 AC (+9 from the shirt, 1 from the Dastana, the +3 is ignored).  Chahar-Ainas implicitly don't, so that won't do anything either.  Basically, enchantments on the extras should be kept to +1, and then spent on abilities (like Heavy Fortification, since a +5 Chain Shirt and a pair of +1 Heavy Fortification Dastanas are much cheaper than a +5 Chain Shirt of Heavy Fortification).

JaronK
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Eviltedzies on January 09, 2011, 05:41:49 AM
Thanks for the clarification. Indeed it is much easier to acquire a set of relatively cheap items that work well as a whole than one expensive item that has everything on it.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: GawainBS on January 09, 2011, 07:25:14 AM
Where can I find that slotless item that does away with the Heavy Armour speed penalty? And which Psy feat make armour into a Deflection bonus?
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: poignant123 on January 09, 2011, 08:08:14 AM
Tooth of Savnok, Tome of Magic
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: X-Codes on January 09, 2011, 08:15:23 AM
By a lot of PrCs you obviously mean nearly none grant proficiencies...

 :lol
Well, whatever.  A one-level dip for a +6 untyped bonus to AC + something else is better than a kick in the pants.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: GawainBS on January 09, 2011, 08:58:36 AM
Tooth of Savnok, Tome of Magic

Thanks! And that Psionic feat?
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Slaughterhouserock on January 09, 2011, 10:48:31 AM
Thanks! And that Psionic feat?

Deflective Armor in RoS.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Runestar on January 09, 2011, 10:57:13 AM
highly sweet Dragonscale Husk ACF in Dragon Magic. 

You mean the worst written ACF in existence? the one that stops you receiving other AC bonuses from any source and doesn't increase if you PRC out of your base class?

The funny thing is that the husk counts as medium armour, yet you must have heavy armour prof, and it doesn't count armour prof feat, so the 2 classes who seem like they would benefit the most (barbs and druids) have no use for it.

Intentional or oversight? For fighters and paladins, it certainly doesn't matter if my armour is treated as heavy or medium... ???
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: GawainBS on January 09, 2011, 10:59:53 AM
Thanks! And that Psionic feat?

Deflective Armor in RoS.

Thanks!
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Integral on January 09, 2011, 11:23:23 AM
There's a 4000 gc slotless item that removes the movement penalty, so now your only problem with heavier armour is that you cannot tumble. If you don't have tumble on your class skill list and don't cast arcane spells and don't have a huge dex, I don't see the probelm with paying around 5k gold for +4AC.

Possibly just an SRD wording thing, AFB so can't check the PHB, but:

Quote from: SRD
Tumble (Dex; Trained Only; Armor Check Penalty)

You can’t use this skill if your speed has been reduced by armor, excess equipment, or loot.

So with a Tooth of Savnok, you can tumble in armor heavier than light.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Mixster on January 09, 2011, 12:06:38 PM
There's a 4000 gc slotless item that removes the movement penalty, so now your only problem with heavier armour is that you cannot tumble. If you don't have tumble on your class skill list and don't cast arcane spells and don't have a huge dex, I don't see the probelm with paying around 5k gold for +4AC.

Possibly just an SRD wording thing, AFB so can't check the PHB, but:

Quote from: SRD
Tumble (Dex; Trained Only; Armor Check Penalty)

You can’t use this skill if your speed has been reduced by armor, excess equipment, or loot.

So with a Tooth of Savnok, you can tumble in armor heavier than light.

Yeah it says the same thing in the PHB (just looked it up, page 84 if you want too).

I guess you can tumble in heavy armour if you have a Tooth of Savnok.

That then begs the question, what is the point of light and medium armour?
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Sunic_Flames on January 09, 2011, 12:17:52 PM
Tooth of Savnok is a unique item, and heavy armor still has a long list of disadvantages (starting with lower AC, which is rather counterproductive), the unique item just makes it suck a bit less?
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Nachofan99 on January 09, 2011, 05:24:15 PM
highly sweet Dragonscale Husk ACF in Dragon Magic. 

You mean the worst written ACF in existence? the one that stops you receiving other AC bonuses from any source and doesn't increase if you PRC out of your base class?

Wrong, disinformation, and garbage.  The some of the best QUOTE UNQUOTE "PrC's" for Fighter/Paladin are Warblade/Crusader and they certainly grant armor profs.

Obviously, if you wanted to play Pun-Pun through Pun-Pun minus 2, then you'd be playing Wizard/Cleric/Druid/Archivist/Ardent whatever.  If you're going to incorporate classes that are tier 5, then you make do with what you have.

Dragonscale Husk doesn't stack with AC feats - like super sweet Dodge?  The feat that everyone takes?  Yeah.  Oh no, it doesn't stack with racial bonuses to AC - again, who cares.  Your gnome fighter (laugh) won't get +4 AC...sometimes?  Or you can't stack your monk AC bonus with Husk, OH NOES! Get real.  Are you really going to build something like that?

Spells that boost your AC like Haste or Protection from Evil still work.  Items that boost your AC like Ring of Protection or Amulet of Natural Armor still work.  And yes, as noticed by someone else, you can also use Bracers of Armor with it.

It works in an AMF.  Give me a break, that's good. If that is never going to be useful in your campaign, then why are you playing melee anyways?

Resistance 20 Acid/Cold/Electricity/Fire is like having 112,000gp worth of rings at level 20 that work in AMFs.  That's the worst ACF ever written?  Hardly.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: dark_samuari on January 09, 2011, 05:34:07 PM
highly sweet Dragonscale Husk ACF in Dragon Magic. 

You mean the worst written ACF in existence? the one that stops you receiving other AC bonuses from any source and doesn't increase if you PRC out of your base class?

Wrong, disinformation, and garbage.  The some of the best QUOTE UNQUOTE "PrC's" for Fighter/Paladin are Warblade/Crusader and they certainly grant armor profs.

Obviously, if you wanted to play Pun-Pun through Pun-Pun minus 2, then you'd be playing Wizard/Cleric/Druid/Archivist/Ardent whatever.  If you're going to incorporate classes that are tier 5, then you make do with what you have.

Dragonscale Husk doesn't stack with AC feats - like super sweet Dodge?  The feat that everyone takes?  Yeah.  Oh no, it doesn't stack with racial bonuses to AC - again, who cares.  Your gnome fighter (laugh) won't get +4 AC...sometimes?  Or you can't stack your monk AC bonus with Husk, OH NOES! Get real.  Are you really going to build something like that?

Spells that boost your AC like Haste or Protection from Evil still work.  Items that boost your AC like Ring of Protection or Amulet of Natural Armor still work.  And yes, as noticed by someone else, you can also use Bracers of Armor with it.

It works in an AMF.  Give me a break, that's good. If that is never going to be useful in your campaign, then why are you playing melee anyways?

Resistance 20 Acid/Cold/Electricity/Fire is like having 112,000gp worth of rings at level 20 that work in AMFs.  That's the worst ACF ever written?  Hardly.

The problem many have with the alternate class feature is the inability to add any enchantments or upgrades. The dragon husk is pretty much locked in for what you are going to be getting, which is useful if you are running a very low wealth/equipment game but generally not the case.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Ikeren on January 09, 2011, 05:41:49 PM
Quote
Tooth of Savnok is a unique item, and heavy armor still has a long list of disadvantages (starting with lower AC, which is rather counterproductive), the unique item just makes it suck a bit less?

Heavy Armor is still for clerics. (Or Mithril Fullplate if you ever get the dex to take advantage of it).
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: JaronK on January 09, 2011, 05:52:41 PM
Wrong, disinformation, and garbage.  The some of the best QUOTE UNQUOTE "PrC's" for Fighter/Paladin are Warblade/Crusader and they certainly grant armor profs.

Warblade doesn't give heavy armor.  So... just something to consider.

Though you can get interesting enchantments, just wear a shirt and enchant it.  You won't get the AC buffs, but you will get the various other bonuses.

JaronK
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Nachofan99 on January 09, 2011, 06:09:37 PM
Wrong, disinformation, and garbage.  The some of the best QUOTE UNQUOTE "PrC's" for Fighter/Paladin are Warblade/Crusader and they certainly grant armor profs.

Warblade doesn't give heavy armor.  So... just something to consider.

Though you can get interesting enchantments, just wear a shirt and enchant it.  You won't get the AC buffs, but you will get the various other bonuses.

JaronK

Sigh, I know about Warblade - I specifically didn't write "both grant heavy armor prof," for a reason.  Someone else mentioned medium armor prof *somewhere* and I amalgamated.  But still, Crusader certainly does.

About not being about to enchant the armor - honestly, I find that pointless.  And you say why JaronK - just get something else enchanted.

If you have wealth and can buy magic items, you will use the wealth to...buy...magic...items.   What would you enchant your armor with that you absolutely CANNOT get in another slot or another way?  Honestly, very, very little.  Doesn't mean there aren't a few things, but again, very little.  Nothing absolutely game changing because you're Tier 5.

Again, Tier 5 classes are Tier 5.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: ninjarabbit on January 09, 2011, 06:29:01 PM
Here's the issues with armor and AC in general:

-AC is only a small measure of a character's defense. You also have to look at things like saving throws, spell resistance, hit points, various special abilities like evasion and mettle, etc so it's not usually wise to invest a disproportional amount of resources into significantly raising your AC.

-AC is easily replaceable with spells/abilites like mirror image, blink, displacement, wings of cover, wind wall, invisibility, etc. Plus there's plenty of AC boosting spells like alter self, polymorph, haste, barkskin, shield of faith, shield, mage armor, magic vestment, etc and most of them are fairly low level (3rd level or less) so it won't be a tremendous use of resources at mid-to-high levels.

-Generally speaking you're better off investing in several different smaller AC types (armor, shield, natural, dodge, deflection, sacred/profane etc) than focusing your resources on one big AC boosting item.

-After a certain point AC simply doesn't really manner against some combat monsters unless you get your AC very high. But like I said with my first investing a significant amount of resources in AC can easily leave you more vunerable in other areas of defense.

When you add up all of these factors it's very easy to see why armor isn't that important other than providing various armor enchantments to characters.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Aliment on January 09, 2011, 09:03:34 PM
Okay so ignoring all the crap armor that isn't Breastplate or Full Plate in core, what should be done to raise these armors to decency?  I think Medium should give a lesser penalty to movement, and Breastplate should just have a higher AC bonus (like +7) and maybe cost a tad more.  And then up Full Plate to a strong +10.  It gives a +3/+3 difference rather than the stupid +1/+2 difference that is around currently.

Of course, it does nothing to nerf the cleric, but at least Cloisterd Cleric is a slightly harder decision.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: The_Mad_Linguist on January 09, 2011, 09:23:45 PM
Give heavy armor a couple of points of DR too. 
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Mixster on January 09, 2011, 10:57:30 PM
But the problem is that at the higher levels, there is no real point to having a high AC and a high DR since most attacks will just cirumvent those things.

I like the sentiment of increasing the AC of medium armour by 2 and heavy armours by 4, and giving them some DR (I'd be thinking 2 and 4 respectively). But I don't think it would help a lot in the long run, the cleric would be better in the beginning though.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Lycanthromancer on January 09, 2011, 11:26:29 PM
Okay so ignoring all the crap armor that isn't Breastplate or Full Plate in core, what should be done to raise these armors to decency?  I think Medium should give a lesser penalty to movement, and Breastplate should just have a higher AC bonus (like +7) and maybe cost a tad more.  And then up Full Plate to a strong +10.  It gives a +3/+3 difference rather than the stupid +1/+2 difference that is around currently.

Of course, it does nothing to nerf the cleric, but at least Cloisterd Cleric is a slightly harder decision.
No movement penalties for full plate (seriously, it's not hard to do backflips in even), and grant miss-chances to heavy armor, even on a nat 20 attack roll. A flat percentage chance that stacks with other miss chances.

Just because WotC won't give non-initiator mundanes nice things doesn't mean we can't.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: skydragonknight on January 09, 2011, 11:38:25 PM
Biggest issues with Dragonscale Husk:

1. Depends on what classes you take, so either you're limiting your choices or you're limiting the effectiveness of the ACF. A couple exceptions like a straight Crusader lock build would be viable.

2. IIRC, Soulfire is Armor-only. And it's one of the best armor/weapon properties in the game. The only reason NOT to get Soulfire is if BoED isn't an allowed sourcebook for that game.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: The_Mad_Linguist on January 09, 2011, 11:40:11 PM
AEG says you can stick armor enchants onto bracers of armor.

So there's that.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Lycanthromancer on January 09, 2011, 11:42:54 PM
AEG says you can stick armor enchants onto bracers of armor.

So there's that.
But who would want to? They're too damned expensive.

I could maybe see it if you were about to hit epic enhancements, just due to the cost, but it's the principle of the thing.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: The_Mad_Linguist on January 09, 2011, 11:50:07 PM
You get bracers of armor +1, slap soulfire onto them, call it good.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: skydragonknight on January 09, 2011, 11:55:00 PM
So it works for a single classed Crusader with low dex...Dragonborn probably, since you'd need the dragonblood subtype. Though it would only really be a niche armor.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: X-Codes on January 10, 2011, 12:16:30 AM
You get bracers of armor +1, slap soulfire onto them, call it good.
You could also consider them to be the "enhancement" bonus to your Dragonscale Husk, since the pricing scales exactly the same way.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: X-Codes on January 10, 2011, 12:43:38 AM
But the problem is that at the higher levels, there is no real point to having a high AC and a high DR since most attacks will just cirumvent those things.
Nothing circumvents DR X/--, and DR ~10/-- combined with Elusive Target is a pretty damn good combination for any kind of "tanking" character.

As for how to change armors to make them useful, let me pull some homebrew out of my ass:

1) Cost of Armor Enhancements is doubled, so +1 armor costs 2k, +2 armor costs 8k, etc.  Look at the weapon table to see what I mean.  On the other hand, the enhancement bonus now applies to DR provided by the armor.  Shield costs are unchanged.

2) Special Armor Abilities with a cost based on an enhancement bonus have the cost of the bonus reduced by 1, to a minimum of 1, so Heavy Fort is a +4 instead of a +5.  As such, an old +1 Heavy Fort suit of armor costs 36k while a new +1 Heavy Fort suit of armor costs 32k.  Abilities put on Shields are, again, unchanged.

3) Light armors get the following overhauls:
Studded Leather- DR 1/--
Chain Shirt- DR 1/--
Even though they provide no DR themselves, something like a +1 Leather Armor will provide DR 1/-- as normal.

3) Medium armors get the following overhauls:
Hide- +5 AC, DR 2/--, Max Dex +4, ACP -3
Hide is the super-budget medium armor, and the only medium non-metallic armor.
Scale- +6 AC, DR 3/--, Max Dex +3, ACP -3
Budget medium armor for 1st-level characters.
Chain- +7 AC, DR 4/--, Max Dex +2, ACP -4, 200 GP cost
Low-dex medium armor for experienced characters.
Breastplate- +6 AC, DR 3/--, Max Dex +4, ACP -3, 250 GP cost
High-dex medium armor for experienced characters.

4) Heavy armors get the following overhauls:
Splint Mail- +8 AC, DR 4/--, Max Dex +0, ACP -6, 100gp cost
Budget heavy armor for 1st-level characters.  Let the Fighters and Clerics put that proficiency to use at first level.
Banded Mail- +10 AC, DR 4/--, Max Dex +2, ACP -5, 400gp cost
"High"-Dex heavy armor for experienced characters.
Half-Plate- +11 AC, DR 5/--, Max Dex +0, ACP -6, 500gp cost
Low-dex heavy armor for experienced characters.
Full-Plate- +10 AC, DR 5/--, Max Dex +1, ACP -5, 600gp cost
Middle ground between Banded and Half-Plate.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: The_Mad_Linguist on January 10, 2011, 12:44:55 AM
Nothing circumvents DR X/--,
Energy damage and certain maneuvers.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: X-Codes on January 10, 2011, 12:48:06 AM
Nothing circumvents DR X/--,
Energy damage and certain maneuvers.
That's what Resist Energy, Protection from Energy, and Energy Immunity spells are for.  Mass Resist Energy is a 4th-level spell, by the time you deal with anything that can do a sizable chunk of energy damage you should also be able to give the party a sizable resistance to it.

Besides, don't all BGs and their mothers mock blasty spells?
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Widow on January 10, 2011, 02:17:50 AM
I mostly agree that heavy armor is only useful in a few situations, but I would also extend that into all types of armor.  The best use of armor is to grant an additional magic item slot.  The more detriments the armor has, ie the heavier the type, the less attractive it is as a magic item slot.  Also modifiers to offset these detriments only go so far.  That being said, here are a few that I have used to make NPC villain armor that looks cool, but is totally unnecessary.

Sources

Full Plate       1,500gp     DMG
Mithral          9,000gp  DMG
Glassteel (-pure ore)               Races of Faerun (there is an update someplace)
Fey-Crafted Template           500gp  DMGII
Thistledown Suit                  500gp   Races of the Wild
Nimble Enhancement     +1      Magic Item Compendium
Twilight          +1      Magic Item Compendium
Caster Armor      1,000gp   Dragon #358
Lightweight        500gp   Dragon #358
Reinforced      1,200gp   Dragon #358
Segmented         300gp   Dragon #358
Half-weight          +3   Underdark
Pure Ore                    7,000gp   Dragon #347

Lets start with Full Plate, Mechanis and Stone Plate have too high of an arcane spell failure and armor check penalties.

Armor               8
Max Dex           1
Armor Check Penalty      -6
Spell Failure         35%
Weight            50lbs
Heavy Armor

Non-magical stuff first
Mithral -10% Spell Failure, Max Dex +2, Armor Check Penalty reduced by 3, Half-weight, Higher HP and hardness
Feycrafted -10% weight, -1 Hardness, -5% Spell Failure
Thistledown suit -5% spell failure, +1 armor check penalty
Caster Armor -5% Arcane Spell Failure
Lightweight -20% weight
Reinforced +10% Weight, +1 AC
Segmented +1 Max Dex
Pure Ore Double HP and hardness

Net
Armor            9
Max Dex         4
Armor Check Penalty      -4
Spell Failure         10%
Weight            20.0 lbs
Medium Armor
Price            21,500gp

Magic
Nimble +1 Max dex, 2 less armor check penalty
Twilight -10% Spell Failure
Half-weight  Half-weight, armor counts as light armor
Manditory +1 armor enchantment

Net
Armor            9+1
Max Dex         5
Armor Check Penalty      -2
Spell Failure         0%
Weight            10.0 lbs
Light Armor
Price            +36,000gp

You can add blueshine for good measure to keep the armor from being rusted.  Overall though, a lot of work to get armor that functions.  Also all of these tricks can be applied to light armor to get the same result without any magic at all, as below.

Mithril chain shirt
Armor            5
Max Dex         7
Armor Check Penalty      0
Spell Failure         0%
Weight            10 lbs   
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: The_Mad_Linguist on January 10, 2011, 03:00:27 AM
I think you can stack cyrite onto all of that for +1 resistance to saves... depends upon whether or not the DM thinks the Mourning would prevent an item from counting as being made of pure ore or not.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Runestar on January 10, 2011, 05:09:14 AM
Biggest issues with Dragonscale Husk:

1. Depends on what classes you take, so either you're limiting your choices or you're limiting the effectiveness of the ACF. A couple exceptions like a straight Crusader lock build would be viable.

Maybe that's the idea - to "encourage" people to go fighter20 or something... :p
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: skydragonknight on January 10, 2011, 07:19:44 AM
Biggest issues with Dragonscale Husk:

1. Depends on what classes you take, so either you're limiting your choices or you're limiting the effectiveness of the ACF. A couple exceptions like a straight Crusader lock build would be viable.

Maybe that's the idea - to "encourage" people to go fighter20 or something... :p

I wonder if we could make a 'Hood' build that only requires base classes with heavy armor proficiency? It requires a lot of Fighter feats adn can get the Cleric dip...Crusader maneuvers are possible. Pounce will be tricky. Would probably have to be a Catfolk.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Integral on January 10, 2011, 09:08:58 AM
I wonder if we could make a 'Hood' build that only requires base classes with heavy armor proficiency? It requires a lot of Fighter feats adn can get the Cleric dip...Crusader maneuvers are possible. Pounce will be tricky. Would probably have to be a Catfolk.

Or Psychic Warrior and Psionic Lion's Charge maybe.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Sunic_Flames on January 10, 2011, 10:45:35 AM
If your BAB is equal to the base armor bonus of the armor / 2, you do not suffer a movement penalty in that armor, even if you normally would. For every point by which your BAB exceeds this number you lower the ACP of the armor by 1, to a minimum of 0. Once you reduce the ACP to 0, every point of BAB beyond that number increases the Max Dex by 1, to a maximum of double its initial value.

So...

Beatstick with MW full plate, and 4 BAB = full movement in heavy armor, which includes tumbling.

5-9 BAB lowers ACP from 5 down to 4-0.

10 BAB increases Max Dex to 2. And that's as good as it gets.

Give him mithril full plate instead and it's 4 BAB for full movement, 5-7 to reduce ACP to nothing, 8-10 to increase Max Dex from 3 to 4-6.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Bloody Initiate on January 10, 2011, 11:45:11 AM
If your BAB is equal to the base armor bonus of the armor / 2, you do not suffer a movement penalty in that armor, even if you normally would. For every point by which your BAB exceeds this number you lower the ACP of the armor by 1, to a minimum of 0. Once you reduce the ACP to 0, every point of BAB beyond that number increases the Max Dex by 1, to a maximum of double its initial value.

So...

Beatstick with MW full plate, and 4 BAB = full movement in heavy armor, which includes tumbling.

5-9 BAB lowers ACP from 5 down to 4-0.

10 BAB increases Max Dex to 2. And that's as good as it gets.

Give him mithril full plate instead and it's 4 BAB for full movement, 5-7 to reduce ACP to nothing, 8-10 to increase Max Dex from 3 to 4-6.

That'd be nice. Do you see any problem with allowing BAB OR Strength bonus as a way of alleviating the penalties? That way a particularly strong warrior with some training can move in full plate as easily as a well-trained warrior without exceptional strength?
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Integral on January 10, 2011, 12:58:26 PM
If your BAB is equal to the base armor bonus of the armor / 2, you do not suffer a movement penalty in that armor, even if you normally would. For every point by which your BAB exceeds this number you lower the ACP of the armor by 1, to a minimum of 0. Once you reduce the ACP to 0, every point of BAB beyond that number increases the Max Dex by 1, to a maximum of double its initial value.

So...

Beatstick with MW full plate, and 4 BAB = full movement in heavy armor, which includes tumbling.

5-9 BAB lowers ACP from 5 down to 4-0.

10 BAB increases Max Dex to 2. And that's as good as it gets.

Give him mithril full plate instead and it's 4 BAB for full movement, 5-7 to reduce ACP to nothing, 8-10 to increase Max Dex from 3 to 4-6.

That'd be nice. Do you see any problem with allowing BAB OR Strength bonus as a way of alleviating the penalties? That way a particularly strong warrior with some training can move in full plate as easily as a well-trained warrior without exceptional strength?

Depends on the original motivation of the modifications. Making it keyed off Strength makes it much easier to achieve with magic (via Polymorph, Bite of the WereX etc) than keyed off BAB (though it's not like getting Divine Power is hard).
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Bloody Initiate on January 10, 2011, 01:01:21 PM
If your BAB is equal to the base armor bonus of the armor / 2, you do not suffer a movement penalty in that armor, even if you normally would. For every point by which your BAB exceeds this number you lower the ACP of the armor by 1, to a minimum of 0. Once you reduce the ACP to 0, every point of BAB beyond that number increases the Max Dex by 1, to a maximum of double its initial value.

So...

Beatstick with MW full plate, and 4 BAB = full movement in heavy armor, which includes tumbling.

5-9 BAB lowers ACP from 5 down to 4-0.

10 BAB increases Max Dex to 2. And that's as good as it gets.

Give him mithril full plate instead and it's 4 BAB for full movement, 5-7 to reduce ACP to nothing, 8-10 to increase Max Dex from 3 to 4-6.

That'd be nice. Do you see any problem with allowing BAB OR Strength bonus as a way of alleviating the penalties? That way a particularly strong warrior with some training can move in full plate as easily as a well-trained warrior without exceptional strength?

Depends on the original motivation of the modifications. Making it keyed off Strength makes it much easier to achieve with magic (via Polymorph, Bite of the WereX etc) than keyed off BAB (though it's not like getting Divine Power is hard).

I thought of that, and figured you could require at least 1 point of BAB or something to make sure that people had both, but it started looking complicated and I figured the simpler the better. Perhaps the same of train of thought would determine it's best left to just BAB.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Sohala on January 10, 2011, 02:49:34 PM
But the problem is that at the higher levels, there is no real point to having a high AC and a high DR since most attacks will just cirumvent those things.
Nothing circumvents DR X/--, and DR ~10/-- combined with Elusive Target is a pretty damn good combination for any kind of "tanking" character.
Force effects, such as a bound crystal helm soulmeld?

For the dragonscale husk discussion. It really shines in gestalt, just stick a heavy armor class(s) on one side.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Sunic_Flames on January 10, 2011, 04:12:27 PM
If your BAB is equal to the base armor bonus of the armor / 2, you do not suffer a movement penalty in that armor, even if you normally would. For every point by which your BAB exceeds this number you lower the ACP of the armor by 1, to a minimum of 0. Once you reduce the ACP to 0, every point of BAB beyond that number increases the Max Dex by 1, to a maximum of double its initial value.

So...

Beatstick with MW full plate, and 4 BAB = full movement in heavy armor, which includes tumbling.

5-9 BAB lowers ACP from 5 down to 4-0.

10 BAB increases Max Dex to 2. And that's as good as it gets.

Give him mithril full plate instead and it's 4 BAB for full movement, 5-7 to reduce ACP to nothing, 8-10 to increase Max Dex from 3 to 4-6.

That'd be nice. Do you see any problem with allowing BAB OR Strength bonus as a way of alleviating the penalties? That way a particularly strong warrior with some training can move in full plate as easily as a well-trained warrior without exceptional strength?

It either wouldn't make any difference, or would have unintended side effects. BAB is at least semi level based. Strength? A level 1 character can have 8 Str or 28. And it only diverges further from there.

Yes, Divine Power does count. It's still limited by your character level.

Keep in mind, other effects can increase the initial value. For example, add Nimbleness and you increase max Dex by 1 and lower ACP by 2. So it now looks like:

4 BAB: No movement penalty.
5 BAB: Lower ACP from 1 to 0.
6-9 BAB: Increase max Dex from 4 to 5-8.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Mixster on January 10, 2011, 08:03:42 PM
But the problem is that at the higher levels, there is no real point to having a high AC and a high DR since most attacks will just cirumvent those things.
Nothing circumvents DR X/--, and DR ~10/-- combined with Elusive Target is a pretty damn good combination for any kind of "tanking" character.

Those are nice house rules, they certainly make armour better, since I haven't tested them I can't tell you whether it's too much or too little.

What I can tell you they wont stop wizards from hitting things with shivering touch to reduce their dex, and it wont stop the gazillion other ways of killing things than trying to reduce their hit points. But since monsters play the hit point game, it is a pretty cool idea to buff survivability.

Do you also make give natural armour critters a damage reduction or do you recon most monsters have enough damage reduction?
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: X-Codes on January 10, 2011, 11:14:00 PM
Natural Armor doesn't come with the drawbacks of physical armor, so I don't think it's a good idea.  Note that most of the light armors aren't getting much, if any, DR for that exact same reason.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: nijineko on January 11, 2011, 05:16:04 AM
i'm enjoying some of the ideas this discussion is bringing to light. i wound up with a character that can't wear armor, and so enchanted a robe and bracers with +1 armor bonus each, and put armor crystals on them. while not explicitly stated, if bracers can get abilities, then in theory a robe should be able to too as it is allowed to have an armor bonus.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Aliment on January 11, 2011, 03:15:26 PM
I dislike giving armor miss-chance, as it slows down gameplay so much.

And having armor available at level 1 that gives DR 4/-?  I would like to see tougher beatsticks but you make Kobolds cry.  I think a simple boost to armor, and the "BAB makes armor easier to use" rules, mixed with the AC is DR (from Unearthed Arcana) would fix the problem at least to an agreeable point.

So your average level 5 Beatstick with Heavy armor and Full BAB would have the ability to move properly, 5AC, DR 5/- and a +1 Max Dex (plus a slightly lower ACP).  He's going to take every hit, but the armor should absorb a nice portion of the damage.  And Kobolds really are no longer a threat at level 5.  Yeah!
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: weenog on January 11, 2011, 05:22:31 PM
If the kobolds are stupid enough to just be attacking with weapons, they deserve to be made to cry.  Plain vanilla kobolds' primary advantage is numbers.  They play merry hell with action economy.  You know what people with not much money but with plenty of actions do when they want to use energy damage to go around damage reduction? Oil and a thrown torch.  It's not difficult to have the entire party on fire and taking damage at CR 2 or 3 when your individual CR is 1/4.  Even a CR 1, just 4 kobolds, is enough to set two guys on fire per round.  How many heavy armor wearers do you expect in a party, anyway?
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Sunic_Flames on January 11, 2011, 06:21:53 PM
FAIL!

UA AC as DR rules make you take more damage, not less.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: weenog on January 11, 2011, 06:34:58 PM
How you think you're impressing anybody with complaining repeatedly that achievable AC does nothing significant to reduce incoming damage, and then complaining that swapping a small chunk of it for DR also does nothing significant to reduce incoming damage, when all you really bring is insults, large print, the occasional silly picture, and frequent abuse of the No True Scotsman fallacy, is beyond me.

You got some rulebook knowledge but you can't argue to save your life, SF.  I don't claim to be a master of it myself, but at least I'm not making any lofty boasts about my logic.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Shadowhunter on January 11, 2011, 08:04:47 PM
I've always thought that the heavy armor should be the only one that could take Heavy Fortification, since it needs to cover a lot to cover everything.

So, available Fortification enhancements based upon type:
Light Armor: Light 25%
Medium: Light 25%/Moderate 75%
Heavy: Light 25%/Moderate 75%/Heavy 100%
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Mixster on January 11, 2011, 08:09:58 PM
I've always thought that the heavy armor should be the only one that could take Heavy Fortification, since it needs to cover a lot to cover everything.

So, available Fortification enhancements based upon type:
Light Armor: Light 25%
Medium: Light 25%/Moderate 75%
Heavy: Light 25%/Moderate 75%/Heavy 100%

That makes sense, what would you do to heavy fortification on shields?

How you think you're impressing anybody with complaining repeatedly that achievable AC does nothing significant to reduce incoming damage, and then complaining that swapping a small chunk of it for DR also does nothing significant to reduce incoming damage, when all you really bring is insults, large print, the occasional silly picture, and frequent abuse of the No True Scotsman fallacy, is beyond me.

You got some rulebook knowledge but you can't argue to save your life, SF.  I don't claim to be a master of it myself, but at least I'm not making any lofty boasts about my logic.

While I do agree with you there, I think I also stated the point that DR does really little to practically reduce damage, at least for monsters. For PCs it's a little better. But ability damage is usually worse than HP damage in my eyes anyway, so things that stop that are better IMO.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: wotmaniac on January 11, 2011, 09:44:22 PM
I've always thought that the heavy armor should be the only one that could take Heavy Fortification, since it needs to cover a lot to cover everything.

So, available Fortification enhancements based upon type:
Light Armor: Light 25%
Medium: Light 25%/Moderate 75%
Heavy: Light 25%/Moderate 75%/Heavy 100%

That makes sense, what would you do to heavy fortification on shields?
hows about:
buckler: Light 25%
light shield: Light 25%/Moderate 75%
heavy shield: Light 25%/Moderate 75%/Heavy 100%
:shrug
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Shadowhunter on January 11, 2011, 09:48:49 PM
I'm hesitant to see a shield totally negating precision damage since it covers only a part of the body. But that might just be my misguided sense of "realism" ;)

So I'd say that you could toss Light Fort. on Bucklers and Light, while Moderate on Heavy and Tower.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: veekie on January 11, 2011, 11:16:45 PM
How you think you're impressing anybody with complaining repeatedly that achievable AC does nothing significant to reduce incoming damage, and then complaining that swapping a small chunk of it for DR also does nothing significant to reduce incoming damage, when all you really bring is insults, large print, the occasional silly picture, and frequent abuse of the No True Scotsman fallacy, is beyond me.
I think its more an issue with how UA does it than with the concept though.
DR pays and pays well in the long run for melee, as long as your AC to DR exchange rate is at least comparable to the PA ratio AND scales with level via enhancement bonuses.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: juton on January 12, 2011, 12:08:14 AM
How effective AC and DR will be is dependent on your DM and your character concept but I'm confident both will make a difference. For a baseline, at level 10 getting your character to AC 30 will mean you will notice a reduction in attacks hitting you, every point above that is even better. Getting DR 5/- at that level is also a noticeable improvement, although a small one, getting your DR up to 10 really helps a PC's longevity, stone skin is definitely worth casting. AC and DR matter, if you have enough of them.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: veekie on January 12, 2011, 12:35:32 AM
Yeah, but the perk of DR is its noticeable on a long day and in particular, keeps cumulative damage from plinking you to death(leading cause of Death By Full Attack), it works whether or not you get hit, and physical damage is generally more consistent and less variable per dose than to hits.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: X-Codes on January 12, 2011, 02:12:06 AM
I have to pop back in and defend my houserules.

Level 1 guy in heavy armor moves at 20' speed and runs at 3x speed.
Kobold moves at 30' speed and runs at 4x speed.

Have one or two kobolds distract heavy armor guy while the rest attack squishier characters.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: zugschef on January 12, 2011, 03:03:31 AM
i have made a homebrew some time ago. why not just post it here...

Quote
VARIANT: BAB-based Armor Scaling

I. Introduction
II. Basic Mechanic
III. To do!



I. Introduction

Armor in DnD scales poorly. Medium and heavy armor even tend to cause more trouble than they help a character: Think of the penalties to skills and movement speed. At high levels a mithral breast plate +5 is usually the best armor available to melee types, because it's considered light armor. Thus, a fighter's armor proficiencies only provide an advantage compared to other classes in the early levels of the game, when he cannot afford full plate, yet. Later on, full plate becomes a suboptimal choice in most cases. This variant tries to change this flaw.

