[OOC] Character Sheets

[Vinom]

compared to that, what's the objection to three low tier classes that are synced in order to be a untility melee fighter with good short range abilities...

[ErhnamDJ]

I don't see how we're using that as a baseline now.

Anyway, the 'LA as point buy' thing essentially makes the game unplayable if you take it to its logical ends. 32 Int wizard//beguilers tossing out fifteen 22 DC Color Sprays a day? Easy. 40 Strength pouncers with 6 attacks? Yeah, that too. 

[bogsnes]

I'll have my char here: http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=136210 I can't make it today, but maybe tomorrow

[Nuntius Mortis]

Also, where is the great crossbow and how does a small one deal 2d6 damage? How do you get +2d6 sneak attack at first level?

You can find Great Crossbow at Races of Stone, page 155. A small one deals 2d6 damage, a Medium one deals 2d8 damage and a Large one deals 3d8 damage. The sneak attack is racial (Marrulurk race). You can find Marrulurk in Sandstorm, page 170. Its LA is +1.

As far as the 30 Dex is concerned, it goes as following: +6 racial (Marrulurk), +8 template (Wendigo) and +8 points from the point buy.

The Wendigo template can be found in Fiend Folio, page 186. I dropped a lot of thing (fly speed, all special attacks and special qualities, +4 Str and +8 Survival) in order to drop the LA to +1.

Vinom, I don't consider that your build broke any rules.

Oh, and Enharn why your Shaman doesn't has base saves?

[dither]

I don't see how we're using that as a baseline now.

Anyway, the 'LA as point buy' thing essentially makes the game unplayable if you take it to its logical ends. 32 Int wizard//beguilers tossing out fifteen 22 DC Color Sprays a day? Easy. 40 Strength pouncers with 6 attacks? Yeah, that too. 

I agree that it sounds rather silly.

Actually, I'm rather surprised that no one asked for the Feral template; they probably did so under the assumption that it'd be banned?

I'm sure any imbalances in the party will be worked out rather quickly.

[Nuntius Mortis]

Because the Feral template doesn't mix well with every build. For example, the Feral template would be catastrophical for my build but for a cleric it would be great.

IMO, the worst thing is not a good template. It's an imbalanced race. Like the Deathly Asutas (homebrew race from D&D Wiki). I mean, seriously look at them 

[Vinom]

IMO, the worst thing is not a good template. It's an imbalanced race. Like the Deathly Asutas (homebrew race from D&D Wiki). I mean, seriously look at them 

I've desided, Cleric/Druid Deathly Asuta, Dragon born, Lolth-touched

[ErhnamDJ]

Okay, about the Marrulurk. The thing has three hit dice. It gets a sneak attack progression as a rogue. You should be using a savage progression for this thing (one that doesn't give you everything at first level). There's no way that I can see to get +2d6 sneak attack at first level here. Racial hit dice are an additional balancing factor, you can't just ignore them.

As for the 'wendigo,' what you're using is so far removed from the actual template that there's no need to call them by the same name. You're getting +8 Dex, +4 Con, +2 Wis, and +4 Cha and Cha to AC for a reduction of how much in point buy? For alignment, they have 'always evil' too. Even with its original +4 level adjustment, it's worth way more than a 14 point reduction in point buy.

I couldn't find the Adept of the Bow or I'd have given that a once over too.

Eh, whatever. I'm removing myself from this game. I have no interest in playing any more. I hope you guys enjoy yourselves.

[Nuntius Mortis]

Okay, about the Marrulurk. The thing has three hit dice. It gets a sneak attack progression as a rogue. You should be using a savage progression for this thing (one that doesn't give you everything at first level). There's no way that I can see to get +2d6 sneak attack at first level here. Racial hit dice are an additional balancing factor, you can't just ignore them.

If dither agrees we could make the sneak attack as a savage progression (ie. taking +1d6 sneak attack at 1st and +2d6 at 3rd). It's just that where I play D&D we always ignore the racial hit dice and don't get its BAB, saves and HP. I really wouldn't mind having a rogue-like SA progression if that's something that bothers the whole party.

As for the 'wendigo,' what you're using is so far removed from the actual template that there's no need to call them by the same name. You're getting +8 Dex, +4 Con, +2 Wis, and +4 Cha and Cha to AC for a reduction of how much in point buy? For alignment, they have 'always evil' too. Even with its original +4 level adjustment, it's worth way more than a 14 point reduction in point buy.

