Psycarnum Infusion + Midnight X, ROUND TWO

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

Thanks for the replies all.

Investing Essentia into something, and treating it like it had essentia invested, are two different things. The first case: There is actually essentia invested. The second case: There is no essentia invested, but you get to act like it actually is.

how do you know?

The feats have that 1/day limit so you do not just move essentia into the feats when it is most advantageous for one round, then put it back in your soulmelds. You are forced to deal with not having access to that essentia once you invest it into the feats.

This at first made sense. But then I realized, 'hey this is really a run-around way to do things. Why not just make the essentia unretrievable for the day?' And then I remembered, that the feat does this in addition to the 1/day limit: "Once the amount of essentia invested is chosen, it cannot be altered and remains invested for 24 hours." So to me the 1/day limit is on top of (or extra) to the reinvestment limitation.

I could see you saying 'well its to prevent temporary double-dipping of some essentia before it gets locked into the midnight x feat.' But that is still balanced. The 1/day restriction must have some other reasoning.

Actually investing, versus acting like you invested essentia, is what we are arguing. They are two different things, as is set by precedent throughout all of 3.5. Therefore, you assertion is incorrect.

Hmm getting warming. If you can be sure of the upper part, then this is correct. Remember that (unless I think the RAI goes against it) I usually read text conservatively.

If it were meant to follow the 1/day restriction on Incarnum Feats, it would only be usable 1/day/Incarnum Feat you have (and would have a clause preventing you from using it twice on one feat).

I don't know about that. By my interpretation you can't use it twice on the same feat (in one day) because it trips the 1/day limit. However psycarnum infusion should be able to be used once each on, say, 3 different feats in one day. I think what you said would rule this out, which WotC probably did not want to do.

To me, "essentia invested" has the meaning of, the amount of essentia in the soulmeld, incarnum feat, class feature, or other incarnum receptacle. In the case of Midnight Augmentation, if we have not spent our once a day effect, the essentia invested in it is zero.

yes

Now we use Psycarnum Infusion to treat the zero essentia invested in Midnight Augmentation as if it were equal to the capacity of Midnight Augmentation.

which changes the amount in it (for that 1 round), which counts as the essentia in it (aka invested, by your own understanding), which the midnight x feats specifically say trips the 1/day limit. Since the pscarnum infusion feat does not have any specific text allowing an override, this is the way it stands (to me).

[snakeman830]

Psycarnum Infusion DOES NOT invest any essentia.  There is no essentia involved at all with it.  You just get to treat that particular receptacle as though it were full for one round.

This is proven by the fact that Psycarnum Infusion specifically states that it gives you no bonus essentia.  So, when you use Psycarnum Infusion on an Incarnum feat, you still have not invested any essentia in it  Since you haven't invested any essentia (there is still none in the feat), you don't trip the 1/day limitation.

[Sohala]

Now we use Psycarnum Infusion to treat the zero essentia invested in Midnight Augmentation as if it were equal to the capacity of Midnight Augmentation.

which changes the amount in it (for that 1 round), which counts as the essentia in it (aka invested, by your own understanding), which the midnight x feats specifically say trips the 1/day limit. Since the pscarnum infusion feat does not have any specific text allowing an override, this is the way it stands (to me).

into

You don't gain any bonus essentia from this effect.

How would, under your interpretation, a person with zero essentia (none at all), invest essentia into anything, be it a soulmeld, incarnum feat, class feature, or any other incarnum receptacle?

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

I'm not being stubborn, I'm just trying to be very careful in checking the consistency of the combos

treat that particular receptacle as though it were full for one round.

= investing essentia (even if its the feat that does this, not a character's essentia pool)

This is proven by the fact that Psycarnum Infusion specifically states that it gives you no bonus essentia.

Don't use words like 'prove.' Yes the feat doesn't add to a character essentia pool. This does not imply that the feat can't do the act of investing. If you can find a rule that states that feats (specifically, so as to make sure PCI isn't an exception) can't do the investing, then that would be a proof.

The zero essentia in Midnight Augmentation becomes one essentia, for one round. No where in the activation of Psycarnum Infusion did we invest or put essentia into Midnight Augmentation. We instead changed what was already there into something else, zero essentia becoming one essentia.

how can a recepticle gain without something being put in?

How would, under your interpretation, a person with zero essentia (none at all), invest essentia into anything, be it a soulmeld, incarnum feat, class feature, or any other incarnum receptacle?

Normally they couldn't. PCI can do that for feats, though

[McPoyo]

Investing Essentia is a specific mechanic, though, based around allocating essentia from your essentia pool. Re-read page 49. If you don't have essentia leaving your pool and going into whatever receptacle it is being invested in, there is no investment. Psycarnum Infusion does not grant you free essentia to invest for a duration, it just lets you act like the receptacle was already full.

