Brilliant Gameologists Forum

The Thinktank => Min/Max It! => : Solo October 03, 2011, 12:28:43 PM

: A new spin on an old class?
: Solo October 03, 2011, 12:28:43 PM
Ok, so I might be taking part in my brother's RL 3.5 campaign soon, but one of the things I realized is that, since there are only a few ways of effectively playing the classes I like, and that I will need to play effectively due to the fact that the rest of the group are 1) new at this and 2) more inclined towards basket weaving than optimization, that I know beforehand exactly what I'm going to be doing.

I tried a cleric with PA, Law Devotion, Knowledge Devotion, and Extra Turning. Fun, but I don't know if that's really what I want. Can someone suggest me interesting things to do with said build - or any other core class except for druid - at level 5?
: Re: A new spin on an old class?
: StreamOfTheSky October 03, 2011, 01:33:26 PM
What books can you use, and why only core classes if your feat list wasn't core?
: Re: A new spin on an old class?
: Mixster October 03, 2011, 03:01:57 PM
Bard 5 with Inspire Courage optimization. It's a fun class to roleplay, and you are relatively effective at filling in holes that everybody else don't. Play it like a Tier 3 class should be played and you'll do splendid.
: Re: A new spin on an old class?
: Lycanthromancer October 03, 2011, 03:47:47 PM
You could always go for uber-buffer. Play a changeling double-focused-specialist (Transmutation/Illusion; hey, it's a wizard)/war weaver. You can get into war weaver at level 4 if you play your cards right, and then you can start buffing the whole party with multiple spells for the cost of the slots, a bit of prep-work, and a move action.

Find ways to get healing in there, and heal the whole party for one spell, if you like, or cast into your tapestry from wands.
: Re: A new spin on an old class?
: jeffrie October 03, 2011, 06:50:05 PM
Looking at your OP i like the bard idea, for the same reasons.

What level are you going through, maybe? Do you know the party makeup? What's the campaign like?

Out of the box; Chameleon is ecl6.
: Re: A new spin on an old class?
: Endarire October 03, 2011, 06:50:16 PM
Alternatively, I like Conjurer/Malconvoker for summons for Conjurer/Incantatrix for crowd control
: Re: A new spin on an old class?
: jeffrie October 03, 2011, 06:54:46 PM
Wait. New spin on an old class. Maybe cleric.

Trickery?

True neutral?

Rogue?

Female?

: Re: A new spin on an old class?
: Bester October 03, 2011, 07:04:33 PM
I'm in the same boat Solo.  New game, but non-optimisers and new players.

I was gonna try going strait Factotum, but this is a Pathfinder/3.5 included game...arrgh!  I need a solution to all skills are class skills, which seems overpowered to newbs.  And that cloistered cleric dip for knowledge devo, and travel devo is probably out too.

It's hard to play in a group that thinks wizards/clerics/druids are the weaker classes compared to fighter/paladin/etc.
: Re: A new spin on an old class?
: SorO_Lost October 03, 2011, 07:15:11 PM
I tried a cleric with PA, Law Devotion, Knowledge Devotion, and Extra Turning. Fun, but I don't know if that's really what I want. Can someone suggest me interesting things to do with said build - or any other core class except for druid - at level 5?
Drop Law for Trickery and max those turns per day (skipping persist since they are newbs and you don't want to totally out scale them). Increase your melee ability some more, maybe some Prestige Paladin / Ordained Champion or something, but aim for unarmed combat.

And get a lot of body piercings.

Like this
[spoiler]
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-gFXbX39YoZc/TgX_9RHa2-I/AAAAAAAAA2g/zPTMgO5DzfQ/s1600/Pain-naruto-shippuden.jpg)
[/spoiler]

: Re: A new spin on an old class?
: Caelic October 03, 2011, 07:34:20 PM
Definitely agree on the buffing direction.  By optimizing your character, you make the OTHER members of the party shine--which is ideal when the other players aren't experienced.