Yeah, I know that there's no need to them by the same name but I don't truly care much about the name. The alignment was explained in my backstory and has to do with the character's deity (Goddess of Liberation) and gratitude to the ways of those who saved his life as an infant and raised him (which were desert elves and he adopted their alignment). As far as the template is concerned, yeah I agree that it's way good but I dropped way better things in order to drop the LA to +1.

I couldn't find the Adept of the Bow or I'd have given that a once over too.

Homebrew class that I made. Can be found in the Character Creation and Settings thread.

Eh, whatever. I'm removing myself from this game. I have no interest in playing any more. I hope you guys enjoy yourselves.

And why is that? D&D and any other RPG game is about having fun. If you think that you won't have fun, then fair enough. But if not, I really cannot understand your way of thinking.

[Surreal]

Nuntius, I think you're taking the "anything goes" tenet a little too far. Seriously, you're entirely too focused on trying to get all the goodies and are taking far too many liberties (and I think dither is just too nice to say otherwise). I was kinda interested in this campaign during the planning stages, but looking at the stuff you're cooking up makes me want to back far far away. By abusing the lax character creation, you're skewing game balance before it even begins and forcing all the other players to try keep up with you, which is not fun.

[Nuntius Mortis]

Nuntius, I think you're taking the "anything goes" tenet a little too far. Seriously, you're entirely too focused on trying to get all the goodies and are taking far too many liberties (and I think dither is just too nice to say otherwise). I was kinda interested in this campaign during the planning stages, but looking at the stuff you're cooking up makes me want to back far far away. By abusing the lax character creation, you're skewing game balance before it even begins and forcing all the other players to try keep up with you, which is not fun.

Care to tell me why the character is skewing game balance? He can only fill one role in the party. The role of the stealthy archer. In all other roles he ranges from average to incompetent. Yeah, his stats are enormous. But still he's gestalting with racial hit dice for the first 3 levels something that evens out his big boosts to stats. I'm not asking for my character to be able a wildshape into a Pit Fiend or playing a Planar Shepherd (which as a matter of fact can wildshape into a Pit Fiend) or polymorph into a Sarrukh.

Oh, and there are ways to get greater stats than those of my player and without taking LA at all (thus, keeping the 32 point buy intact). So, believe me, my player is optimized (and more importantly specialized) but he doesn't have any ability to break the game.

PS 1: The original draft of the class had a code of conduct that stated the following:
An Adept of the Bow loses the benefits of the missile weapon trick and combat style class features if he makes a melee attack (regardless of if it hits or not). Furthermore, if he makes use of an armor or a shield (natural armor and magical items do not count) he loses the Wis bonus to AC. He has to atone in order to regain these benefits.

If you all find the character gamebreaking, I'm perfectly fine with sticking to that code of conduct.

PS 2: If the majority of the players who are playing this game (including erhnam who resigned and you) think that my character breaks the game and doesn't let you to have fun, feel free to kick me out. The point is to have fun, not to start bitching about it.

[Surreal]

For starters, you do not use Pun-pun and Planar Shepherds as the measuring stick. Those are all abuses of the system, so saying that your character isn't as powerful as them is meaningless. Ramping up stats and abilities through template stacking is also (as someone pointed out earlier) taking the E6 LA system to it's unintended extreme.

Fact of the matter is, you are abusing the leeway that dither has granted you. Yes, you're supremely specialized with high stats, but you're also downplaying it in order to make it look more acceptable when clearly it's a step or two above everyone else. You haven't broken the game per se, but you do marginalize the other players in the process. Your counter argument so far has been "well the other players could get X too if they did Y", but then you're forcing the other players to change their character concept just so they can keep up with you. This is just discouraging for a potential player.

p.s. I didn't join this game due to time constraints

[Nuntius Mortis]

My character wouldn't marginalize other players because he doesn't has any other roles in a game than being an extremely efficient combatant and a character who can sneaks into everything. He cannot be a healer, he cannot be a skill-monkey or a diplomatist, he cannot cast spells. He only has one use so the rest of the party wouldn't feel useless. The cleric could still cast DMM and be a perfect buffer or healer, the spellcaster would still be able to break the game with his spells, the barbarian or the duskblade would still deal bigger damage than him and the rogue would still be skill-monkey of the party.