[Brainpiercing]

Or let's again take the case of using PCI on a feat that you actually HAVE invested essentia in:

For instance, you have capacity 2. You invest 1, now that 1 is locked, you cannot invest essentia in it anymore. BUT you can still use PCI, or else it would be totally useless. The feat nowhere states that it should only work on empty receptacles. It works on all receptacles.

I think this is just the wrong angle to disprove the combo. The right angle would be looking at the power points you actually do get (with Azure Talent). There is nothign at all wrong with Midnight Augmentation+PCI.

[Havok4]

The zero essentia in Midnight Augmentation becomes one essentia, for one round. No where in the activation of Psycarnum Infusion did we invest or put essentia into Midnight Augmentation. We instead changed what was already there into something else, zero essentia becoming one essentia.

how can a recepticle gain without something being put in?

The feats under the influence of PCI have an output equivalent to what they would have if incarnum was invested in it, that is what the whole treated like line is about, but there is no incarnum invested in it. So it never trips the daily limiter and you gain the benifit of the feat for that round.

[Sinfire Titan]

Let's put it another way: Say Psycarnum Infusion did follow the restrictions placed on Incarnum feats. Here's a few things wrong with that:

• You can only use it while shaping your soulmelds, which means you get it's ability for 1 round/feat at most.
• You can't gain your Psionic Focus while shaping your soulmelds, as it is interrupting your concentration (like preparing spells and trying to manifest a power).
• It becomes impossible to use Psycarnum Infusion with feats like Cobalt Rage.

By mere Reducto Ad Absurdum, it can be concluded that Psycarnum Infusion is an impractical feat if it follows the restrictions on Incarnum feats (meaning it's only good for class features, soulmelds, and magic items). I know WotC prints some stupid shit in poorly edited books (Illithid Heratige feats), but Magic of Incarnum has much better editing than the average book they put out. I highly doubt that Psycarnum Infusion was meant to follow restrictions other than your Psionic Focus and Antimagic.

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

Investing Essentia is a specific mechanic, though, based around allocating essentia from your essentia pool. Re-read page 49.

Check

If you don't have essentia leaving your pool and going into whatever receptacle it is being invested in, there is no investment.

Hmm. Can I get a rules quote on this?

For instance, you have capacity 2. You invest 1, now that 1 is locked, you cannot invest essentia in it anymore. BUT you can still use PCI, or else it would be totally useless.

I'm not sure you could still use PCI there.  Is it useless? Only in this circumstance. Like a rage feat ability after you have used all your daily rages.

The feat nowhere states that it should only work on empty receptacles. It works on all receptacles.

It needn't say it only works on empty ones even if that's the way it ends up working. If there existed incarnum feats with a 2/day limit would let PCI work for non-empty receptacles.

I think this is just the wrong angle to disprove the combo. The right angle would be looking at the power points you actually do get (with Azure Talent). There is nothing at all wrong with Midnight Augmentation+PCI.

Yes any fixes would be probably aimed at azure talent. But I'm checking RAW interaction

The feats under the influence of PCI have an output equivalent to what they would have if incarnum was invested in it, that is what the whole treated like line is about, but there is no incarnum invested in it. So it never trips the daily limiter and you gain the benifit of the feat for that round.

Unfortunately this didn't answer the question. But it does seem to be a valid mathematical interpretation. What it does not do is rule out the possibility that the 'treated as if it had essentia invested' part influences the other essentia-invested. Its starting to seem that the text is silent on the interaction (so it could go either way).

Let's put it another way: Say Psycarnum Infusion did follow the restrictions placed on Incarnum feats. Here's a few things wrong with that:

• You can only use it while shaping your soulmelds, which means you get it's ability for 1 round/feat at most.
• You can't gain your Psionic Focus while shaping your soulmelds, as it is interrupting your concentration (like preparing spells and trying to manifest a power).
• It becomes impossible to use Psycarnum Infusion with feats like Cobalt Rage.

You will have to explain the first two to me, I don't understand where you get that or where you are going with them. Since PSI doesn't allow any investing (or even give bonus essentia to your pool) it doesn't follow the 'you must chose the essentia to invest at the start of the day'

I'd like to point out that it does make sense for PSI to not work with already invested midnight augmentation. The reason is that basically a move actions to lower pp costs as much as you can is powerful, so it doesn't want this along with a standard only 1 focus blown requirement thanks to also having passive essentia invested.

Magic of Incarnum has much better editing than the average book they put out.