Bard heading for Sublime Chord, maybe?  I guess it depends on how long the campaign's likely to run.
: Re: A new spin on an old class?
: jeffrie October 03, 2011, 07:38:49 PM
I'm in the same boat Solo.  New game, but non-optimisers and new players.

I was gonna try going strait Factotum, but this is a Pathfinder/3.5 included game...arrgh!  I need a solution to all skills are class skills, which seems overpowered to newbs.  And that cloistered cleric dip for knowledge devo, and travel devo is probably out too.

It's hard to play in a group that thinks wizards/clerics/druids are the weaker classes compared to fighter/paladin/etc.

If you aren't 'allowed' to go factotum, are you interested in skill monkey? What type of rogue prcs will be allowed later?
: Re: A new spin on an old class?
: X-Codes October 03, 2011, 08:02:38 PM
Play a Poison Dusk Lizardfolk, buy off the LA, and get the following:

Poison Fangs Graft (Serpent Kingdoms, 8k)
Poison Spell Feat (DotU)
Divine Magician ACF (CM)
-Parching Touch (Sandstorm)
-Spectral Hand (Core)

This lets you, at range, hit with Parching Touch for 1d6 dessication damage (all but un-resistable), poorly scaling Fort Save or 1 Con damage + dehydration (fatigue), and well scaling Fort Save or 1d6 Con/1d6 Con poison.  You get 1 touch per CL per day with 1 preparation of Parching Touch.

Since it's a very compact shtick, you can spend the rest of your resources on party buffing (Spontaneous Time Domain, anyone?) and DMM: Persist for things like mass lesser vigor and recitation.  If the situation calls for it, you can even throw down a Divine Power and mix it up in melee with a Claw/Claw/Bite routine.
: Re: A new spin on an old class?
: Lycanthromancer October 03, 2011, 09:10:52 PM
And get a lot of body piercings.

Like this
[spoiler]
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-gFXbX39YoZc/TgX_9RHa2-I/AAAAAAAAA2g/zPTMgO5DzfQ/s1600/Pain-naruto-shippuden.jpg)
[/spoiler]
Solo already has enough holes in his head...
: Re: A new spin on an old class?
: ninjarabbit October 03, 2011, 09:20:41 PM
You could always go elf cleric archer with the elf domain and zen archery.

You could also go dragonwrought (or not) kobold cloistered cleric with the kobold and trickery domains to fill 2 roles.
: Re: A new spin on an old class?
: Solo October 03, 2011, 10:11:58 PM
Here's the thing; I'd love to make a buffing build, but the other party members are evil and have displayed a tendency towards Chaotic Stupid, and I need to be able to take on likely 3 of them, possibly 4, if it comes to that.

So far, they are a Paladin of Slaughter, a Rogue, and another cleric. However, I have suggested that the Paladin take the Blackguard class and the Cleric take the Death and Destruction domain in order to lower their power level while appearing to be helpful. The Rogue plans on going into Assassin and using Death Attack, but at the same time does not consider himself to be a combat specialist and has geared himself towards social encounters - doesn't even have ranks in UMD or Tumble.

I figure the most trouble I will have is with the Psion, who I have given actual optimization advice to, but he seems to be neutral and friendly with me in game and IRL, so I might be able to expect him as an ally should I lay the smack down on the rest of the party.

: Re: A new spin on an old class?
: Lycanthromancer October 03, 2011, 10:19:53 PM
If they like your buffs, they'll want to stay on your good (or at least less Evil) side. Otherwise, a well-placed Dominate Person or a beatdown from your Planar Bound bodyguards (or a well-placed Gate-from-a-scroll and a quick Teleport out) should suffice well enough to get them cooperating (or, y'know, dead).
: Re: A new spin on an old class?
: Bester October 03, 2011, 10:21:01 PM
If you aren't 'allowed' to go factotum, are you interested in skill monkey? What type of rogue prcs will be allowed later?