Since bab represents your combat prowess, it should not only affect your offense but your defense, too. The new mechanic lets you add a portion of your bab to your normal AC. This effect increases the heavier your armor is. In in-game terms this means that your character has learned to protect the vulnerable areas not covered by his armor, and because heavier armor has less weak points, they are easier to defend which results in a bigger bonus to AC.


II. Basic Mechanic

The base attack bonus represents a character's experience and skill in combat. Based on that, you gain a bonus to your AC which improves the heavier your armor is.

A character who doesn't wear armor, wears light armor or is not proficient with the armor worn, gains no bonus to AC. Medium armor grants bab/6 (round down, maximum +3) to AC and heavy armor grants bab/4 (round down, maximum +5) to a character's AC.

This armor bonus is active only while you are not flat-footed or denied your dexterity bonus to AC and does not add to your touch AC. Further, only your normal base attack bonus is taken into account to determine the AC bonus; effects such as the one from the divine power spell do not count.

Tordek the fighter has a bab of 14, a dexterity modifier of 0 and wears a full plate +3. Since he wears heavy armor, he may add one-quarter of his bab to AC as long as he is not flat-footed or denied his dexterity bonus to AC. In effect, he has an AC of 24 rather than 21.


III. To Do!

full plate and half plate give the same bonus, as do chain mail and splint mail... is that a problem?
doesn't it break d20's core mechanic when you let bab influence ac?
shouldn't this bonus also increase touch ac? but if yes, how do you explain it in in-game terms?
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Sunic_Flames on January 12, 2011, 12:55:30 PM
How you think you're impressing anybody with complaining repeatedly that achievable AC does nothing significant to reduce incoming damage, and then complaining that swapping a small chunk of it for DR also does nothing significant to reduce incoming damage, when all you really bring is insults, large print, the occasional silly picture, and frequent abuse of the No True Scotsman fallacy, is beyond me.

You got some rulebook knowledge but you can't argue to save your life, SF.  I don't claim to be a master of it myself, but at least I'm not making any lofty boasts about my logic.

Herp derp all you want. And then remember that variant lowers AC by x, and gives DR x/- of the same amount. Which means everything PAs you, and does the same or more damage as it otherwise would. Usually more. Now I didn't bother spelling out the blatantly obvious, because I was on BG, and was therefore under the erroneous assumption that everyone here was intelligent enough to immediately understand why such a tactic fails without my having to explain it. However, your idiocy is noted, and will be considered in the future.

Also, anything less than Heavy Fort is worthless.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: weenog on January 12, 2011, 02:04:28 PM
That's nice.  Because you can't get armor bonuses to AC from other sources that are big enough to make up for the loss and get you back to a value at or near what you'd have without getting any DR for it.  Oh wait, you totally can do that, at which point the DR option isn't beneficial how exactly?  Something hitting you with an energy attack doesn't care about your DR, granted, but it tends not to care about any armor bonus to your AC either, so that's just breaking even.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Sunic_Flames on January 12, 2011, 02:27:02 PM
That's nice.  Because you can't get armor bonuses to AC from other sources that are big enough to make up for the loss and get you back to a value at or near what you'd have without getting any DR for it.  Oh wait, you totally can do that, at which point the DR option isn't beneficial how exactly?  Something hitting you with an energy attack doesn't care about your DR, granted, but it tends not to care about any armor bonus to your AC either, so that's just breaking even.

Even with armor granting its full value, you cannot have a relevant AC, so no. And anything you could have gotten to raise your physical defense you could have gotten either way, so no matter what you take the same or more damage from absolutely everything.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Maat_Mons on January 12, 2011, 02:34:39 PM
FAIL! UA AC as DR rules make you take more damage, not less.

That might be a relevant comment if you were responding to a post about that Unearthed Arcana variant.  Since you were responding to a post about X-Codes' homebrew variant that increases the armor bonus and adds DR on top of that, I submit that it is you who has failed. 
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: weenog on January 12, 2011, 02:35:33 PM
So trading away some AC (which you can get back, except it's irrelevant anyway so you needn't bother) for some damage reduction makes you take more damage, not less.

And I suppose if you do recover the sacrificed AC, so you have the AC and the damage reduction, you're taking more damage twice, once for AC that doesn't matter and once for damage reduction that doesn't matter.

Interesting.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: juton on January 12, 2011, 04:10:54 PM
Even with armor granting its full value, you cannot have a relevant AC, so no. And anything you could have gotten to raise your physical defense you could have gotten either way, so no matter what you take the same or more damage from absolutely everything.

You absolutely can get relevant AC at almost every level. My definition of relevant is, at worst a BBEG has to use less power attack to hit reliably. If you've built your character with AC in mind it's probably not too much of a stretch that even a boss will have to forgo power attack to reliably hit you at all.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: X-Codes on January 12, 2011, 04:14:59 PM
Even with armor granting its full value, you cannot have a relevant AC, so no. And anything you could have gotten to raise your physical defense you could have gotten either way, so no matter what you take the same or more damage from absolutely everything.

You absolutely can get relevant AC at almost every level. My definition of relevant is, at worst a BBEG has to use less power attack to hit reliably. If you've built your character with AC in mind it's probably not too much of a stretch that even a boss will have to forgo power attack to reliably hit you at all.
This is the big reason why I never really understood the arguments against AC...
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: weenog on January 12, 2011, 04:20:07 PM
I wonder if what happens is that people mean to say that AC will not be as effective (nor in many cases as efficient) as non-AC defenses such as multiple separately-checked miss chances, immunities, interrupts like Abjurant Jaunt and the like, and wind up mistakenly just saying that AC will not be effective, and then just carry it much further than they should due to being unwilling, or unable, to admit they fucked up.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Mixster on January 12, 2011, 04:20:16 PM
Quote
Also, anything less than Heavy Fort is worthless.

Why do you think that?

I like medium fort at a +3 bonus; a +1 (who would ever get more) heavy fort armour is around 16k gold, but still stops 75% of all criticals.

I find that quite useful. Yes Heavy fort is better, but it also costs 20k more, which it will take two levels more to get.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: archangel.arcanis on January 12, 2011, 04:27:18 PM
AC's weakness is that it is irrelevant to most any form of attack other than archery and beat you with a stick.

the issue is that by mid to upper levels your opponents normally either have attacks that don't require attack rolls, are touch attacks which just made most of your AC go away anyway, or are huge melee monsters that require devoting most of your resources to getting AC high enough for them to have a chance at missing. That is on top of the fact that if you devote too much to defense you are no longer enough of a threat to the enemy for the to just ignore you until they have dealt with the other characters that are a threat.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: weenog on January 12, 2011, 04:32:10 PM
I thought AC was fairly good against the tear you apart with icky filthy giant claws attack form, too, if you had enough of it.  Isn't that the favorite trick of druids who want to do damage personally but aren't wasteful enough to blast, as well as plenty of monsters?

I understand that just being hard to kill is still pointless if it cost you being able to kill things back convincingly.  I don't think making yourself harder to kill with AC necessarily does that.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: archangel.arcanis on January 12, 2011, 04:47:13 PM
AC works until about mid levels where the rip your face off monsters have inflated HD (thus high BaB), and inflated strength (adding to attack and damage). So now to keep your AC high enough to provide a reasonable chance of them failing to hit you have to spend so many resources you can no longer reasonably pose a threat. At that point it is best to go glass cannon and kill them first.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Sunic_Flames on January 12, 2011, 04:55:10 PM
So trading away some AC (which you can get back, except it's irrelevant anyway so you needn't bother) for some damage reduction makes you take more damage, not less.

And I suppose if you do recover the sacrificed AC, so you have the AC and the damage reduction, you're taking more damage twice, once for AC that doesn't matter and once for damage reduction that doesn't matter.

Interesting.

Except that you don't actually do that at all, because you either have an AC of x and a DR of x - 5, or you have an AC of x - 5 and a DR of x. You can replace 5 with any other number you like, it does not change the fact anything with a 1:1 PA does the same damage, anything that PAs harder does more damage, and anything that is not a physical attack does the same damage. Therefore, you take the same or more damage in absolutely every single situation.

Next you will inform me that math is hard.

As for the value of AC, no it is not because of weenog's fail. It is because you can pop a 50% miss chance on the cheap, which has the same end effect as an AC good enough to only be hit on an 11 or better. But is much cheaper. So if you can't get yourself to the point where enemies hit even less often, you're better off ignoring it entirely, getting some miss chances, having the same or better defenses, and lots of spare cash.

Quote
Also, anything less than Heavy Fort is worthless.

Why do you think that?

I like medium fort at a +3 bonus; a +1 (who would ever get more) heavy fort armour is around 16k gold, but still stops 75% of all criticals.

I find that quite useful. Yes Heavy fort is better, but it also costs 20k more, which it will take two levels more to get.

Moderate Fort, you mean?

And aside from the fact you are getting it to stop luck from shafting you, not to make it do so less often and therefore sub 100% defeats the point? If the DM does not allow upgrading, Moderate Fort is wasted cash. If he does, the level at which you get Moderate Fort isn't that much closer than Heavy Fort, so there's still little point. The only D&D related context Moderate Fort is useful in is DDO, for Warforged characters. Mostly because they houseruled that 75% to stack with innate 25%. Therefore, you get the mandatory immunity 4 levels sooner, and also have more options as to how you get it. A common caster item has Moderate Fort as an incidental benefit, for example. So that's slot savings. But RAW, when discussing tabletop D&D? Forget it.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Jopustopin on January 12, 2011, 11:03:47 PM
I happen to be a fan of mithril mechanus gear, combined with Savnok's Tooth, and Energize armor. It's not scary effective, but for two feats you add +11 deflection, on a psywar/gish/lockdown build it ain't bad. Not a lot of mobility loss, either. Can't say I've used much heavy armor otherwise, except on the odd low-level cleric here and there.


How does mithril mechanus gear qualify for the feat deflective armor?  Wouldn't it be considered medium armor and thus not qualify?
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: The_Mad_Linguist on January 12, 2011, 11:05:25 PM
I happen to be a fan of mithril mechanus gear, combined with Savnok's Tooth, and Energize armor. It's not scary effective, but for two feats you add +11 deflection, on a psywar/gish/lockdown build it ain't bad. Not a lot of mobility loss, either. Can't say I've used much heavy armor otherwise, except on the odd low-level cleric here and there.


How does mithril mechanus gear qualify for the feat deflective armor?  Wouldn't it be considered medium armor and thus not qualify?
Go all the way, and get Thaalud stone armor(+12 AC).  From Anuroch, Empire of Shade, IIRC.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: X-Codes on January 12, 2011, 11:15:40 PM
AC works until about mid levels where the rip your face off monsters have inflated HD (thus high BaB), and inflated strength (adding to attack and damage). So now to keep your AC high enough to provide a reasonable chance of them failing to hit you have to spend so many resources you can no longer reasonably pose a threat. At that point it is best to go glass cannon and kill them first.
This is actually not very accurate at all.

Inflated HD, yes.  Inflated BAB, not so much.  Most types (including the most prominent rip-your-face-off types: animal, construct, elemental, giant, and vermin) give 3/4 BAB progression, so the wind up about on-par with a Fighter in that regard.  The types with full BAB like Dragons, Outsiders, Magical Beasts, and Monstrous Humanoids are more of a mixed bag.  Dragons in general have deflated CR, so let's not compare them; they're strong at what they do pretty much regardless of what it is.  The other three are more mixed bags.  You can check the summoning guides yourself for outsiders.  They tend to have HD pretty close to what their CR is with few outliers, including the bruisers.

Further, given that Power Attack is around, your goal isn't just to make them miss their top-BAB attack.  There are other ways that it mitigates damage in that the brutes can't just max-power attack you down, they have to hold back so their hit mod remains adequate.  Further, if there's even the slightest chance that the first attack can miss, then the 3rd and 4th attacks have a very high chance of missing, and each of those iterative attacks cause exactly the same amount of damage.  Making the last one miss is just as good as making the first one miss.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: snakeman830 on January 13, 2011, 01:50:32 AM
Further, given that Power Attack is around, your goal isn't just to make them miss their top-BAB attack.  There are other ways that it mitigates damage in that the brutes can't just max-power attack you down, they have to hold back so their hit mod remains adequate.  Further, if there's even the slightest chance that the first attack can miss, then the 3rd and 4th attacks have a very high chance of missing, and each of those iterative attacks cause exactly the same amount of damage.  Making the last one miss is just as good as making the first one miss.
Most bruisers use natural weapons, so the max penalty on any attack is -5 (and more often -2).  Armor Class has to be much higher to remain relevant at stopping, say, 50% of attacks.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: archangel.arcanis on January 13, 2011, 02:13:10 AM
AC works until about mid levels where the rip your face off monsters have inflated HD (thus high BaB), and inflated strength (adding to attack and damage). So now to keep your AC high enough to provide a reasonable chance of them failing to hit you have to spend so many resources you can no longer reasonably pose a threat. At that point it is best to go glass cannon and kill them first.
This is actually not very accurate at all.

Inflated HD, yes.  Inflated BAB, not so much.  Most types (including the most prominent rip-your-face-off types: animal, construct, elemental, giant, and vermin) give 3/4 BAB progression, so the wind up about on-par with a Fighter in that regard.  The types with full BAB like Dragons, Outsiders, Magical Beasts, and Monstrous Humanoids are more of a mixed bag.  Dragons in general have deflated CR, so let's not compare them; they're strong at what they do pretty much regardless of what it is.  The other three are more mixed bags.  You can check the summoning guides yourself for outsiders.  They tend to have HD pretty close to what their CR is with few outliers, including the bruisers.

Further, given that Power Attack is around, your goal isn't just to make them miss their top-BAB attack.  There are other ways that it mitigates damage in that the brutes can't just max-power attack you down, they have to hold back so their hit mod remains adequate.  Further, if there's even the slightest chance that the first attack can miss, then the 3rd and 4th attacks have a very high chance of missing, and each of those iterative attacks cause exactly the same amount of damage.  Making the last one miss is just as good as making the first one miss.
You ignored the fact that many of them are rather strong and as Snakeman pointed out most use natural weapons. A quick glance at just cr 8-9 animals from the SRD shows they have attacks in the neighborhood of +20
Constructs are all over the map for attack bonus, though Kolyarut's attack is a touch attack in addition to their spell likes.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: veekie on January 13, 2011, 04:14:22 AM
Further, given that Power Attack is around, your goal isn't just to make them miss their top-BAB attack.  There are other ways that it mitigates damage in that the brutes can't just max-power attack you down, they have to hold back so their hit mod remains adequate.  Further, if there's even the slightest chance that the first attack can miss, then the 3rd and 4th attacks have a very high chance of missing, and each of those iterative attacks cause exactly the same amount of damage.  Making the last one miss is just as good as making the first one miss.
Most bruisers use natural weapons, so the max penalty on any attack is -5 (and more often -2).  Armor Class has to be much higher to remain relevant at stopping, say, 50% of attacks.
So actually, conceptually speaking, DR IS better than AC as a defense.
DR that's too low still has an impact.

Thought experiment:
What happens if you convert all worn armors(any Armor bonuses from magic and enhancement bonuses to Armor is also converted) to DR 2/- per point of AC system-wide?
What if you do the same to Nat AC?
What if you then make spells that deal physical damage explicitly subject to DR?
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: The_Mad_Linguist on January 13, 2011, 04:20:58 AM
What if you then make spells that deal physical damage explicitly subject to DR?
Honestly, there really aren't enough of them to make much of a difference one way or another, balance-wise.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: X-Codes on January 13, 2011, 04:26:21 AM
You ignored the fact that many of them are rather strong and as Snakeman pointed out most use natural weapons. A quick glance at just cr 8-9 animals from the SRD shows they have attacks in the neighborhood of +20
Constructs are all over the map for attack bonus, though Kolyarut's attack is a touch attack in addition to their spell likes.
+6 armor, +4 shield, +3 natural (barkskin), +1-2 deflection (ring or Prot: Evil).  That's AC at around 25 already, and these are things that most people should be able to get access to for extended periods of time, even at level 6.  Then Dex and such comes into play.  It's not hard to break AC 30 at these levels, especially with a specialized defensive build.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: weenog on January 13, 2011, 05:39:43 AM
I think if you convert natural armor to DR /- and then double it, you'll probably wind up with a lot more martial types getting swallowed whole on purpose hoping they can sell their DM on the idea that a thick hide or whatever doesn't apply on the inside.

You'd probably also make that feat that turns your power attack into energy damage more attractive.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: snakeman830 on January 13, 2011, 10:59:14 AM
Further, given that Power Attack is around, your goal isn't just to make them miss their top-BAB attack.  There are other ways that it mitigates damage in that the brutes can't just max-power attack you down, they have to hold back so their hit mod remains adequate.  Further, if there's even the slightest chance that the first attack can miss, then the 3rd and 4th attacks have a very high chance of missing, and each of those iterative attacks cause exactly the same amount of damage.  Making the last one miss is just as good as making the first one miss.
Most bruisers use natural weapons, so the max penalty on any attack is -5 (and more often -2).  Armor Class has to be much higher to remain relevant at stopping, say, 50% of attacks.
So actually, conceptually speaking, DR IS better than AC as a defense.
DR that's too low still has an impact.

Thought experiment:
What happens if you convert all worn armors(any Armor bonuses from magic and enhancement bonuses to Armor is also converted) to DR 2/- per point of AC system-wide?
What if you do the same to Nat AC?
What if you then make spells that deal physical damage explicitly subject to DR?
You make Dragons untouchable by martial characters.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: archangel.arcanis on January 13, 2011, 11:24:59 AM
You ignored the fact that many of them are rather strong and as Snakeman pointed out most use natural weapons. A quick glance at just cr 8-9 animals from the SRD shows they have attacks in the neighborhood of +20
Constructs are all over the map for attack bonus, though Kolyarut's attack is a touch attack in addition to their spell likes.
+6 armor, +4 shield, +3 natural (barkskin), +1-2 deflection (ring or Prot: Evil).  That's AC at around 25 already, and these are things that most people should be able to get access to for extended periods of time, even at level 6.  Then Dex and such comes into play.  It's not hard to break AC 30 at these levels, especially with a specialized defensive build.
You have just made my point. No it isn't hard to do it but you still have to devote a lot of resources to it. And that is just to defend against Monster beatsticks and does nothing to help against those who rely on touch attacks or spells.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Waazraath on January 13, 2011, 01:31:22 PM
You ignored the fact that many of them are rather strong and as Snakeman pointed out most use natural weapons. A quick glance at just cr 8-9 animals from the SRD shows they have attacks in the neighborhood of +20
Constructs are all over the map for attack bonus, though Kolyarut's attack is a touch attack in addition to their spell likes.
+6 armor, +4 shield, +3 natural (barkskin), +1-2 deflection (ring or Prot: Evil).  That's AC at around 25 already, and these are things that most people should be able to get access to for extended periods of time, even at level 6.  Then Dex and such comes into play.  It's not hard to break AC 30 at these levels, especially with a specialized defensive build.
You have just made my point. No it isn't hard to do it but you still have to devote a lot of resources to it. And that is just to defend against Monster beatsticks and does nothing to help against those who rely on touch attacks or spells.

Dunno if it's that hard... lets take a lowly tier 5 melee fighter like the paladin... let him cast luminous armor (effectively +4 ac against melee, incl. touch attacks) and law devotion, which is a decent feat for pally's also offensively, and you're already at 32... that's not even a 'specialized' build, just cost 1 spell (duration 1hour/lvl) and 1 feat that is beneficial in other ways then just +AC.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Aliment on January 13, 2011, 01:46:16 PM
I think that's the biggest issue here.  Yeah other defenses are better than AC, but that doesn't mean that AC is horrible.  It just needs to scale a little better.  And casters should have to rely more on positioning (I'm not talking about flying) for defense.

I never bother using Power Attack on monsters because it either winds up killing your players or not doing any damage.

Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: X-Codes on January 13, 2011, 03:42:03 PM
You ignored the fact that many of them are rather strong and as Snakeman pointed out most use natural weapons. A quick glance at just cr 8-9 animals from the SRD shows they have attacks in the neighborhood of +20
Constructs are all over the map for attack bonus, though Kolyarut's attack is a touch attack in addition to their spell likes.
+6 armor, +4 shield, +3 natural (barkskin), +1-2 deflection (ring or Prot: Evil).  That's AC at around 25 already, and these are things that most people should be able to get access to for extended periods of time, even at level 6.  Then Dex and such comes into play.  It's not hard to break AC 30 at these levels, especially with a specialized defensive build.
You have just made my point. No it isn't hard to do it but you still have to devote a lot of resources to it. And that is just to defend against Monster beatsticks and does nothing to help against those who rely on touch attacks or spells.
No, a defensive build is going to have something in the neighborhood of 35+, and that's mostly in terms of defensive magic items, anyway, not feats.  You could put it all together on a Dungeoncrasher Fighter 6, especially if there's a Druid in the party for a Barkskin buff.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Lycanthromancer on January 13, 2011, 03:44:47 PM
The problem with AC is that a +1 to attack renders a +1 to AC useless (and let's not talk about nat 20s), whereas two 20% miss chances and a 50% miss chance require so much more to overcome.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: X-Codes on January 13, 2011, 03:49:03 PM
The problem with AC is that a +1 to attack renders a +1 to AC useless (and let's not talk about nat 20s), whereas two 20% miss chances and a 50% miss chance require so much more to overcome.
And a +1 to AC likewise renders a +1 to attack useless, whereas two 20% miss chances and a 50% miss chance aren't that easy to obtain on a character.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Lycanthromancer on January 13, 2011, 03:52:57 PM
The problem with AC is that a +1 to attack renders a +1 to AC useless (and let's not talk about nat 20s), whereas two 20% miss chances and a 50% miss chance require so much more to overcome.
And a +1 to AC likewise renders a +1 to attack useless, whereas two 20% miss chances and a 50% miss chance aren't that easy to obtain on a character.
Not for a spellcaster they aren't. Mirror image (yeah, not technically a miss chance, but there's still only a 1-in-X chance of hitting you) plus blink plus, say, concealing amorpha. Spell-to-power erudites for the win.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Sunic_Flames on January 13, 2011, 03:54:01 PM
I'm noticing a lot of people assuming a DRUID has nothing better to do than prop up a FIGHTER. Am I still on BG?
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Lycanthromancer on January 13, 2011, 03:55:23 PM
I'm noticing a lot of people assuming a DRUID has nothing better to do than prop up a FIGHTER. Am I still on BG?
I don't know WHAT you're hyped up on.

But the fighter might just be useful if the druid turns him into a dire bear or something.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Bloody Initiate on January 13, 2011, 03:58:52 PM
The problem with AC is that a +1 to attack renders a +1 to AC useless (and let's not talk about nat 20s), whereas two 20% miss chances and a 50% miss chance require so much more to overcome.
And a +1 to AC likewise renders a +1 to attack useless, whereas two 20% miss chances and a 50% miss chance aren't that easy to obtain on a character.

They're not that hard, you just have to focus on them to find them.

The problem is that Wizards did everything in such a way that you are tricked into focusing on AC (Because ways to increase it ARE much more numerous). Then they made monsters that completely eclipse it.

When I first came to BG I saw a bunch of people saying "AC is useless" all over the place and I didn't understand why (I play primarily low-level campaigns). Then I was perusing the Epic Level Handbook for the first time when I saw it: "+99 melee" is the attack bonus for one of the epic constructs. This same thing can be seen in lesser numbers all over the place.

They hand you a shiny set of armor and then sick rust monsters on you. They tell you to get your AC up and then they design things that are SUPPOSED to auto-hit in order to make them seem more menacing. They built the characters and the basis for characters (Clear rules for all actions in melee), and then designed the monsters to trump the characters so that the world would look dangerous.

They hold all martial characters to a strict standard of balance, and make no such effort on casters because "it's magic."

The magic stuff is where they did all their imagining. They did all their rule-making on mundanes.

It's a little maddening really, but I'm getting off-topic.

Either way, Gygax would be proud. Much of the D&D population aren't into casters, so they are routinely assfucked by his game.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Littha on January 13, 2011, 05:45:21 PM
For some reason after reading this thread I want to play a Nymph Battledancer 2/Mystic Wanderer 1/Duskblade 1/Arcane Duelist 2/Monk 1 with Ascetic Mage just so i can have CHA to AC 5 times...
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: X-Codes on January 13, 2011, 10:40:02 PM
I'm noticing a lot of people assuming a DRUID has nothing better to do than prop up a FIGHTER. Am I still on BG?
Hi Welcome

The "Fighter" (note that it doesn't, specifically, have to be a Fighter, it can also be a Knight, Duskblade, Crusader, Warblade...) can buy a Pearl of Power II for 4k and give it to the druid (or Archivist or Spirit Shaman or Ranger or anyone with the Plant domain) and get level-appropriate enhancement bonuses to Natural Armor for the remainder of their career, and it costs said caster NOTHING.  In fact, if said "Fighter" eats it later in their career, the caster likely winds up with a free 2nd-level slot.

Also note that not everyone is a douchebag like you, and the Druid might be out there buffing his allies instead of himself, given how it's really not that hard for a druid to rock out with Wild Shape, even unbuffed.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Bauglir on January 14, 2011, 12:31:35 AM
I'm noticing a lot of people assuming a DRUID has nothing better to do than prop up a FIGHTER. Am I still on BG?

Also, if it's a given that there is a Fighter or whatever in the party, then that is a tool the Druid has to work with. It's not necessarily stupid to make that tool effective. Well, less ineffective. It depends on the specific spells you're using and the slots you have available of that level to determine the relative opportunity costs of saving the slot vs buffing the Fighter-type, but it's definitely not automatically failure.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: veekie on January 14, 2011, 12:38:48 AM
^^
Yeah, a Fighter is like an animal companion, except it comes with free gear.
Just toss a few buffs on top, and he even pays for them himself.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Bauglir on January 14, 2011, 12:44:12 AM
^^
Yeah, a Fighter is like an animal companion, except it comes with free gear.
Just toss a few buffs on top, and he even pays for them himself.

That's a good way of thinking of it. And the Druid didn't even need to use a class feature, either! Really, it's a pretty good deal. For the Druid. For the Fighter-type, whose entire character build works out to being an accessory for the Druid, perhaps not so much. Especially since Fighters are about as disposable as animal companions.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: The_Mad_Linguist on January 14, 2011, 12:47:27 AM
But hey, you can always saddle the fighter with +8 LA of templates if he's really underperforming.

I'm sure a celestial anarchic infernal axiomatic fighter will be a great member of your group.

Or at least k_v's group.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: JaronK on January 14, 2011, 01:00:48 AM
Especially since Fighters are about as disposable as animal companions.

More so.  When your animal companion dies, you get nothing.  When the Fighter dies, you get a huge amount of free loot!

JaronK
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Bozwevial on January 14, 2011, 01:05:04 AM
So the optimal strategy is to kill the fighter right away in case his loot gets damaged?
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: juton on January 14, 2011, 01:42:30 AM
Guys, we have to remember that most of the time D&D is PvE not PvP. If you are a kind soul then you want everyone to have fun, so casters will spend a few buffs to help out the spell-deprived, even if that's not the most optimal thing. If using your spells as buffs on the beatsticks still helps you win fights even if it isn't as efficient as a SoD then it's not a waste.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: JaronK on January 14, 2011, 02:04:47 AM
So the optimal strategy is to kill the fighter right away in case his loot gets damaged?

Nah, the DM will catch on if you make it look like it was on purpose.

JaronK
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: X-Codes on January 14, 2011, 02:24:40 AM
Guys, we have to remember that most of the time D&D is PvE not PvP. If you are a kind soul then you want everyone to have fun, so casters will spend a few buffs to help out the spell-deprived, even if that's not the most optimal thing. If using your spells as buffs on the beatsticks still helps you win fights even if it isn't as efficient as a SoD then it's not a waste.
Actually, it is optimal for the casters to throw their buffs on the non-casters when possible for a few reasons:

1) Action Economy.  The beatsticks are going to go right into the fray while the casters take their time buffing.  If the buffs go onto the beatsticks instead of the casters, then their effects are going to be applied a few rounds earlier.

2) Chassis.  No matter what, the Fighter has more HP, BAB, and Strength than the Wizard, and if the Wizard is using their XP as a resource then he might even have an extra HD or two.  What's more, the Fighter's feats and abilities are going to be geared towards combat as opposed to the Wizard's being geared towards spellcasting.  As a result of this, it's always going to be more effective throwing Haste, Polymorph, and Greater Heroism on the Fighter than it will on the Wizard (although with Haste you don't even have to choose anymore).

3) Being God.  While bending the time-space continuum over and pounding it until it cries for mercy is certainly doable in melee, it's much easier and safer to do so while out of the fray.  As such, you're just not going to use most of your buffs yourself, but rather you'd be much better off standing back, keeping an eye on the big picture, and then using this vantage point to summon Cuthulu down in just the right spot to win the game.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: The_Mad_Linguist on January 14, 2011, 02:33:16 AM
2) Chassis.  No matter what, the Fighter has more HP, BAB, and Strength than the Wizard,
Barring shenanigans, of course.  With enough shenanigans I'm pretty sure you can win in all three while retaining ninth level spells.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: X-Codes on January 14, 2011, 02:37:00 AM
2) Chassis.  No matter what, the Fighter has more HP, BAB, and Strength than the Wizard,
Barring shenanigans, of course.  With enough shenanigans I'm pretty sure you can win in all three while retaining ninth level spells.
Even with shenanigans, you have to start with Wizard (or maybe Bard).  That pretty much automatically puts you behind the Fighter right from the start.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Benly on January 14, 2011, 03:04:34 AM
2) Chassis.  No matter what, the Fighter has more HP, BAB, and Strength than the Wizard,
Barring shenanigans, of course.  With enough shenanigans I'm pretty sure you can win in all three while retaining ninth level spells.

But the better your spellcasting, the more strongly #3 applies - the fighter's not going to be doing anything better with his actions, and you can.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: The_Mad_Linguist on January 14, 2011, 03:30:18 AM
2) Chassis.  No matter what, the Fighter has more HP, BAB, and Strength than the Wizard,
Barring shenanigans, of course.  With enough shenanigans I'm pretty sure you can win in all three while retaining ninth level spells.
Even with shenanigans, you have to start with Wizard (or maybe Bard).  That pretty much automatically puts you behind the Fighter right from the start.
Let me put my monkey where my mouth is.

Let's take Meepun, the curious little white dragonspawn ice-dwelling desert* kobold.  Now, meepun hasn't heard of soverign archewhats, so he isn't going to use them.  He's going to use some very rancid (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4804.0) (but very RAW) cheese instead.

Build Breakdown
ECL2:Sorc 1 (BAB3) + level of sorc from white dragonspawn.  Feats: Expeditious Dodge, lesser draconic rite, dragonwrought
ECL3:Cleric 1 (BAB9).  ACF everything you can here.
ECL4:Singer Of Concordance 2 (BAB10) (buying off white dragonspawn).  Burn a feat on combat casting.  At some point, pick up iron will via otyugh hole.
ECL5:Dragonslayer 1 (BAB11).  Casting as a fifth level sorc here.
ECL6-11:Abjurant Champion (BAB16).  Pick up greater draconic rite, cast as a twelfth level sorc.  Possibly buyoff more dragonspawn, depending upon which version you're using
ECL12: Spellsword 1 (BAB 17)
ECL13+: Whatever you want, really.  As long as you don't dip excessively, you should be able to keep it up indefinitely


Either that, or artificer + renegade mastermaker + cleric buff abuse.

But yeah.  Shenanigans.  Not something I'd actually use.  :D

*Fun fact: Antarctica is virtually all considered a desert.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: X-Codes on January 14, 2011, 05:36:48 AM
Ah, that.  I never read that thread because of how strange the concept itself sounded.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Bauglir on January 14, 2011, 10:42:23 AM
The above build should never cast Divine Power.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: snakeman830 on January 14, 2011, 11:30:19 AM
The above build should never cast Divine Power.
Because it would actually be a debuff :p

Just reminding you: the Lesser Draconic Rite is not a feat.  It's something that any Kobold can get for 100gp and 1hp.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Sunic_Flames on January 14, 2011, 11:55:32 AM
I'm noticing a lot of people assuming a DRUID has nothing better to do than prop up a FIGHTER. Am I still on BG?
Hi Welcome

The "Fighter" (note that it doesn't, specifically, have to be a Fighter, it can also be a Knight, Duskblade, Crusader, Warblade...) can buy a Pearl of Power II for 4k and give it to the druid (or Archivist or Spirit Shaman or Ranger or anyone with the Plant domain) and get level-appropriate enhancement bonuses to Natural Armor for the remainder of their career, and it costs said caster NOTHING.  In fact, if said "Fighter" eats it later in their career, the caster likely winds up with a free 2nd-level slot.

Also note that not everyone is a douchebag like you, and the Druid might be out there buffing his allies instead of himself, given how it's really not that hard for a druid to rock out with Wild Shape, even unbuffed.

Wait, what level were we talking about again? Like 5? 7?

And because as we all know, 50-70 minutes = the whole day.

And if there's a DRUID in the party, melee is well taken care of.

^^
Yeah, a Fighter is like an animal companion, except it comes with free gear.
Just toss a few buffs on top, and he even pays for them himself.

He costs you gear and XP. Your pussy (or bitch, or whatever other humorous double entredre could be used to describe your animal companion) does not.

Guys, we have to remember that most of the time D&D is PvE not PvP. If you are a kind soul then you want everyone to have fun, so casters will spend a few buffs to help out the spell-deprived, even if that's not the most optimal thing. If using your spells as buffs on the beatsticks still helps you win fights even if it isn't as efficient as a SoD then it's not a waste.
Actually, it is optimal for the casters to throw their buffs on the non-casters when possible for a few reasons:

1) Action Economy.  The beatsticks are going to go right into the fray while the casters take their time buffing.  If the buffs go onto the beatsticks instead of the casters, then their effects are going to be applied a few rounds earlier.

2) Chassis.  No matter what, the Fighter has more HP, BAB, and Strength than the Wizard, and if the Wizard is using their XP as a resource then he might even have an extra HD or two.  What's more, the Fighter's feats and abilities are going to be geared towards combat as opposed to the Wizard's being geared towards spellcasting.  As a result of this, it's always going to be more effective throwing Haste, Polymorph, and Greater Heroism on the Fighter than it will on the Wizard (although with Haste you don't even have to choose anymore).