I agree, which is why I find it strange that they would allow infinite pp (which is what happens when PCI doesn't influence the 1/day invested limit)

Perhaps Sinfire is on to the smoking gun I'm after.

[Sohala]

Let's try a different approach.

I have soulmeld shaped, lets say Vitality Belt. I am level six so it has a capacity of two essentia. I have two essentia invested into it, gaining its normal benefits, 2*meldshaper level in hit points.

A.
I use Psycarnum Infusion, making Vitality Belt treated as if it had its full capacity, regardless of how many essentia is actually in it. Now I reinvest all the essentia from Vitality Belt into another incarnum receptacle(s). Vitality Belt is still giving me 2*meldshaper level in hit points.

B.
After reinvesting, but still in the same round, a random caster uses Divest Essentia, all my incarnum receptacle(s) lose their invested essentia in them, but Vitality Belt is still giving me 2*meldshaper level in hit points. Otherwise I would have just gained bonus essentia.

C.
Later a caster casts Essentia Lock on me, I have not reinvested into Vitality Belt, I use Psycarnum Infusion, making Vitality Belt treated as if it had its full capacity, I gain 2*meldshaper level in hit points.

D. (the example that assumes there is actual investment, so there is real essentia)
I use Psycarnum Infusion, making Vitality Belt treated as if it had its full capacity until the beginning of my next turn. I now reinvest the two essentia from Psycarnum Infusion into another incarnum receptacle(s). Vitality Belt is still treated as if it had its full capacity until the beginning of my next turn, but which essentia do I lose when my turn begins, the feat mentions only essentia in the incarnum receptacle you used it on? Would this allow for infinite essentia?

[Echoes]

which changes the amount in it (for that 1 round), which counts as the essentia in it (aka invested, by your own understanding), which the midnight x feats specifically say trips the 1/day limit. Since the pscarnum infusion feat does not have any specific text allowing an override, this is the way it stands (to me).

This is the problem. Psycarnum Infusion specifically does not add or remove essentia from anywhere. It lets you gain the benefits of incarnum receptacles as though they were full for 1 round, but it does not interact with essentia in any way.

That's why it doesn't trip the 1/day clause, because that is triggered by the act of investing essentia.

[Sohala]

which changes the amount in it (for that 1 round), which counts as the essentia in it (aka invested, by your own understanding), which the midnight x feats specifically say trips the 1/day limit. Since the pscarnum infusion feat does not have any specific text allowing an override, this is the way it stands (to me).

This is the problem. Psycarnum Infusion specifically does not add or remove essentia from anywhere. It lets you gain the benefits of incarnum receptacles as though they were full for 1 round, but it does not interact with essentia in any way.

That's why it doesn't trip the 1/day clause, because that is triggered by the act of investing essentia.

Far as I can tell, he is only considering gained essentia as being bonus essentia if it goes into his essentia pool, which is probably part of the problem.

[McPoyo]

Investing Essentia is a specific mechanic, though, based around allocating essentia from your essentia pool. Re-read page 49.

Check

If you don't have essentia leaving your pool and going into whatever receptacle it is being invested in, there is no investment.

Hmm. Can I get a rules quote on this?

I was using one of the standard English definitions for "investing".

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

I appreciate the creative thinking used to try to get to the bottom of this yall

Let's try a different approach.

Very nice 

Otherwise I would have just gained bonus essentia.

Interesting. I see where this was going. Other mechanics that interact can indicate the RAI. On a light read I thought this would definitely prove the common interpretation. Then I saw:

"Essentia invested in an incarnum receptacle that can't be reallocated as a swift action by the target as a swift action is unaffected by this spell."

So the PSI's invested incarnum doesn't go to the pool, so there is no bonus essentia or ability to reinvest it. I think the fact that they included that line is not a coincidence to PSI. All things equal, it looks like this favors my understanding.

The reason is I'm not sure PSI's 'treat as if' investment can be reallocated.

Psycarnum Infusion specifically does not add or remove essentia from anywhere. It lets you gain the benefits...

If only this were literally true. If PSI actually said "essentia is not actually invested during this process" you should say this  . What I was pointing out is that when you treat one thing as another, the penalties usually apply along with the benefits.

Far as I can tell, he is only considering gained essentia as being bonus essentia if it goes into his essentia pool, which is probably part of the problem.

Yes you are correct. You are also right that if you could show this not to be true, I will recant 

Investing Essentia is a specific mechanic, though, based around allocating essentia from your essentia pool. Re-read page 49.

Check

If you don't have essentia leaving your pool and going into whatever receptacle it is being invested in, there is no investment.

Hmm. Can I get a rules quote on this?

I was using one of the standard English definitions for "investing".

In that case why should using a feat to do the essentia input not count as investment? It seems strange to think investment can only come from 1 source (your pool).

