Brilliant Gameologists Forum
The Thinktank => Min/Max It! => : Gavinfoxx December 10, 2010, 02:05:48 AM
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So I was thinking of how hardcore it would be possible to get a CR 11 encounter with a small tribe of NPC classed Kobolds to actually BE, using the CR system and the NPC classes.. We all know that the NPC classes can be optimized, what with all the Expert Skills, Religious Adepts getting Domains, a bunch of obscure Warrior weapons and specialized feats, and Magewright doing battlefield control, and both the Adepts and Magewrights using feats and other tricks to get access to more spells...
But I don't really know how this would actually pan out. How hardcore COULD someone possibly make such an encounter? Does anyone have any ideas? What would the encounter look like? The build of the kobolds?
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Fell Drain Zap Traps?
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I've heard legends...
http://www.tuckerskobolds.com/ (http://www.tuckerskobolds.com/)
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Tucker's is 2E, though... what specific things can an inventive group of npc classed kobolds do to stage an ambush, *without* increasing the CR drastically though? Remember, traps come out of the total CR of the encounter too, don't they?
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The simple use of arrow slits can cause great frustration, and as far as I know holes in the wall or ceiling have no particular CR.
They are free to spend more of their wealth on consumables than your average PC would wish. Like scrolls, and Dust of Nosave Stun.
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Some traps can be re-used via unconventional attacks, too. A pit with some spikes at the bottom (optionally poisoned) may well come into play several times if a fight happens on a slope above it, and some kobolds are armed with oil or marbles.
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Adepts. They have Polymorph on their spell lists.
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Not til 16th level, so scrolls would be the way to go with that, aye? Minor Creation enables poisons and other tactical devices, but would also need a scroll (or the Hidden Power feat).
Also consider Profession(Miner) to set up the battlefield to tactical advantage.
I don't think animated minions count against a necromancer's CR. Adepts get that.
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Not til 16th level, so scrolls would be the way to go with that, aye? Minor Creation enables poisons and other tactical devices, but would also need a scroll (or the Hidden Power feat).
Partially charged wands are cheaper.
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JaronK has a writeup about low level NPCs being lead by a higher level one in a phalanx and it being really strong. I want to say it was 12 level 1 Crusaders and one level 6?
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Not til 16th level, so scrolls would be the way to go with that, aye? Minor Creation enables poisons and other tactical devices, but would also need a scroll (or the Hidden Power feat).
Partially charged wands are cheaper.
That then. Best to scrape all possible discounts.
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The scary thing is that most of these things apply to ANY encounter.
*runs off to make a handbook*
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To make it specific to Kobolds, use, erm... Profession(Miner), Draconic Rite of Passage, Dragonwrought and derivative feats, ... dire weasels, spears, and inexpensive traps? (do such things exist outside the Trapsmith?)
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I have just created a handbook for this kind of thing. Feel free to send your ideas this way (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10348.0) as well.
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CR 11 .... try this:
1 Kobold Adept 12(CR 9)
4 Kobold Warrior 7
2 Kobold Adept 7
6 Kobold Warrior 6
total CR = 11
all Warriors are Archers: typical of the following:
Abilities: Str 9, Dex 14(+1 lvl), Con 10, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 8
feats: Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Woodland Archer
use Poison on the Arrows(Sassone leaf residue, Contact, DC 16, 2d12 hp/1d6 Con ...... 300 gp)apply it to 50 Arrows(one Dose equivalent) and Divide between them(Each gets 5 Arrows with Poison on them)
Ambush Tactics.... make sure that they surround them and all fire at same time(vs Flatfooted AC) ...... the Minor Adepts will throw Tanglefoot bags(Ranged Touch Attacks) and Thunderstones(Ranged Touch Attacks) and Alchemist Fire(Ranged Touch Attacks) ..... the Minor Adepts will focus on the Spellcasters
the Primary Adept will buff Self and use spells for Battlefield control and Debuff when possible.... also Animate Dead for reinforcements
:D
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... I don't think poison works that way on ammunition.
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... I don't think poison works that way on ammunition.
what way?
:D
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... I don't think poison works that way on ammunition.