3) Being God.  While bending the time-space continuum over and pounding it until it cries for mercy is certainly doable in melee, it's much easier and safer to do so while out of the fray.  As such, you're just not going to use most of your buffs yourself, but rather you'd be much better off standing back, keeping an eye on the big picture, and then using this vantage point to summon Cuthulu down in just the right spot to win the game.

Action Economy doesn't matter because you aren't buffing in combat.

HP are gone in two rounds tops without real defenses. One class has them, one does not.

BAB is a quite meaningless stat, even if you ignore that a casting class can still get plenty of it.

Polymorph sets your Str to a certain value, regardless of what it actually is. So best case is it makes no difference who you throw it on. But making 8 Str 39 does more than making 25 Str 39.

And GH just isn't worth casting at all, on anyone.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: snakeman830 on January 14, 2011, 12:37:09 PM
And if there's a DRUID in the party, melee is well taken care of.

I have to say that my last D&D session, this became quite apparent.  I'm playing a Goliath Warblade/Bloodstorm Blade and one my my party members is a dwarf druid.  Last night, his hp total surpassed my own (although him having gotten an 18 on his roll for Con and me getting a 14 isn't helping much) and he can spend all day in animal form.  However, I don't mind because oddly enough, we basically swapped battlefield positions in one level.  Now he's on the front lines and I'm between foes and our Sorcerer, using Lightning Ricochet and Knock Back + Shock Trooper to keep the foes at bay.  When I need to charge in to the front, I can now dish out significant damage as I do so, relying on Wall of Blades to protect me that round.  So, even though I am no longer the primary melee, I still have a good niche.

My AC is also in the pits because my best sword (I have two others) gives me -2 AC and if I go for pure damage, Punishing Stance kicks in for another penalty.  I only have an AC of 17 to start.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Sunic_Flames on January 14, 2011, 01:16:02 PM
Not to mention the game I am playing the Hi Welcome build in. Though something tells me that one will never actually get to the point where we start doing things as a group of PCs.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: The_Mad_Linguist on January 14, 2011, 01:53:21 PM
The above build should never cast Divine Power.
Because it would actually be a debuff :p

Just reminding you: the Lesser Draconic Rite is not a feat.  It's something that any Kobold can get for 100gp and 1hp.
Well, yeah. It's the draconic reservoir feat you need to take for the greater rite.  whatever.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: PlzBreakMyCampaign on January 14, 2011, 06:32:21 PM
Go all the way, and get Thaalud stone armor(+12 AC).  From Anuroch, Empire of Shade, IIRC.
Didn't see it in the appendix. Page?
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: The_Mad_Linguist on January 14, 2011, 07:38:24 PM
Go all the way, and get Thaalud stone armor(+12 AC).  From Anuroch, Empire of Shade, IIRC.
Didn't see it in the appendix. Page?
108.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: X-Codes on January 14, 2011, 10:33:37 PM
Wait, what level were we talking about again? Like 5? 7?

And because as we all know, 50-70 minutes = the whole day.

And if there's a DRUID in the party, melee is well taken care of.
A battle tends to last half a minute minute, tops.  Therefore Barkskin can, in theory, last 100-140 battles.  How many encounters is a group supposed to have on a given day, again?  I remember you bitching excessively about that on another thread.

He costs you gear and XP. Your pussy (or bitch, or whatever other humorous double entredre could be used to describe your animal companion) does not.
It's gear and XP you would never get in the first place, because there'd still be a player at the table playing something.

Action Economy doesn't matter because you aren't buffing in combat.
What, you win every initiative roll and never get ambushed?  The DM plays the monsters retarded and has them continue circle-jerking each other while your spellcasters start shouting out nonsense before ambushing them?  Most buffs have minutes of duration or less.

HP are gone in two rounds tops without real defenses. One class has them, one does not.
The enemy only able to hit you on a roll of 15 or better is better than being able to hit you on a 2 or better with a 50% miss chance.

BAB is a quite meaningless stat, even if you ignore that a casting class can still get plenty of it.
BAB means the Fighters hit better than the Wizards, period.

Polymorph sets your Str to a certain value, regardless of what it actually is. So best case is it makes no difference who you throw it on. But making 8 Str 39 does more than making 25 Str 39.
You're bitching about Barkskin lasting 50-70 minutes, and yet come back and say that Fighters suck because of Polymorph?  Polymorph's duration is 1 minute/level.  I don't care how many of them you have prepared, they're not lasting all day, either.  Hi Fucking Welcome

And GH just isn't worth casting at all, on anyone.
Immunity to fear.  Hi Welcome
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Runestar on January 15, 2011, 02:13:45 AM
Quote
Immunity to fear.  Hi Welcome

Which is typically covered by heroes' feast (benefiting the whole party, as well as poison immunity) for a longer period of time.  :)
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: X-Codes on January 15, 2011, 04:44:33 AM
Quote
Immunity to fear.  Hi Welcome

Which is typically covered by heroes' feast (benefiting the whole party, as well as poison immunity) for a longer period of time.  :)
Meh, fine.  I was annoyed by the whole Barkskin is too short to be useful, but Polymorph makes Fighters suck argument.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Endarire on January 15, 2011, 05:49:39 AM
Polymorph will likely show up the Fighter or someone who relies almost exclusively on autoattacking.  Suddenly turning into an X-headed (pyro/cryo)hydra or some Big Nasty can easily end a fight.

Now you need more polymorph to do this all day.  If you can (like draconic polymorph + Incantatrix + Persist), then so be it.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: X-Codes on January 15, 2011, 06:18:27 AM
Polymorph will likely show up the Fighter or someone who relies almost exclusively on autoattacking.  Suddenly turning into an X-headed (pyro/cryo)hydra or some Big Nasty can easily end a fight.

Now you need more polymorph to do this all day.  If you can (like draconic polymorph + Incantatrix + Persist), then so be it.
I'm not saying it won't, but the specific argument that Barkskin is a waste of effort because of it's short duration simultaneously combined with an argument that Polymorph makes Fighters obsolete (hint: it doesn't, Polymorph the Fighter instead, he'll have more HP and hit better) is ridiculous.

Persistent Draconic Polymorph is, however, pretty ridiculous.  That and a battery of other awesome personal-range buffs is a pretty damn big problem with spellcasters.  If said buffs were touch-range, then I think we would have a use for melee-types at high levels despite the fact that they're not inverting reality.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Solo on January 15, 2011, 06:22:19 AM
How does the fighter get more HP? He might regain some HP, but his total HP count shouldn't change.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: X-Codes on January 15, 2011, 06:28:38 AM
How does the fighter get more HP? He might regain some HP, but his total HP count shouldn't change.

Higher HD, likely higher Con, and probably some manner of Con-boosting ability like Rage.  This all can easily add up to an extra 6-7 HP per HD relative to a Wizard.

I know HP isn't granted by Polymorph, but the Fighter has substantially more to begin with.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: skydragonknight on January 15, 2011, 07:07:22 AM
How does the fighter get more HP? He might regain some HP, but his total HP count shouldn't change.

Higher HD, likely higher Con, and probably some manner of Con-boosting ability like Rage.  This all can easily add up to an extra 6-7 HP per HD relative to a Wizard.

I know HP isn't granted by Polymorph, but the Fighter has substantially more to begin with.

Also BAB and feats like Power Attack, which allows them to make the best use of the form's high Strength score. Plus, they can be in melee instead of you, which means they can be the bait while you sit back and toss spells at leisure. What's wrong with that?
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: X-Codes on January 15, 2011, 07:31:02 AM
How does the fighter get more HP? He might regain some HP, but his total HP count shouldn't change.

Higher HD, likely higher Con, and probably some manner of Con-boosting ability like Rage.  This all can easily add up to an extra 6-7 HP per HD relative to a Wizard.

I know HP isn't granted by Polymorph, but the Fighter has substantially more to begin with.

Also BAB and feats like Power Attack, which allows them to make the best use of the form's high Strength score. Plus, they can be in melee instead of you, which means they can be the bait while you sit back and toss spells at leisure. What's wrong with that?
Fighters make Sunic derp rage, that's what's wrong with it.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Sunic_Flames on January 15, 2011, 11:06:25 AM
Wait, what level were we talking about again? Like 5? 7?

And because as we all know, 50-70 minutes = the whole day.

And if there's a DRUID in the party, melee is well taken care of.
A battle tends to last half a minute minute, tops.  Therefore Barkskin can, in theory, last 100-140 battles.  How many encounters is a group supposed to have on a given day, again?  I remember you bitching excessively about that on another thread.

It's shorter than that. The problem is the time between fights. Which there are ways around, but not if everyone is too busy propping up the gimp to be useful themselves.

Quote
It's gear and XP you would never get in the first place, because there'd still be a player at the table playing something.

And the alternatives would earn their keep.

Quote
What, you win every initiative roll and never get ambushed?  The DM plays the monsters retarded and has them continue circle-jerking each other while your spellcasters start shouting out nonsense before ambushing them?  Most buffs have minutes of duration or less.

If you can help it, yes you win every init roll. But either way you do not buff in combat, as that's actions not spent winning the fight. Once you force the enemy to play defense, you win. Except that it is you playing defense. Guess what that means?

Quote
The enemy only able to hit you on a roll of 15 or better is better than being able to hit you on a 2 or better with a 50% miss chance.

Now, if only you could actually do that. But since that requires AC of 25 at 5, 40-45 at 10, 55-60 at 15, and 75 at 20 you cannot. At least not without Turtle Fail, and likely even with it. Also, that 50% miss chance helps with other things. The AC does not.

Quote
BAB means the Fighters hit better than the Wizards, period.

Hi Welcome

Try again, this time with less fail.

Quote
You're bitching about Barkskin lasting 50-70 minutes, and yet come back and say that Fighters suck because of Polymorph?  Polymorph's duration is 1 minute/level.  I don't care how many of them you have prepared, they're not lasting all day, either.  Hi Fucking Welcome

No you mouth breathing fuckwit, I am pointing out that it does not matter who you cast Polymorph on since it is stat replacement, not stat buffing. And I actually used 39 as the example, which means Draconic Polymorph. What I forgot to mention is that since Draconic Polymorph is self only, the actual choice is between giving himself a 39 Str instead of 8, or giving the Fighter a 31 Str instead of... 25...

Also, mouth breathing fuckwit. The tactics that let you use short duration buffs to your advantage? They work fine when the group had a solid strategy. Make the gimp suck less is not solid strategy.

Did I mention Draconic Polymorph is a valid Persist target? So if you actually care about beatsticking, and you really shouldn't you have Str 39 (and Con 33), not counting items and other spells all day.

And GH just isn't worth casting at all, on anyone.
Immunity to fear.  Hi Welcome
[/quote]

Heroes' Feast. Same spell level, affects the entire party, lasts far longer, and also does other things.

Hi Welcome

How does the fighter get more HP? He might regain some HP, but his total HP count shouldn't change.

Higher HD, likely higher Con, and probably some manner of Con-boosting ability like Rage.  This all can easily add up to an extra 6-7 HP per HD relative to a Wizard.

I know HP isn't granted by Polymorph, but the Fighter has substantially more to begin with.

Higher HD makes a marginal difference, and not a large one, unless you are using max HP houserules.
His Con is the same or lower. More likely the latter, due to being MAD, not being able to craft, and having a lot more gear needs. Rage deaths do not help the beatstick's case.

Now if by 6-7 you actually mean more like 0-1 you are correct. Because the base difference is 3 HP/level, and then you remember the Wizard is SAD and therefore has a better Con, is able to craft and therefore has a better Con item, and doesn't need too many other items so he has a better Con item.

Even without throwing in things like Wraithstrike, Heroics (for those feats you think are so awesome, but really aren't), Bite of the Werebear (lol 55 Str), or all the other things that shove it to beatsticks, beatsticks just aren't that good, so they're showed up very very easily by real classes, who can casually pull off kiddie shit like beatsticking, and do things that actually matter.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: raith0 on January 15, 2011, 12:04:37 PM
So i know this is a debate about the point of non light armors.  and if they succeed at that point.  but the underliying problem at why they dont is you can/have to do alot with magic.  either casting or using items to keep up. 

and to have the numbers listed by sunic no matter how accurate they are.  ( granted i believe they are close to being correct) you have to use spells.  i have had characters that were very with defense but also had average or better offense for the level in question as well.  granted they didnt have the super AC of a pure defense build or the offense of a pure offensive build but they could compete with like level challanges and even solo most.  even solo an encounter a bit over there head.  granted all of them were different types of gish builds but they were at least melee heavy builds in one way or another.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Littha on January 15, 2011, 12:05:01 PM
Quote
BAB means the Fighters hit better than the Wizards, period.

I am thinking of a spell....
It begins with W and ends with raithstrike.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: weenog on January 15, 2011, 12:15:31 PM
How is wraithstrike impressive at all in the ideal fantasy world where nobody bothers with AC because it's useless, and instead concentrates on miss chance and the like?
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Littha on January 15, 2011, 12:28:11 PM
How is wraithstrike impressive at all in the ideal fantasy world where nobody bothers with AC because it's useless, and instead concentrates on miss chance and the like?

It would be one of the reasons that miss chance is useless.

Also, True Seeing.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: weenog on January 15, 2011, 12:43:10 PM
Maybe the old memory's failing from 3 days of no sleep, and I'm AFB.

Remind me, isn't Wraithstrike the one where you attack as if you were making incorporeal touch attacks for 1 round?
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Littha on January 15, 2011, 12:52:35 PM
Maybe the old memory's failing from 3 days of no sleep, and I'm AFB.

Remind me, isn't Wraithstrike the one where you attack as if you were making incorporeal touch attacks for 1 round?

yes, swift action casting time.

note that it is a second level spell... so it can actually be persisted legally.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: snakeman830 on January 15, 2011, 01:28:45 PM
Maybe the old memory's failing from 3 days of no sleep, and I'm AFB.

Remind me, isn't Wraithstrike the one where you attack as if you were making incorporeal touch attacks for 1 round?
Fixed for you.

It doesn't help against miss chances, but since most AC comes from things that touch attacks ignore...
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: awaken DM golem on January 15, 2011, 04:23:29 PM
(late to the table)


I though Medium Armor
was to convince Wizards that 8th level spells suck,
and to keep Druids from taking Natural Spell feat.

I though Heavy Armor
was to convince Wizards that 9th level spells suck,
and to make Monks useless.
Oh wait ...  :rollseyes
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: X-Codes on January 15, 2011, 05:54:46 PM
Quote
BAB means the Fighters hit better than the Wizards, period.

I am thinking of a spell....
It begins with W and ends with raithstrike.
If AC is useless then Wraithstrike is useless.  In fact, every spell giving a bonus to attack rolls is useless unless it boosts BAB as well, because BAB = Power Attack = Damage.  Wizards only get one of those, and it takes away their Spellcasting.  Therefore, if AC is useless then BAB means the Fighters hit better than the Wizards, period.

Also, anything True Seeing can do, Mindsight can do better.  Mindsight is easily attainable through any one of a battery of dips/grafts/spells + 1 feat, and completely negates invisibility, displacement, mirror image, and arguably half of blink.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: ninjarabbit on January 15, 2011, 06:00:16 PM
Wraithstrike is nice because lots of monsters have natural armor.

Of course if you can cast wraithstrike you can likely cast dispel magic (or any variant of it) so you can strip away many magical defenses that create a miss chance.

Long story short magic wins DnD.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: X-Codes on January 15, 2011, 06:12:57 PM
Long story short magic wins DnD.
Not arguing that, just sick of Sunic shooting down my arguments for a particular reason, and then making his own arguments that can be shot down for the exact same reason.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Sunic_Flames on January 15, 2011, 06:38:05 PM
Hi Welcome

X-Codes is still wrong.

And to the clown that thinks Fighters are better melees than Wizards, 55 Str War Troll says Hi Welcome as well.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: JaronK on January 15, 2011, 06:44:58 PM
And to the clown that thinks Fighters are better melees than Wizards, 55 Str War Troll says Hi Welcome as well.

He's saying that, given the same buffs, fighters (small f, he's using Barbarians too) are better melees than Wizards due to better BAB (and higher stats, though that only applies when not using polymorph).  I'd say the feats ought to help too... and he's right.  A Lion Totem Barbarian/Fighter with Shock Trooper and Leap Attack is going to be much better in melee with the same buffs than a Wizard... and if made well, he should be much better than anything the Wizard can summon too due to the terrible feats most summoned stuff has.  While certain self only buffs (and with certain builds sharing spells with your familiar) mess with this equation, in the general case he's correct.

JaronK
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: ninjarabbit on January 15, 2011, 07:07:47 PM
But then again wizards have better things to do than to go into melee. Self-buffing to make yourself a combat monster generally isn't the best use of resources, I'll agree that it's generally better to buff the BSFs instead and focus on other areas like battlefield control to maximize the wizard's and overall party's effectiveness.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Barbarossa on January 15, 2011, 07:37:30 PM
It's shorter than that. The problem is the time between fights. Which there are ways around, but not if everyone is too busy propping up the gimp to be useful themselves.

...

And the alternatives would earn their keep.
I think you would be a terrible person to try and play a game with. "You can't play because you don't agree with me!" will not help you make friends with your group.

As far as wizards always becoming a better melee fighter than the melee fighters, I'm working on a build right now to challenge that notion. In the meantime, gaze upon the Hulking Hurler and despair.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Lycanthromancer on January 15, 2011, 07:44:57 PM
In the meantime, gaze upon the Hulking Hurler and despair.
We already do, friend. We already do.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Maat_Mons on January 15, 2011, 07:52:13 PM
Also, anything True Seeing can do, Mindsight can do better.  Mindsight is easily attainable through any one of a battery of dips/grafts/spells + 1 feat, and completely negates invisibility, displacement, mirror image, and arguably half of blink.

Mindsight tells you what square a creature is in, but doesn't let you see it.  The feat specifically says invisible creatures still have total concealment.  I don't see how it helps against displacement or mirror image at all. 
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Lycanthromancer on January 15, 2011, 07:58:15 PM
Also, anything True Seeing can do, Mindsight can do better.  Mindsight is easily attainable through any one of a battery of dips/grafts/spells + 1 feat, and completely negates invisibility, displacement, mirror image, and arguably half of blink.

Mindsight tells you what square a creature is in, but doesn't let you see it.  The feat specifically says invisible creatures still have total concealment.  I don't see how it helps against displacement or mirror image at all. 
It can help against mirror image because your images can be in adjacent spaces (both to themselves and to you). If they're all in the same space, though, not so much.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: The_Mad_Linguist on January 15, 2011, 08:34:04 PM
Mirror image fails when they pull out a 1 sp pint of oil and deal some nonmagical area fire damage.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: lans on January 16, 2011, 01:18:28 AM
Wait, what level were we talking about again? Like 5? 7?

And because as we all know, 50-70 minutes = the whole day.

And if there's a DRUID in the party, melee is well taken care of.
A battle tends to last half a minute minute, tops.  Therefore Barkskin can, in theory, last 100-140 battles.  How many encounters is a group supposed to have on a given day, again?  I remember you bitching excessively about that on another thread.

It's shorter than that. The problem is the time between fights. Which there are ways around, but not if everyone is too busy propping up the gimp to be useful themselves.

Quote
It's gear and XP you would never get in the first place, because there'd still be a player at the table playing something.

And the alternatives would earn their keep.
Counterpoint: You get to keep there stuff when they die?

Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Sunic_Flames on January 16, 2011, 09:21:01 AM
And to the clown that thinks Fighters are better melees than Wizards, 55 Str War Troll says Hi Welcome as well.

He's saying that, given the same buffs, fighters (small f, he's using Barbarians too) are better melees than Wizards due to better BAB (and higher stats, though that only applies when not using polymorph).  I'd say the feats ought to help too... and he's right.  A Lion Totem Barbarian/Fighter with Shock Trooper and Leap Attack is going to be much better in melee with the same buffs than a Wizard... and if made well, he should be much better than anything the Wizard can summon too due to the terrible feats most summoned stuff has.  While certain self only buffs (and with certain builds sharing spells with your familiar) mess with this equation, in the general case he's correct.

JaronK

Well first of all, you don't get the same buffs because the best buffs are self only. Second, BAB is quite a meaningless stat. Third, the beatstick has to take Shock Trooper and Leap Attack, just to do what the caster can do casually. After all, that 55 Str War Troll has Wraithstrike. He doesn't miss on a 2 or better. He also might actually have a relevant AC, for what that's worth.

Oh and Hi Welcome Barbarosa.

Wait, what level were we talking about again? Like 5? 7?

And because as we all know, 50-70 minutes = the whole day.

And if there's a DRUID in the party, melee is well taken care of.
A battle tends to last half a minute minute, tops.  Therefore Barkskin can, in theory, last 100-140 battles.  How many encounters is a group supposed to have on a given day, again?  I remember you bitching excessively about that on another thread.

It's shorter than that. The problem is the time between fights. Which there are ways around, but not if everyone is too busy propping up the gimp to be useful themselves.

Quote
It's gear and XP you would never get in the first place, because there'd still be a player at the table playing something.

And the alternatives would earn their keep.
Counterpoint: You get to keep there stuff when they die?



Probably not, actually.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: X-Codes on January 16, 2011, 10:02:08 AM
Sunic, you fail to realize that the only difference between you and BrokeAndDrive is brevity.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: skydragonknight on January 16, 2011, 10:42:30 AM
Sunic, you fail to realize that the only difference between you and BrokeAndDrive is brevity.

Sunic doesn't wear boxers?
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Sunic_Flames on January 16, 2011, 12:22:29 PM
Sunic, you fail to realize that the only difference between you and BrokeAndDrive is brevity.

Sunic doesn't wear boxers?

I loled.

And to X-Codes - that's only true if you're an idiot. If you are not an idiot, you know better.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: wotmaniac on January 16, 2011, 01:40:38 PM
BAB is quite a meaningless stat.
um .... Power Attack?  attacks per round?
(there's dozens of things restricted to BAB; but those seem the most obvious and useful)


I am a complete dumbfuck who not only says the same shit over and over, but does so by having my cat dance on my 4chan keyboard to spew out random, long chains of insults.
a bunch of seemingly auto-biographical rambling. 
I am completely oblivious to just how silly I sound, seeing as I constantly attack people for the same shit I do all the time.
seriously dude -- do you even pay attention to what you write?  are you really that delusional?  ... or just that pathetic?
I'm just sayin' ... :shrug
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: snakeman830 on January 16, 2011, 01:56:25 PM
There is a difference between Sunic and whoever he's bashing.

Sunic is usually right.  Not always, but usually.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: veekie on January 16, 2011, 03:08:29 PM
There is a difference between Sunic and whoever he's bashing.

Sunic is usually right.  Not always, but usually.
Naw, he has a point, but after all the exaggeration and bypassing logical analysis for statements of fact, he is in fact indistinguishable from the same people he smites.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Sunic_Flames on January 16, 2011, 03:37:59 PM
BAB is quite a meaningless stat.
um .... Power Attack?  attacks per round?
(there's dozens of things restricted to BAB; but those seem the most obvious and useful)

Because it's not possible to have a high BAB and 9th level spells? Because a 4th level spell doesn't grant full BAB?

Attacking at -10 and especially -15 is quite irrelevant, this is why BAB fails, as it becomes just a to hit bonus, and those are easy to get. For example, Mr. 55 Str War Troll at level 13 has a +32 to hit just from BAB, Draconic Polymorph, and Bite of the Werebear. Not counting all the other buffs that are possible. Or just Wraithstrike.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: X-Codes on January 16, 2011, 05:09:15 PM
BAB is quite a meaningless stat.
um .... Power Attack?  attacks per round?
(there's dozens of things restricted to BAB; but those seem the most obvious and useful)

Because it's not possible to have a high BAB and 9th level spells? Because a 4th level spell doesn't grant full BAB?

Attacking at -10 and especially -15 is quite irrelevant, this is why BAB fails, as it becomes just a to hit bonus, and those are easy to get. For example, Mr. 55 Str War Troll at level 13 has a +32 to hit just from BAB, Draconic Polymorph, and Bite of the Werebear. Not counting all the other buffs that are possible. Or just Wraithstrike.
Fail.  This is why you're an idiot, Sunic.  It's been explained to you 10 different times in 5 different ways, nevermind the fact that you and the few people left who agree with you about AC not mattering keep propping up Wraithstrike for some reason.

Sure, he has 2 natural attacks that hit for d8+22, or maybe two attacks with an actual weapon that deal d6+33 and a bite that deals d6+11... A level 13 fighter with just regular Polymorph would have 3 attacks doing at least 3d6+20ish depending on his gear and a comparable attack bonus, plus the bite doing d6+5, and then all would benefit from Power Attack.  If he power attacks for -5 then that's 3 attacks with a large Greatsword doing 3d6+30 and a bite dealing d6+10.  Depending on the fight, his gear selection, and his feat selection, this damage could be MUCH GREATER (FBs would be especially scary), especially on a charge, and it's really not going to be worse at any point.

In other words, that fighter makes better use of your 4th-level Polymorph than your Wizard does of his 5th-level Draconic Polymorph and his 7th-level Bite of the Werebear, plus your Wizard would be able to stand back and cast a 7th-level spell that's actually, you know, GOOD.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Barbarossa on January 16, 2011, 06:44:36 PM
Yes, we know you fail at life, the universe, and everything.
We? It sounds like it's just you.

Oh and Hi Welcome Barbarossa.
Thanks for the welcome. You yourself are also welcome, though annoying.

Base Attack Bonus is essential for something other than basic combat, if you recall. Many prestige classes require a minimum base attack bonus, and Wraithstrike will not qualify you for those.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: skydragonknight on January 16, 2011, 07:20:11 PM
The important distinction here is are we taking about generic Wizards casting (Draconic) Polymorph or are we talking about Gishes?

Gish > Non-caster Melee > Generic Wizard as far as buffing goes, because while a lot of the best buffs are Personal, unless a Wizard chooses PrCs and feats for melee combat then they lack the synergy between having the numbers to do things right and having the options to even do things in melee to begin with.

Would you rather have Mr. God Wizard turn himself into a 12-headed hydra with Draconic Polymorph or would you rather turn Mr. Robilar's Gambit into a 10-headed Hydra with Polymorph? I would do the latter, since there's better synergy.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: X-Codes on January 16, 2011, 07:35:37 PM
The important distinction here is are we taking about generic Wizards casting (Draconic) Polymorph or are we talking about Gishes?

Gish > Non-caster Melee > Generic Wizard as far as buffing goes, because while a lot of the best buffs are Personal, unless a Wizard chooses PrCs and feats for melee combat then they lack the synergy between having the numbers to do things right and having the options to even do things in melee to begin with.

Would you rather have Mr. God Wizard turn himself into a 12-headed hydra with Draconic Polymorph or would you rather turn Mr. Robilar's Gambit into a 10-headed Hydra with Polymorph? I would do the latter, since there's better synergy.

Sunic's Wizard wasn't a gish, it only had +6 BAB.  If you make a Gish, then that's a different story to be sure, but Gishes sacrifice spellcasting and supporting feats for spellcasting to some extent to function better as a fighter with personal buffs, and overall they're better than a fighter.  In a party, however, I'm tempted to say that 1 GOD Wizard + 1 fighter > 2 gishes.  Not by much to be sure, but by enough to matter.  An argument can be made that 1 GOD Wizard + 1 gish > 1 GOD Wizard + 1 fighter, but I'm not nearly as certain that said difference is as noticeable (barring the GOD Wizard being an Incantatrix, which just makes *all* the spellcasters in a party stupid awesome at everything).  The buffs the fighter will get will be almost as good as the buffs the gish gets, the fighter can still invest a little bit more into his combat feats and BAB while the gish still loses out a little in the small, always-on numbers, and there's nothing particularly awesome that neither the gish nor the fighter can do that the GOD Wizard can't.  I suppose the big advantage would be a greater endurance when it comes to utility spells per day.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Bauglir on January 16, 2011, 08:07:02 PM
Also, I think all our arguments here are including "It is given that somebody in the party wants to play a fighter-type", and thus "Play a caster or gish instead" is an invalid argument.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Benly on January 16, 2011, 08:20:07 PM
The difference between Sunic and other trolls is his years of experience on the underground pro D&D circuit. You can't understand him until you've been exposed to the pressures of being truly pro. When you're pro, you don't have to make sense or be right, because you're pro.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: weenog on January 16, 2011, 08:25:11 PM
Nah, the difference between Sunic and other trolls is he used to have something valuable to say, and say it, and then get fed up and flip out now and then.  Now he just rides on people's memories of him having been right before, while contributing nothing and whining about everything.  Nothing inherently wrong with being acerbic, but having been clever and witty before doesn't counterbalance being a petty douchebag now.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: dark_samuari on January 16, 2011, 08:37:01 PM
Sometimes I like to have my characters wear heavy armor because it makes them look cool.

Is that a valid point?

Can my warrior not dream to look like Darth Vader?

Such woe... Such pathos...
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Havok4 on January 16, 2011, 08:54:44 PM
Sometimes I like to have my characters wear heavy armor because it makes them look cool.

Is that a valid point?

Can my warrior not dream to look like Darth Vader?

Such woe... Such pathos...

Which is my favorite part of the Bone Knight actually.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: oslecamo on January 16, 2011, 09:08:44 PM
When you're pro, you don't have to make sense or be right, because you're pro.

Not exactly. When you're a pro you're allowed to don't make sense and be wrong on other stuff than your field of expertise. When you start being wrong on the field that you're suposed to be a pro at, then you're simply not a pro anymore.

That's why all true pros know how important is to keep their skills honed and sharp, no matter how good they're at it. Reputation and past deeds alone won't keep you a pro.

Now as for medium/heavy armor, if you have low-medium Dex and don't care about skills and speed (you're using a mount for example, or are a dwarf), it's a cheap way of boosting your AC as far as I care.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: dark_samuari on January 16, 2011, 09:15:03 PM
Sometimes I like to have my characters wear heavy armor because it makes them look cool.

Is that a valid point?

Can my warrior not dream to look like Darth Vader?

Such woe... Such pathos...

Which is my favorite part of the Bone Knight actually.

My favorite part of the Bone Knight is the art depicting them.

It just screams, "Jesus Fucking Christ..."
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Benly on January 16, 2011, 09:52:09 PM
When you're pro, you don't have to make sense or be right, because you're pro.

Not exactly. When you're a pro you're allowed to don't make sense and be wrong on other stuff than your field of expertise. When you start being wrong on the field that you're suposed to be a pro at, then you're simply not a pro anymore.

That's why all true pros know how important is to keep their skills honed and sharp, no matter how good they're at it. Reputation and past deeds alone won't keep you a pro.

Now as for medium/heavy armor, if you have low-medium Dex and don't care about skills and speed (you're using a mount for example, or are a dwarf), it's a cheap way of boosting your AC as far as I care.

Clearly you don't understand just how pro Sunic is. He is, like, double pro. We can only wish we were as pro as Sunic but since I have never actually discovered a way to be invited to the underground professional D&D leagues I can only satisfy myself by being amateur.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: The_Mad_Linguist on January 17, 2011, 04:10:26 AM
When you're pro, you don't have to make sense or be right, because you're pro.

Not exactly. When you're a pro you're allowed to don't make sense and be wrong on other stuff than your field of expertise. When you start being wrong on the field that you're suposed to be a pro at, then you're simply not a pro anymore.

That's why all true pros know how important is to keep their skills honed and sharp, no matter how good they're at it. Reputation and past deeds alone won't keep you a pro.

Now as for medium/heavy armor, if you have low-medium Dex and don't care about skills and speed (you're using a mount for example, or are a dwarf), it's a cheap way of boosting your AC as far as I care.

Clearly you don't understand just how pro Sunic is. He is, like, double pro. We can only wish we were as pro as Sunic but since I have never actually discovered a way to be invited to the underground professional D&D leagues I can only satisfy myself by being amateur.
Yeah, well, I'd rather play DnD with hookers instead.

Hos before pros.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: PlzBreakMyCampaign on January 17, 2011, 05:27:34 AM
Nah, the difference between Sunic and other trolls is he used to have something valuable to say, and say it, and then but gets fed up and flips out now and then all the time.
ftfy  ;)

Yeah, well, I'd rather play DnD with hookers instead.

Hos before pros.
Gotta ask. Is this lower than paying them for, you know, other things...? And don't say you can do both.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: X-Codes on January 17, 2011, 05:29:13 AM
Nah, the difference between Sunic and other trolls is he used to have something valuable to say, and say it, and then but now gets fed up and flips out now and then all the time.
ftfy  ;)
FTFY.  :P
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Bozwevial on January 17, 2011, 02:35:11 PM
Yeah, well, I'd rather play DnD with hookers instead.

Hos before pros.
Funnily enough, they don't take in-game treasure as payment. Even when I offered a LA-free template.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Sunic_Flames on January 17, 2011, 03:41:08 PM
Sure, he has 2 natural attacks that hit for d8+22, or maybe two attacks with an actual weapon that deal d6+33 and a bite that deals d6+11... A level 13 fighter with just regular Polymorph would have 3 attacks doing at least 3d6+20ish depending on his gear and a comparable attack bonus, plus the bite doing d6+5, and then all would benefit from Power Attack.  If he power attacks for -5 then that's 3 attacks with a large Greatsword doing 3d6+30 and a bite dealing d6+10.  Depending on the fight, his gear selection, and his feat selection, this damage could be MUCH GREATER (FBs would be especially scary), especially on a charge, and it's really not going to be worse at any point.

And the wizard melees for 3 swings, each doing 1d6+40 under the same conditions, and also bites for 1d6+16. And oh yeah, he's still a Wizard, with everything that means. Of course since the wizard has +32 to hit even without other buffs, and is attacking touch AC he can just PA for full... and while that's normally under 6, there's plenty of things that give full casting and > half BAB.

Quote
In other words, that fighter makes better use of your 4th-level Polymorph than your Wizard does of his 5th-level Draconic Polymorph and his 7th-level Bite of the Werebear, plus your Wizard would be able to stand back and cast a 7th-level spell that's actually, you know, GOOD.