Anyway, if the game turns into a 4E campaign, I'm not going to play. I'm not interested in playing 4E as of now. In the future maybe, but for the time being I'm interested in 3.5E.

[dither]

The "fun romp" that I intended has become a headache.  I think that means it's time to go back to the drawing board.

[Vinom]

Mayhaps, if we knew what level to optimize our characters to, Mortis was clearly going tier 1, maybe 0 ranged melee, where I was going for a tier 2.5 dragon themed tunnel fighter...

[Nuntius Mortis]

Mayhaps, if we knew what level to optimize our characters to, Mortis was clearly going tier 1, maybe 0 ranged melee, where I was going for a tier 2.5 dragon themed tunnel fighter...

Tier 0 and 1 by no way. These tiers can break their game by their mere existence. They have limitless options, they can do whatever they want in every given moment and they are vastly unpredictable. My character would have only one option. That of ranged combat. Nothing else. He would be very predictable in a fight and a DM could throw him a Displacer beast for example or a Cheetah and rip him to pieces without problem.

If we take into consideration JaronK's system the class is purely a Tier 3 class because it's basically a ranged swordsage. Due to the heavy optimization and ideal stats for the build move it up a Tier, thus making it Tier 2. Still, not Tier 1 as it lacks versatility (a major proponent of Tier 1 classes).

'Cause believe me having 30 Dex won't save me when the Cleric casts Gate or a Necromancer with the leadership feat and a Necropolitan cohort commands an army of undead to kill me (the last can be done by 6th level).

Plus, your fighter wouldn't be Tier 2.5. A fighter is Tier 5, a Paladin Tier 5 and a Scout Tier 4. Even with heavy optimization (and by heavy I mean that Lolth-Touched Child Tauric Dire Bear Xvart we' were talking about) it would hardly be Tier 3. My suggestion for you is to play a Crusader if you want something with a religious bend (although the druid you mentioned would be stronger and if spells like Venomfire are accepted it would easily rip my player to pieces).

Anyway, I'm not willing to talk about this more. It's pretty clear that everyone else except dither and you, Vinom, are opposed to the mere presence of my character. I don't want to cause any further trouble. Have a nice campaign.

[dither]

There's also the little thing that tiers don't really matter at lowest levels, like, oh, I don't know ... 1st-6th.

I'm going to have to think about this and come back to it in a couple days. Maybe I'll have made a DM saving throw by then.

[Nuntius Mortis]

Maybe I'll have made a DM saving throw by then.

I wish you to roll a natural 20 then. The setting is good and it would be a waste not to use it

PS: Stupid typo

[Vinom]

Maybe I'll have made a DM saving throw by then.

I wish you to roll a natural 20 then. The setting is good and it would be a waste to not use it

Take twenty if you can...

[Generic_PC]

Nuntius, If you still feel like reading this, I would like to point out the fact that just because of the other players pointing out how your character is broken, they obviously have problems, as they (or, I at least) did not plan on being super-optimized. When they talk about tiers, in this case, they talk about tiers of optimization, which (as far as I understand the idea) mean that your character will be able to blow away any encounters which rely on abilities. Not roleplay, or skills, but CR encounters. Anything with a 30 in Dexterity at level 1 that focuses on ranged combat will be almost unable to miss, and anything which does 2d6 damage (+2d6) will destroy any 1st level Orc Warrior, for instance, will barely a glance, much less 20-25% of the character (or, parties) resources. How many CR1 encounters can hit a 31AC? I don't know many at all, though I suppose dither can always be really lucky.

Ultimately, my character could be in no way as effective as your own in any part of the game, as encounters would end before melee actually occured. This is not my actual problem, as I understand my character is slightly unoptimized. It comes down to the fact that my misgivings would be added to a larger pile which contains most of the players in the game.

Despite your defenses, the fact that others have a problem with it means that they are not expecting a game in which 4d6 damage at level 1 was to be required. I would recommend that you stagger the stats you gain, and, if nothing else, increase the LA of Wendigo, since you are basically getting everything you wanted from the template (and losing some stuff you didn't actually want, along with some other stuff which you did, but for the gains...)

Ultimately, dither probably deserves a break. I, for one, would never attempt the task of converting Diablo into any semblance of roleplay. EVER.