Even if it doesn't, if one of them takes Hidden Talent (Psionic Minor Creation) they can create a literal gallon of poison that will last for 1 hour. All they need is a 1 minute notice, which could be provided by a lookout, some kind of alarm spell, etc.
Other stuff:
- A cliff with a Silent Image over it doesn't technically count as a trap. This would work like some of those old "Coyote and Road Runner" skits. :D You have a path with a break in it, and a huge dropoff at the break, and you cover the break with an illusion of the path still being there. Until they "interact" with it, the PCs won't even get a saving throw. You should probably give them a reflex save to avoid falling off, just to be fair. Or have an NPC "redshirt" go first. :P
- Silent Image can also provide total concealment for the kobolds that they themselves can see through (because they know it is an illusion). Enemies might not even get a save unless they can physically reach the illusion to "interact" with it (depends on how the DM interprets interact). So a bunch of kobolds on a cliff with an illusion of a rock wall on top of it can fire down on people below them with impunity (and total concealment :P ).
- Difficult terrain doesn't increase the CR, but can make things much more difficult for our intrepid heroes. Having the kobolds attack from hiding (ranged attacks) while the PCs are in difficult terrain will make it take at least twice as long for the PCs to get to them, unless they have some way to ignore the terrain.
- Having tunnels that only tiny creatures can enter where the kobolds can run to can help a lot, also. The kobolds fire a crossbow bolt from hiding, and then duck into a nearby tunnel only to pop out of a different tunnel entrance a couple of rounds later and fire at them again. Readied actions with ranged weapons will negate this advantage soon enough, but it will probably give the kobolds an extra round or two of attacks.
- Familiars make great scouts. Those bats that flew away when you kicked down the door to the mountain cavern? One of them was the adept's familiar.
I think a lot of this stuff will actually be far more deadly at lower levels. For a group of PCs capable of facing 11th level encounters, much of these things will be trivial. They'll all probably have a way to fly or levitate, which will trivialize the cliffs and difficult terrain. They might also have non-visual means of detecting enemies, negating the illusions.
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Also, as far as I know, most purely magical traps (Explosive Runes, Zap Traps, etc) don't have a CR. So you could have ludicrous amounts of them without changing the expected CR one bit.
Invisible Spell is also nice to have and works almost equally well to annoy someone with See Invisibility/True Seeing.
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Not til 16th level, so scrolls would be the way to go with that, aye? Minor Creation enables poisons and other tactical devices, but would also need a scroll (or the Hidden Power feat).
Partially charged wands are cheaper.
I thought only monks could buy those?
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Invisible Spell on any concealment spell is amazing. High level characters are screwed by it, while the mooks don't care.
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Adept gets to double up, on the CR scale ... that's pretty good stuff combined with Dragon racial hd.
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Can anything be done offensively with Magewright? They have Grease, Right?
What about Experts with Iajutsu Focus?
What about Religious Adepts with varied domains, to get more obscure spells? Is there a domain that gets Grease as a first level spell, and if so, would that make Magewright obsolete for NPC's?
Also is there a Psionic NPC class somewhere?
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What about Religious Adepts with varied domains, to get more obscure spells? Is there a domain that gets Grease as a first level spell, and if so, would that make Magewright obsolete for NPC's?
Could an adept with the Knowledge domain trade the domain power for Knowledge Devotion?
Also is there a Psionic NPC class somewhere?
http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/augur
Also, an NPC druid class (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/gk7uKJeF296jRcx1NJw.html) by Keith Baker.Keith Baker is a talented game designer and novelist who has written work for Atlas Games, Goodman Games, Green Ronin Games, and Wizards of the Coast. His card game, Gloom, won the 2005 Origins Award for Traditional Game of the Year. He also designed some campaign setting or something. At long last, his will has been crushed beneath the iron heel of his archnemesis, Rich Burlew, and he has been chained to a desk somewhere in Colorado to churn out fodder for this website. His bizarre cow fixation is frequently on display at his personal website, www.bossythecow.com.
Rich Burlew can't draw anything but crappy stick figures.
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No traps?