No, the Fighter still fails, with or without Polymorph and the Wizard still wins, with or without Draconic Polymorph.

Base Attack Bonus is essential for something other than basic combat, if you recall. Many prestige classes require a minimum base attack bonus, and Wraithstrike will not qualify you for those.

Now if only there were more beatstick PRCs worth a damn, that might actually mean something. But there aren't, so it doesn't.

People whining and flailing about me aside, any party arrangement that does not include a fighter > any party arrangement that does. Even if the fighter does not replace anyone, and therefore the alternative is an empty slot. That means 2 GOD Wizards > anything and a fighter, 1 GOD Wizard and 1 Gish > anything and a fighter, and 2 Gishes > anything and a fighter. Both in terms of auto attacking for HP damage and overall being better. Why? Because fighter = The Load, and you are always better off without one of those.

I'm not sure what the fuck any of this has to do with armors heavier than light though.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: X-Codes on January 17, 2011, 05:29:35 PM
Sunic fails at reading comprehension.

If you want to troll, Sunic, go troll GitP or something.  You're probably better off posting there with your friends Giacomo and Aelryinth, anyway.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: lans on January 17, 2011, 05:51:40 PM
I think people are exaggerating ACs uselessness. Miss chances are better, but AC often means the difference between being PAed and not being PAed. Or a 10 point difference in the PA.

It only protects you like a miss chance does when your facing multiple low CR creatures. Like 4 CR 3 elemental s, or 2 CR 5s at level 7.

Unless you gimp suit yourself.

Now if only there was a class that had such an obscene amount of resources that it could afford to have a decent AC that didn't amount to a gimp suit.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: snakeman830 on January 17, 2011, 06:21:59 PM
Now if only there was a class that had such an obscene amount of resources that it could afford to have a decent AC that didn't amount to a gimp suit.
Druid or Artificier do it easily.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: lans on January 17, 2011, 06:32:21 PM
Now if only there was a class that had such an obscene amount of resources that it could afford to have a decent AC that didn't amount to a gimp suit.
Druid or Artificier do it easily.
I was thinking Wizard, but those work too.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: archangel.arcanis on January 17, 2011, 06:33:11 PM
Now if only there was a class that had such an obscene amount of resources that it could afford to have a decent AC that didn't amount to a gimp suit.
Druid or Artificier do it easily.
I was thinking Wizard, but those work too.
And my first thought was an Artificer making his own.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: veekie on January 17, 2011, 09:23:06 PM
Sunic, I doubt anyone here is saying that fighters > wizards.
People are saying Buffed Generic Fighters are > Buffed Generic Wizards(who would not generally pack things like Power Attack due to having better things to do with his feats) in melee.

So your buffed Fighter might have Power Attack, Improved Trip or suitable tactical feats to expand upon his melee ability built right in. He has a stronger chassis, and so needs less buffing to be effective in melee. Above all, hes got nothing better to do with his actions, whereas a wizard wading into melee, buffed or not, has better things to do. As many better things as he has spell slots remaining.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Bauglir on January 17, 2011, 09:32:39 PM
Also, how often do wizards actually run out of spell slots of levels lower than their highest one or two? The opportunity cost for buffing your Fighter buddy decreases drastically when you're not spending a spell slot that matters much.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: lans on January 18, 2011, 12:19:49 AM
Plus if its a <Tier 3 game, the person whos casting the polymorph is going to be the Adept, who isn't going to have the self only buffs to make up the difference.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: PlzBreakMyCampaign on January 18, 2011, 01:18:39 AM
Also, how often do wizards actually run out of spell slots of levels lower than their highest one or two? The opportunity cost for buffing your Fighter buddy decreases drastically when you're not spending a spell slot that matters much.
Good campaigns have time limitations or are atleast not safe. 1 battle work days make things screwy

Back on topic, are their specific heavy armors that are better than specific light armors or atleast as good as celestial armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#celestialArmor).
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: veekie on January 18, 2011, 02:09:51 AM
Also, how often do wizards actually run out of spell slots of levels lower than their highest one or two? The opportunity cost for buffing your Fighter buddy decreases drastically when you're not spending a spell slot that matters much.
Good campaigns have time limitations or are atleast not safe. 1 battle work days make things screwy
Erm, even on a NORMAL campaign day, the wizard isn't at much risk of running out of his spell slots after level 4-5 or so. Most encounters take one or two slots of the wizard's highest or second highest level. Lower as you get more universally effective mid level spells.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Mixster on January 18, 2011, 10:12:41 AM
Also, how often do wizards actually run out of spell slots of levels lower than their highest one or two? The opportunity cost for buffing your Fighter buddy decreases drastically when you're not spending a spell slot that matters much.
Good campaigns have time limitations or are atleast not safe. 1 battle work days make things screwy
Erm, even on a NORMAL campaign day, the wizard isn't at much risk of running out of his spell slots after level 4-5 or so. Most encounters take one or two slots of the wizard's highest or second highest level. Lower as you get more universally effective mid level spells.

And even with proper preparation, your first level spells can be very versatile.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: veekie on January 18, 2011, 12:10:40 PM
So yeah, unless you're running 10 encounter work days, the casters will be fine, just a little tighter than usual. And at higher levels, even 10 encounters that aren't TPK grade might not do that, depending on usage of long duration buffs to get a spell slot through multiple encounters.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Sunic_Flames on January 18, 2011, 01:48:43 PM
Sunic fails at reading comprehension.

If you want to troll, Sunic, go troll GitP or something.  You're probably better off posting there with your friends Giacomo and Aelryinth, anyway.

Hi Welcome

The clown Monk guy is banned from GitP. Faelryinth hangs out on the other main fail board.

As for Wizards and spell slots, a spell 2 levels below your max is good enough to pull your weight in an encounter 2 levels higher (level 10 party of 4, Slow, ECL 12 encounter). Running out of spells is not a problem. Granted the Cleric also threw a Greater Command and the other Cleric used 1 (and later a second) use of a 9/day ability. Not the point, as they have similar depth to their resource pools and can therefore easily manage an endurance run.

It helps that the party in that example is all tier 1 casters. That means resources last a lot longer.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Bauglir on January 18, 2011, 03:46:49 PM
Great, so we're in agreement, then? A wizard isn't likely to run out of useful spells to begin with, so spending a few to make the fighter feel useful isn't a huge problem?
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Sunic_Flames on January 18, 2011, 06:32:54 PM
Well no, if you have a resource sink in the party you're going to run out a lot faster ensuring he doesn't die all the time. But, assuming you don't spells go very far.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: wotmaniac on January 18, 2011, 07:13:26 PM
Well no, if you have a resource sink in the party you're going to run out a lot faster ensuring he doesn't die all the time. But, assuming you don't spells go very far.
and, of course, I suspect that by "resource sink" you actually mean "non-optimized non-tier 1 character"  :rollseyes
I think you fail to grasp some of the essential elements inherent in the "team effort" concepts; and also suspect that you failed "works and plays wells with others" in school.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Bauglir on January 18, 2011, 08:20:04 PM
Actually, I just suspect we have different concepts of what the point of the game is. Sunic (if I understand correctly) believes that the point is to Win, and that this is the means by which fun is had; there is no fun if your characters are capable of Losing against anything but a cheating DM. And that if the DM has to cheat to keep you from Losing, that also obliterates fun, because you're being coddled. Thus, since it's a team game, any other player who isn't up to snuff makes the game worse for him because it increases the chances that his character can get fucked over by something beyond his control (when the encounter that was supposed to be for 4 people is suddenly for 1 or 2 because the others are dead). And thus it's everybody's responsibility to make sure their character doesn't ruin it for others. He recognizes it's a team game that revolves around working with others, and that's why it's their responsibility to put forth the effort to be competent.

I (and I suspect most people arguing against Sunic), recognize that it's a team game that revolves around working with others, and therefore it's our responsibility to put for the effort to make the others competent. And we probably have completely different bases for that conclusion; mine, at least, is that the point is to Advance the Story (whether that means following a railroad plot or exploring a sandbox world or anything in between, preferably something in between), and that this is the means by which fun is had. The rules are just there to prevent it from turning into a feud of "No, my character is more powerful!" or complete DM arbitration ("I don't think your character can swing from that chandelier, think of something else"). This leads to a lot of different conclusions, this among them.

That said, Sunic, you can't simultaneously claim that casters don't run out of spell slots and that it's therefore not an issue, but that 2 to 4 buff spells from the party caster(s) per day is a serious drain on a caster's resources. Either they're a valuable commodity or they're not, but you're just cherry-picking both in an attempt to assert a logically inconsistent worldview. Get over your mental dissonance, man.

EDIT: on the offchance I haven't killed the thread, then I should point out that I understand that one goal doesn't preclude the other (you can want to win and advance the story), but if one or the other is the primary means by which you have fun, then it still does result in different playstyles.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Sunic_Flames on January 19, 2011, 03:40:39 PM
Well no, if you have a resource sink in the party you're going to run out a lot faster ensuring he doesn't die all the time. But, assuming you don't spells go very far.
and, of course, I suspect that by "resource sink" you actually mean "non-optimized non-tier 1 character"  :rollseyes
I think you fail to grasp some of the essential elements inherent in the "team effort" concepts; and also suspect that you failed "works and plays wells with others" in school.

By resource sink I mean non caster. Even high tier non casters still need you to cast Fly on them so they can get around the obstacle with the rest of the party, and still need you to cast Endure Elements on them so they don't freeze to death in the Frostfell (alternately, they use their too small WBL to do the same), and still need you to cast Resist Energy on them so they don't get pewpewpewed to death by the hostile environment...

I understand team effort just fine. Teamwork is not propping up the gimp. Teamwork is making the whole better than the sum of its parts. And that means you need actual abilities to help each other. Guess what those are?

_ _ _ _ _ _

Noun.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Sunic_Flames on January 19, 2011, 03:52:40 PM
Actually, I just suspect we have different concepts of what the point of the game is. Sunic (if I understand correctly) believes that the point is to Win, and that this is the means by which fun is had; there is no fun if your characters are capable of Losing against anything but a cheating DM. And that if the DM has to cheat to keep you from Losing, that also obliterates fun, because you're being coddled. Thus, since it's a team game, any other player who isn't up to snuff makes the game worse for him because it increases the chances that his character can get fucked over by something beyond his control (when the encounter that was supposed to be for 4 people is suddenly for 1 or 2 because the others are dead). And thus it's everybody's responsibility to make sure their character doesn't ruin it for others. He recognizes it's a team game that revolves around working with others, and that's why it's their responsibility to put forth the effort to be competent.

The victory conditions for D&D are advancing character goals. They are also winning every single fight, as otherwise you die and therefore accomplish nothing. However the winning 100% of battles is the means by which you advance the real victory condition and not the victory condition itself. With that said that is mostly correct. Not only from the perspective of the party having two, or effectively having two capable members when it should have four, but also from an immersion standpoint. It is not a coincidence that professions such as police and firefighters have entrance exams. And more dangerous professions have higher standards. To establish a baseline of competence. People that aren't up for the job of adventuring, which by the way is considerably more dangerous than any profession on Earth either don't sign up for it or they don't last very long. Either because they learn the hard way they aren't cut out for it, or because they get dismissed from the party for their own good. Consequentially, adventurers are expected to be good at adventuring. I know, what a concept.

Quote
I (and I suspect most people arguing against Sunic), recognize that it's a team game that revolves around working with others, and therefore it's our responsibility to put for the effort to make the others competent. And we probably have completely different bases for that conclusion; mine, at least, is that the point is to Advance the Story (whether that means following a railroad plot or exploring a sandbox world or anything in between, preferably something in between), and that this is the means by which fun is had. The rules are just there to prevent it from turning into a feud of "No, my character is more powerful!" or complete DM arbitration ("I don't think your character can swing from that chandelier, think of something else"). This leads to a lot of different conclusions, this among them.

Who says I'm not about making others competent? Propping up a gimp is not making them competent. Getting them to play a real class is making them competent. However teamwork is just that. Working as a team. Not stroking some useless character's ego.

Quote
That said, Sunic, you can't simultaneously claim that casters don't run out of spell slots and that it's therefore not an issue, but that 2 to 4 buff spells from the party caster(s) per day is a serious drain on a caster's resources. Either they're a valuable commodity or they're not, but you're just cherry-picking both in an attempt to assert a logically inconsistent worldview. Get over your mental dissonance, man.

On the contrary, I can make exactly this claim for one simple reason. The conditions are different. Under typical circumstances, where you do not drag dead weight around spells go very far, as you throw one, maybe two a fight, and have around... 20. When you DO have to drag dead weight around, spells get burned up a lot faster, both because you have to deal with characters that cannot provide for themselves in providing those spells and because, since you cannot all cast spells you are forced to fight in far less efficient ways.

A party of all casters doesn't even necessarily need to scry and fry - they can stealth run the dungeon, kill the boss, and forget the rest. Bring a beatstick around and he'll want to go into melee, leading to a lot more fights, a lot more resources used in those fights, and a lot more risk. K said it better than I could, but I can't find his post about the subject.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Bauglir on January 19, 2011, 04:09:35 PM
Eh, I don't have tests to determine D&D rules competency before I let you play in my games, because I don't think you have to have a minimum level of competence to have fun. There are competency tests for being a firefighter, etc., because if you aren't competent you're likely to get yourself killed and not do anybody any good. That doesn't really apply to D&D. If your concept is "dude with a sword", and that's what's fun for you, I'm going to try and help make it actually work, even if I'm another player and it's going to cost me a few resources to do so.

When you throw around maybe 1 or 2 spells per fight, though, the difference between 20 and 16 spells per day is not significant unless your DM is a fan of endurance runs. If we're getting into subjective things like varying tactics, all I can say is that it's not my experience that the best spells are frequently made ineffective by melee combatants' presence, nor is the minor expenditure of resources to buff people that big a deal (since I don't usually buff others with my highest spell levels, unless I'm playing in a gestalt game where I actually have that kind of massive resource base and it's part of the character concept).

Think of it this way; if you've turned the Fighter into a war troll, then when he's full attacking it's like you're getting the benefit of your spell without spending an action, leaving you free to do whatever you want. When you're turned into a war troll, then you have to spend actions to get that full attack.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: dark_samuari on January 19, 2011, 04:17:29 PM
Sunic, do you really consider all non-casters to be gimps?

That just seems to be such an awful conception and really would push an individual towards a manner of Dungeons and Dragons which was more akin to rocket tag.

I can understand how one with an adopted stance to the game might believe that the only thing that matters in the game at all is combat, but for a vast majority of players that isn't the case.

You are fine to have your idea of what constitutes a game of Dungeons and Dragons but don't be so pompous as to assume that is how every single player should play the game.  
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Mixster on January 19, 2011, 04:50:03 PM
If you play in high optimized Tier 1 campaigns where the DM is out to kill you. Non-casters are gimps.

If you play with your friends, calling them gimps is a good way to get nachos thrown at you.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: oslecamo on January 19, 2011, 06:35:24 PM
If you play in high optimized Tier 1 campaigns where the DM is out to kill you. Non-casters are gimps.

Actually, if the DM really wants to kill you, you're dead even if you bring the best possible caster build. Even if he stays inside CR, the potential for monster optimization simply trumps player optimization. Like those who cast like casters of an higher level than themselves.

However pretty much all DMs I've seen have a degree of "fairness". They send stuff that can, but will not automatically kill you. And the best DMs will tailor said ecounters to the party. So if the party isn't bringing a god wizard and clericzillaz, then by all means the DM won't be throwing ethergaunt incantrixes back at them just to screw them over.

And even then, unable to win=/= game over. Running away is a well honed tactic in D&D. Certain oponents may believe you're worth more alive than dead. You may have be-friended the right NPCs to save/ressurect your ass should you not return in X days. That's one of the main points that makes D&D diferent from a computer RPG, that the fantasy world isn't just a bunch of scripted events and random sets of numbers for you to beat.

Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: JaronK on January 19, 2011, 06:42:07 PM
Tier 5 is how the game was originally meant to be played... casters were the screw up, not Fighters or Monks.  Note that this means Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

JaronK
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Sunic_Flames on January 19, 2011, 06:49:10 PM
Eh, I don't have tests to determine D&D rules competency before I let you play in my games, because I don't think you have to have a minimum level of competence to have fun. There are competency tests for being a firefighter, etc., because if you aren't competent you're likely to get yourself killed and not do anybody any good. That doesn't really apply to D&D. If your concept is "dude with a sword", and that's what's fun for you, I'm going to try and help make it actually work, even if I'm another player and it's going to cost me a few resources to do so.

If you are not competent, your dude with sword dies. And then he dies again. And again. And it doesn't take very much of this to where you have to blatantly metagame to justify why you keep the guy around. Which is what I actually said, despite you shifting the goal posts from IC to OOC.

Quote
When you throw around maybe 1 or 2 spells per fight, though, the difference between 20 and 16 spells per day is not significant unless your DM is a fan of endurance runs. If we're getting into subjective things like varying tactics, all I can say is that it's not my experience that the best spells are frequently made ineffective by melee combatants' presence, nor is the minor expenditure of resources to buff people that big a deal (since I don't usually buff others with my highest spell levels, unless I'm playing in a gestalt game where I actually have that kind of massive resource base and it's part of the character concept).

Except that it's not the difference between 20 and 16. As I said, it is far more than that. Try 20 vs 10, and that's being generous. And given that endurance runs are the most common false argument leveled against all caster teams, or against casters in general...

A full caster team stealths the dungeon, kills the boss, and ignores the rest. The team with a beatstick has to stop constantly, because he wants to fight everything, which means substantially more resources used just because he is there. Again, K preemptively wins this argument.

Quote
Think of it this way; if you've turned the Fighter into a war troll, then when he's full attacking it's like you're getting the benefit of your spell without spending an action, leaving you free to do whatever you want. When you're turned into a war troll, then you have to spend actions to get that full attack.

Well no, you're not because it's a full attack.

Sunic, do you really consider all non-casters to be gimps?

That just seems to be such an awful conception and really would push an individual towards a manner of Dungeons and Dragons which was more akin to rocket tag.

I can understand how one with an adopted stance to the game might believe that the only thing that matters in the game at all is combat, but for a vast majority of players that isn't the case.

You are fine to have your idea of what constitutes a game of Dungeons and Dragons but don't be so pompous as to assume that is how every single player should play the game. 

Hi Welcome

The game is RLT no matter what. The only thing that changes is:

Do you have Rockets? If you are a caster, you do. If you are not, you do not without heavy optimization.
Do you have the ability to advance the plot? If caster = yes, ability to advance plot = yes. Else, no.

Also, running away does nothing but get you killed anyways, unless you have Dimension Door or better, and even then escape is not assured.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Mixster on January 19, 2011, 06:53:31 PM
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

JaronK

I am so gonna keep this quote and use it out of context.

If you play in high optimized Tier 1 campaigns where the DM is out to kill you. Non-casters are gimps.

Actually, if the DM really wants to kill you, you're dead even if you bring the best possible caster build. Even if he stays inside CR, the potential for monster optimization simply trumps player optimization. Like those who cast like casters of an higher level than themselves.

However pretty much all DMs I've seen have a degree of "fairness". They send stuff that can, but will not automatically kill you. And the best DMs will tailor said ecounters to the party. So if the party isn't bringing a god wizard and clericzillaz, then by all means the DM won't be throwing ethergaunt incantrixes back at them just to screw them over.

And even then, unable to win=/= game over. Running away is a well honed tactic in D&D. Certain oponents may believe you're worth more alive than dead. You may have be-friended the right NPCs to save/ressurect your ass should you not return in X days. That's one of the main points that makes D&D diferent from a computer RPG, that the fantasy world isn't just a bunch of scripted events and random sets of numbers for you to beat.

Exactly, those are my viewpoints as well. But if everybody is tier 1, tier 3 and below are gimps. That doesn't mean the game is only fun to play if everyone is Tier 1.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: dark_samuari on January 19, 2011, 07:03:44 PM
Sunic, do you really consider all non-casters to be gimps?

That just seems to be such an awful conception and really would push an individual towards a manner of Dungeons and Dragons which was more akin to rocket tag.

I can understand how one with an adopted stance to the game might believe that the only thing that matters in the game at all is combat, but for a vast majority of players that isn't the case.

You are fine to have your idea of what constitutes a game of Dungeons and Dragons but don't be so pompous as to assume that is how every single player should play the game. 

Hi Welcome

The game is RLT no matter what. The only thing that changes is:

Do you have Rockets? If you are a caster, you do. If you are not, you do not without heavy optimization.
Do you have the ability to advance the plot? If caster = yes, ability to advance plot = yes. Else, no.

Prove that a non-caster can't advance a plot. Please, enlighten us to such a claim.

Once again you are making baseless assumptions that every Dungeons and Dragons game is like yours (which by the way sound horrible). Sunic did you know that some sessions don't even need combat?

You do know that plot isn't tied to game mechanics right? Please tell me you at least understand the basic elements of story telling? 
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Bauglir on January 19, 2011, 07:46:37 PM
I'm not really moving the goalposts. The OOC arguments basically just mean that if somebody brings a Fighter to the table, you really just have to go "Fuck it, fine" and work out how your character is going to justify, in-game, bringing the Fighter along while he's adventuring. Because while you could certainly say, "My wizard doesn't see the point in adventuring with dead weight", that's a lot likelier to end with you not being invited to the rest of the sessions than it is to convince somebody that playing a Fighter isn't a good idea. So yeah, the Fighter being there is metagame.

Which is where all of the other arguments about Fighters not being as much of a resource-sink as you make them out to be come in, because those are the IC ones that justify the conclusion OOC stuff already arrived at, and which is probably more important than whether or not your fictional Wizard is slightly less omnipotent than it could be. They're just designed to give in-game plausibility, in the same way that the fireball is an in-game explanation for why everything in a 30 foot radius just took a bunch of fire damage. It is not always true, in absolutely every situation, that the Fighter is going to be able to contribute, but in the games I play it typically works out that the number of situations a Fighter actively ruins is very, very, very small compared to the number of situations where the Fighter at least contributes a pile of hit point damage. Actually, I've not seen one we haven't been able to at least plan around (recently, I've been that non-stealthy character in a sudden stealth scenario, and I just decided to be a giant distraction and it worked out okay).

Again, none of this makes the Fighter a good class. None of it makes it powerful, a viable contributor to an optimized party, or any of that. But compared to telling a friend their character concept is unworthy of existing in the same party as mine, being less awesome personally in order to make the party overall still function has always been the superior option. And at this point, we're not talking about "Here's how you can make your character better", we're talking about entire concepts. If the party is not entirely made of full casters, we will not have encounters designed for a party full of full-casters, because I don't play with douches for DMs if I can help it.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Havok4 on January 19, 2011, 07:52:32 PM
This thread has gotten off topic, to a rather astounding degree.

Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Shadowhunter on January 19, 2011, 08:50:44 PM
This thread has gotten off topic, to a rather astounding degree.




http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10425.0

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10497.0

That is all.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Bauglir on January 19, 2011, 09:07:48 PM
You make a convincing argument! I'll shut up about that now.

So the point of Medium and Heavy armor, I think, is supposed to be that if you don't want to expend huge resources on having a high AC, you can at least buy a decent one, and have a defense that won't leave you dying instantly. I don't think it was executed well, but I think that's the point (and that's the goal I'd have in mind redesigning it).
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: wotmaniac on January 19, 2011, 09:48:39 PM
You make a convincing argument! I'll shut up about that now.

So the point of Medium and Heavy armor, I think, is supposed to be that if you don't want to expend huge resources on having a high AC, you can at least buy a decent one, and have a defense that won't leave you dying instantly. I don't think it was executed well, but I think that's the point (and that's the goal I'd have in mind redesigning it).
:cake

now, if only that would have come out on the first page ... we could have avoided a 10-page argument with Sunic.  :facepalm
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: veekie on January 19, 2011, 11:58:35 PM
^^
Naw, there'd be one anyway.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: X-Codes on January 20, 2011, 12:46:21 AM
You make a convincing argument! I'll shut up about that now.

So the point of Medium and Heavy armor, I think, is supposed to be that if you don't want to expend huge resources on having a high AC, you can at least buy a decent one, and have a defense that won't leave you dying instantly. I don't think it was executed well, but I think that's the point (and that's the goal I'd have in mind redesigning it).
:cake

now, if only that would have come out on the first page ... we could have avoided a 10-page argument with Sunic.  :facepalm
In the logical sense of the term, it's not an argument.  Sunic made way too many inconsistent propositions during the course of the thread for it to be considered as such.  Truthfully, Sunic is elemental Nerd Rage and is compelled by his nature to flame every caster//melee thread into nonsense.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Absolon on January 20, 2011, 01:46:36 AM
Quote
n the logical sense of the term, it's not an argument.  Sunic made way too many inconsistent propositions during the course of the thread for it to be considered as such.  Truthfully, Sunic is elemental Nerd Rage and is compelled by his nature to flame every caster//melee thread into nonsense.

...but isn't this thread about Medium and Heavy armor and not about caster vs melee?  It seems to me that AC curve for the different armor types has too small a slope to begin with.  To differentiate between Medium and Heavy armor even, I think adding some incentive to take heavier armors would be nice.  Let Medium armor give you something besides just raw AC versus Light armor, and the same for Heavy armor.  Whatever bonus or cool thing it is, don't let it be minor enough to be ignored.  Wearing heavier armor already has a lot of penalties associated with it, like the ACP and slower movement speed and lower dex bonus, so we should be getting something quite good in return that the lower armor levels can't give us.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: wotmaniac on January 20, 2011, 02:38:34 AM
Quote
n the logical sense of the term, it's not an argument.  Sunic made way too many inconsistent propositions during the course of the thread for it to be considered as such.  Truthfully, Sunic is elemental Nerd Rage and is compelled by his nature to flame every caster//melee thread into nonsense.

...but isn't this thread about Medium and Heavy armor and not about caster vs melee?  It seems to me that AC curve for the different armor types has too small a slope to begin with.  To differentiate between Medium and Heavy armor even, I think adding some incentive to take heavier armors would be nice.  Let Medium armor give you something besides just raw AC versus Light armor, and the same for Heavy armor.  Whatever bonus or cool thing it is, don't let it be minor enough to be ignored.  Wearing heavier armor already has a lot of penalties associated with it, like the ACP and slower movement speed and lower dex bonus, so we should be getting something quite good in return that the lower armor levels can't give us.
which is why, in my games, I've houseruled that I've associated armor/shield type with how much fortification you can put on it. (i.e., light armor/bucklers can only have lt.fort. ; medium armor/light shields can have up to med.fort. ; only heavy armor/shields can have up to hvy.fort.)
it's not perfect - not by a long shot - but it does seem to make my group happy .... YMMV.

yeah, the small curve is probably one of the things that I think Bauglir was talking about when he said "poor execution".
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Nytemare3701 on January 20, 2011, 07:26:03 AM
How about a 2 AC jump from light to medium, a 4 AC jump from medium to heavy, and the "Half the AC is DR instead" rule from UA?

This would make fullplate something to be reckoned with as it and a tower shield would give impressive protection, to the tune of 14 AC and 6 DR.

Math:
12 AC Fullplate becomes 6 AC fullplate with 6 DR
8 AC tower shield stays where it is.


BTW, this is only for fighters, as a "good stuff" for one of his dead levels.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: zugschef on January 20, 2011, 08:05:41 AM
How about a 2 AC jump from light to medium, a 4 AC jump from medium to heavy, and the "Half the AC is DR instead" rule from UA?

This would make fullplate something to be reckoned with as it and a tower shield would give impressive protection, to the tune of 14 AC and 6 DR.

Math:
12 AC Fullplate becomes 6 AC fullplate with 6 DR
8 AC tower shield stays where it is.


BTW, this is only for fighters, as a "good stuff" for one of his dead levels.
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10638.msg363851#msg363851 ;-)
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Nytemare3701 on January 20, 2011, 09:07:57 AM
How about a 2 AC jump from light to medium, a 4 AC jump from medium to heavy, and the "Half the AC is DR instead" rule from UA?

This would make fullplate something to be reckoned with as it and a tower shield would give impressive protection, to the tune of 14 AC and 6 DR.

Math:
12 AC Fullplate becomes 6 AC fullplate with 6 DR
8 AC tower shield stays where it is.


BTW, this is only for fighters, as a "good stuff" for one of his dead levels.
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10638.msg363851#msg363851 ;-)
I'd like it to be an effective form of proficiency, as the current one is a joke.

Revised Ideas:

•AP Medium gives you the +2 to wearing medium, but requires 5 BAB to gain the bonus?
•AP Heavy gives you the +4 to wearing heavy, but requires 10 BAB?
•AP Exotic gives you a +6 to wearing Exotic, but requires 15 BAB?

These revised rules allow a gish to qualify if they try hard enough, but a fighter gets the benefits automatically as he reaches the BAB benchmarks.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Kajhera on January 20, 2011, 10:24:24 AM
Okay, I read like the first two and last pages.
What adjustments do you have to make if you just plain make armor give DR equal to its armor bonus?
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Nytemare3701 on January 20, 2011, 10:29:40 AM
Just make sure the casters don't get the same and you will be fine. (I use a BAB limit for it)
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: wotmaniac on January 20, 2011, 12:26:10 PM
Okay, I read like the first two and last pages.
What adjustments do you have to make if you just plain make armor give DR equal to its armor bonus?
eliminate power attack and two-handed weapons? 
ignore max dex restrictions?
neither one of those really make any sense, except in a metagame balancing standpoint (i.e., in relation to the mechanic change in question).

seriously ....
for each +1 of AC shifted to DR, each +1 of strength is gonna deliver +1.5 damage from a 2-handed weapon (for a net of +.5)
each +1 of AC shifted to DR is gonna allow an extra +1 to power attack, and at 2/1, your DR becomes worthless pretty quick.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: veekie on January 20, 2011, 12:44:41 PM
Okay, I read like the first two and last pages.
What adjustments do you have to make if you just plain make armor give DR equal to its armor bonus?
eliminate power attack and two-handed weapons? 
ignore max dex restrictions?
neither one of those really make any sense, except in a metagame balancing standpoint (i.e., in relation to the mechanic change in question).

seriously ....
for each +1 of AC shifted to DR, each +1 of strength is gonna deliver +1.5 damage from a 2-handed weapon (for a net of +.5)
each +1 of AC shifted to DR is gonna allow an extra +1 to power attack, and at 2/1, your DR becomes worthless pretty quick.

He DID mention raising AC before performing the shift.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Kajhera on January 20, 2011, 01:00:09 PM
Okay, I read like the first two and last pages.
What adjustments do you have to make if you just plain make armor give DR equal to its armor bonus?
eliminate power attack and two-handed weapons? 
ignore max dex restrictions?
neither one of those really make any sense, except in a metagame balancing standpoint (i.e., in relation to the mechanic change in question).

seriously ....
for each +1 of AC shifted to DR, each +1 of strength is gonna deliver +1.5 damage from a 2-handed weapon (for a net of +.5)
each +1 of AC shifted to DR is gonna allow an extra +1 to power attack, and at 2/1, your DR becomes worthless pretty quick.

He DID mention raising AC before performing the shift.

... Who is this 'he'?

I didn't mean change armor bonus to DR. I meant add DR to armor equal to armor bonus. So maybe you meant me. :P
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: wotmaniac on January 20, 2011, 02:13:54 PM
Okay, I read like the first two and last pages.
What adjustments do you have to make if you just plain make armor give DR equal to its armor bonus?
eliminate power attack and two-handed weapons? 
ignore max dex restrictions?
neither one of those really make any sense, except in a metagame balancing standpoint (i.e., in relation to the mechanic change in question).

seriously ....
for each +1 of AC shifted to DR, each +1 of strength is gonna deliver +1.5 damage from a 2-handed weapon (for a net of +.5)
each +1 of AC shifted to DR is gonna allow an extra +1 to power attack, and at 2/1, your DR becomes worthless pretty quick.

He DID mention raising AC before performing the shift.

... Who is this 'he'?

I didn't mean change armor bonus to DR. I meant add DR to armor equal to armor bonus. So maybe you meant me. :P
oh, I see.


WOW! that's huge!
other issues aside, this would definitely completely change the entirety of the adamantine market.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Nytemare3701 on January 20, 2011, 02:22:56 PM
To keep adamantine special, I would make it stack with the normal armor DR.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Bauglir on January 20, 2011, 03:51:57 PM
To keep adamantine special, I would make it stack with the normal armor DR.

I would also triple the value it provides.

EDIT: At minimum.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Mixster on January 20, 2011, 04:13:17 PM
To keep adamantine special, I would make it stack with the normal armor DR.

I would also triple the value it provides.

EDIT: At minimum.

And all you've done is made hitting enemies with a sword more worthless.

The wizard doesn't care what armour you are wearing, he will just zap you anyway. And monsters with spells will just use those on you anyway.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: wotmaniac on January 20, 2011, 05:58:37 PM
To keep adamantine special, I would make it stack with the normal armor DR.

I would also triple the value it provides.

EDIT: At minimum.
actually, I was thinking of going the other way -- have it stack, but cut the price down to just doubling the cost of the armor. (not sure how to adjust the price of other stuff like weapons. edge weapons are easy to reflavor, but bludgeoning weapons not so much)


not to mention Mixster's point about sticking it to martial types even more.
unless you say that special materials can bypass the base DR.  but then you've just dove head-first in to a rabbit whole from which there may be no return ...
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: archangel.arcanis on January 20, 2011, 06:04:55 PM
How about making adamantine better by it granting some sort of spell defense rather than DR. Maybe enemy only SR equal to 10+AC bonus.  :devil Though something scaling would be better.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Kajhera on January 20, 2011, 06:48:14 PM
Yea, adamantine is the first problem I thought of, barbarians the second. Probably would make it stack. Price adjust after playtesting.

Maybe normal armor should give DR / adamantine. That makes sense. Adamantine armor gives DR/- + normal adamantine bonus?

Magic enhancement should not give dr or give dr... I am not sure. It is tougher armor.

If blasting spells were the trouble I'd say have DR apply vs. many blasting spells, but I doubt blasting spells are the trouble. If they do get to be troublesome though, ...
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Maat_Mons on January 20, 2011, 07:03:05 PM
How about making adamantine better by it granting some sort of spell defense rather than DR.

