The Complete Cost Reduction Handbook by Bastian with PlzBreakMyCampaign's help

[snakeman830]

You put the Lords of Madness grafts under Libris Mortis.

[LunaticsLament]

When I get some more time away from school, I'd love to help with the Grafts portion of this handbook.

[Wubs]

Other Considerations

Once you have a final cost figure, reduce that number if either of the following conditions applies:
Item Requires Skill to Use

Some items require a specific skill to get them to function. This factor should reduce the cost about 10%.
Item Requires Specific Class or Alignment to Use

Even more restrictive than requiring a skill, this limitation cuts the cost by 30%.

From the SRD... I was under the impression it applied like the other feats/modifiers, but the wording seems to imply more?

.6 modifier to the right away, or just like the other stuff and .6 modifier?

[awaken DM golem]

Quote: "Unbound Scroll, prc (Dra)                                           Scrolls                                       100% minus 5% per level"

Ah-ha.
When I've posted before, about the Psionic Artificer, I had no idea about this.
Basically ... Linked metapsionic used on Dorjes (wands) with the Artificer level 5 class ability (iirc)
then works just about like Unbound Scroll.
Not that I have the details dead right 

I've changed my mind about the Psi-Arty; it's not broken in the least. It's just like it's big brother, the regular Arty. 

[BenTheJester]

I don't see the point of having more than 1 person in the infinite crafting xp scheme.

Castings of Distilled Joy are your limiting factors, not the number of people in your farm. If you use the limited wish, nothing prevents you from casting it on the same person over and over. Same thing with the clock/Distilled Joy castings. A cheese-trap seems to be the optimal way to do this.

And this method seems a little slow too. Mid-level Sorcerers can only cast it a few times per day, and those sorcerers will have better things to do than assist a never-ending orgy.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

The LE medicant scheme seems to be the best option.  Get good press, get a ton of xp.

[BenTheJester]

The LE medicant scheme seems to be the best option.  Get good press, get a ton of xp.

How does that work?

Is it the Ambrosia farm, but with Liquid Pain(which seems expensive with its 64k gp cost/target)?

[Akalsaris]

I think it's funny that the "non-cheesy" way to get experience for crafting involves a complicated set-up of some obscure magical nipple clamps from an evil book, an online magic item, a relatively obscure exalted spell, and using variable time planes.  Everyone's definition of cheesy is different, I suppose 

For another experience source (also cheesy), there's the item familiar feat.  Could work well with the flavor of a crafter.

For a serious request, can you edit the lists to show which bonuses are applied in what order, and which don't stack? 

For example, if I make a +2 Longsword by myself (50% gold cost) reduction, make it only usable by CG characters (70% cost), requires 5 ranks in jump (90% cost), and have extraordinary artisan (75% reduction), does it cost 0% (or 0% plus 315g for the base masterwork sword)? 

Or do you apply 50% to 8,000g for 4,000g, then apply 70%+90%=60% for 2,400g, then apply extraordinary artisan onto that for 1,800g (+315g for the base sword, or maybe less due to extraordinary crafter)?  Or is it some other combination?

 Every time I make a crafter (ok, BOTH times I made a crafter), I have to look this stuff to see whether the discount is to base cost, final cost, or what, and it drives me nuts.

Some simple crafter builds that don't necessarily focus entirely on crafting:
Artificer 20
Binder 20 (Binds Astaroth)
Binder 10/Legacy Champion 10 (Combined with a good legacy item and/or item familiar, could be worthwhile)
Factotum 8/Chameleon 10/Master of Masks 1/Mindbender 1 (Chameleon floating feat for item creation)
Conjurer 3/Binder 1/Anima Mage 10/Knight of the Sacred Seal 5/Binder +1 (Binds Astaroth)
Conjurer 3/Binder 1/Anima Mage 10/Incantatrix 6 (Binds Astaroth)
Transmuter 5/Fleshwarper 10/Effigy Master 5 (Grafts and constructs specialist)

[The_Mad_Linguist]

The LE medicant scheme seems to be the best option.  Get good press, get a ton of xp.

How does that work?

Is it the Ambrosia farm, but with Liquid Pain(which seems expensive with its 64k gp cost/target)?