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No traps?
Fell Drain Zap Traps?
Some traps can be re-used via unconventional attacks, too. A pit with some spikes at the bottom (optionally poisoned) may well come into play several times if a fight happens on a slope above it, and some kobolds are armed with oil or marbles.
To make it specific to Kobolds, use, erm... Profession(Miner), Draconic Rite of Passage, Dragonwrought and derivative feats, ... dire weasels, spears, and inexpensive traps? (do such things exist outside the Trapsmith?)
:p
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Also, as far as I know, most purely magical traps (Explosive Runes, Zap Traps, etc) don't have a CR. So you could have ludicrous amounts of them without changing the expected CR one bit.
Invisible Spell is also nice to have and works almost equally well to annoy someone with See Invisibility/True Seeing.
Magic traps do have a CR (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/traps.htm#crMagicTrap). It's 1 + max level of spell (or 1 + 1/7 averagedamage per round). What they don't count against is NPC wealth if there are spellcasters that can make the traps themselves.
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There's a trap that casts four different spells spells of different schools before repeating...DMG2, I think. It's CR was 1+spell level (the usual, apparently). So if the trap casts a 9th level spell every round it is CR 10.
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There's a trap that casts four different spells spells of different schools before repeating...DMG2, I think. It's CR was 1+spell level (the usual, apparently). So if the trap casts a 9th level spell every round it is CR 10.
Wail of the banshee trap + one kobold with earmuffs?
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Gavinfox - Magewrights
I had a short thread back at 339, about the Magewright.
It's a snore, but it gets the same double up trick as Adepts on the CR scale.
It needs to retrain the spell gaining thingy, every level though.
Eberron Adept gets 1 domain on it's list , nothing else from it.
Forlorn "flaw" is really an ACF, and subs a feat for the Familiar.
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Also, as far as I know, most purely magical traps (Explosive Runes, Zap Traps, etc) don't have a CR. So you could have ludicrous amounts of them without changing the expected CR one bit.
Invisible Spell is also nice to have and works almost equally well to annoy someone with See Invisibility/True Seeing.
Magic traps do have a CR (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/traps.htm#crMagicTrap). It's 1 + max level of spell (or 1 + 1/7 averagedamage per round). What they don't count against is NPC wealth if there are spellcasters that can make the traps themselves.
So a Silent Image "trap" concealing a cliff's edge would only be CR 2? :smirk
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It's in DMG II yes, it's called a Spell Turret.
It has a strict round-by-round basis tactic.
It's designed like this:
1st-4th round, 1 spell per turn. All spells from the same list, same level, different schools.
5th repair 4d8+20 points of damage.
It's unclear if any summoned monsters needs to touch the turret for it to cast touch-range spells on it. Example in the book states:
Sacred Grove Spell Turret (5th-level druid spells):
Summon nature’s ally V (to summon an animal), stoneskin
(on summoned animal), animal growth (on summoned
animal), call lightning storm. Cost: 22,500 gp, 1,800 XP.
Stoneskin is a touch-range spell as we all know.
This turret is kinda annoying to face, just as an reflection.
It keeps on popping out summons, buff them whilst blasting you with lightning bolts all the same.
CR is equal to 1+spell level.
So somehow the following trap is CR 10.
1st round: Disjunction.
2nd round: Wail of the Banshee.
3rd round: Mass Hold Monster.
4th round: Sphere of Ultimate Destruction.
5th round: Repair 4d8+20.
6th round: Disjunction.
repeat until death.
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So I was thinking of how hardcore it would be possible to get a CR 11 encounter with a small tribe of NPC classed Kobolds to actually BE, using the CR system and the NPC classes.. We all know that the NPC classes can be optimized, what with all the Expert Skills, Religious Adepts getting Domains, a bunch of obscure Warrior weapons and specialized feats, and Magewright doing battlefield control, and both the Adepts and Magewrights using feats and other tricks to get access to more spells...