Oerthblood (Dragon 351 – 45) gives a luck bonus to saves against magic effects that scales with the kind of armor you make it into.  If you want to favor non-casters, you could make a material that provides a bonus to your saves and a penalty to the save DC of spells you cast, both of which scale with the kind of armor. 
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Sunic_Flames on January 20, 2011, 08:21:54 PM
To the several fail trolls: Hi Welcome

To the actual topic: I've already explained how to fix non light armors earlier here.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: weenog on January 20, 2011, 09:32:40 PM
How about making adamantine better by it granting some sort of spell defense rather than DR. Maybe enemy only SR equal to 10+AC bonus.  :devil Though something scaling would be better.
How about leaving adamantine pretty tough against physical blows and giving this idea to armor made of cold iron?
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: X-Codes on January 20, 2011, 11:13:09 PM
To the several fail trolls: Hi Welcome

To the actual topic: I've already explained how to fix non light armors earlier here.
You're full of shit and your "fix" is crap.  Go back to the kiddy table and let the grown-ups come up with better ideas.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Lycanthromancer on January 20, 2011, 11:15:51 PM
...Here we go again...
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: dark_samuari on January 20, 2011, 11:16:58 PM
To the actual topic: I've already explained how to fix non light armors earlier here.

Than leave...
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Mixster on January 20, 2011, 11:18:07 PM
...Here we go again...

I didn't start the flamewar! (http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1907543)
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Bauglir on January 20, 2011, 11:36:01 PM
That's a good point. We've got two separate issues here, then, as I see it. The first is that armor is useless against spells; thus, spellcasters have yet another reason why they're just plain better than everyone else. This actually seems intentional on the designers part (even if it's not something they explicitly thought about), but it probably shouldn't be so. The second is that armor is nigh-useless against actual attacks, as well; thus, it fails even to provide the single defense the designers thought it would.

So, come to think of it, I guess armor fixes do need to be more comprehensive than I thought earlier, unless you fix spellcasting in an unrelated way first.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Littha on January 20, 2011, 11:43:58 PM
I was thinking about a potential fix.  Basically make armor give you miss chance that works against LoE based spells along with attacks.


Needs more work but so far (AC*5) = miss chance. That is a lot of miss chance and I need to have some way of getting around it... Possibly (AC-Enemy attack bonus)*5 = Miss chance.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: JaronK on January 21, 2011, 12:48:34 AM
I like the idea of cold iron armor that helps against spells a lot.  SR equal to the total armor bonus +10 and maybe an increase to will and fort saves equal to half the armor bonus against spells only, perhaps?

JaronK
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: The_Mad_Linguist on January 21, 2011, 12:49:30 AM
I like the idea of cold iron armor that helps against spells a lot.  SR equal to the total armor bonus +10 and maybe an increase to will and fort saves equal to half the armor bonus against spells only, perhaps?

JaronK
SR that you can voluntarily let things through, I assume, since as is SR can be a bad thing.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Mixster on January 21, 2011, 01:05:00 AM
I like the idea of cold iron armor that helps against spells a lot.  SR equal to the total armor bonus +10 and maybe an increase to will and fort saves equal to half the armor bonus against spells only, perhaps?

JaronK
SR that you can voluntarily let things through, I assume, since as is SR can be a bad thing.

Also, it should preferably be level scaling or stacking with other SR, else it would be tremendously useful at levels 3-5. And needless at levels 10-20.

I was thinking about a potential fix.  Basically make armor give you miss chance that works against LoE based spells along with attacks.


Needs more work but so far (AC*5) = miss chance. That is a lot of miss chance and I need to have some way of getting around it... Possibly (AC-Enemy attack bonus)*5 = Miss chance.

I quite like this. It is simple, yet useful. It doesn't make that much sense, but D&D doesn't make sense anyway, so it is a nice fix.

Unless you by enemy attack bonus mean their total bonus to attack rolls and not just their BAB. And you don't let it apply for spells, then you've still just fixed the problem until around level 10.

Perhaps even make it so light armours are no miss chance, medium armours are AC*5 and Heavy Armours are AC*10.
That would put the cleric into Tier 0 though.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: JaronK on January 21, 2011, 01:10:54 AM
SR that you can voluntarily let things through, I assume, since as is SR can be a bad thing.

True, and yet it makes no sense for a magic stopping material to be voluntarily negated.  Perhaps you can ignore the SR when touched by the caster (since you're letting them bypass the armor and touch you directly?).

JaronK
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: weenog on January 21, 2011, 01:21:33 AM
I like the idea of cold iron armor that helps against spells a lot.  SR equal to the total armor bonus +10 and maybe an increase to will and fort saves equal to half the armor bonus against spells only, perhaps?

JaronK

Saving throw boosts are nice to have, but I don't know that it makes much sense thematically -- armor is (or at least is supposed to be) about causing targeted attacks to glance off rather than hit home.  What if cold iron armor's total armor bonus applied to touch attacks, but only touch attacks to hit with spells and spell-like abilities?  +5 cold iron full plate in addition to a deflection bonus and maybe parrying shield could make connecting something like Sonic Orb, Disintegrate, or Twin Empowered Split Repeating Enervation a non-trivial task, especially for a repeatedly multiclassed magic user.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Bloody Initiate on January 21, 2011, 01:31:45 AM
SR that you can voluntarily let things through, I assume, since as is SR can be a bad thing.

True, and yet it makes no sense for a magic stopping material to be voluntarily negated.  Perhaps you can ignore the SR when touched by the caster (since you're letting them bypass the armor and touch you directly?).

JaronK

Well most buffs and such must be delivered via touch right? Why not argue that the guy in the armor isn't so much as lowering their SR as they are presenting an unarmored portion of themselves for their allied caster? If it's the metal creating the SR, say the heavily-armored fighter presents their palm for buffs, which is clad only in leather.

The point is if you want something to work you should make it work for the right reasons and not let imaginary arguments get in the way. Who cares that the guy is clad in magic-resistant garb? He's a melee type, he needs all the help he can get, and since there's no science to D&D magic anyway, why bother applying any? The reason magic is so good in D&D is because everyone making it just imagined rather than limiting it all, and they limited everything non-magic in every way they could imagine.

I also like weenog's suggestion.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: JaronK on January 21, 2011, 05:23:54 AM
Well most buffs and such must be delivered via touch right? Why not argue that the guy in the armor isn't so much as lowering their SR as they are presenting an unarmored portion of themselves for their allied caster? If it's the metal creating the SR, say the heavily-armored fighter presents their palm for buffs, which is clad only in leather.

Right, which is why I said you can bypass the SR if the caster is friendly and touches you during the casting.  That should still allow for most buffs to get through, while making some sense.

JaronK
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Nytemare3701 on January 21, 2011, 05:28:15 AM
At that point you run the risk of getting punched in the face by SR touch spells.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: JaronK on January 21, 2011, 05:35:05 AM
Hence "friendly."  You have to chose to allow it.  Figure it's the caster hitting the inside of your palm, or some other intentionally made open patch.

JaronK
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: The_Mad_Linguist on January 21, 2011, 05:46:41 AM
Hence "friendly."  You have to chose to allow it.  Figure it's the caster hitting the inside of your palm, or some other intentionally made open patch.

JaronK
Healing Facepalm?
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Bloody Initiate on January 21, 2011, 07:37:55 AM
At that point you run the risk of getting punched in the face by SR touch spells.

And you wouldn't run that risk that much anyway.

D&D has no official called shot system that I know of since it is assumed you're always trying to make the best hit possible, but the armors are illustrated as having helmets and such even though there's never talk of needing helmets (because there are no "headshots").

So "punched in the face" sounds really effective until your bare knuckles meet steel visor, or worse, armor spikes.

Fist of Stone
What? Did you hear something?

Basically the game suggests "describe your action after you resolve it."

So you CAN be like the dozens of roleplayers I've suffered who talk about how they're going to do flip over and kick this guy right before they stab that guy "IN THE FACE" (Always in the face or in the nuts), and then they roll a 2 with their attack bonus of 2 and just wasted everyone's time.



Or you can successfully make your melee touch attack and successfully overcome their SR, at which point the GM says "Wow, you must've punched him in the face." After the two 2s the GM just says "Miss" and you've thankfully wasted no more time than you had to describing your kung-fu sorceror.

It's lame watching casters try to act like monks, anyway. It shows that what they really wanted to play was a monk, and that they aren't playing their caster right (Nothing shows that the monk can be played like a monk).
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Sunic_Flames on January 21, 2011, 10:38:42 AM
To the two mouth breathing fuckwits whining and flailing about me: Hi Welcome and GFY.

To everyone else: Continue on.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Barbarossa on January 21, 2011, 11:23:27 AM
To the two mouth breathing fuckwits whining and flailing about me
Mouth breathing is not uncommon for people with stuffy noses. It does not imply anything except that the person in question has no access through their nasal passages. Also, if you think their comments don't apply to you at all, why respond to them?
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Shadowhunter on January 21, 2011, 01:15:07 PM
...Here we go again...

I didn't start the flamewar! (http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1907543)

I dearly wish there was a "Like" button right about now.
That.
Was.
Awesome.

That is all. Carry on.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Lycanthromancer on January 21, 2011, 03:22:44 PM
To the two mouth breathing fuckwits whining and flailing about me: Hi Welcome and GFY.

To everyone else: Continue on.
Please stop. You're just ruining everyone else's enjoyable conversation at this point. Either contribute to the conversation or kindly leave.

Otherwise, I may get angry.

And you won't like me when I'm angry. [/B. Banner]
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Pimpforged on January 21, 2011, 04:19:40 PM
How about a 2 AC jump from light to medium, a 4 AC jump from medium to heavy, and the "Half the AC is DR instead" rule from UA?

This would make fullplate something to be reckoned with as it and a tower shield would give impressive protection, to the tune of 14 AC and 6 DR.

Math:
12 AC Fullplate becomes 6 AC fullplate with 6 DR
8 AC tower shield stays where it is.


BTW, this is only for fighters, as a "good stuff" for one of his dead levels.
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10638.msg363851#msg363851 ;-)
I'd like it to be an effective form of proficiency, as the current one is a joke.

Revised Ideas:

•AP Medium gives you the +2 to wearing medium, but requires 5 BAB to gain the bonus?
•AP Heavy gives you the +4 to wearing heavy, but requires 10 BAB?
•AP Exotic gives you a +6 to wearing Exotic, but requires 15 BAB?

These revised rules allow a gish to qualify if they try hard enough, but a fighter gets the benefits automatically as he reaches the BAB benchmarks.

I think something like this would work best, If you jack up armor to the point where it will be relevant at high lvls, It will be far too good at low ones. The only way to make it scale properly seems to be to use BAB.

I like the idea of making the different materials better, but getting SR from it seems odd to me. Maybe a bonus on reflex saves? The armor protects your body better from the fireball than the wizard's robes? (Not that fireballs are particularly relevant, you can usually just shrug them off anyway, but it seems a touch more realistic than non-magical armor granting SR)

Edit: Maybe just make adamantine's DR better? Maybe scale with BAB?
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Nytemare3701 on January 21, 2011, 04:35:33 PM
Maybe just make adamantine's DR better? Maybe scale with BAB?

Alright, how about this:

Adamantine armor grants the following bonuses by armor type:
•Medium Armor: +2 DR
•Heavy Armor: +4 DR
•Exotic Armor: +6 DR
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Mixster on January 21, 2011, 04:37:51 PM
How about a 2 AC jump from light to medium, a 4 AC jump from medium to heavy, and the "Half the AC is DR instead" rule from UA?

This would make fullplate something to be reckoned with as it and a tower shield would give impressive protection, to the tune of 14 AC and 6 DR.

Math:
12 AC Fullplate becomes 6 AC fullplate with 6 DR
8 AC tower shield stays where it is.


BTW, this is only for fighters, as a "good stuff" for one of his dead levels.
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10638.msg363851#msg363851 ;-)
I'd like it to be an effective form of proficiency, as the current one is a joke.

Revised Ideas:

•AP Medium gives you the +2 to wearing medium, but requires 5 BAB to gain the bonus?
•AP Heavy gives you the +4 to wearing heavy, but requires 10 BAB?
•AP Exotic gives you a +6 to wearing Exotic, but requires 15 BAB?

These revised rules allow a gish to qualify if they try hard enough, but a fighter gets the benefits automatically as he reaches the BAB benchmarks.

I think something like this would work best, If you jack up armor to the point where it will be relevant at high lvls, It will be far too good at low ones. The only way to make it scale properly seems to be to use BAB.

I like the idea of making the different materials better, but getting SR from it seems odd to me. Maybe a bonus on reflex saves? The armor protects your body better from the fireball than the wizard's robes? (Not that fireballs are particularly relevant, you can usually just shrug them off anyway, but it seems a touch more realistic than non-magical armor granting SR)

Edit: Maybe just make adamantine's DR better? Maybe scale with BAB?

How about even simpler:
Heavy armour gives extra AC equal to your BAB, Medium armour gives extra AC equal to half your BAB, and Light armour equal to one quarter. Exotic armour could give 1.5 times your BAB perhaps?

Would make your AC pretty high, but I don't think that's a bad thing entirely.

As long as you still have something to make it more resistant to spells.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Nytemare3701 on January 21, 2011, 04:39:59 PM
That might be a little TOO high. Level 20 wearing nothing but a cloak (it's an exotic armor in races of stone) gets +30 to AC just because.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: archangel.arcanis on January 21, 2011, 04:43:26 PM
How about a 2 AC jump from light to medium, a 4 AC jump from medium to heavy, and the "Half the AC is DR instead" rule from UA?

This would make fullplate something to be reckoned with as it and a tower shield would give impressive protection, to the tune of 14 AC and 6 DR.

Math:
12 AC Fullplate becomes 6 AC fullplate with 6 DR
8 AC tower shield stays where it is.


BTW, this is only for fighters, as a "good stuff" for one of his dead levels.
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10638.msg363851#msg363851 ;-)
I'd like it to be an effective form of proficiency, as the current one is a joke.

Revised Ideas:

•AP Medium gives you the +2 to wearing medium, but requires 5 BAB to gain the bonus?
•AP Heavy gives you the +4 to wearing heavy, but requires 10 BAB?
•AP Exotic gives you a +6 to wearing Exotic, but requires 15 BAB?

These revised rules allow a gish to qualify if they try hard enough, but a fighter gets the benefits automatically as he reaches the BAB benchmarks.

I think something like this would work best, If you jack up armor to the point where it will be relevant at high lvls, It will be far too good at low ones. The only way to make it scale properly seems to be to use BAB.

I like the idea of making the different materials better, but getting SR from it seems odd to me. Maybe a bonus on reflex saves? The armor protects your body better from the fireball than the wizard's robes? (Not that fireballs are particularly relevant, you can usually just shrug them off anyway, but it seems a touch more realistic than non-magical armor granting SR)

Edit: Maybe just make adamantine's DR better? Maybe scale with BAB?

How about even simpler:
Heavy armour gives extra AC equal to your BAB, Medium armour gives extra AC equal to half your BAB, and Light armour equal to one quarter. Exotic armour could give 1.5 times your BAB perhaps?

Would make your AC pretty high, but I don't think that's a bad thing entirely.

As long as you still have something to make it more resistant to spells.
At that point I'm getting +1 armor with lots of other features added to hopefully protect from spells. Or spending all of my gold on other items to protect or attack and leaving my armor to just MW.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Littha on January 21, 2011, 04:49:07 PM
Cold iron is noted for its magic nullifying properties, it makes perfect sense for it to give SR to me...
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Pimpforged on January 21, 2011, 05:01:13 PM
Cold iron is noted for its magic nullifying properties, it makes perfect sense for it to give SR to me...

Maybe I'm just biased against SR  :shrug
If it's too low, it's irrelevant and if it's too high, it causes more problems than it solves
And having a spot on your palm for friendly party members to cast on seems odd to me.
Maybe if it provoked an AOO on the armor wearer or something? (I know this sort of screws him over if he's trying to get healing but I just don't see the monsters standing around waiting while the fighter presents his palm to the cleric for healing)
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Littha on January 21, 2011, 05:03:19 PM
That is more a problem with SR being pointless than an argument against why armor wouldn't give it. I usually rule you can drop and regain your SR as a free action while I am DMing, it makes it at least a little more worthwhile.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Pimpforged on January 21, 2011, 05:07:51 PM

How about even simpler:
Heavy armour gives extra AC equal to your BAB, Medium armour gives extra AC equal to half your BAB, and Light armour equal to one quarter. Exotic armour could give 1.5 times your BAB perhaps?

Would make your AC pretty high, but I don't think that's a bad thing entirely.

As long as you still have something to make it more resistant to spells.

This seem a tad bit TOO high maybe cut those numbers down to 1/2 or 1/3 and add them to the original armor value?
Otherwise med. armor does nothing until at least level 2 and even then gives a lowly +1 AC
Light armor is even worse, you would have to be lvl 16 to get the benefits a chain shirt gives now.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: awaken DM golem on January 21, 2011, 05:11:09 PM
The medium armor feat itself needs to scale, as does heavy armor.

It has to compete with Full Casters and their metamagic feats.
(well , it doesn't have to)

It's more a problem of feat balance and class balance / tiers , etc ...
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: wotmaniac on January 21, 2011, 05:19:04 PM
more generally speaking, I have often thought about linking base AC to BAB .....
... the best that I've been able to come up with is use the better of 10 or BAB.
:shrug
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Pimpforged on January 21, 2011, 05:19:30 PM
That is more a problem with SR being pointless than an argument against why armor wouldn't give it.

True

I usually rule you can drop and regain your SR as a free action while I am DMing, it makes it at least a little more worthwhile.

I do as well, but I know a lot of DMs, including my current one  :shakefist, don't.

back to the topic, if you give special materials the ability to confer SR based off its armor as it stands now, it will suffer from the same problems armor does now.
At extremely low levels it will be good, at low lvls it will be decent, and at mid-high lvls it will be useless.
If you use some sort of armor scaling system based off BAB however and couple that with what JaronK described, it may be worthwhile (assuming the DM allows SR lowering/raising as a free action  ;))

If you do this however, I would strongly advise reevaluating the price (I don't know it off the top of my head, but I'm sure it's far to low for an item that grants  SR, particularly if it actually scales)
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: weenog on January 21, 2011, 06:14:11 PM
I don't know.  SR is good, but it's not that good.  What with spells like Assay Spell Resistance and True Casting, it's not that hard (though it does cast you actions, daily resources, and possibly long term resources if you're a caster with a limited spell list like Sorcerer) to be able to beat SR, unless it's very very high.  And there are plenty of spells (mainly conjurations) and indirect spell-based attacks (telekinesis to throw heavy things, etc) that don't allow SR at all.

It's certainly better to have SR than not to have it (assuming you can lower it to receive friendly spell effects when needed), but unless you have something like SR 30 + ECL it's not an I Win button against enemy casters.  Even if you do have SR that high, it's still not an I Win button (maybe against idiot evokers), it just requires them to be more picky about what they come at you with, and probably buys you some time.

Cold iron is already pricey, and at present it doesn't do jack except beat DR.  I don't think a major price hike is necessary nor appropriate for allowing cold iron armor that naturally helps its wearer defend against spells.  (The price, btw, is that it doubles the base cost of the item, and any magical enhancements cost an additional 2,000 gp.)  Maybe a small price hike, but I wouldn't call a price of 30,000 GP "far too low"  for a suit of +5 full plate that gives you a lot more than just +13 armor bonus to AC, excluding touch AC.  If you go by the standard WBL tables you can't afford that at all until ECL 9.  If you're not willing to spend more than half your wealth on it, it's pushed back to ECL 11.  If you really have your head on straight and understand that there's a lot more to adventuring than being mobile difficult terrain, and you're not willing to spend more than 1/4 your wealth on a single defensive item, your suit of plate isn't available until somewhere between 13th and 14th levels.

Of course you could just get a +1 full plate and hang special effects on it, and use Magic Vestment to boost its enhancement bonus to +5.  That would bring the price of the suit down to 6,000 gp (just out of reach for a 4th level character, and a dangerous amount of a 5th-level character's wealth), and each separate special effect you add would cost an extra 2,000 gp.  Trouble is you'd probably have to beat the armor's SR to cast Magic Vestment on it in the first place, and even if you didn't, all you're doing anymore is dragging spells in as the only real defense against spells, which is exactly what cold iron armor is trying to avoid in the first place.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: X-Codes on January 21, 2011, 06:42:26 PM
...Here we go again...

I didn't start the flamewar! (http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1907543)

I dearly wish there was a "Like" button right about now.
That.
Was.
Awesome.

That is all. Carry on.
+1.  Exceptional production quality for that website.

I'm not sure having AC scale with level is entirely appropriate.  Maybe using some variant on the Class Defense system in UA.  That way, armor gives an up-front bonus to AC to make characters less likely to be hit at low levels, and then the enhancement bonuses, special material bonuses, and class defense bonuses make AC as a whole scale, with the special materials having a greater impact with heavier armors.  For example, a Cold Iron suit of armor might give benefits like...

Light- SR 6+HD
Medium- SR 9+HD
Heavy- SR 12+HD

Also, ACP should be re-worked so that it's lower for characters that are proficient, but higher for those that aren't.  I like the idea of armor restricting movement if you don't know how to wear it effectively, but it's trivial to reduce a suit of armor's ACP by 3, and with investment you can likely drop it by 6 or 7.  Note that Full Plate has an ACP of -6, meaning that you can eventually make a suit of Full Plate that there's no penalty to wear without proficiency.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Bloody Initiate on January 21, 2011, 06:45:32 PM
Cold iron is noted for its magic nullifying properties, it makes perfect sense for it to give SR to me...

Maybe I'm just biased against SR  :shrug
If it's too low, it's irrelevant and if it's too high, it causes more problems than it solves
And having a spot on your palm for friendly party members to cast on seems odd to me.
Maybe if it provoked an AOO on the armor wearer or something? (I know this sort of screws him over if he's trying to get healing but I just don't see the monsters standing around waiting while the fighter presents his palm to the cleric for healing)

You're making the mistake that WotC made all along that screwed the fighters while empowering the mages.

You're hitting the fighter with the reality bat, and you're requiring NO such explanation from the caster.

It seems odd to you that full plate actually isn't metal all around (it ISN'T) yet it doesn't seem odd to you that casters can summon hentaicles on a whim to gang rape said full plate guy?

If mundanes are going to have nice things, they need as much freedom as casters were given.

Also I said "reality bat" but what I meant is "your-perception-of-reality bat" because you're feeling odd about something that's 100% real and 100% reasonable. Gauntlets were rarely pure metal gloves, they were often just plating on the outside so that the person wearing the armor could still grip things.

Since it's a free action to take your hand off your weapon and a free action to put it back on, it's perfectly reasonable that a fighter could take his hand off his blade to high-five his caster buddy.

BTW, I love the avatar AND then name ;)
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Sunic_Flames on January 21, 2011, 08:16:17 PM
To the two mouth breathing fuckwits whining and flailing about me: Hi Welcome and GFY.

To everyone else: Continue on.
Please stop. You're just ruining everyone else's enjoyable conversation at this point. Either contribute to the conversation or kindly leave.

Otherwise, I may get angry.

And you won't like me when I'm angry. [/B. Banner]

Hi Welcome

In case you're still missing the point, all you have to do is stop bringing me into this thread and I'll stop being in it. That means do not respond. After all, I've already answered the question.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: weenog on January 21, 2011, 08:19:39 PM
If you insist on having the last word, at least try to make it one worth reading.  You're like a 10 year old thinking he rules the playground because he was able to spout nonsense longer than anyone else.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: JaronK on January 21, 2011, 08:56:35 PM
I don't like pumping the AC bonus of armor too high, because AC is mostly targeted by the very people we want to help: melees.  The Cold Iron thing, however, is awesome: it makes life harder for casters and makes melees (slightly) more effective against casters.  That's solid.

I also like the idea of the categories of armor themselves giving bonuses, as it makes having proficiency better and makes Mithral not as ridiculous.  I'll start with my original idea, and then add in more inspired by (or stolen wholesale from) this thread.

1:  Medium Armor gives DR/Adamantine or Precision equal to half its total AC bonus (including Enchantments, Magic Vestment, etc).  Heavy Armor gives DR/Adamantine or Precision equal to its total AC bonus.  DR from all sources stacks, though it may be partially bypassed (so a creature with DR 5/Adamantine and DR 5/Lawful would ignore the first 10 damage from most attacks, 5 damage from Adamantine or Lawful attacks, and no damage from Adamantine Lawful attacks).  DR can never reduce damage below 1 (this is mostly to avoid 3rd level Full Plate guys being invincible).  The Precision thing is so Rogues aren't horribly screwed... they're sneaking past the armor.  Since most monsters don't deal precision damage, this should be too bad. 

2:  Medium Armor grants a +2 bonus to reflex saves against area effects such as bursts (similar to the cover bonus).  This does not work against spread effects.  Heavy Armor grants a +4 bonus to reflex saves against the same.  Heavy Shields increase this by one step, giving Medium a +4 and Heavy a +8 with Improved Evasion (yay for making shields more useful).

3:  Adamantine (and Starmetal) armor changes the armor DR to X/Precision.  Gives DR 1/Precision to Light Armor, increases the DR of Medium Armor by 2, and increases the DR of Heavy Armor by 3.

4:  Cold Iron armor gives SR equal to twice its total armor bonus, which the wearer can chose to ignore when touched by the caster of a spell.  It also gives a +2 to saves vs spells, spell like abilities, and supernatural abilities on Light armor, +4 on Medium Armor, and +6 on Heavy Armor.  With those bonuses it might even be worth the doubled enchanting cost.

You can give similar type scaling bonuses to other special materials and generally boost what these materials do, so for example Flame Touched Iron might give a +3 Resistance Bonus on saves vs the spells, spell like abilities, and supernatural abilities of Evil Outsiders for Light Armor, +6 for Medium, and +9 for Heavy.

And if you then sped up mundane crafting times so people could craft stuff quickly, Fighters could actually build half decent gear for themselves (to an extent).

JaronK
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: veekie on January 21, 2011, 09:01:15 PM
Hmm, how about this instead.

1) All armor grants DR/adamantine instead of AC(as a base)
2) Only Medium and Heavy armor grant AC(again, as a base), before adjusting for mithril
3) Characters proficient with an armor gain armor AC based on their BAB
4) Enhancement bonuses to armor increase the AC.
5) Armor bonuses from spells become DR instead at the same(unfavorable) rate. This mostly means Mage Armor is now DR 4/adamantine instead of +4 AC.
6) Adamantine makes the DR become Hardness
7) Cold Iron armor reduces the CL of spells by an amount depending on armor weight for the purpose of determining effects on the armored character. It also grants a save bonus.

EDIT:
Well, ffff, ninjaed by JaronK
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Lycanthromancer on January 21, 2011, 09:20:40 PM
EDIT:
Well, ffff, factotum'd by JaronK
Fix'd.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: X-Codes on January 21, 2011, 10:41:59 PM
If you insist on having the last word, at least try to make it one worth reading.  You're like a 10 year old thinking he rules the playground because he was able to spout nonsense longer than anyone else.
I was thinking 8-year-old ginger... or perhaps the real Sunic Flames lent his BG account to his special needs nephew or something.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: JaronK on January 21, 2011, 10:48:42 PM
EDIT:
Well, ffff, factotum'd by JaronK
Fix'd.

Thanks.  I hate playing Ninjas.

And hey!  No insulting gingers!  One of my girls is a ginger!

JaronK
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: X-Codes on January 21, 2011, 10:51:09 PM
EDIT:
Well, ffff, factotum'd by JaronK
Fix'd.

Thanks.  I hate playing Ninjas.

And hey!  No insulting gingers!  One of my girls is a ginger!

JaronK
Special needs nephew it is!  :P
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: JaronK on January 22, 2011, 03:24:46 AM
Got no nephews.  Go nuts.

JaronK
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: GawainBS on January 22, 2011, 07:55:27 AM
EDIT:
Well, ffff, factotum'd by JaronK
Fix'd.

Thanks.  I hate playing Ninjas.

And hey!  No insulting gingers!  One of my girls is a ginger!

JaronK

Is she legal yet?  :smirk
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: JaronK on January 22, 2011, 07:58:12 AM
Is she legal yet?  :smirk

I should hope so.  I didn't say daughter...   :D

JaronK
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: GawainBS on January 22, 2011, 10:21:36 AM
Pics or didn't happen!
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Mixster on January 22, 2011, 03:50:30 PM
I'm a ginger too! What's with the ginger hate!?  :shakefist Just because we've sold our souls to Pazuzu for awesome.

I agree on the point that increasing AC makes it harder for melee beatsticks, but then again, these changes wouldn't affect things that doesn't wear armour, like monsters.

When I said AC equal to BAB, I meant adding it to what it already gives.

And yes, you could get +30 something AC with a cloak, that might make the fighter actually hard enough to hit that the monsters would have troubles with it. It also makes ramping up your AC to the degree where it makes you useless to the others in the group quite meaningless.

But perhaps letting it scale with BAB a bit slower is a good idea. But perhaps just doing something to make it not as easy to bypass AC with spells would be a good idea.

If you insist on having the last word, at least try to make it one worth reading.  You're like a 10 year old thinking he rules the playground because he was able to spout nonsense longer than anyone else.
I was thinking 8-year-old ginger... or perhaps the real Sunic Flames lent his BG account to his special needs nephew or something.
Just ignore him, and stop feeding the troll. He is just a troll, and a bad one at that.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Sunic_Flames on January 22, 2011, 04:55:36 PM
Herp derp derp herp derp herp?
Herp derp herp derp herp derp.

Fixed. Now stop fucking whining.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: X-Codes on January 22, 2011, 05:19:26 PM
Pics or didn't happen!
It's unreasonable for the guy to have a girlfriend... but a daughter you can totally buy?  :lol
If you insist on having the last word, at least try to make it one worth reading.  You're like a 10 year old thinking he rules the playground because he was able to spout nonsense longer than anyone else.
I was thinking 8-year-old ginger... or perhaps the real Sunic Flames lent his BG account to his special needs nephew or something.
Just ignore him, and stop feeding the troll. He is just a troll, and a bad one at that.
I'm fully capable of mocking him and ignoring him at the same time.  It might even make him rage harder, which is potentially entertaining.

As for making it harder to bypass AC, I think that's where a Class-based Defense bonus can help also.  Have it apply to both touch and FF attacks and scale at a slightly slower rate than BAB (the best rates should probably be about 2/3 BAB, or maybe 1/2 BAB, and classes like Wizards should only get 1/4 or less).  The purpose there isn't to make every single attack miss, but more to making iterative attacks miss and allowing enemies to PA for less and maintain accuracy.  The various magical buffs all scale at roughly the same rate, and even the occasional ridiculous spell like Wraithstrike is made less effective by the Defense bonus applying to it.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Bloody Initiate on January 22, 2011, 05:52:37 PM
I liked the concept of the class defense bonus a LOT but it was the execution where they failed.

It just makes good sense that a level 20 dude is harder to hit when naked than a level 1 dude when naked. The fact that fighters who were stripped of equipment have to rely on the combat expertise feat is just stupid (It's also stupid that it's a feat and not just freely available to full BAB classes)
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Bauglir on January 22, 2011, 05:56:23 PM
If you insist on having the last word, at least try to make it one worth reading.  You're like a 10 year old thinking he rules the playground because he was able to spout nonsense longer than anyone else.
I was thinking 8-year-old ginger... or perhaps the real Sunic Flames lent his BG account to his special needs nephew or something.
Just ignore him, and stop feeding the troll. He is just a troll, and a bad one at that.
I'm fully capable of mocking him and ignoring him at the same time.  It might even make him rage harder, which is potentially entertaining.

I'm not sure "ignore" means what you think it means. If you're giving him attention of any kind, even just to flip him off, you're not ignoring him. Just don't acknowledge his existence. He doesn't actually expect anybody to stop responding to him.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: wotmaniac on January 22, 2011, 06:29:42 PM
If you insist on having the last word, at least try to make it one worth reading.  You're like a 10 year old thinking he rules the playground because he was able to spout nonsense longer than anyone else.
I was thinking 8-year-old ginger... or perhaps the real Sunic Flames lent his BG account to his special needs nephew or something.
Just ignore him, and stop feeding the troll. He is just a troll, and a bad one at that.
I'm fully capable of mocking him and ignoring him at the same time.  It might even make him rage harder, which is potentially entertaining.

I'm not sure "ignore" means what you think it means. If you're giving him attention of any kind, even just to flip him off, you're not ignoring him. Just don't acknowledge his existence. He doesn't actually expect anybody to stop responding to him.
well, you can ignore somebody and still talk about them.  I's even more of a rebuke to speak disapprovingly about someone in their presence while still not directly interacting with them.
I think we should take note of Dr. Karen Bierman's observations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_rejection#Rejection_in_childhood). :)
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Lycanthromancer on January 22, 2011, 06:37:49 PM
EDIT:
Well, ffff, factotum'd by JaronK
Fix'd.

Thanks.  I hate playing Ninjas.

JaronK
At least you don't hate me for what I'm doing to your name.

But then, you haven't read the whole story yet...
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: GawainBS on January 22, 2011, 07:56:26 PM
Pics or didn't happen!


It's that I seem to recall that JaronK said "One of my girlS". Several girlfriends at the same time tend to not mix well. ;)
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Nytemare3701 on January 22, 2011, 08:03:01 PM
He doesn't have girlfriends, he has bitches. JaronK's a pimp dontcha know.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: JaronK on January 22, 2011, 08:13:24 PM
Pics or didn't happen!


It's that I seem to recall that JaronK said "One of my girlS". Several girlfriends at the same time tend to not mix well. ;)

Polyamory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyamory).  But I think that's enough on the topic of my personal life.  Quick, look, Sunic's flaming again!  Get him guys!

JaronK
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: The_Mad_Linguist on January 22, 2011, 08:15:11 PM
He doesn't have girlfriends, he has bitches. JaronK's a pimp dontcha know.
(http://wizards.com/dnd/images/compscoundrel_gallery/102037.jpg)
Pictured: Upper right: JaronK
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: X-Codes on January 22, 2011, 10:05:19 PM
Pics or didn't happen!