[Anklebite]

psycarnum infusion states that "it is treated as if it had essentia invested in it equal to it's maximum capacity".

not that it actually has essentia added to it. just that it is treated as if it had. so, midnight augmentation is treated as if it had your max essentia allocation in it.  the essentia invested does not change. this can lead to the rather humorous situation of it not doing anything. midnight augmentation states that you choose the power it effects when you invest essentia, which you can do only once per day. so, if you use psycarnum infusion on midnight augmentation before you invest essentia into it, it doesn't actually effect any powers.

remember that there is a major difference between "gains essentia invested in it up to it's maximum" and "treated as if it had essentia invested in it equal to it's maximum capacity". 

by a strict RAW ruling, the interaction of these feats works as intended. that's a first. 

[Brainpiercing]

psycarnum infusion states that "it is treated as if it had essentia invested in it equal to it's maximum capacity".
..
 so, if you use psycarnum infusion on midnight augmentation before you invest essentia into it, it doesn't actually effect any powers.

Yes, but the point here, is, you use 1 incarnum in MA to augment the power of choice, but when you need MORE augmentation, you blow focus on it.

And the only real abuse PCI can do is still with Azure Talent, allowing you Cap*2 power points for one round and the price of a move action, as long as you have one PP left (from an item).

[McPoyo]

In relation to the question you posed in that last quote of my post you made, it is like Anklebite reiterated, "Treated as" is the key that says no essentia is invested. Not bonus essentia, not phantom essentia, not regular essentia. There is a strong precedent in D&D that backs that up, as well.

[Sohala]

Otherwise I would have just gained bonus essentia.

Interesting. I see where this was going. Other mechanics that interact can indicate the RAI. On a light read I thought this would definitely prove the common interpretation. Then I saw:

"Essentia invested in an incarnum receptacle that can't be reallocated as a swift action by the target as a swift action is unaffected by this spell."

So the PSI's invested incarnum doesn't go to the pool, so there is no bonus essentia or ability to reinvest it. I think the fact that they included that line is not a coincidence to PSI. All things equal, it looks like this favors my understanding.

Lets review what I posted. In A we used PSI on a meld that was already capped, so by your understanding it would gain nothing from this, but then we removed the invested essentia, the effect is still in place giving the meld's invested effect. Now, through your understanding how does that work? I invested nothing back into it to gain the effect, the meld can't have four essentia in it.

With B we followed up on A saying that the meld is empty of essentia, and that we got all our essentia shifted back to our pool with Divest Essentia. The reason it does not affect the meld is because it has nothing in it, as per what happened in A.

C shows that even with investing blocked we can use PSI, but wait would that mean we didn't invest anything?!

Now D, following your understanding, we have said that PSI gives essentia equal to cap, into an incarnum receptacle. No where in PSI does it say we cannot reinvest essentia gained, nor does it state anything about the incarnum receptacle we put the essentia in, or even state anything about the incarnum receptacle we first used the effect on. Before you say, "You can't reinvest essentia gained from PSI," remember you said it had to go to the essentia pool to count as bonus essentia, in which case it wouldn't be reinvest, but uninvested.

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

the only real abuse PCI can do is still with Azure Talent, allowing you Cap*2 power points for one round and the price of a move action, as long as you have one PP left (from an item).

True. My restricted reading of AT also applies to the midnight x feats (which is what I looked at first and got me thinking)

I understand the usual interpretation. I'm interested if my interpretation could be disproved.

Lets review what I posted.

k I reread it.

I should have been more specific that I agreed with you on part A & B. C is correct because the text of essentia lock says "the subject's allocation of essentia," which I assume to be only the subject's essentia, not the feat. I just wasn't sure on D

No where in PSI does it say we cannot reinvest essentia gained, nor does it state anything about the incarnum receptacle we put the essentia in, or even state anything about the incarnum receptacle we first used the effect on.

Quite right.

Before you say, "You can't reinvest essentia gained from PSI," remember you said it had to go to the essentia pool to count as bonus essentia, in which case it wouldn't be reinvest, but uninvested.

I'm not sure. Aside from the tense change, I might not understood this.

I thought the 'no bonus essentia' meant that unshaping the incarnum (I assume it would first go to your pool before being able to be invested elsewhere) that the feat invests simply wouldn't add to your essentia pool. Perhaps I'm looking at it from the opposite viewpoint as you. If you can show that above assumption to be incorrect, though, you will have proved the combo correct thanks to your thought experiment.

[Sohala]

Finally he has seen the light. We can all stop trying.

I agreed with you on part A

He agrees that Psycarnum Infusion doesn't need to involve any form of investment or actual essentia to work.