But I don't really know how this would actually pan out. How hardcore COULD someone possibly make such an encounter? Does anyone have any ideas? What would the encounter look like? The build of the kobolds?
i have a friend you need to meet. go over to the penandpapergames boards and look for "tesral (http://www.penandpapergames.com/forums/member.php/2937-tesral)". then ask him what can be done with a tribe of kobolds. i remember one story of his where he took down a mid level party with a tribe of kobolds and i don't think a single one was above 3rd, iirc. ^^
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Speaking of traps, here's a dart trap I made from an old post here on the boards, I'd hate to run up against it. This thing spews up to 8 black lotus darts in a 10x10 area like nobody's business
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Magical Fusillade of Poisoned Darts: CR 6; magic device; touch trigger; automatic reset; Atk +19 ranged (1d4+1, dart, poison (black lotus extract, DC 20 Fortitude save resists, 3d6 Con/3d6 Con via psionic creation, minor)); multiple targets (1d8 darts per target in a 10-ft.-by-10-ft. area); Search DC 15; Disable Device DC 25. Market Price: 3,700 gold. XP Cost: 80
cost:
touch -100gp
automatic +500gp
search dc 15 -500gp
disable device +1000gp
attack bonus +19 1800gp
magical device creating darts via psionic creation, minor 500gp
magical device creating poison via psionic creation, minor 500gp
total gold cost: 3,700 gold
xp cost: 40 per spell = 80xp required
cr:
magic trap +1
creating darts via psionic creation, minor +1
creating poison via psionic creation, minor +1
search dc 15 -1
disable device 25 +1
attack bonus 19 +1
total: 6
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So, what if we wanted to limit the traps to things the group could have plausibly made themselves? Is there a psionic NPC class that is semi-official anywhere? What are some gods that kobolds could plausibly have for the Domain Adepts?
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So somehow the following trap is CR 10.
1st round: Disjunction.
2nd round: Wail of the Banshee.
3rd round: Mass Hold Monster.
4th round: Sphere of Ultimate Destruction.
5th round: Repair 4d8+20.
6th round: Disjunction.
repeat until death.
To be fair, it can't move and doesn't have exceptional sensory modes. And can be defeated in a single round by a rogue with a disable device check.
I think it actually need LoS to be able to activate, so there's an obvious way to defeat it.
[spoiler](http://defaultprime.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/prison-inmate-escapes-jail-cardboard-box-metal-gear-solid-snake-style-425x318.jpg) (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7730018.stm)[/spoiler]
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Are we allowed to use lycantrope classes? Though that would mean no dragonwrought...
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Are we allowed to use lycantrope classes? Though that would mean no dragonwrought...
How much would dragonwrought help these guys out, really, with no sorcerers?
And no PC classes in general... maybe limit templates too? I dunno...
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Humanoid hd only counts as 1/4 per hd, in terms of CR.
So ... a 40+ hd Kobold is within reach. That's p l e n t y of Epic feats.
I was thinking the Commoner 20 build with Leadership and Undead Leadership etc
would work. Obviously doesn't need to be Commoner anymore.
Problem is, I have no idea how a Cohort gets counted in the CR ??
It either does or it doesn't, but I don't know.
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Kobolds can't advance via HD.
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Huh?
Well maybe so.
I was unaware that 1hd Humanoid absolutely had to advance as non racial hd.
Maybe a template can get an extra 1hd, to get out of this trap?
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Kobolds can't advance via HD.
i believe that there is a debate going on about if dw kobolds can advance solely by hd. if the debate comes out yes, then there is a single exception to that.
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A few years ago, I called Customer Service and asked if Dragonwrought Kobolds could take a racial hit dice of Dragon. They said they have to advance via class level.
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Maybe that still fits, though.
2hd of Dragon racial ... can be continued.
1hd of Dragon racial ... gets the replacement routine.
1hd of Dragon racial + (at least) 1hd via a template = ??
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Check it. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8664950&postcount=25)
Replace with the NPC adept for the divine casters, and that psionic NPC class from Dreamscarred Press, for best results. Oh, and the magewright for arcanists, too.
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Can you tell me more of the source for the psionic npc class?
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Can you tell me more of the source for the psionic npc class?
Behold! (http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/augur)
Plus, if you want more kobold villainy... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8665487&postcount=30)