It's that I seem to recall that JaronK said "One of my girlS". Several girlfriends at the same time tend to not mix well. ;)

Polyamory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyamory).  But I think that's enough on the topic of my personal life.  Quick, look, Sunic's flaming again!  Get him guys!

JaronK
If we could summarize this post into a funny picture and submit it to Cheezburger network, it would go up on the front page under the title of "Distraction WIN!"
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: dark_samuari on January 22, 2011, 10:55:01 PM
Hey guys look, it's more dumbfucks whining and flailing at me like cracked windmills, instead of taking the not so subtle hint to SHUT THE FUCK UP and the flames will stop.

Also, Hi Welcome Jaron.

Sunic are you afraid of windmills?

Sunic, are you Don Quixote!?!?
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: lans on January 22, 2011, 11:33:12 PM
The fact that fighters who were stripped of equipment have to rely on the combat expertise feat is just stupid (It's also stupid that it's a feat and not just freely available to full BAB classes)
If you think about it, Expertise is just an improved fighting defensively, and thus makes sense as a feat.
If you think about it more you'll realize that fighting defensively sucks 9/10 times and should be improved.
So make fighting defensively work like Expertise
Make Expertise give a penalty to adjacent(with in reach?) enemies attacks, and a bonus to your AC vs nonadjacent enemies(WiR?).
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Nytemare3701 on January 22, 2011, 11:37:02 PM
The fact that fighters who were stripped of equipment have to rely on the combat expertise feat is just stupid (It's also stupid that it's a feat and not just freely available to full BAB classes)
If you think about it, Expertise is just an improved fighting defensively, and thus makes sense as a feat.
If you think about it more you'll realize that fighting defensively sucks 9/10 times and should be improved.
So make fighting defensively work like Expertise
Make Expertise give a penalty to adjacent(with in reach?) enemies attacks, and a bonus to your AC vs nonadjacent enemies(WiR?).

Easy enough, Just give make fighting defensively work as combat expertise (capped at your BAB). The new combat expertise would do one of the following:

• Retain 1/2 your BAB (so the 10 BAB fighter gets to keep 5 of it and still get 10 AC)
• Allow -BAB equal to half your original BAB. (so the BAB 10 fighter could get 15 AC at the cost of a -15 to attack)

You guys duke it out over which one would be more balanced.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: lans on January 22, 2011, 11:48:16 PM
The fact that fighters who were stripped of equipment have to rely on the combat expertise feat is just stupid (It's also stupid that it's a feat and not just freely available to full BAB classes)
If you think about it, Expertise is just an improved fighting defensively, and thus makes sense as a feat.
If you think about it more you'll realize that fighting defensively sucks 9/10 times and should be improved.
So make fighting defensively work like Expertise
Make Expertise give a penalty to adjacent(with in reach?) enemies attacks, and a bonus to your AC vs nonadjacent enemies(WiR?).

Easy enough, Just give make fighting defensively work as combat expertise (capped at your BAB). The new combat expertise would do one of the following:

• Retain 1/2 your BAB (so the 10 BAB fighter gets to keep 5 of it and still get 10 AC)
• Allow -BAB equal to half your original BAB. (so the BAB 10 fighter could get 15 AC at the cost of a -15 to attack)

You guys duke it out over which one would be more balanced.
I wanted to make it more like Shared Defense, but more offensive. IE The archer is trying to kill the mayor who has 2hp, and you won't let him.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Nytemare3701 on January 22, 2011, 11:52:37 PM
That would be a rewrite to one of the shield feats. Combat Expertise has nothing to do with raising the AC of others. I'll add a "Superior Combat Expertise" feat that allows that though. It seems like a valid tactic that really doesn't get any love.

EDIT: made a thread for it in the homebrew section.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: veekie on January 23, 2011, 01:45:15 AM
Pics or didn't happen!
It's unreasonable for the guy to have a girlfriend... but a daughter you can totally buy?  :lol
If you insist on having the last word, at least try to make it one worth reading.  You're like a 10 year old thinking he rules the playground because he was able to spout nonsense longer than anyone else.
I was thinking 8-year-old ginger... or perhaps the real Sunic Flames lent his BG account to his special needs nephew or something.
Just ignore him, and stop feeding the troll. He is just a troll, and a bad one at that.
I'm fully capable of mocking him and ignoring him at the same time.  It might even make him rage harder, which is potentially entertaining.

As for making it harder to bypass AC, I think that's where a Class-based Defense bonus can help also.  Have it apply to both touch and FF attacks and scale at a slightly slower rate than BAB (the best rates should probably be about 2/3 BAB, or maybe 1/2 BAB, and classes like Wizards should only get 1/4 or less).  The purpose there isn't to make every single attack miss, but more to making iterative attacks miss and allowing enemies to PA for less and maintain accuracy.  The various magical buffs all scale at roughly the same rate, and even the occasional ridiculous spell like Wraithstrike is made less effective by the Defense bonus applying to it.
Class Defense bonus always seems like one of the ideas that should have been in from the start. Who thought it was a good idea for high level characters to get no better at evading anyway?

Hmm. So the following in combination.
Armor -> DR and material benefits(i.e. admant giving Hardness instead of DR/adamant, cold iron giving bonuses to resisting magic) only. This includes magical sources of Armor bonuses.
Class Defense bonus(NOT based off armor proficiencies or BAB, give three progressions and assign one to each class)
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: X-Codes on January 23, 2011, 04:16:03 AM
Hey guys look, it's more dumbfucks whining and flailing at me like cracked windmills, instead of taking the not so subtle hint to SHUT THE FUCK UP and the flames will stop.

Also, Hi Welcome Jaron.

Sunic are you afraid of windmills?

Sunic, are you Don Quixote!?!?
Sunic isn't cool enough to be Don Quixote.  I mean, not even Sancho Panza buys his shit.

Class Defense bonus always seems like one of the ideas that should have been in from the start. Who thought it was a good idea for high level characters to get no better at evading anyway?

Hmm. So the following in combination.
Armor -> DR and material benefits(i.e. admant giving Hardness instead of DR/adamant, cold iron giving bonuses to resisting magic) only. This includes magical sources of Armor bonuses.
Class Defense bonus(NOT based off armor proficiencies or BAB, give three progressions and assign one to each class)
Actually, I think Armor should give AC as well.  The scale should be something like this:

@ Level 1: Strength & Misc Mods give ~+5 bonus to attacks.  Exceptional characters hit better, lousy ones hit worse.
Cheap Light Armor + some Dex gives about +5 to AC, more expensive Light Armor might give a couple points more.
Cheap Medium Armor gives about +5 to AC, more expensive Medium armor gives a little more, and some Dex can also improve it.
Cheap Heavy Armor gives about +9 to AC, but really doesn't allow for Dex at all.
Shields give a flat bonus to AC.  Magic shields don't improve the AC bonus given by a shield.  Shields are enhanced strictly as weapons, with a few shield-specific special abilities.  Shields also apply to touch AC.

Scaling: BAB goes up at 3/4 or full levels, compared to 1/2 or 2/3 for less defensively-minded characters.
Attack rolls gain enhancement bonuses and morale bonuses.
AC gains enhancement bonuses, natural armor bonuses, and deflection bonuses.

So an average attacker at level 1 has a +5 bonus to attacks vs. an average AC of 16. (hits on 11+)
An average attacker at level 20 has a +35 bonus to attacks vs. an average AC of 44. (hits on 9+)
Numbers on both sides are increased by slight variations, like increasing Strength and Dexterity scores, other sources of attack modifiers like insight bonuses, and so on.  That's where CO comes into play.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: GawainBS on January 23, 2011, 06:39:40 AM
Pics or didn't happen!


It's that I seem to recall that JaronK said "One of my girlS". Several girlfriends at the same time tend to not mix well. ;)

Polyamory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyamory).  But I think that's enough on the topic of my personal life.  Quick, look, Sunic's flaming again!  Get him guys!

JaronK

Brave, very brave...  ;)
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Gods_Trick on January 23, 2011, 08:46:45 AM

Sunic are you afraid of windmills?

Sunic, are you Don Quixote!?!?

Dark, I sincerely ask you to please stop making me laugh out loud so hard when I'm sneaking peeks at BG from my lectures  :lol
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Sunic_Flames on January 23, 2011, 10:25:35 AM
Hey guys look, it's more dumbfucks whining and flailing at me like cracked windmills, instead of taking the not so subtle hint to SHUT THE FUCK UP and the flames will stop.

Also, Hi Welcome Jaron.

Sunic are you afraid of windmills?

Sunic, are you Don Quixote!?!?

Real world picture of one of the fail trolls who will not STFU and GFY:

(http://captionsearch.com/pix/vvss9ximab.jpg)
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Bozwevial on January 23, 2011, 03:51:35 PM
You know, that guy's glasses don't look very well-made. The way the lens is attached to the frame would probably interfere with your eyesight.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: X-Codes on January 23, 2011, 04:08:24 PM
Hey guys look, it's more dumbfucks whining and flailing at me like cracked windmills, instead of taking the not so subtle hint to SHUT THE FUCK UP and the flames will stop.

Also, Hi Welcome Jaron.

Sunic are you afraid of windmills?

Sunic, are you Don Quixote!?!?

Real world picture of one of the fail trolls who will not STFU and GFY:
Wouldn't that make your argument invalid?
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Lycanthromancer on January 23, 2011, 06:41:43 PM
Polyamory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyamory).  But I think that's enough on the topic of my personal life. 
Wow. That's irony, considering that it's instrumental in that story I'm writing using your handle...

Quick, look, Sunic's flaming again!  Get him guys!

JaronK
It's in his name, after all.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: dark_samuari on January 23, 2011, 07:09:02 PM
Man I wish I had a beard that awesome... Instead all I have is something like this:

(http://www.blogcdn.com/www.joystiq.com/media/2006/11/jesus_pederass_lebowski_lg.jpg)
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Lycanthromancer on January 23, 2011, 07:15:22 PM
Man I wish I had a beard that awesome... Instead all I have is something like this:
What, the face that makes him look like a terrorist, or the guy groping him?
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Bozwevial on January 23, 2011, 07:31:13 PM
Man I wish I had a beard that awesome... Instead all I have is something like this:
What, the face that makes him look like a terrorist, or the guy groping him?
Nobody fucks with the Jesus.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Lycanthromancer on January 23, 2011, 07:35:08 PM
Man I wish I had a beard that awesome... Instead all I have is something like this:
What, the face that makes him look like a terrorist, or the guy groping him?
Nobody fucks with the Jesus.
I think you mean Mary.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: X-Codes on January 23, 2011, 07:37:42 PM
Man I wish I had a beard that awesome... Instead all I have is something like this:
What, the face that makes him look like a terrorist, or the guy groping him?
Nobody fucks with the Jesus.
I think you mean Mary.
No, he means the Jesus.  Maybe someone can mix you up a white russian and explain it to you.  :P
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Lycanthromancer on January 23, 2011, 07:41:24 PM
Man I wish I had a beard that awesome... Instead all I have is something like this:
What, the face that makes him look like a terrorist, or the guy groping him?
Nobody fucks with the Jesus.
I think you mean Mary.
No, he means the Jesus.  Maybe someone can mix you up a white russian and explain it to you.  :P
Nobody fucks with Mary, either.

Otherwise she wouldn't have gotten preggers.

...And yes, I'm fully aware of how much sense that doesn't make.

Talk to the cultists.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Mixster on January 23, 2011, 08:17:40 PM
Man I wish I had a beard that awesome... Instead all I have is something like this:
What, the face that makes him look like a terrorist, or the guy groping him?
Nobody fucks with the Jesus.
I think you mean Mary.
No, he means the Jesus.  Maybe someone can mix you up a white russian and explain it to you.  :P
Nobody fucks with Mary, either.

Otherwise she wouldn't have gotten preggers.

...And yes, I'm fully aware of how much sense that doesn't make.

Talk to the cultists.

A way out west there was a fella, fella I want to tell you about, fella by the name of Jeff Lebowski.  At least, that was the handle his lovin' parents gave him, but he never had much use for it himself.  This Lebowski, he called himself the Dude.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: veekie on January 24, 2011, 12:13:01 AM
Hey guys look, it's more dumbfucks whining and flailing at me like cracked windmills, instead of taking the not so subtle hint to SHUT THE FUCK UP and the flames will stop.

Also, Hi Welcome Jaron.

Sunic are you afraid of windmills?

Sunic, are you Don Quixote!?!?
Sunic isn't cool enough to be Don Quixote.  I mean, not even Sancho Panza buys his shit.

Class Defense bonus always seems like one of the ideas that should have been in from the start. Who thought it was a good idea for high level characters to get no better at evading anyway?

Hmm. So the following in combination.
Armor -> DR and material benefits(i.e. admant giving Hardness instead of DR/adamant, cold iron giving bonuses to resisting magic) only. This includes magical sources of Armor bonuses.
Class Defense bonus(NOT based off armor proficiencies or BAB, give three progressions and assign one to each class)
Actually, I think Armor should give AC as well.  The scale should be something like this:

@ Level 1: Strength & Misc Mods give ~+5 bonus to attacks.  Exceptional characters hit better, lousy ones hit worse.
Cheap Light Armor + some Dex gives about +5 to AC, more expensive Light Armor might give a couple points more.
Cheap Medium Armor gives about +5 to AC, more expensive Medium armor gives a little more, and some Dex can also improve it.
Cheap Heavy Armor gives about +9 to AC, but really doesn't allow for Dex at all.
Shields give a flat bonus to AC.  Magic shields don't improve the AC bonus given by a shield.  Shields are enhanced strictly as weapons, with a few shield-specific special abilities.  Shields also apply to touch AC.

Scaling: BAB goes up at 3/4 or full levels, compared to 1/2 or 2/3 for less defensively-minded characters.
Attack rolls gain enhancement bonuses and morale bonuses.
AC gains enhancement bonuses, natural armor bonuses, and deflection bonuses.

So an average attacker at level 1 has a +5 bonus to attacks vs. an average AC of 16. (hits on 11+)
An average attacker at level 20 has a +35 bonus to attacks vs. an average AC of 44. (hits on 9+)
Numbers on both sides are increased by slight variations, like increasing Strength and Dexterity scores, other sources of attack modifiers like insight bonuses, and so on.  That's where CO comes into play.
Well, I mean to have the AC component largely come from class defense, strictly replacing Armor as an AC type.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: skydragonknight on January 24, 2011, 10:20:44 AM
Class Defense A-D

Class Defense A - Unarmored types = Class level
Class Defense B - Full BAB types = 3/4 class level
Class Defense C - Medium BAB = 1/2 class level
Class Defense D - Poor BAB = 1/4 class level

Armor: DR X/-, AC 1/2 X (round down) where X is normal AC value, including enhancements.

Gave the monk a slight edge in the evasiveness...because they'll need every little scrap they can get if armor wearers get DR.

Optional rule: To be realistic, DR could be slashing/bludgeoning/piercing depending on type. For example, Chain Shirt would be DR 4/-piercing (and +2 AC), because you have to use thrusting weapons to be most effective. Whereas plate mail being heavy is more vulnerable to bludgeoning since the force of the weapon pushes the armor into the wearer delivering the full force of the blow.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: X-Codes on January 24, 2011, 04:28:31 PM
Class Defense A-D

Class Defense A - Unarmored types = Class level
Class Defense B - Full BAB types = 3/4 class level
Class Defense C - Medium BAB = 1/2 class level
Class Defense D - Poor BAB = 1/4 class level

Armor: DR X/-, AC 1/2 X (round down) where X is normal AC value, including enhancements.

Gave the monk a slight edge in the evasiveness...because they'll need every little scrap they can get if armor wearers get DR.

Optional rule: To be realistic, DR could be slashing/bludgeoning/piercing depending on type. For example, Chain Shirt would be DR 4/-piercing (and +2 AC), because you have to use thrusting weapons to be most effective. Whereas plate mail being heavy is more vulnerable to bludgeoning since the force of the weapon pushes the armor into the wearer delivering the full force of the blow.
Top-end Defense bonus should absolutely *not* be full class levels.  You'd neuter every last ability that applies any penalty at all to attack rolls, including Power Attack.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: veekie on January 24, 2011, 09:18:00 PM
Actually, given that the only class that should get Category A Class Defense is the monk(who does have innate AC enhancers), you can just give them B and let their innates cover the rest.

For the matter, unlatch it from BAB(though its a decent rule of thumb), and make them class specific:
Fighters, Barbarians, Rogues, Monks, Paladins -> 3/4  class level, these are for the front liners and naturally evasive classes.
Clerics, Druids, Duskblades -> 1/2 class level, either for those who need not engage in close combat or who habitually rely on magic for defense while doing so.
Wizards, Sorcerors, Archivists ->1/4 class level, these don't belong in close combat.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: GawainBS on January 25, 2011, 02:04:21 PM
Actually, given that the only class that should get Category A Class Defense is the monk(who does have innate AC enhancers), you can just give them B and let their innates cover the rest.

For the matter, unlatch it from BAB(though its a decent rule of thumb), and make them class specific:
Fighters, Barbarians, Rogues, Monks, Paladins -> 3/4  class level, these are for the front liners and naturally evasive classes.
Clerics, Druids, Duskblades -> 1/2 class level, either for those who need not engage in close combat or who habitually rely on magic for defense while doing so.
Wizards, Sorcerors, Archivists ->1/4 class level, these don't belong in close combat.

How do Duskblades rely on magic for protection? I don't count the few spells that give deflection bonuses, since a) you'll probably buy a +5 ring and b) those cost spells known & actions.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: X-Codes on January 26, 2011, 02:53:36 AM
How do Duskblades rely on magic for protection? I don't count the few spells that give deflection bonuses, since a) you'll probably buy a +5 ring and b) those cost spells known & actions.
I rarely buy Deflection rings.  I don't think going from the +4 bonus of a Shield of Law/Holy Aura spell to the +5 bonus of a deflection ring is worth both the gold investment and the item slot.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: GawainBS on January 26, 2011, 01:32:28 PM
How do Duskblades rely on magic for protection? I don't count the few spells that give deflection bonuses, since a) you'll probably buy a +5 ring and b) those cost spells known & actions.
I rarely buy Deflection rings.  I don't think going from the +4 bonus of a Shield of Law/Holy Aura spell to the +5 bonus of a deflection ring is worth both the gold investment and the item slot.

Away from books, but I don't think those last an entire adventure day. Nor are they standard choosable by a Duskblade. The other casters have other spells to boost their defenses better, on top of a +5 Deflection bonus. (Miss Chances, other types of armour bonus, etc.)

So, I beg to differ and lump the Duskblade with the toprank.

Another issue would be the Psychic Warrior: a frontliner, naturally evasive, but on the other hand: impressive powers to boost his defense.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: X-Codes on January 26, 2011, 06:36:29 PM
They're both 8th-level Cleric spells.  They do have a short duration, yes, but target the entire group and are persistable with DMM.  I think the best part is the added save-or-suck effect that occurs when someone warded by the spell is hit.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: GawainBS on January 27, 2011, 01:15:33 PM
They're both 8th-level Cleric spells.  They do have a short duration, yes, but target the entire group and are persistable with DMM.  I think the best part is the added save-or-suck effect that occurs when someone warded by the spell is hit.

Still, I don't think you should judge the Duskblade as if they're standard issue for him. Why not do that for the Fighter, Paladin, etc then? Remember, some groups consider DMM the height of TO.  :banghead
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: X-Codes on January 27, 2011, 05:07:40 PM
They're both 8th-level Cleric spells.  They do have a short duration, yes, but target the entire group and are persistable with DMM.  I think the best part is the added save-or-suck effect that occurs when someone warded by the spell is hit.

Still, I don't think you should judge the Duskblade as if they're standard issue for him. Why not do that for the Fighter, Paladin, etc then? Remember, some groups consider DMM the height of TO.  :banghead

They're still good spells worth casting by a Cleric if DMM: Persist is banned.  Quicken rods are still available, afterall.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: GawainBS on January 27, 2011, 05:12:45 PM
I'm not saying that Clerics are good only because of DMM, just that classifing the Duskblade "to rely on Magic for defense" because Clerics can cast those spells, is a stretch too far. ;)
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: skydragonknight on January 27, 2011, 09:46:11 PM
Spamming Vampiric Touch could be considered defense.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Sunic_Flames on January 28, 2011, 03:44:12 PM
Spamming Vampiric Touch could be considered defense.

Except that it is a free action to cast Empowered Vampiric Touch.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: zugschef on January 28, 2011, 04:08:46 PM
what i don't like about damage reduction, though, is that it fucks over archers and casters give shit about your damage reduction...

thinking about it, damage reduction seems to be one of the true failures of the the d20 system.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Lycanthromancer on January 28, 2011, 04:24:11 PM
what i don't like about damage reduction, though, is that it fucks over archers and casters give shit about your damage reduction...

thinking about it, damage reduction seems to be one of the true failures of the the d20 system.
Hardness is both better and worse. It's really difficult to overcome it even with magic (though psionics can deal just fine), but only if you actually care about hp damage (and most casters don't).
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Bauglir on January 28, 2011, 05:15:50 PM
DR is one of those things that can make the game interesting by forcing you to figure out how to bypass it. It'd have a place in a balanced system, I think, but probably not as a ubiquitous ability that all monsters are expected to get as levels go up. The problem is that the people who are the least impacted by it (spellcasters) are already the most powerful in the game, and their own special "Monster arbitrarily fucks you over system", SR, is trivial to bypass or overcome. So really it's just another way of fucking over people that are already getting the short end of the stick, while caster-types get to continue being awesome.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: zugschef on January 28, 2011, 05:26:13 PM
DR is one of those things that can make the game interesting by forcing you to figure out how to bypass it. It'd have a place in a balanced system, I think, but probably not as a ubiquitous ability that all monsters are expected to get as levels go up. The problem is that the people who are the least impacted by it (spellcasters) are already the most powerful in the game, and their own special "Monster arbitrarily fucks you over system", SR, is trivial to bypass or overcome. So really it's just another way of fucking over people that are already getting the short end of the stick, while caster-types get to continue being awesome.
you have given yourself the answer to why i think damage reduction is made of failure. and btw, there is the problem with x/- and x/bludgeoning or slashing which archers will never be able to bypass... (unless they have a way to ignore DR alltogehter.)
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: The_Mad_Linguist on January 28, 2011, 05:28:50 PM
There are slashing and bludgeoning arrows.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: archangel.arcanis on January 28, 2011, 05:29:32 PM
DR is one of those things that can make the game interesting by forcing you to figure out how to bypass it. It'd have a place in a balanced system, I think, but probably not as a ubiquitous ability that all monsters are expected to get as levels go up. The problem is that the people who are the least impacted by it (spellcasters) are already the most powerful in the game, and their own special "Monster arbitrarily fucks you over system", SR, is trivial to bypass or overcome. So really it's just another way of fucking over people that are already getting the short end of the stick, while caster-types get to continue being awesome.
you have given yourself the answer to why i think damage reduction is made of failure. and btw, there is the problem with x/- and x/bludgeoning or slashing which archers will never be able to bypass... (unless they have a way to ignore DR alltogehter.)
There is a reason every archer I have made had a bow with force on it.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Sunic_Flames on January 28, 2011, 06:58:36 PM
Those points would be valid, except that DR is trivial to overcome also. It's called "Do enough damage to make the enemy actually care you are hitting them".

If you can do this, you won't care that you sometimes lose 5 or 10 of it (rarely higher). If you cannot, you have worse problems. DR is just an early warning system, really.

It was true in 3rd edition, when DR actually blocked a significant amount of damage but not in 3.5.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Bauglir on January 28, 2011, 07:26:47 PM
It still fucks over people who make a shitload of attacks in a round, such as a Totemist or a PsyWar who happens to take that particular route, or any archer build that makes use of things like the Splitting enhancement and other ways to multiply your attacks. In fact, DR seems to me to be the major reason those are regarded as generally (but not always) inferior to THF builds.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Rymosrac on January 28, 2011, 07:56:32 PM
Played in a game once which, as a houserule, converted every point of DR into a 5% reduction in damage from all attacks that did not bypass the DR. Seemed to work pretty well - though, again, DR is almost always a trivial effort to bypass.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: X-Codes on January 29, 2011, 12:14:45 AM
It still fucks over people who make a shitload of attacks in a round, such as a Totemist or a PsyWar who happens to take that particular route, or any archer build that makes use of things like the Splitting enhancement and other ways to multiply your attacks. In fact, DR seems to me to be the major reason those are regarded as generally (but not always) inferior to THF builds.
Nevermind that a reasonable amount of DR + the Elusive Target feat = bypass the DR or be unilaterally FUCKED.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Sunic_Flames on January 29, 2011, 11:13:33 AM
It still fucks over people who make a shitload of attacks in a round, such as a Totemist or a PsyWar who happens to take that particular route, or any archer build that makes use of things like the Splitting enhancement and other ways to multiply your attacks. In fact, DR seems to me to be the major reason those are regarded as generally (but not always) inferior to THF builds.

The major reason? No. Because even if you got past that, either by treating TWF as ignoring half of DR, or hell making it bypass all DR including DR/- you'd still have the problem of needing more stats, and more gold to do less damage with TWF. For Splitting the problem is similar - need specific weapon enchantments just to do it at all, more feats, and still do less damage than a melee build. Not to mention to do ranged DPS, you have to be within 30 feet, which rather defeats the point of using a ranged weapon in the first place. DR is admittedly not a problem, mostly because you need Force to not be auto negated by a Wind Wall anyways. The fact that also bypasses all DR is a bonus.

There's a reason I houseruled TWF so that you take one feat with no prereqs, and you get offhand attacks = mainhand attacks, so it automatically scales as your BAB goes up, your haste boots come online, and so forth. It still ends up inferior, but not by nearly as much. And the more gold was addressed by raising WBL 50%.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: lans on January 29, 2011, 11:26:43 AM
.
Quote
Not to mention to do ranged DPS, you have to be within 30 feet, which rather defeats the point of using a ranged weapon in the first place.

Only swift hunter needs to be with in 30 feet, fighters and cleric archers are just fine outside of 1 less hit and damage.

Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Bauglir on January 29, 2011, 01:10:55 PM
It still fucks over people who make a shitload of attacks in a round, such as a Totemist or a PsyWar who happens to take that particular route, or any archer build that makes use of things like the Splitting enhancement and other ways to multiply your attacks. In fact, DR seems to me to be the major reason those are regarded as generally (but not always) inferior to THF builds.

The major reason? No. Because even if you got past that, either by treating TWF as ignoring half of DR, or hell making it bypass all DR including DR/- you'd still have the problem of needing more stats, and more gold to do less damage with TWF. For Splitting the problem is similar - need specific weapon enchantments just to do it at all, more feats, and still do less damage than a melee build. Not to mention to do ranged DPS, you have to be within 30 feet, which rather defeats the point of using a ranged weapon in the first place. DR is admittedly not a problem, mostly because you need Force to not be auto negated by a Wind Wall anyways. The fact that also bypasses all DR is a bonus.

There's a reason I houseruled TWF so that you take one feat with no prereqs, and you get offhand attacks = mainhand attacks, so it automatically scales as your BAB goes up, your haste boots come online, and so forth. It still ends up inferior, but not by nearly as much. And the more gold was addressed by raising WBL 50%.

Eh, you're doing less damage, yeah. In my experience, both routes do enough damage to insta-gib an opponent if you heavily optimize them. If you don't, you don't have as many multipliers to THF. Unless you have a shitload of attacks that aren't bypassing DR, in which case the DR applies multiple times and your damage output decreases drastically as a result.

I do agree with your TWF houserule, though, I tend to do that myself in my games. So I suppose you're right, I should have said "a major reason" instead of "the major reason".
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Sunic_Flames on January 30, 2011, 09:59:25 AM
.
Quote
Not to mention to do ranged DPS, you have to be within 30 feet, which rather defeats the point of using a ranged weapon in the first place.

Only swift hunter needs to be with in 30 feet, fighters and cleric archers are just fine outside of 1 less hit and damage.



Fighters don't do enough damage, Clerics are better off being Clerics. Though technically they are the only ones not dependent on precision damage to do ranged damage.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: lans on January 30, 2011, 10:55:08 AM
.
Quote
Not to mention to do ranged DPS, you have to be within 30 feet, which rather defeats the point of using a ranged weapon in the first place.

Only swift hunter needs to be with in 30 feet, fighters and cleric archers are just fine outside of 1 less hit and damage.



Fighters don't do enough damage, Clerics are better off being Clerics. Though technically they are the only ones not dependent on precision damage to do ranged damage.
I'm pretty sure fighters do enough damage at low and high levels, add in the targeteer variant and it should be pretty good. The mid levels seem to be where the problem is usually.

Also charging is way easier to shut down than ranged combat. Ranged combat takes a 3rd level spell that takes a standard action to cast, while charging can be shut down by a 1st level spell that takes a swift action to cast, or  marbles, or a little bit of mud, grass a little too high, the enemy being airborne.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Sunic_Flames on January 30, 2011, 12:38:28 PM
The things that counter the counters are not hard to get. Meanwhile, all archers must have Force so they aren't shut down completely by Wind Wall and Force comes online well after Wind Wall.

Both are easy to shut down, but archers are easier to negate than beatsticks. There's also things that specifically add to AC vs ranged (which you get to block rays, and casually shut down archers as a side effect) and give a 50% miss chance vs ranged on the cheap that cannot be ignored by any effect except maybe Seeking. Which also becomes mandatory for the same reason.

Not even touching on the other problems of a Fighter archer here, such as being unable to see enemies that are at a distance to shoot at them.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: snakeman830 on January 30, 2011, 01:10:55 PM
Not even touching on the other problems of a Fighter archer here, such as being unable to see enemies that are at a distance to shoot at them.
Which is why I typically go Ranger for archery.  They get the most important feats for free and have the Spot checks to see their foe (plus their archery spells in spell compendium and other sources).
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Bauglir on January 30, 2011, 01:56:24 PM
Actually, just out of curiosity, what bit of the rules lets Force arrows overcome a Wind Wall? I guess you could argue that they're no longer arrows, but even so they still seem to have a 30% miss chance, unless you decide that "normal" means "mundane" and not "not massive" as implied by the parenthetical note. I dunno, it seems a bit dodgy, although it seems like a nice enough thing to do to let an archetype not autofail.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Mixster on January 30, 2011, 02:54:31 PM
What monster can cast wind wall? I can't think of any.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Maat_Mons on January 30, 2011, 03:20:56 PM
A quick search of the SRD reveals these monsters: androsphinx, brain collector, bralani, couatl, dragon (depending on age and type), dust mephit, elder titan, formian queen, ghaele, lammasu, nymph, planetar, rakshasa, solar, and trumpet archon.  Also, you could fight something with class levels. 
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Mixster on January 30, 2011, 03:34:27 PM
A quick search of the SRD reveals these monsters: androsphinx, brain collector, bralani, couatl, dragon (depending on age and type), dust mephit, elder titan, formian queen, ghaele, lammasu, nymph, planetar, rakshasa, solar, and trumpet archon.  Also, you could fight something with class levels. 

Yeah, but it sure beats relying on precision damage and therefore not being able to hurt oozes, undead, elementals and their associates.
So yeah, wind wall is bad for an archer, but on the other hand it is relatively rare to encounter.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: JaronK on January 30, 2011, 03:55:55 PM
Fighters don't do enough damage, Clerics are better off being Clerics. Though technically they are the only ones not dependent on precision damage to do ranged damage.

Having played with Fighter and Cleric archers quite a bit, this is wrong.  Fighter archers can do a LOT of damage... plenty to kill any enemy of anywhere near appropriate CR.  And Force is for overcoming DR, not Wind Wall... Wind Wall is a spell that basically takes archers out, but it's not like everyone has it, and Wind Wall itself can be bypassed simply by moving through it (yes, you'll need the ability to be maneuverable, but who doesn't?).  Fighters seem to be better archers in general (from a pure damage output standpoint) compared to anyone else until about level 10, where the Clerics begin to really take over.  It definitely does require a bit of optimization to make it work (Splitting Force bows, perhaps the Thug variant for enough skillpoints to take Educated and Knowledge Devotion, every archery feat you can get your hands on), but damage is not their problem.

JaronK
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Sunic_Flames on January 30, 2011, 04:03:54 PM
Not even touching on the other problems of a Fighter archer here, such as being unable to see enemies that are at a distance to shoot at them.
Which is why I typically go Ranger for archery.  They get the most important feats for free and have the Spot checks to see their foe (plus their archery spells in spell compendium and other sources).

Rangers have other problems, though Swift Hunters are fine (but have the range with lack of range problem).

Actually, just out of curiosity, what bit of the rules lets Force arrows overcome a Wind Wall? I guess you could argue that they're no longer arrows, but even so they still seem to have a 30% miss chance, unless you decide that "normal" means "mundane" and not "not massive" as implied by the parenthetical note. I dunno, it seems a bit dodgy, although it seems like a nice enough thing to do to let an archetype not autofail.

It's a force projectile, not an arrow/bolt and not a siege weapon. Same reason it bypasses all DR. It's still a +2 enchantment to counter a 3rd level spell.

As for moving through a Wind Wall, yeah sure, you can do that. You've now closed to the enemy, and are inside their Wind Wall, which probably took you more actions than it did for them to put the Wind Wall there. More to the point you have the ranged weapon sans range problem, as you are now close to them. So assuming you didn't spend the entire combat double moving, well you've still defeated the point of having a pewpewpew spec.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: JaronK on January 30, 2011, 04:33:27 PM
Considering you're now a physical fighty type next to a casty type, that's not really an issue.  The point of archery isn't to stay away from combat in general, but to be able to apply your damage to whereever it needs to be when it needs to be there while being able to position yourself in the best place to be, without those two places being the same.  If that means staying still and acting like an automated turret so be it.  If it means maneuvering around obstacles (including Wind Wall) so be it.  If it means staying back and attacking at a distance, so be it.  It certainly doesn't mean the point has been defeated if you move into a better position and unload firepower (though for obvious reasons a full attack based character doesn't want to move too much... but this is why getting a mount is such a good idea when doing this.  A simple medium sized flying mount for a small archer means you can be fully mobile while shooting, meaning wind wall costs them a standard action and only costs you a forced position change that you likely don't mind too much.

Me, I like using Desmoderu Hunting Bats as a basic mount, since in this sort of situation they can trip the caster who decided to throw up the wind wall, and that means even more actions they're losing if they tried that.