so far i'm allowed to take whatever I want (maybe even faerie mysteries :D).  The problem is the same as Solo, when one or 2 players play a tier 1 class and unintentionally upset the balance.  I don't see any infighting as in solo's case, but I do see a wizard/cleric/druid just owning entire encounters.  I have made it clear to the dm that I have no intention of playing such a class(unless c cleric dip 1), but want to optimise the hell out of my factotum.  In my mind Facto=competent fighter who can do anything mundane on the side.
: Re: A new spin on an old class?
: Solo October 03, 2011, 10:22:21 PM
If they like your buffs, they'll want to stay on your good (or at least less Evil) side. Otherwise, a well-placed Dominate Person or a beatdown from your Planar Bound bodyguards (or a well-placed Gate-from-a-scroll and a quick Teleport out) should suffice well enough to get them cooperating (or, y'know, dead).
The velvet glove must conceal a fist of iron.
: Re: A new spin on an old class?
: Lycanthromancer October 03, 2011, 10:25:49 PM
If they like your buffs, they'll want to stay on your good (or at least less Evil) side. Otherwise, a well-placed Dominate Person or a beatdown from your Planar Bound bodyguards (or a well-placed Gate-from-a-scroll and a quick Teleport out) should suffice well enough to get them cooperating (or, y'know, dead).
The velvet glove must conceal a fist of iron.
You're a wizard. Gather an army of buffed squirrels and kill them in their sleep if they piss you off.
: Re: A new spin on an old class?
: Solo October 03, 2011, 10:30:42 PM
Yes, but I'd like to be able to kill them if they start attacking the queen in her courtroom.
: Re: A new spin on an old class?
: jeffrie October 03, 2011, 10:36:42 PM
@Solo

Vecna Blooded Template +1 give the absolute total negation of all forms of detection. Tell your DM but not the players. That and a couple of illusions/etc, and they won't even know who you are or where your at. You can scry them at will, and make them think they can scry you.
: Re: A new spin on an old class?
: X-Codes October 03, 2011, 10:40:13 PM
Here's the thing; I'd love to make a buffing build, but the other party members are evil and have displayed a tendency towards Chaotic Stupid, and I need to be able to take on likely 3 of them, possibly 4, if it comes to that.

So far, they are a Paladin of Slaughter, a Rogue, and another cleric. However, I have suggested that the Paladin take the Blackguard class and the Cleric take the Death and Destruction domain in order to lower their power level while appearing to be helpful. The Rogue plans on going into Assassin and using Death Attack, but at the same time does not consider himself to be a combat specialist and has geared himself towards social encounters - doesn't even have ranks in UMD or Tumble.

I figure the most trouble I will have is with the Psion, who I have given actual optimization advice to, but he seems to be neutral and friendly with me in game and IRL, so I might be able to expect him as an ally should I lay the smack down on the rest of the party.
At this point I'd like to point out that these characters, while likely having solid saves, will probably have no immunity whatsoever to poison.  Take Spit Poison and get some method of putting the Paladin in one of your AMFs.  It will also suppress his double Charisma to saves and keep him earthbound, so just stay airborne with something like Infernal Transformation and spit poison at him until he dies.  The other Cleric can be dispatched with a similar treatment, although the Rogue might be a bit more difficult to hit.  For him, cast Hold Monster and CDG him with your Parching Touch spell until he dies from poison/CDG/Damage/whatever.
: Re: A new spin on an old class?
: Lycanthromancer October 03, 2011, 10:41:54 PM
Yes, but I'd like to be able to kill them if they start attacking the queen in her courtroom.
That's when you start buffing the other side and make it clear where your loyalties lie (to them, at least).

Also, get an awesome familiar, don't ban Conjuration, and start buffing the critters you've previously Planar Bound and stuffed in your Enveloping Pit for future conquests.
: Re: A new spin on an old class?
: Solo October 03, 2011, 10:49:35 PM
Here's the thing; I'd love to make a buffing build, but the other party members are evil and have displayed a tendency towards Chaotic Stupid, and I need to be able to take on likely 3 of them, possibly 4, if it comes to that.

So far, they are a Paladin of Slaughter, a Rogue, and another cleric. However, I have suggested that the Paladin take the Blackguard class and the Cleric take the Death and Destruction domain in order to lower their power level while appearing to be helpful. The Rogue plans on going into Assassin and using Death Attack, but at the same time does not consider himself to be a combat specialist and has geared himself towards social encounters - doesn't even have ranks in UMD or Tumble.