Step 1) Set up free hospitals
Step 2) Extract liquid pain from people suffering diseases (they're acceptable targets).  Magic trap or spell turret or something
Step 3) Use some sort of magic trap of cure disease or something.
Step 4) Undercut all the good churches
Step 5) Drive all other medical services out of business.  You are now necessary to scoiety.

[PhaedrusXY]

The LE medicant scheme seems to be the best option.  Get good press, get a ton of xp.

How does that work?

Is it the Ambrosia farm, but with Liquid Pain(which seems expensive with its 64k gp cost/target)?

Step 1) Set up free hospitals
Step 2) Extract liquid pain from people suffering diseases (they're acceptable targets).  Magic trap or spell turret or something
Step 3) Use some sort of magic trap of cure disease or something.
Step 4) Undercut all the good churches
Step 5) Drive all other medical services out of business.  You are now necessary to scoiety.

And then Step 6, secretly start a plague. Business is good!  

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Well, step 6 is gathering samples from all the sick people who come in.  Without any outbreaks of disease in the general population, not many people will be resistant, and you can select the diseases that are most effective.

If you're going to start a plague, might as well make it a high-quality plague.


As far as evil schemes go, it was one of my favorites to DM.  Especially with having free hospitals for out-of-combat healing for player characters.

[Bastian]

For a serious request, can you edit the lists to show which bonuses are applied in what order, and which don't stack? 

For example, if I make a +2 Longsword by myself (50% gold cost) reduction, make it only usable by CG characters (70% cost), requires 5 ranks in jump (90% cost), and have extraordinary artisan (75% reduction), does it cost 0% (or 0% plus 315g for the base masterwork sword)? 

Or do you apply 50% to 8,000g for 4,000g, then apply 70%+90%=60% for 2,400g, then apply extraordinary artisan onto that for 1,800g (+315g for the base sword, or maybe less due to extraordinary crafter)?  Or is it some other combination?

 Every time I make a crafter (ok, BOTH times I made a crafter), I have to look this stuff to see whether the discount is to base cost, final cost, or what, and it drives me nuts.

It seems to have been removed from this version of the handbook but you are all wrong about how reductions work. Thank you for pointing this out.

To quote myself:
"Please note that like concealment, price reductions are not added together but multiplied by the total, one after another so that two 25 percent reductions lead to a total reduction of 43.75 percent."

I think it's funny that the "non-cheesy" way to get experience for crafting involves a complicated set-up of some obscure magical nipple clamps from an evil book, an online magic item, a relatively obscure exalted spell, and using variable time planes.  Everyone's definition of cheesy is different, I suppose 

By "non-super cheesy" I meant as compared to techniques like thought bottle, but yes, it is still extremely cheesy.

[McPoyo]

The LE medicant scheme seems to be the best option.  Get good press, get a ton of xp.

How does that work?

Is it the Ambrosia farm, but with Liquid Pain(which seems expensive with its 64k gp cost/target)?

Step 1) Set up free hospitals
Step 2) Extract liquid pain from people suffering diseases (they're acceptable targets).  Magic trap or spell turret or something
Step 3) Use some sort of magic trap of cure disease or something.
Step 4) Undercut all the good churches
Step 5) Drive all other medical services out of business.  You are now necessary to scoiety.

And then Step 6, secretly start a plague. Business is good! 

I'm picturing the spell turrets as bedside monitor-looking devices. Sure, for us in the real world, they monitor heart rates, BP, and other vital signs. In DnD, they turn a profit off your pain.

Actually, I'm not sure I see a difference, now...

[LunaticsLament]

Is there a reason that grafts are so much more expensive then they are really worth?

[Garryl]

Part of it is that slotless items are priced as double the cost of an equivalent, slotted item. Anything after that, your guess is as good as mine.

[snakeman830]

They're also nonmagical and several give untyped bonuses.

[Archao]

They're also nonmagical and several give untyped bonuses.

Like Dragonbone Legs, which give an untyped +4 bonus to Climb, Jump, and Swim checks. Good for a Hood build.

[Havok4]

Their combination of odd but usually useless benefits (cannot be removed, are nonmagical, are slotless (which is actually useful)) drive up the cost more than it is really worth it due to how DnD item costs are designed.

[bearsarebrown]

They're strangely priced. Feathered wings are double land movement average flight speed for 10k. Membranous wings are double land movement average flight speed and 10 cold resist for 55k.

That's stupid.

[McPoyo]

*looks inconspicuously in the direction of WotC's balance document*