JaronK
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Sunic_Flames on January 30, 2011, 04:43:18 PM
Level:    Air 2, Clr 3, Drd 3, Rgr 2, Sor/Wiz 3.

So let's see here:

You are in melee range with a CoDzilla: Um yeah, you're losing that fight hardcore.
You are in close range with an arcane caster: They have the best defenses in the game, so they can dance through your pewpewpew like an Immortal Haruspex build.
You are in close range with a melee Ranger: Ok, you'll probably win this one.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: JaronK on January 30, 2011, 04:49:13 PM
I'm not sure a Wizard 5 is going to have great defenses when he's trying to throw up Wind Walls as the primary defensive tactic in such a situation.  Being next to a Halfling Fighter 5 on a Hunting Bat?  Not a very good position for such a caster (remember, Mirror Image is defeated by a single Alchemist's Fire).  Even a Cleric 5 isn't going to find such a position very comfortable.  Druid's probably okay though, as he probably IS a Hunting Bat.  Still, you're putting a lot of pressure on T1 enemies as a T5 and forcing them to burn spells and actions to deal with you.  I'd say you're doing your job admirably.

JaronK
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: X-Codes on January 30, 2011, 04:56:37 PM
Level:    Air 2, Clr 3, Drd 3, Rgr 2, Sor/Wiz 3.

So let's see here:

You are in melee range with a CoDzilla: Um yeah, you're losing that fight hardcore.
You are in close range with an arcane caster: They have the best defenses in the game, so they can dance through your pewpewpew like an Immortal Haruspex build.
You are in close range with a melee Ranger: Ok, you'll probably win this one.
If Arcane casters are already bulletproof as you claim, they why the hell would they cast Wind Wall in the first place?

Also, what if said Ranger is actually a Swift Hunter that wants to force you to come within 30' of him (or melee range, some Swift Hunters go that way, too, especially with CC Lion Totem Barbarian) and use the time you take traveling from point A to point B buffing up?

What if you, yourself, as an archer have some buffing options and spend your time traveling from point A to point B buffing up?  Even Fighters can drink potions and use wands/scrolls/staves.  Hell, maybe they went the Mounted Archery route and just have their Phantom Steed/Pegasus/Mercury Dragon mount run like hell through the windwall, allowing the archer to get free shots on the Wizard behind it?

Your problem, Sunic, is that you assume that everyone else is an idiot.  There's not only a rational response to all the bullshit you spew, there's a pretty damn good one.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: zugschef on January 30, 2011, 07:00:37 PM
Also, what if said Ranger is actually a Swift Hunter that wants to force you to come within 30' of him (or melee range, some Swift Hunters go that way, too, especially with CC Lion Totem Barbarian) and use the time you take traveling from point A to point B buffing up?
what if said ranger is a mystic wild-shaping ranger and tears you apart?
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Sunic_Flames on January 30, 2011, 08:23:18 PM
Well, if the Ranger is a Swift Hunter, I guess the Fighter loses there too. The rest is more lies and fail though MBF, so that in no way helps you to make your point. Quite the opposite.

There's also the classic Jaron response. So how is this Fighter 5 (lol Fighter 5, as if that's ever scary, and also lol at picking the minimum level) getting a hunting bat from the Book of Random Numbers? I already know what you will say to this, and I already have an lol counter ready for it. So by all means, say it. I dare you.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: X-Codes on January 30, 2011, 08:54:56 PM
Well, if the Ranger is a Swift Hunter, I guess the Fighter loses there too. The rest is more lies and fail though MBF, so that in no way helps you to make your point. Quite the opposite.

There's also the classic Jaron response. So how is this Fighter 5 (lol Fighter 5, as if that's ever scary, and also lol at picking the minimum level) getting a hunting bat from the Book of Random Numbers? I already know what you will say to this, and I already have an lol counter ready for it. So by all means, say it. I dare you.
Is your lol counter as effective as my pre-emptive retort to this entire post?

Your problem, Sunic, is that you assume that everyone else is an idiot.  There's not only a rational response to all the bullshit you spew, there's a pretty damn good one.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Kajhera on January 30, 2011, 08:55:38 PM
Well, if the Ranger is a Swift Hunter, I guess the Fighter loses there too. The rest is more lies and fail though MBF, so that in no way helps you to make your point. Quite the opposite.

There's also the classic Jaron response. So how is this Fighter 5 (lol Fighter 5, as if that's ever scary, and also lol at picking the minimum level) getting a hunting bat from the Book of Random Numbers? I already know what you will say to this, and I already have an lol counter ready for it. So by all means, say it. I dare you.

...Warbeast?
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: lans on January 30, 2011, 09:04:57 PM
The same place the Marshal got his Dire Elephant
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: JaronK on January 31, 2011, 12:56:47 AM
There's also the classic Jaron response. So how is this Fighter 5 (lol Fighter 5, as if that's ever scary, and also lol at picking the minimum level)

As opposed to Fighter 6, which is actually a lot stronger.  Would you have preferred that?  Do you really think I picked Fighter 5 because it's the super powered level for Fighters or something?  Nothing says overpowered like an odd numbered Fighter...

Quote
getting a hunting bat from the Book of Random Numbers? I already know what you will say to this, and I already have an lol counter ready for it. So by all means, say it. I dare you.

Well, the obvious response is "buy the thing, they're raised domestically.  See their entry.  Price can be found in the warbeast entry of the same book."  It'll run you a few hundred gp.   If you don't want (or can't get) a Hunting Bat, get something else, I don't care (something with a climb speed like those lizards in Drow of the Underdark if they're more appropriate to the campaign).  The point is to get whatever nice mobile mount you can get (preferably a medium mount with a small guy on the back, so it can really go everywhere).  We're talking about something that costs under a thousand gp here.

So what's so funny about buying a creature to ride on?  In pretty much every campaign there's going to be SOMETHING you can ride on that's capable of actually going where ever you're going.  The Hunting Bat is just the one I happen to like because it's cheap, domesticated, can fly, can trip things, and helps detect enemies easier.  If you can't find at least 10 other viable options, you're just not trying hard at all.  At higher levels buy something better that can take a hit or three.    Maybe even take the Dragon Cohort feat and ride around on a little Mercury Dragon for speed.  Whatever you chose, getting a mount for an archery Fighter is just common sense.  Doesn't work for skirmish based characters obviously, but you're not one so who cares?

JaronK
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Sunic_Flames on January 31, 2011, 11:20:04 AM
You've just activated my trap card!

The Wind Wall guy has a Magebred T-Rex for a fraction of his WBL. It eats you and your bat.

And this is why MM2 in general, and Warbeast and the mount rules in particular are complete and utter Epic Failures.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Kajhera on January 31, 2011, 01:35:01 PM
You've just activated my trap card!

The Wind Wall guy has a Magebred T-Rex for a fraction of his WBL. It eats you and your bat.

And this is why MM2 in general, and Warbeast and the mount rules in particular are complete and utter Epic Failures.

Yay, I was wondering what the response would be! For like a while. You go off somewhere?

Also you're going to have to make it a Warbeast T-Rex first anyway, since I'm pretty sure there aren't pricing rules on a normal T-Rex...

(warning: daydreaming tangent ahead)

So it's going to cost our good mage friend 2900gp.  :) Pretty cheap indeed, though the food costs add up I'm sure. The last time we tamed a T-Rex we had a heck of a time figuring out what to do with it, same with our latest hydra.

Yea, buying something 3 CRs more ... CR-ish than you is kinda weird. But we'll go with it for now.

But anyway, our mage friend is going to have around 2 3rd level spells prepared at this point. One of them's apparently wind wall, the other's apparently fly, because I can't imagine what *other* way a T-Rex would be useful here...

Do we have any good 2nd-level buffs on yet? Probably mage armor from first because why not.

And so our mage, if properly prepared and having a t-rex, spent his 2 3rd-level spells and probably 2 rounds overcoming this archer, assuming he likes those spells enough to prepare them. They're not an exceptionally bad choice. Alternately he could have spent some of his WBL on scrolls or such...

Probably has to leave the shelter of the wind wall to eat the guy.

Also if you just follow this strategy he does manage to shoot at you somewhat. That's problematic. Judicious application of 2nd-level spells may mitigate this, but increase the time it takes to deal with him.

I've had less effective party members than that archer.  :lmao

(/end random tangent)
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Sunic_Flames on January 31, 2011, 03:46:03 PM
...Huh?

The point is:

If those rules are in, archer flies inside wind wall, probably doesn't get to attack but doesn't one round if he does.

Magebred Warbeast T-Rex eats him. Actually Magebred isn't necessary, I just confused Magebred with Warbeast.

The point of course is that being able to buy something better than you will ever be for a trivial cost is completely fucking stupid. Therefore, those rules will not be in. No bat for you.

Jaron has a tendency to assume borderline TO stuff in common play. Notorious for it even.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: The_Mad_Linguist on January 31, 2011, 03:48:07 PM
I would have suggested wild cohort for a dire bat myself.  
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Kajhera on January 31, 2011, 04:35:45 PM
...Huh?

The point is:

If those rules are in, archer flies inside wind wall, probably doesn't get to attack but doesn't one round if he does.

Magebred Warbeast T-Rex eats him. Actually Magebred isn't necessary, I just confused Magebred with Warbeast.

The point of course is that being able to buy something better than you will ever be for a trivial cost is completely fucking stupid. Therefore, those rules will not be in. No bat for you.

Jaron has a tendency to assume borderline TO stuff in common play. Notorious for it even.

No clue, I got 3 hours of sleep.

Why's the archer flying inside the wind wall? Why not over it?
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: X-Codes on January 31, 2011, 04:48:19 PM
...Huh?

The point is:

If those rules are in, archer flies inside wind wall, probably doesn't get to attack but doesn't one round if he does.

Magebred Warbeast T-Rex eats him. Actually Magebred isn't necessary, I just confused Magebred with Warbeast.

The point of course is that being able to buy something better than you will ever be for a trivial cost is completely fucking stupid. Therefore, those rules will not be in. No bat for you.

Jaron has a tendency to assume borderline TO stuff in common play. Notorious for it even.
Honestly, there's a big difference between assuming you can buy a Magebred T-Rex at level 5 and assuming you can buy a Dire Bat (or even a Hunting Bat) at level 5.  If you don't like it, then you can instead consider that a Pegasus becomes affordable at this level, and is likely superior to any of the aforementioned creatures strictly for the purposes of a flying mount (although being small-size and riding something medium-sized is preferable for reasons stated before).
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: weenog on January 31, 2011, 04:54:14 PM
Am I the only one that finds it hilarious that after spending so much time and effort derp raging about big stupid fighters, their tools and their methods, he's relying on a big stupid fighter to protect his brittle ass from an archer after going nova and still failing to kill it?  :lmao
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: X-Codes on January 31, 2011, 04:56:46 PM
Am I the only one that finds it hilarious that after spending so much time and effort derp raging about big stupid fighters, their tools and their methods, he's relying on a big stupid fighter to protect his brittle ass from an archer after going nova and still failing to kill it?  :lmao
Possibly.  He's done it so many times before that it's kinda losing it's humor.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: JaronK on January 31, 2011, 05:40:12 PM
Sunic, let me get this straight: your awesome response to "buy whatever mount is appropriate to the campaign" is "well he could have bought a T-Rex, even though nothing even says T-Rexes would be available anywhere?"  Really?  First off, the T Rex can't fit most places anyway, so that's usually not a good idea.  Second of all, if the DM actually allows you to buy Warbeast T-Rexes and has space for them, then you would have bought that and not the bat.  Third, YOU went for the TO stuff (Warbeast T-Rex) while I was doing something that actually works in play (buy the best commonly available mount).  Notice how the stuff I mentioned was all domesticated animals that should be purchasable (Hunting Bats are domesticated by the Desmoderu, the various Lizards are domesticated by the Drow, etc).  And fourth, where are you buying this thing?  The Warbeast rules are clearly there for purchasing animals that are actually domesticated purchasable animals anyway.  Unless the DM has actually set up that there's a bunch of Halflings breeding T-Rexes somewhere, you can't just go buy one.  But you could go buy a Quickpad Lizard (Raised by Drow) or a Dire Badger (Raised by Gnomes) or a Hunting Bat (Raised by Desmoderu) or whatever else is actually a commonly available war beast.  Yes, the rules could be abused... but we're not doing that here.

The simple fact is, having an appropriate mount that can go where ever you're going is common sense, and not TO.  Just because there's also a TO method for doing it doesn't change that fact, any more than the fact that Wizards can cast flowing time Genesis doesn't change the fact that they can also cast Glitterdust.  One's overpowered TO stuff, the other's just a damn good idea.  Hey, do you tell people they're also not allowed to ever buy magic items, because they could have bought a Candle of Invocation and thus the rules for buying magic items are too screwed up to be used?

And Warbeast isn't the only place with costs.  Arms and Equipment Guide also has costs for various exotic mounts that are supposed to be available.  I also mentioned the Draconic Cohort feat.  One way or another, you could have a level appropriate domesticated mount... which is not the same as just assuming you can purchase a Warbeast T-Rex at level 5 in any given campaign.

So yes, it's perfectly reasonable to assume that an archer character can have a level appropriate mount with enough mobility to be useful.  And as a result, Wind Wall is not actually a very good counter to them at all, due to its static nature.  I'm sorry Sunic, but you just failed hard here.  Try again.  

JaronK
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Mixster on January 31, 2011, 05:45:03 PM
Why did the level 5 windwaller spend his money on a T-rex again? Where did he buy a domesticated T-rex?

If you don't have a flying mount at level 5 as a fighter, getting a flying mount is probably not a bad idea, especially if you are a ranged fighter since then you basically remove all ground-locked non-range threats against you.

And why use a level 3 spell that does nothing but force the fighter closer to you? What if the fighter just walks away till you get out of your windwall? What if he walks around a corner so you can't shoot him and waits a few turns to get you.

Why not instead use something that blinds him? Like a fog spell or the wonderful dual threat Cloud of Bewilderment?

It's not like anyone is arguing that a fighter 5 is easily able to beat a wizard 5, it's just that assuming wind wall will win you that combat is completely silly.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: JaronK on January 31, 2011, 05:56:13 PM
Why did the level 5 windwaller spend his money on a T-rex again? Where did he buy a domesticated T-rex?

Sunic doesn't actually know the difference between TO and sensible ideas anymore, so he sees "go puchase a warbeast version of whatever useful domesticated war creatures are available" as equivalent to "the warbeast template lets you purchase any animal in existence ever as a warbeast, so buy a T-Rex."  Me, I would have gotten a War Roc if I were doing it that way, but whatever... I was talking real gameplay, he was talking TO.

Quote
If you don't have a flying mount at level 5 as a fighter, getting a flying mount is probably not a bad idea, especially if you are a ranged fighter since then you basically remove all ground-locked non-range threats against you.

Absolutely, though burrowing mounts can be fun too (Races of Stone on page 161 has a bunch of underground mounts that are supposed to be available, complete with prices, and you can even purchase a saddle designed to let you burrow with the creature) and climbing mounts can be just as good as flying in tight dungeons, if not better.  Mounts are generally cheap enough that it's worth having a couple so you can switch them as needed, assuming you have some ability to do that.

Quote
And why use a level 3 spell that does nothing but force the fighter closer to you? What if the fighter just walks away till you get out of your windwall? What if he walks around a corner so you can't shoot him and waits a few turns to get you.

Why not instead use something that blinds him? Like a fog spell or the wonderful dual threat Cloud of Bewilderment?

It's not like anyone is arguing that a fighter 5 is easily able to beat a wizard 5, it's just that assuming wind wall will win you that combat is completely silly.

Kind of my point, really.  Everyone talks about Windwall as though it's so amazing, but since any half decent archer can just reposition (either by going through it, or around it, or just angling so it's not in the way anymore) it's really a situational spell at best and I wouldn't ever prepare it (maybe keep it as a scroll just in case) unless I was sure I'd have a choke point to work with and had some good reason to lure the archers in (like a horde of animated minions waiting or a team of PCs that wanted them close or whatever).  And it's decent at dealing with ambushes where a bunch of fortified people are lobbing arrows at you.  But as a counter to a reasonably mobile PC type archer?  No way.  Obviously it's not difficult to take out the Fighter with other spells... Glitterdust is an obvious one (another reason I like the bat... it can fly to safety if the two of you get glitterdusted, which at the level you'd have the bat is one of the major casty threats).  But for some reason people like to hold up Wind Wall as proof that archers are screwed, and they're really just not.  Just be mobile enough and it won't bother you ever again.

JaronK
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Sunic_Flames on January 31, 2011, 06:12:55 PM
...Huh?

The point is:

If those rules are in, archer flies inside wind wall, probably doesn't get to attack but doesn't one round if he does.

Magebred Warbeast T-Rex eats him. Actually Magebred isn't necessary, I just confused Magebred with Warbeast.

The point of course is that being able to buy something better than you will ever be for a trivial cost is completely fucking stupid. Therefore, those rules will not be in. No bat for you.

Jaron has a tendency to assume borderline TO stuff in common play. Notorious for it even.

No clue, I got 3 hours of sleep.

Why's the archer flying inside the wind wall? Why not over it?

Quote
Effect:    Wall up to 10 ft./level long and 5 ft./level high (S)

So it's 50 feet long and 25 foot high. Which means it looks kind of like this:

Code: [Select]
W W W
W C W
W W W

Suffice it to say the flier would either have to be directly overhead (which requires a good deal of movement, more than I assumed, and much more if he doesn't want to be T-Rex food) or at a high altitude to shoot at such an angle to go over a 25 foot wall to hit something directly behind it. Notably, this also means you aren't getting inside it, though you can stand in it.

And yes, a Magebred Warbeast T-Rex is fucking retarded. But then, so is JaronK for actually suggesting the mount rules from either of those sources be used at all. I simply illustrated the logical conclusion of allowing those rules, and anything else from the MM2 by picking a random high CR animal.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: lans on January 31, 2011, 06:20:51 PM
Counter point: The archers are such a threat, that the wizard has forgone the extra study in another school, to be able to cast an  Evocation spell
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: GawainBS on January 31, 2011, 06:37:15 PM
Counter point: The archers are such a threat, that the wizard has forgone the extra study in another school, to be able to cast an  Evocation spell

Slight counterpoint: Evocation has Wall of Force & Contingency.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: bearsarebrown on January 31, 2011, 06:42:28 PM
shit
Now you're in a Windwall bubble. And you can't move. And the Fighter walks away. Woopdie fucking do.

And while animal buying rules can be stupid, you're directly applying them in a TO manner. Jaron's analogy that the logical conclusion of magic items is everyone buys Candles is apt. We don't ban magic items in games, we ban Candles. Therefore, we don't ban buying mounts, we ban buying level inappropriate mounts.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Bauglir on January 31, 2011, 08:22:45 PM
Hooray, Sunic has designed a turtle that is only effective against archers?
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: lans on January 31, 2011, 08:48:30 PM
Counter point: The archers are such a threat, that the wizard has forgone the extra study in another school, to be able to cast an  Evocation spell

Slight counterpoint: Evocation has Wall of Force & Contingency.
Wall of Force isn't that good, and Contingency only matters for levels 11-14, when G.Shadow Evocation comes online
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: wotmaniac on January 31, 2011, 10:34:04 PM
Hooray, Sunic has designed a turtle that is only effective against archers?
... and doesn't protect from over-head.  :lmao
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Bauglir on January 31, 2011, 10:39:18 PM
Hooray, Sunic has designed a turtle that is only effective against archers?
... and doesn't protect from over-head.  :lmao

Hey, now, let's be fair. Some campaigns do have all their combat in indoor corridors. After all, how else would the Dwarven Defender have got published?
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: The_Mad_Linguist on January 31, 2011, 10:43:17 PM
Hooray, Sunic has designed a turtle that is only effective against archers?
... and doesn't protect from over-head.  :lmao

Hey, now, let's be fair. Some campaigns do have all their combat in indoor corridors. After all, how else would the Dwarven Defender have got published?
The dwarven defender exists to defend the dwarves in their mountainhomes from elephants.  While fulfilling his duties, he gains the ability to enter martial trances and endure a sickening amount of injury and fire.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Bauglir on January 31, 2011, 10:46:09 PM
Hooray, Sunic has designed a turtle that is only effective against archers?
... and doesn't protect from over-head.  :lmao

Hey, now, let's be fair. Some campaigns do have all their combat in indoor corridors. After all, how else would the Dwarven Defender have got published?
The dwarven defender exists to defend the dwarves in their mountainhomes from elephants.  While fulfilling his duties, he gains the ability to enter martial trances and endure a sickening amount of injury and fire.
I thought that required the Follower of HolisticDetective ACF?
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: The_Mad_Linguist on January 31, 2011, 10:54:31 PM
Nah, that's a dwarf with gravetouched ghoul applied.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: veekie on February 01, 2011, 01:22:17 AM
Hooray, Sunic has designed a turtle that is only effective against archers?
... and doesn't protect from over-head.  :lmao

Hey, now, let's be fair. Some campaigns do have all their combat in indoor corridors. After all, how else would the Dwarven Defender have got published?
The dwarven defender exists to defend the dwarves in their mountainhomes from elephants.  While fulfilling his duties, he gains the ability to enter martial trances and endure a sickening amount of injury and fire.
And the class does work, sorta, in 10x10ft corridors with no longer than 10ft in a straight line!
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: snakeman830 on February 01, 2011, 02:26:26 AM
When trying to hold a Dwarven Fortress, I see a Dwarven Defender being a great class choice.  The PrC does excel at holding chokepoints, but that's all it does well.  Truthfully, I think this was a PrC that was designed well, at least in the respect that it does exactly what it was supposed to do.  The failing is that that one job rarely comes up in an actual game.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: JaronK on February 01, 2011, 03:44:55 AM
Hooray, Sunic has designed a turtle that is only effective against archers?

Holy crap, yeah, he did.  His proof that Fighter archers suck is that Wizards evidently need to get melee monstrosities to protect themselves and turtle up in case a Fighter with a bow might show up.  Also, they can't ban evocation.  Awesome!  Truly, Halfling Fighters riding bats make Wizards into Dwarven Defenders simply by their existence.  And this whole time I would have just cast Glitterdust (but that isn't specific to archers).

And Sunic, I was saying you could get some mount from somewhere.  MMII is my favorite simply because I like the idea of riding a bat.  A&EG, Races of Stone, Drow of the Underdark, Draconomicon, Races of the Wild, Eberron Campaign Setting, and a wide variety of other books all mention various possible mount creatures, many of which can fly or burrow or climb or swim (depending on your campaign, any of those might be very nice).  You certainly don't have to use the Warbeast rules if you don't want to (though I find those rules work just fine so long as you stick to domesticated creatures, which is clearly what the template was created for.  It only breaks when you pick really big animals).  Feats can do it, class features can do it, or buying it via rules in other books for specific creatures can do it... whatever you like, really.

And accusing me of being TO because I suggested using the template as it's meant to be used, and then turning around and getting a T-Rex with it... fail dude.  Seriously fail.  Saying that someone should get whatever sort of mount can travel with them and is available within their campaign is pretty much stock standard practical optimization.

JaronK
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: X-Codes on February 01, 2011, 03:46:48 AM
When trying to hold a Dwarven Fortress, I see a Dwarven Defender being a great class choice.  The PrC does excel at holding chokepoints, but that's all it does well.  Truthfully, I think this was a PrC that was designed well, at least in the respect that it does exactly what it was supposed to do.  The failing is that that one job rarely comes up in an actual game.
Not with a PC doing it, in any case.
Hooray, Sunic has designed a turtle that is only effective against archers?
... and doesn't protect from over-head.  :lmao

Hey, now, let's be fair. Some campaigns do have all their combat in indoor corridors. After all, how else would the Dwarven Defender have got published?
The dwarven defender exists to defend the dwarves in their mountainhomes from elephants.  While fulfilling his duties, he gains the ability to enter martial trances and endure a sickening amount of injury and fire.
And the class does work, sorta, in 10x10ft corridors with no longer than 10ft in a straight line!
With Enlarge Person, a reach weapon, and the ability to smack adjacent, a Dwarven Defender can actually cover a 50'x50' area pretty effectively, including a vertical area of 25'.  That said, such a shtick is more for Dwarven Fortresses than anything else.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Solo on February 01, 2011, 03:56:11 AM
I suppose you could make a DD thrower...
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: X-Codes on February 01, 2011, 03:57:48 AM
I suppose you could make a DD thrower...
Ooh, Harpoons!  Use your strength to spear them, drag them to you, and beat the everloving hell out of them now that they can't walk briskly away.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: veekie on February 01, 2011, 06:05:39 AM
When trying to hold a Dwarven Fortress, I see a Dwarven Defender being a great class choice.  The PrC does excel at holding chokepoints, but that's all it does well.  Truthfully, I think this was a PrC that was designed well, at least in the respect that it does exactly what it was supposed to do.  The failing is that that one job rarely comes up in an actual game.
Not with a PC doing it, in any case.
Hooray, Sunic has designed a turtle that is only effective against archers?
... and doesn't protect from over-head.  :lmao

Hey, now, let's be fair. Some campaigns do have all their combat in indoor corridors. After all, how else would the Dwarven Defender have got published?
The dwarven defender exists to defend the dwarves in their mountainhomes from elephants.  While fulfilling his duties, he gains the ability to enter martial trances and endure a sickening amount of injury and fire.
And the class does work, sorta, in 10x10ft corridors with no longer than 10ft in a straight line!
With Enlarge Person, a reach weapon, and the ability to smack adjacent, a Dwarven Defender can actually cover a 50'x50' area pretty effectively, including a vertical area of 25'.  That said, such a shtick is more for Dwarven Fortresses than anything else.
Lets see, a polearm and fully spiky plate w/ gauntlets?
So buffed DDs cover the rooms, unbuffed ones cover the smaller tunnels.
Stack them in a 3x3 formation for maximum coverage.
That is, with a caster and a couple of Magic Circle/area buffs standing in the center.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Sunic_Flames on February 01, 2011, 10:37:09 AM
So, are you idiots done failing about the fucked up mount rules yet?
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: JaronK on February 01, 2011, 08:03:05 PM
So, are you idiots done failing about the fucked up mount rules yet?

You're the only one who's failed there, by claiming that since it's possible to buy an overpowered mount with one set of mount rules, that means that no mounts are allowable.  This is EXACTLY like claiming that since it's possible to buy game breaking magic items (like the Candle of Invocation) no one can buy magic items.  After all, you could take any build and say "look, it would be stronger if you just spend your wealth on Candles of Invocation and then got wishes."  

And then you failed REALLY hard by making a turtle Wizard who has to sit on a T-Rex and hide behind a wind wall if an archer shows up as proof that Fighter archers suck.  Really?  Your proof is that a Wizard could be protected by a big beat stick and could hide?

Face it, your criticisms of Fighter Archers are completely without factual basis at all.  They do significant damage.  They have noticeable advantages over most other archers, especially at lower levels.  They've got their flaws (lack of Spot for long range shooting is obvious) but claiming they don't do significant damage or that Wind Wall trumps them is just flat out wrong, and their advantages (which includes ability to use mounts... skirmish based archers can't do that for obvious reasons.  Lack of reliance on precision damage is also quite nice as it lets them hurt more things easier and do so from more ranges.  The available mobility is amazing) are actually useful for most games.  Cleric archers don't really get good until they can start making use of Divine Power and similar spells (at which point of course they end up surpassing the Fighters), while Warblade archers take even longer to get up to speed.  Skirmish based archers have to stay quite close to the enemy and in many ways are actually less versatile, plus they can't full move and full attack like a mounted archer can.

And you still don't seem to realize that there are other mount rules in other books, including costs and who sells them.

JaronK
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: skydragonknight on February 01, 2011, 10:43:02 PM
Psychic Warrior archers are better. >_>
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: wotmaniac on February 01, 2011, 11:51:16 PM
They have noticeable advantages over most other archers, especially at lower levels.
Ride -- the other useful fighter skill.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: JaronK on February 01, 2011, 11:53:27 PM
Ride -- the other useful fighter skill.

Along with Intimidate, I'd guess is what you're going for?

JaronK
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: wotmaniac on February 02, 2011, 12:05:05 AM
Ride -- the other useful fighter skill.

Along with Intimidate, I'd guess is what you're going for?

JaronK

 :thumb
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Bloody Initiate on February 02, 2011, 12:27:43 AM
They've got their flaws (lack of Spot for long range shooting is obvious)

Too bad the Guerilla Scout feat in Heroes of Battle isn't any better, otherwise this would be easily overcome.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: JaronK on February 02, 2011, 03:47:54 AM
In the end, if you wanted to make an archer that doesn't deal with skirmish or sneak attack damage (to allow being mounted and avoid having to come to close range all the time) and doesn't use spells (since those often end up overwhelming your archer role anyway) you wouldn't want to go pure Fighter, but you'd still want a bunch to get the really tasty archery feats quick (Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Woodland Archery, etc).  You'd need a few other classes... something with spot (Ranger 2 is obvious) and probably something with knowledge skills so you don't need to take Educated to get Knowledge Devotion (Factotum, perhaps?).  A Crusader dip for Martial Stance is a good plan (when you shoot that many arrows, it adds up) and maybe White Raven Tactics, and Warblade isn't too shabby either (Dancing Mongoose?).   If you get a mount (Paladin?) wild plains outrider can be quite nice too, at least as a one or two level dip, and Halfling Outrider's solid too.  You might as well be small, as being mounted and going everywhere requires a medium or smaller mount.

The end result is an archer who is effective at both close and long range, and who can pour on very significant damage while having a few good utility tricks as well.  That's a downright solid build.  It's not a Wizard, but it's solid.

JaronK
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: zugschef on February 02, 2011, 06:41:35 AM
topic...

i think that armors could give protection against energy attacks. if i was caught in a fireball, an acid shower, a cone of cold, etc. i'd rather wear fullplate than a chain shirt.
of course, some might argue that lightning attacks should harm you more in this case, ok. make it even more complex und give penalties, too, though i personally wouldn't... there is so much unrealistic stuff in dnd, that this won't make a difference. it would just complicate things and again nerf armor.

further, i think letting medium and heavy armor increase touch ac with a small portion of their ac bonus would help, too, along with fortification (why on earth is fortification a magical effect? why do they think full plate armor was invented in the first place?).

right off my head i suggest:

armor| touch| resistance| fortification
-------| -----------| -----------| --------------
light| -| ac bonus/2| -
medium| ac bonus/2| ac bonus| %=ac bonus
heavy| ac bonus/2| ac bonus| %=ac bonus*2

i'd say for these adjustments, special materials, such as mithral, count as an armor type reduction, too. thus, if you wear a mithral breast plate, you won't get any touch ac bonus and no fortification.

i hope this really makes as much sense, as it does to me right now, and that this is no total brain fart.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Bloody Initiate on February 02, 2011, 07:12:53 AM
of course, some might argue that lightning attacks should harm you more in this case, ok. make it even more complex und give penalties, too, though i personally wouldn't... there is so much unrealistic stuff in dnd, that this won't make a difference. it would just complicate things and again nerf armor.

Actually some electrical attacks already gain a bonus vs. metal armor. Shocking Grasp is +3 against anything with metal armor. For a level 3+ Duskblade this can translate to 3 more points into Power Attack, resulting in either +3 to attack (Extremely handy at lower levels) or +6 to damage (More useful at higher levels) against enemies with enough metal to give you the bonus.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Bortasz on February 02, 2011, 10:47:08 AM
Hmmm my Proposal.

Light Armour No change.

Medium Armour Half of AC is DR
Breastplate give 5 ac and 2 DR
That Damage Reduction stack witch every other reduction. So 20 lvl in Barbarian in Breastplate have DR 2(armour)+5(Class Skill) = total 7 Damage Reduction
Adamantine breastplate have DR 4
Medium Armour have also 25% Fortification witch stack witch Magic enchantment
So Breastplate +1 witch Average Fortification have 100% Chance of neutralize Sneak attack.

Heavy Armour has DR equal to full AC
so Full Plate have AC of 8 and DR 8
20lvl barbarian in Mitril Full plate have DR 5(Class skill) +8(Armour)= Total 13 DR
Adamant Full Plate have DR 11
Heavy Armour have also 75% of Fortification witch stack witch Magic enchantment
(I prefer 50% but Magic have only 25% for +1 prize and 75% for +3 prize. If it is possible for 50% Fortification for +2 prize than Heavy Armour should have 50%)
So Full Plate +1 witch weak Fortification have 100% Chance of neutralize Sneak attack.

In terms of money.

Chain Shirt +1 of Strong Fortification 36 000 and can only have +4 prize more Magic

Full Plate +1 of weak Fortification 5 500 and can have +8 prize Magic (When the Heavy Armour give 75% and magic 25%)
Full Plate +1 of +2 prize Fortification 10 500 and can have +7 prize of magic...  (when the heavy Armour give 50% and magic 50%)

In responding for Question What is the point of medium and heavy armor?:
For Battles and War and Battles.
The Full plate was not create for Adventure's but for Knight ho will fight in War. In the Middle of the Battle their is no room for dodge or reflex. The bigger the battle is then less room for manoeuvre you have.
And think about it. If you fighting against army of Peasants and you don't have magic what is better. Chain Shirt witch give little protection(leave Head, legs, arm without protection) or Full Plate witch, in reality, give you invulnerability against slash weapons? Only thrust have chance to penetrate a XVw. full plate Armour. So slash weapon don't hurt you, in the worst case you will have a bruise. Bludgeoning weapons have effect but lower because under metal you have amortisation. The best weapon are Piercing.
The Warhammer have, in my opinion, better approach to Armour then D&D. but that is non Mechanical/philosopher  argument.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Sunic_Flames on February 02, 2011, 12:13:33 PM
So, are you idiots done failing about the fucked up mount rules yet?
No.

Yes, you are.