I figure the most trouble I will have is with the Psion, who I have given actual optimization advice to, but he seems to be neutral and friendly with me in game and IRL, so I might be able to expect him as an ally should I lay the smack down on the rest of the party.
At this point I'd like to point out that these characters, while likely having solid saves, will probably have no immunity whatsoever to poison.  Take Spit Poison and get some method of putting the Paladin in one of your AMFs.  It will also suppress his double Charisma to saves and keep him earthbound, so just stay airborne with something like Infernal Transformation and spit poison at him until he dies.  The other Cleric can be dispatched with a similar treatment, although the Rogue might be a bit more difficult to hit.  For him, cast Hold Monster and CDG him with your Parching Touch spell until he dies from poison/CDG/Damage/whatever.
I noticed that they do have quite good saves...

And they suck at hitting things in combat. Seriously, we ran a practice session and they had trouble hitting AC 20 at level 4.

I figure I'll open up combat by flying (that thing that they can't do) then getting a Girallon's blessing going whilst mostly immune to their attacks, and opening up a can of Ice Slick on the Paladin (balance checks to move off of the 20 ft square of ice), Hold Person on the Rogue, then land to deliver a Shivering Touch on the enemy cleric. CDG the rogue while the Paladin's suffering ACP on top of low Dex to make the balance check, then face in in 1 on 1 combat because of the Travel domain's granted power that makes me immune to my own Ice Slick.
: Re: A new spin on an old class?
: Bester October 03, 2011, 11:36:20 PM
then land to deliver a Shivering Touch on the enemy cleric.

If I were going the shivering touch route, I'd spring that little gem on them first.  I suspect they will surrender without you doing anything else.  I know I would.
Shivering Touch is an I win button after all.

Or, instead, maybe you could say "I got this one guys" before the evil party talks to any important NPC.  I did that for a while in a game were my character was a changeling shapechange ranger/old style shifter prc.  Played it up as I was their prisoner/hostage, and talked NPCs into more helpful positions.  The dm liked it, the party hated it after they found out my guy could decimate the entire party(so much so the group wanted me to change characters).  Never needed to use any of my powers except to change form to get around obstacles.  "I'll find another way up this mountain, later guys.  You have the keys to my cuffs right?"  Evil party or even party on party can work if the dm runs arenas every few games.  Gets the animosity out.
: Re: A new spin on an old class?
: Lycanthromancer October 03, 2011, 11:46:19 PM
Maybe you could make a diplomancer and threaten to talk to their parents if they molest you?
: Re: A new spin on an old class?
: Solo October 03, 2011, 11:47:34 PM
then land to deliver a Shivering Touch on the enemy cleric.

If I were going the shivering touch route, I'd spring that little gem on them first.  I suspect they will surrender without you doing anything else.  I know I would.
Shivering Touch is an I win button after all.
Actually, since I have two Shivering Touches, I can probably take out the Cleric and Paladin consecutively.

Knowledge Devotion works on Shivering Touch, right?
: Re: A new spin on an old class?
: Mooncrow October 03, 2011, 11:53:01 PM
then land to deliver a Shivering Touch on the enemy cleric.

If I were going the shivering touch route, I'd spring that little gem on them first.  I suspect they will surrender without you doing anything else.  I know I would.
Shivering Touch is an I win button after all.
Actually, since I have two Shivering Touches, I can probably take out the Cleric and Paladin consecutively.

Knowledge Devotion works on Shivering Touch, right?

Typically, "damage" is considered a separate thing from "ability damage"
: Re: A new spin on an old class?
: KellKheraptis October 04, 2011, 12:55:28 AM
Chain it in round two from Metamagic effect because you took Incantatrix 3?  Then ALL of them are no save crippled.
: Re: A new spin on an old class?
: nightshade October 04, 2011, 01:30:03 PM
Bard/Druid with Boomerang Daze and Greenbound Summoning?