(http://i956.photobucket.com/albums/ae50/marsman61/GWJ/nuke-it-from-orbit.jpg)
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Bauglir on February 02, 2011, 12:23:11 PM
It's true, the thread had moved on until you posted. Hilariously, though, that means your post should say "Yes, you were." because in all likelihood it's invalidated itself.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: zugschef on February 02, 2011, 03:12:42 PM
So Breastplate +1 witch Average Fortification have 100% Chance of neutralize Sneak attack.
as i've already written in this thread, i don't like damage reduction for certain reasons, but nevermind... about the fortification: i've always had the feeling that 100% fortification is kind of borked. this renders a certain type of character utterly useless... maybe one should allow a level check to see if the effect works or not.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Bortasz on February 02, 2011, 03:30:45 PM
I think that protection against Sneak attack and Critical heat combine witch DR give a big bonus to the Medium and Heavy Armour. especial inn lover and Medium lvl.

But if you really want increase usefulness of Medium and Heavy Armour. Allow Tumble in them. Of course witch Penalty.

If you have one slow down Like Medium armour (from 30 feet to 20 feet) you have penalty -5 to tumble

If you have two slowest down like heavy Armour (from 30 feet to 20 feet and cannot run) penalty is -10.

Add to this DR and Fortification and heavier armour i think are very good. Even in higher lvl.

You can have 100% protection against critics and Sneak attack and have more others magic power on your armour then witch Light armour. Of course penalty to Tumble hurt. But if you are high lvl i think you have free skill points.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Bloody Initiate on February 02, 2011, 06:24:12 PM
So Breastplate +1 witch Average Fortification have 100% Chance of neutralize Sneak attack.
as i've already written in this thread, i don't like damage reduction for certain reasons, but nevermind... about the fortification: i've always had the feeling that 100% fortification is kind of borked. this renders a certain type of character utterly useless... maybe one should allow a level check to see if the effect works or not.

...except being immune to a character in your party is not that same as making them useless.

While you occasionally fight enemies with class levels, don't forget that most of the time the people with class levels are on your team, and dangerous precision damage is almost exclusive to characters with class levels. There are several monsters that deal precision damage, but they're not nearly as common as PCs using precision and their precision damage is usually negigible.

Therefore 100% fortification is a good thing for PCs, because immunities almost always are for PCs.

Just because someone's stupid arena fight is less fair with 100% fortification doesn't mean you should nerf an already-crippled character type. Rogues shouldn't be going up against fortified enemies anyway, because believe it or not precision weapons really AREN'T good at phasing anyone in platemail.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: bearsarebrown on February 02, 2011, 06:27:48 PM
100% fortification is a requirement for PCs who want to gain more then 6 levels without being instagibbed by monster's critical hits. Screw precision damage.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Lycanthromancer on February 02, 2011, 07:00:31 PM
100% fornication
That's what I saw when I read your post.

You can tell where my mind is today...
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: JaronK on February 02, 2011, 08:02:30 PM
The thing is, the PCs will certainly be fighting other humanoids in armor.  And it would be horrific to make Rogues even more useless in such situations.  You'll have to uncouple precision damage from crits if you do this... though I feel like this is defeating the very purpose of critical hits.

JaronK
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Sunic_Flames on February 02, 2011, 08:27:26 PM
Only if the many "No, you can SA anyways" methods are removed.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: JaronK on February 02, 2011, 08:36:17 PM
Which ones exist for dealing with fortification?  The best I know of is an ACF that gives you half sneak attack when it normally wouldn't work at all, but that's hardly impressive.

JaronK
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Bloody Initiate on February 02, 2011, 09:15:42 PM
Too bad they slapped that "doesn't harm undead, constructs, or objects" bit on Brilliant Energy. It would be a fine way to ignore fortification in that case (And without those disadvantages it would almost be worth the cost).

It doesn't even make sense that it can't hurt undead, in every other case of "light"-based attacks undead take MORE damage not less.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Lycanthromancer on February 02, 2011, 09:16:53 PM
Too bad they slapped that "doesn't harm undead, constructs, or objects" bit on Brilliant Energy. It would be a fine way to ignore fortification in that case (And without those disadvantages it would almost be worth the cost).

It doesn't even make sense that it can't hurt undead, in every other case of "light"-based attacks undead take MORE damage not less.
Get yourself a ghost-touch weapon. It ignores corporeal armor that isn't [force] or abjuration-based.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Bloody Initiate on February 02, 2011, 09:24:20 PM
Too bad they slapped that "doesn't harm undead, constructs, or objects" bit on Brilliant Energy. It would be a fine way to ignore fortification in that case (And without those disadvantages it would almost be worth the cost).

It doesn't even make sense that it can't hurt undead, in every other case of "light"-based attacks undead take MORE damage not less.
Get yourself a ghost-touch weapon. It ignores corporeal armor that isn't [force] or abjuration-based.

Really? I didn't know that.

More WotC fail. A +1 quality that's better in almost every way than a +4 quality, but not because it does a different thing that is superior, but because it does the same exact thing infinitely better (Except overcome Ghost Touch Armor).

In that case, I have no idea why a rogue would bitch about 100% fortification plate. It's a non-issue. If a +5 armor enhancement can be ignored by a +1 weapon enhancement, it hammers home just how fucked the fighter is :beathorse

I also notice that the Ghost Touch armor enhancement is +3. WTF? Another system I play makes shit that defends always cheaper than shit that attacks, and D&D makes defenses much more expensive. The other system has the problem of too many cheap defenses to overcome, this one has the problem of making defense damn near impossible to optimize.

Why the hell can't the clowns who designed these games figure out that attacker and defender should invest the same amount, and whether the attack overcomes the defense should be a matter of "didn't think of that" or "that's not my shtick" rather than just being fucked?

Ugh, I like getting better at games but it always means you inevitably get a giant whiff of their putrid failings.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Lycanthromancer on February 02, 2011, 09:26:13 PM
Too bad they slapped that "doesn't harm undead, constructs, or objects" bit on Brilliant Energy. It would be a fine way to ignore fortification in that case (And without those disadvantages it would almost be worth the cost).

It doesn't even make sense that it can't hurt undead, in every other case of "light"-based attacks undead take MORE damage not less.
Get yourself a ghost-touch weapon. It ignores corporeal armor that isn't [force] or abjuration-based.

Really? I didn't know that.

More WotC fail. A +1 quality that's better in every way than a +4 quality, but not because it does a different thing that is superior, but because it does the same thing infinitely better.
It's treated as corporeal or incorporeal, whichever is more beneficial at any given time. Thus, it ignores corporeal armor. Definite fail.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: JaronK on February 02, 2011, 10:40:25 PM
Get yourself a ghost-touch weapon. It ignores corporeal armor that isn't [force] or abjuration-based.

I'm not sure that's what this means.  In context:

Quote
Ghost Touch: A ghost touch weapon deals damage normally against incorporeal creatures, regardless of its bonus. (An incorporeal creature’s 50% chance to avoid damage does not apply to attacks with ghost touch weapons.) The weapon can be picked up and moved by an incorporeal creature at any time. A manifesting ghost can wield the weapon against corporeal foes. Essentially, a ghost touch weapon counts as either corporeal or incorporeal at any given time, whichever is more beneficial to the wielder.

It's talking about what it's able to hit, not what it's able to bypass.  Also, even if it could go incorporeal to bypass the armor that wouldn't stop the armor enchantment (fortification), it would just ignore the AC.

JaronK
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: BeholderSlayer on February 02, 2011, 11:47:13 PM
I've got to agree with JaronK on this one. The description says the weapon counts as: "either corporeal or incorporeal at any given time." In order to both be able to hit a corporeal target, and ignore its corporeal armor, the weapon would have to be both incorporeal and corporeal at the same time. It is rather explicit (since "either....or...." makes "and" impossible) that the weapon cannot be both at the same time, thus the statement that ghost touch weapons ignore corporeal armor is false by RAW.

You don't even really have to consider the context. That's exactly what is written even if you only quote that one sentence, or phrase.

Since being completely unable to hit a target with a weapon is less beneficial (it's not a benefit at all, in fact) than having to overcome its corporeal armor, the weapon is corporeal and must deal with that armor bonus.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Bauglir on February 03, 2011, 12:10:06 AM
Also, "In essence" means that's not literally what's happening, but they thought that was a simple way of summarizing.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: snakeman830 on February 03, 2011, 12:15:11 AM
The weapon wouldn't need to be incorporeal to harm a physical target, I think, but you would have a tough time wielding it while it was incorporeal.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: BeholderSlayer on February 03, 2011, 12:16:16 AM
Also, "In essence" means that's not literally what's happening, but they thought that was a simple way of summarizing.
I think you mean "essentially," semantics, I know. ;)

But yes, that too.

Even ignoring that it is just meant to be a summary, the RAW is pretty clear.

I know you just meant to add that, sorry for being redundant.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Littha on February 03, 2011, 01:04:41 AM
Thing is even if it was incorporial for your attack it would only have a 50% chance of hitting a corporal target wouldn't it? Im sure i saw that somewhere in the mess that is the incorporiablility rules... ill see if i can find a quote.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: The_Mad_Linguist on February 03, 2011, 02:37:25 AM
I've got to agree with JaronK on this one. The description says the weapon counts as: "either corporeal or incorporeal at any given time." In order to both be able to hit a corporeal target, and ignore its corporeal armor, the weapon would have to be both incorporeal and corporeal at the same time. It is rather explicit (since "either....or...." makes "and" impossible) that the weapon cannot be both at the same time, thus the statement that ghost touch weapons ignore corporeal armor is false by RAW.

You don't even really have to consider the context. That's exactly what is written even if you only quote that one sentence, or phrase.

Since being completely unable to hit a target with a weapon is less beneficial (it's not a benefit at all, in fact) than having to overcome its corporeal armor, the weapon is corporeal and must deal with that armor bonus.

Quote from: Relevant text from Rules of the Game (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040928a)
Ghost Touch Weaponry

An incorporeal creature can pick up and wield a ghost touch weapon even though the creature lacks a Strength score. When the creature makes an attack, it uses its Dexterity modifier to modify the attack roll (even for a melee attack) and no Strength modifier applies to the damage roll. (Because the incorporeal attacker does not have a Strength score, its Strength modifier is +0.)

According to the Dungeon Master's Guide, a ghost touch weapon functions as either a corporeal or incorporeal object, whichever is better for the wielder at the time. This is convenient for an incorporeal creature that wants to carry a ghost touch weapon through a wall. What this means when an incorporeal wielder uses a ghost touch weapon to attack a corporeal foe is not quite clear, though. Presumably, an incorporeal wielder can choose which way the weapon acts at the time of the attack; this does not require an action on the wielder's part, and the wielder can make the choice even when it is not the wielder's turn. (For example, when the wielder uses the ghost touch weapon for an attack of opportunity.)

When an incorporeal attacker wields a ghost touch weapon as a corporeal weapon, the attack is resolved against the defender's normal Armor Class. An incorporeal attacker wielding a ghost touch weapon in this manner can use the weapon to make a disarm or sunder attack. If the weapon can be used for a trip attack (see the weapon's description in Chapter 7 of the Player's Handbook), an incorporeal attacker can make a trip attack with it.

When an incorporeal attacker wields a ghost touchweapon as an incorporeal weapon, the attack is resolved as an incorporeal touch attack. If the attack hits, the weapon deals the normal damage for a weapon of its kind, plus any bonus damage from its enhancement bonus, but no Strength modifier applies. If an incorporeal creature fires ghost touch ammunition or throws a ghost touch weapon, the projectile or weapon becomes corporeal the moment it leaves the incorporeal creature's possession, though it retains the ghost touch property.

The foregoing suggests that a corporeal attacker could choose to wield a ghost touch weapon as either a corporeal or an incorporeal weapon as well, but I don't recommend that you do so. The ghost touch property isn't priced to reflect such a potent ability. If you don't like the disparity in abilities between corporeal and incorporeal wielders, I recommend that you always have attackers use ghost touchweaponry as a corporeal attack (except that the weapon still ignores incorporeal miss chances).
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: BeholderSlayer on February 03, 2011, 11:26:17 AM
Skip smokes crack and wrote those articles while tripping 6400 micrograms of LSD.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: snakeman830 on February 03, 2011, 12:00:33 PM
Simple way to solve it, though.  How would a corporeal wielder hold an incorporeal weapon?  He couldn't!  Sure, you can have the weapon be incorporeal, but then you can't swing it.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: BeholderSlayer on February 03, 2011, 12:14:59 PM
It really would only benefit classes that have alternative sources of damage, like the rogue (since, based on my interpretation, you'd still get SA dice). It's whatever really, but Skip really does smoke crack and trip acid while writing that stuff.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Kajhera on February 03, 2011, 12:16:25 PM
Simple way to solve it, though.  How would a corporeal wielder hold an incorporeal weapon?  He couldn't!  Sure, you can have the weapon be incorporeal, but then you can't swing it.

That runs into a host of other problems that negate the efficacy of the weapon in the first place.
Want it to count as incorporeal so you can hit a ghost? The weapon slips from your grasp and lodges a foot below ground.

Want it to count as incorporeal so as a ghost you can wield it, but corporeal so you can trip someone with it? Sorry, that's not going to work either.

So it's not really a feasible way to solve it.

'Course, we've always apparently played that it's wieldable by incorporeals and hits incorporeals, but nothing particularly interesting beyond that, so... that works for us. Not that I don't want to abuse it now.  :p
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: BeholderSlayer on February 03, 2011, 12:22:00 PM
While that RotG article doesn't specify this, I'd rule that the weapon may only hit incorporeal targets while used as an incorporeal weapon.

I think this may in fact have been the intended reading of the article, as it makes intuitive sense.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Bauglir on February 03, 2011, 01:23:30 PM
Me, I'd say it exists on both the Material and Ethereal planes simultaneously, just as a Force effect does.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Soda on February 03, 2011, 03:16:39 PM
As far as Fortification and Sneak Attack, how about keep the percent chance to ignore a critical hit, and change the chance to ignore sneak attack to a flat reduction in dice? Maybe Light Fort is -2d6, Medium is -4d6, and Heavy is -6d6.

And have the Penetrating Strike ACF (which should just be a class feature) cut it in half. So a rogue with 10d6 SA vs someone with Heavy Fort, would do 10d6 - (6d6 / 2) = 7d6. You have the immunity to crits while doing something against SA without negating it. Against someone who doesn't have Rogue3 for Penetrating Strike, it does even more.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Lycanthromancer on February 03, 2011, 05:54:08 PM
Simple way to solve it, though.  How would a corporeal wielder hold an incorporeal weapon?  He couldn't!  Sure, you can have the weapon be incorporeal, but then you can't swing it.
You do realize there are ways to become incorporeal as a corporeal creature, right? Bind the apparition ribbon soulmeld, for instance.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Sunic_Flames on February 03, 2011, 06:01:10 PM
Which ones exist for dealing with fortification?  The best I know of is an ACF that gives you half sneak attack when it normally wouldn't work at all, but that's hardly impressive.

JaronK

Savvy Rogue + Crippling Strike. It's a non standard workaround, but 2 Str damage a hit + 6-10 hits works well enough.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: The_Mad_Linguist on February 03, 2011, 06:29:25 PM
Me, I'd say it exists on both the Material and Ethereal planes simultaneously, just as a Force effect does.
That doesn't actually help you hit anything incorporeal other than a ghost, though. 
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: JaronK on February 03, 2011, 07:11:36 PM
Savvy Rogue + Crippling Strike. It's a non standard workaround, but 2 Str damage a hit + 6-10 hits works well enough.

So... feat tax and you need 10 Rogue levels just to get there (13 if you wanted the ability to take 10 instead, which many people like)?  That's  hardly "Only if the many "No, you can SA anyways" methods are removed."  You made it sound like there were many ways to sneak attack anyways.  This doesn't even sneak attack, and basically just means Rogues can't do squat to anyone in heavy armor until at least level 10, plus you've added a feat tax to them (and what will Ninjas do?  How about Rokugan Ninjas, or anyone else that has sneak attack but not 10 Rogue levels?).

It seems to me that the fortification plan is, as I said, a horrible way to screw Rogues unless you uncouple sneak attack from crit immunity.

JaronK
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: zugschef on February 03, 2011, 07:41:32 PM
It seems to me that the fortification plan is, as I said, a horrible way to screw Rogues unless you uncouple sneak attack from crit immunity.
what plan? fortification as written screws rogues...

the best plan would be to limit the amount of sneak attack dice affected by fortification, maybe depending on the ac bonus, probably x dice of sneak attack negated, whereas x = ac bonus/2.

and i'd really limit moderate and heavy fortification to medium and heavy armor.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Sunic_Flames on February 03, 2011, 08:36:35 PM
Savvy Rogue + Crippling Strike. It's a non standard workaround, but 2 Str damage a hit + 6-10 hits works well enough.

So... feat tax and you need 10 Rogue levels just to get there (13 if you wanted the ability to take 10 instead, which many people like)?  That's  hardly "Only if the many "No, you can SA anyways" methods are removed."  You made it sound like there were many ways to sneak attack anyways.  This doesn't even sneak attack, and basically just means Rogues can't do squat to anyone in heavy armor until at least level 10, plus you've added a feat tax to them (and what will Ninjas do?  How about Rokugan Ninjas, or anyone else that has sneak attack but not 10 Rogue levels?).

It seems to me that the fortification plan is, as I said, a horrible way to screw Rogues unless you uncouple sneak attack from crit immunity.

JaronK

Actually, 13. You took PTWF at 10. There are also various class independent methods, though only the half damage one works on Fortification armor. But really, you're a beatstick at high levels. If you only start slacking at 15+, you did a fucking amazing job on your character. And before that you don't encounter Heavy Fort (creature type immunity I've already discussed the bypass methods for).

Who cares about Rogue's gimped cousins and some random not updated 3rd edition class?

Now any means of nerfing the forcefields against Rocket Tag is stupid, and people should feel stupid for suggesting them. They should feel more stupid by trying to limit Heavy Fort to heavy armor. Forcing people to gimp themselves to keep up just breeds resentment. It doesn't make heavy armor any good. Also, casters will have Heavy Fort regardless. It just shoves it to anyone who isn't a primary spellcaster and does not want to use heavy armor.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: JaronK on February 03, 2011, 11:57:05 PM
Actually, 13. You took PTWF at 10.

Oh god, don't start with that particular bit of wrongheaded out of context nonsense.  And pulling that one out after accusing me of being overly TO in this very thread for suggesting you purchase a domesticated creature to ride on?  Really?  Not too classy.  But I'll just leave you with this quote from the "Feats" section of the PHB, on page 87:

"Acquiring Feats... members of some classes get bonus feats as class features.  ... Prerequisites... Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat."

And I'll ask that when you try to bring up out of context quotes from the Monster Manual, you make note of which sections you got those quotes from, and why you think that section applies to class bonus feats (as opposed to just racial bonus feats).  The PHB was specifically talking about class bonus feats, you see.

Quote
There are also various class independent methods, though only the half damage one works on Fortification armor.

So, when I said that other than the half damage one (which really hurts) you're screwed and you said there were "many" ways around that, by "many" what you meant was "none."  Gotcha.

Quote
But really, you're a beatstick at high levels. If you only start slacking at 15+, you did a fucking amazing job on your character. And before that you don't encounter Heavy Fort (creature type immunity I've already discussed the bypass methods for).

People have talked about giving a fortification style effect to heavy armor.  So, you'd be seeing a heck of a lot of it at lower levels, thus leaving you horribly gimped.  It would just add one more to the list of "stuff that makes Rogues suck."  Also, this thread is talking about balancing.  Saying "whoops, we screwed another class at higher levels even more" tells you the method isn't going to work.  Me, I'd have no problem with just giving Light Fortification to Medium Armor and Medium Fortification to Heavy Armor (with the enchantment getting you the rest of the way there) but allowing sneak attacks to bypass that entirely (so it only stops critical hits).  That way these armor types get much better (and Mithral isn't so amazing) but Rogues are less screwed.

Quote
Who cares about Rogue's gimped cousins and some random not updated 3rd edition class?

People who care about balance, which was the very point of this entire exercise to begin with.  Did you fail to get the memo?

JaronK
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: dark_samuari on February 04, 2011, 12:25:10 AM
(http://storage.canoe.ca/v1/dynamic_resize/sws_path/rsoc_en-prod-photos/5/8/6/d/6/586d6ce01c0c1b8bb8f65357fa5fe435.jpg/?size=400x400&site=rsoc_en&wm_add=&quality=100&stmp=1213979991)
Did you fail to get the memo?

JaronK

Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: X-Codes on February 04, 2011, 01:09:24 AM
Actually, 13. You took PTWF at 10.

Oh god, don't start with that particular bit of wrongheaded out of context nonsense.  And pulling that one out after accusing me of being overly TO in this very thread for suggesting you purchase a domesticated creature to ride on?  Really?  Not too classy.
By Sunic's standards it was.  He didn't say that you took Epic Spellcasting at 10.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: veekie on February 04, 2011, 03:17:01 AM
Use this (http://www.immortalshandbook.com/sermon1.2.htm) in conjunction?

Specifically this bit(theres questionable rules on the same page, but the essence of the idea seems solid)
[spoiler]
Defending Against Critical Hits

Instead of the black and white situation whereby creatures or objects are immune to critical hits, I propose a method that removes the immunity altogether and introduces new creature (or object) sub-types based on the various states of matter.
Critical Hit Sub-types: Table Two
Code: [Select]
Sub-Type    | Definition            | Example             | Crit Multiplier* |
Fragile     | Crystallized          | Animated glass?     | +2               |
            | Hollow                | Animated Armor?     | +2               |
            | Two dimensional**     | Shadow?             | +2               |
Mechanism   | Inner working parts   | Human, Inevitable   | +0               |
            |       | Clockwork constructs|                  |
Solid       | No inner working parts| Iron golem, zombies | -2               |
            |                       | Earth elementals    |                  |
Liquid      | Fluid based           | Oozes               | -4               |
Gaseous     | Gas based             | Air elemental       | -6               |
Incandescent| Plasma/energy based   | Fire elemental      | -8               |
            | Incorporeal           | Ghosts, living spell|                  |
* = Min 1
**= 2 dimensional creatures/objects are only fragile against slashing attacks
*Minimum 1
**Two-dimensional creatures/objects are considered fragile when struck by Slashing/Piercing weapons, not crushing weapons.

eg. A stone golem (solid sub-type) hit by a pick-axe (20/x4) would suffer x2 damage (4 - 2 = 2) upon a critical hit.

eg. A zombie (solid sub-type) hit by a vorpal longsword (19/x2, 20/x7) would suffer x5 damage (7 - 2 = 5) upon being decapitated.

eg. A wraith (incandescent/incorporeal sub-type) hit by an opening, shredding scythe wielded by a deity with both the obliterating critical divine ability and the superior critical divine ability (16/x16) would suffer x8 damage (16 - 8) upon a critical hit.

Revised Armour/Shield Special Ability

Fortification: This property produces a magical force that protects vital areas of the wearer more effectively, decreasing a weapons critical hit multiplier.
Strong Abjuration; CL: 13th (Light-Heavy), 21st (Liquid), 27th (Gaseous) and 33rd (Incandescent); Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armor (Light-Heavy), Craft Epic Arms and Armor (Liquid-Incandescent), limited wish or miracle; Market Price: See Table Two.
Revised Fortification Armour/Shield Special Ability: Table Two
Fortification Type
   
Critical Multiplier
   
Base Price Modifier
Light
   
25% chance of -2
   
+1
Moderate
   
75% chance of -2
   
+3
Heavy (Solid)
   
100% chance of -2
   
+5
Liquid
   
100% chance of -4
   
+7
Gaseous
   
100% chance of -6
   
+9
Incandescent
   
100% chance of -8
   
+11

Sneak Attack versus Critical Hit Sub-types

A successful sneak attack should have its effect reduced (or increased in the case of fragile creatures) by 2 dice for every point the targets critical multiplier would be reduced.

eg. A 20th-level Rogue would only deal 6d6 damage (instead of 10d6) upon scoring a sneak attack upon a ghoul (solid sub-type).
[/spoiler]
Ah screw the damned table.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: zugschef on February 04, 2011, 06:48:41 AM
Use this (http://www.immortalshandbook.com/sermon1.2.htm) in conjunction?
the problem with these articles is the attempt to include physics in dnd. next you start to divide the body into zones, give every armor a certain type of DR for every zone, make rules for hitting these zones and ways to dodge, parry, or block hits, etc.
in short: you start playing GURPS.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: wotmaniac on February 04, 2011, 10:32:56 AM
in short: you start playing GURPS.
... or Rolemaster (or, as I call it, Roll Master .... 'cause you spend all night rolling dice just resolve 1 single mechanic)
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: BrokeAndDrive on February 04, 2011, 10:53:32 AM
in short: you start playing GURPS.
... or Rolemaster (or, as I call it, Roll Master .... 'cause you spend all night rolling dice just resolve 1 single mechanic)
I know exactly what you mean. :scared Never again.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Sunic_Flames on February 04, 2011, 11:17:35 AM
Obligatory Hi Welcome to Jaron.

And why is this thread even still going on? The question has already been answered many times.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: GawainBS on February 04, 2011, 12:22:21 PM
Can anyone please explain me the much vaunted brilliance of "Hi Welcome"? Sure, I read the original thread, but the mind boggling orginality and revolutionary advancement it brought to CO has eluded me so far. It's getting almost as annoying as Hood, but Endarire has the decency to be tongue-in-cheeck about it.  :rollseyes
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: BrokeAndDrive on February 04, 2011, 12:30:32 PM
Can anyone please explain me the much vaunted brilliance of "Hi Welcome"? Sure, I read the original thread, but the mind boggling orginality and revolutionary advancement it brought to CO has eluded me so far. It's getting almost as annoying as Hood, but Endarire has the decency to be tongue-in-cheeck about it. :rollseyes
It's useful when one doesn't have an actual counterargument, but is too proud to concede and back down.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: wotmaniac on February 04, 2011, 12:41:39 PM
And why is this thread even still going on? The question has already been answered many times.
the conversation has evolved?  :shrug
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Sunic_Flames on February 04, 2011, 12:52:39 PM
Can anyone please explain me the much vaunted brilliance of "Hi Welcome"? Sure, I read the original thread, but the mind boggling orginality and revolutionary advancement it brought to CO has eluded me so far. It's getting almost as annoying as Hood, but Endarire has the decency to be tongue-in-cheeck about it.  :rollseyes

Depends on context. In this case it means that the person in question is a noob, whose points are unworthy of address or intelligent rebuttal, and as such they are answered with a response that obviously has no effort put into it (which is why the poor grammar is intentional).

Also, BAD is a troll who shows up, whines and flails about something in an obviously disproportionate way, and then leaves when people respond. And before any MBFs counter with the trite response that I am a troll as well, the comparison still falls flat, as I administer appropriate response and do stick around for responses. Also, not all of my posts involve flaming idiots, whereas the same is not true of him.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Triskavanski on February 04, 2011, 12:57:23 PM
The point of heavy armor is to jump on people ala-mario style.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: veekie on February 04, 2011, 03:02:43 PM
Use this (http://www.immortalshandbook.com/sermon1.2.htm) in conjunction?
the problem with these articles is the attempt to include physics in dnd. next you start to divide the body into zones, give every armor a certain type of DR for every zone, make rules for hitting these zones and ways to dodge, parry, or block hits, etc.
in short: you start playing GURPS.
Hence the disclaimer to ignore everything but the specific critical variant rule in play. :P
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: JaronK on February 04, 2011, 04:41:19 PM
Depends on context. In this case it means that the person in question is a noob, whose points are unworthy of address or intelligent rebuttal, and as such they are answered with a response that obviously has no effort put into it (which is why the poor grammar is intentional).

Also, BAD is a troll who shows up, whines and flails about something in an obviously disproportionate way, and then leaves when people respond. And before any MBFs counter with the trite response that I am a troll as well, the comparison still falls flat, as I administer appropriate response and do stick around for responses. Also, not all of my posts involve flaming idiots, whereas the same is not true of him.

Except you use it as a "well I just got owned" statement, which is the same way you use pictures.  No one's fooled.  In this case, you just got shown for a complete fool with that stupid "take PTWF at level 10" statement after claiming I was known for being TO when I suggested a fantasy character should ride whatever mount might be available in a campaign.  Then you tried to claim there were a bunch of ways to get around heavy fortification besides the half sneak attack ACF... and couldn't name any.

Seriously, what have you contributed to this thread at all?  Right now it's just "People have ideas about balance, Sunic makes a claim, Sunic gets proved completely wrong, Sunic says "Hi Welcome" or posts a picture, everyone else comes up with interesting house rules and solutions to balance issues, Sunic asks why anyone's in this thread at all, repeat."  Be productive or get out.  It's old, and nobody's amused right now.  Here, I'll give you a funny picture now so you don't have to look far to find a funny picture to post and get the last word, you can just copy my work and claim it as your own:

(http://files.sharenator.com/funny_pictures_sisyphus_cat_watermelon_water_Grumpy_Cats-s495x481-51792-580.jpg)

There, now do your final "Hi Welcome" or picture and be done.

JaronK
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Sunic_Flames on February 04, 2011, 04:48:54 PM
ITT: Skip Smokes Crack, and Shares Some With Jaron.

Lay off the delusions there buddy. Take a few deep breaths. Then check into rehab before it's too late.

Not going to detail exactly why you are wrong about PTWF, it's old news. Suffice it to say you are wrong. And PTWF fails so hard it wouldn't be broken as a level 1 feat with no prereqs. I know, I've done it. That of course is a houserule, but PTWF at Rogue 10 is not.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: JaronK on February 04, 2011, 06:31:36 PM
Not going to detail exactly why you are wrong about PTWF, it's old news. Suffice it to say you are wrong. And PTWF fails so hard it wouldn't be broken as a level 1 feat with no prereqs. I know, I've done it. That of course is a houserule, but PTWF at Rogue 10 is not.

Yeah, I know the logic.  You look in the sections on reading monster entries and making your own monsters and find references to bonus feats, and assume it means all bonus feats and not just racial bonus feats (i.e. the ones you find in monster entries).  Then you look at the PHB where they specifically mention class bonus feats and the fact that they require prerequisites in the section on feats and ignore that, because you think the primary source on both classes and feats should be overruled by the book that's not the primary source for either in a section that doesn't even apply to classes at all.  Believe me, I know, I've seen it.  It's both wrong and TO.  And you're not going into detail, because either you don't know the details or, if you do know them, you know they're wrong.  Now can we get back to discussing what would make heavier armors more useful, preferably without screwing Rogues?  And would you like to contribute something actually useful or move on?

JaronK
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Littha on February 04, 2011, 06:53:32 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3ZHPJT2Kp4
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Sunic_Flames on February 04, 2011, 07:07:29 PM
Weapon Focus War Domain. Your argument is invalid.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: The_Mad_Linguist on February 04, 2011, 07:35:10 PM
Weapon Focus War Domain. Your argument is invalid.
Yeah, but you aren't "selecting" the feat.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: JaronK on February 04, 2011, 08:54:24 PM
Weapon Focus War Domain. Your argument is invalid.

It says "Select or use."  You didn't select it, now did you?  But yes, technically War Domain Clerics can't use Weapon Focus at level 1... but they still get the feat, and can start using it at level 2.  Silly, but there it is.  Furthermore, you of all people should know that a class assuming a rule says something it doesn't doesn't invalidate the general rule completely.   What are you going to say next, that everyone gets proficiency in unarmed strikes automatically because the Monk class assumes so, or that Mage Armor is Abjuration because the Abjurant Champion class assumes so?  

There is NO general rule that states class bonus feats ignore prerequisites.  There IS a general rule that says feats require prerequisites.  That rule IS mentioned directly after a paragraph that states it's talking about class bonus feats (in addition to level gained bonus feats, but note that racial bonus feats are not mentioned).  And it IS found in the book that's both the primary source for feats and classes.  And the only areas that talk about bonus feats ignoring prerequisites are only talking about racial abilities (because they're in sections on making your own monsters and reading monster entries).  What are you claiming next, that the section doesn't matter and context doesn't matter? Perhaps you should try to argue that you always get a free +30 to bluff checks to convince people of stuff because page 236 of the PHB states "You gain a +30 bonus on Bluff checks made to convince another of the truth of your words."?

Racial bonus feats ignore prerequisites.  Class bonus feats do not.

JaronK
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Sunic_Flames on February 04, 2011, 08:56:35 PM
Jesusfacepalm.gif
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Lycanthromancer on February 04, 2011, 09:51:36 PM
Racial bonus feats ignore prerequisites.  Class bonus feats do not.

JaronK
Slight addendum. Class bonus feats that explicitly ignore prerequisites do. Others do not.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: The_Mad_Linguist on February 04, 2011, 10:00:09 PM
Personally speaking, I allow rogues to ignore prereqs (which doesn't allow for epic stuff anyway, since descriptors like [epic] aren't prereqs), simply because it fits into the category of not particularly imbalanced and rather hilarious.

I may be biased a little by the gape of the serpent rogue who went around eating people.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: JaronK on February 04, 2011, 10:09:59 PM
Slight addendum. Class bonus feats that explicitly ignore prerequisites do. Others do not.

Well right, because specific overrides general always applies.  In the general case, though, class bonus feats require prerequisites to select and use them, just like level gained bonus feats.  Racial bonus feats don't.  Note that humans have a special note in the opposite direction, in that their bonus feat does require prerequisites because it's specifically stated to do so.

JaronK
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: The_Mad_Linguist on February 04, 2011, 10:12:35 PM
Also note that flaws grant "bonus feats" that don't have any text one way or another about prereqs; everybody just assumes they need to meet them.

Martial monk from dragon is probably the easiest way to get past prereqs via bonus feats.  Certainly the most legal.
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: Shadowhunter on February 05, 2011, 12:58:06 AM
That reminds me of Knowledge Devotion, a level 1 cleric and Knowledge (Anything) 5 ranks...
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: JaronK on February 05, 2011, 07:52:11 AM
Also note that flaws grant "bonus feats" that don't have any text one way or another about prereqs; everybody just assumes they need to meet them.

The general rule would of course apply (the feats section says feats need prerequisites).  Unless you take Sunic's interpretation of course, in which case you can take Epic Spellcasting at level 1 with a flaw because it's a bonus feat and he doesn't think MM is talking about racial bonus feats.

JaronK
Title: Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
Post by: snakeman830 on February 05, 2011, 03:13:09 PM
That reminds me of Knowledge Devotion, a level 1 cleric and Knowledge (Anything) 5 ranks...
I think that's a case where you don't have to meet the prerequisite because Clerics have a special way of getting them.  It's basically an alternative class feature.