D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]

[Risada]

So what? It seems the Fighter is mostly done, and the Monk was kicked away for that.... maybe picking Monk after finishing the Fighter?

[Elennsar]

1) Orion, Jaron: Yes!

The "It has to be things that are sorta kinda possible but way beyond probable." sums it up.

Fighters (and monks and other nonmagic users) should be doing stuff that it is possible to imagine that a sufficiently trained human who has tapped into the Primal Power of the Human (Mind, body, soul, insert any or all *here*) could theoretically learn how to do, even if though this may be things that no lesser human by  (meaning anyone on Earth, historically, ever, or nearly so) could do.

But still human. We may want Jedi like feats of acrobatics, but we probably don't want to have someone teleporting from one end of Helm's Deep to the other. We probably don't want something like the Foxtrot comic where Jason and Marcus are playing D&D and Jason, defending Helm's Deep kills the 10,000 balrogs heading at his fortress with his elf's +255 bow.

We probably don't want something like Seven Samurai, where forty brigands kill five samurai (four? I seem to recall only two surviving).

I think a problem we have here is that people want to make Fighters able to compete with the spell users...but the "So make spellcasters less powerful!" aspect is viewed with dread. A bit of both is going to be necessary. Even if fighters can shoot from one end of the Milky Way to the other, having the game mean that all 20th level characters (or all epic level characters, or all any-point-we-actually-expect-to-play-to) being able to defeat Hordes effortlessly would be terrible. Heroic fantasy is about beating hordes not simply because you're awesome, but because you know what to do and are awesome enough to do it.

If the heroes can simply wipe out hundreds of enemies without difficulty, Helm's Deep is not cool any more. That would suck.

2) I'm going to agree with Orion here, to be honest. We either need to pick a class and stick to it, or hammer out what level we're setting this craziness at and go to the class most in need of being boosted to meet that or weakened to meet that as the case might be, and make it work at that level without making it boring or too complicated.

It doesn't really matter what class, but we need to pick one of them.

[RobbyPants]

What else... The ranger. I'd be nice to get that done. So we've so far given full compaion progression? What esle?

I'll repost what I said earlier on the ranger:

If I get around to it, I might attempt a rewrite of the ranger.  This started because I wanted to roll Improved and Greater TWF into the base TWF feat.  This, or course, leaves levels 6 and 11 open for Two-weapon specialist rangers.  I thought I could put Two-Weapon Rend at level 11, but I still hadn't decided on level 6.

Then I got thinking.  The only reason those abilities come at levels 6 and 11 are because that's the logical progression for ITWF and GTWF.  There's no reason the archery style feats need to come at those levels.  Maybe I could rewrite the progression a bit.

I see the reason not to grant Track and a combat style feat at level one.  I'm thinking of swithching the two, and granting Track at 2nd level.  This makes the ranger's combat style more viable at 1st level.  I also want to make the 1st archery feat Precise Shot (much more useful than Rapid Shot at that level, I think).

I think I could drop Endurance entirely, or at least grant something else useful at that level.  Tenatively, I might bring the Animal Companion to 3rd level, and grant the 2nd bonus style feat to 4th level.  I'll probably grant the full druid progression to the Animal Companion.

Beyond that, I havn't thought of much.  Is it worth givng them the Duskblade's casting progression, and creating a list of 5th level spells?

[Kuroimaken]

So how about giving archers a range of "anything within line of sight"? This is a reasonable enough limiter, since most archers would want good Spot modifiers anyway - nothing sucks more than getting hit by the HiPS sniper from hell. It doesn't keep them from hitting the moon, but it will probably keep them from picking stuff off its surface.

As far as precision goes, how about giving them an ability to increase critical multipliers with bows? Ranged attacks are pretty tough to tack bonuses onto.

[Elennsar]

So if he can Spot it, he can shoot at it without penalty? I can handle that. Of course, the BOW might still limit him (which is why you get an dragonbone longbow of distance or the like, if you want to make these kind of shots, but that's not a problem, honestly, is it?)

I realy like that. An archer with a great bow and great Spot will be hitting things way beyond anything human, but he'll also be way beyond anything on Earth in the capacities he's using to do it.

Precision...I agree with crit multipliers. Bows just don't have a whole hell of a lot of tricks that can viably be done with them (tripping someone with an arrow? Naaaah. Though disarming is not at all unbelievable. Shoot the fucker in the hand. : ) )

Shouldn't be too high an increase, however. Archers have the advantage of range and if they have any sense, they'll keep that advantage. So making them able to hit at extreme range and extremely hard could get unbalanced compared to their melee fellows. (Check this before we cement it, in other words)

[Orion]

So what? It seems the Fighter is mostly done, and the Monk was kicked away for that.... maybe picking Monk after finishing the Fighter?

I'm saying, do one class at a time and don't abandon it when it's "mostly" done. "Mostly" done is not the same as "all" done. For example, has anyone volunteered to put this information in one place once it's finished? Is there any repository for the design work we're creating? So far, we have a Fighter in red on the front page. The Monk doesn't even have a draft. I really don't want to seem like a task-master, here. If you'd like to just flit around, doing a bit of this and a bit of that, that's fine. I'm okay with that. If you'd like to actually produce any usable text, however, we need to focus. I

PS: "Line of Sight" is great for bows. I like that. Also, I have no problem with the idea that someone could be precise enough with a bow to plant an arrow right in front of your foot, so that you trip. At a high enough level, go for it. I'm in the front row, eating popcorn, at that movie.

[Elennsar]

Tripping on an arrow...

I'd like to see that, but I'm not sure I can imagine that from sheer imagination.

[JaronK]

So how about giving archers a range of "anything within line of sight"? This is a reasonable enough limiter, since most archers would want good Spot modifiers anyway - nothing sucks more than getting hit by the HiPS sniper from hell. It doesn't keep them from hitting the moon, but it will probably keep them from picking stuff off its surface.

No way.  Line of sight can be HUGE if you know what you're doing... Chain of Eyes or Malphas Birds, for example, would give you effectively unlimited range.  Not good at all.

As far as precision goes, how about giving them an ability to increase critical multipliers with bows? Ranged attacks are pretty tough to tack bonuses onto.

I've never had problems with this with my archers.   Archers are already powerful character types... they don't need much.  As a capstone ability at 20, something useful to an archer is handy... but overall they don't need a big pumping up.

JaronK

[Elennsar]

Suggestion:

Line of Sight, but max distance = maximum range from bow. So if you can see something three thousand feet off, unless your bow can hit something at three thousand feet, no gain for you.

So a mighty composite longbow (without enhancements) in the hands of someone with Far Shot can hit at up to 1650 feet...at no penalty.

[JaronK]

So why exactly are we giving the ability from the Cragtop Archer to the Fighter?  A class already has that ability, so what the heck is the point?  If a Fighter wants it, he'll PrC into the specialty class designed for it.

JaronK

[Elennsar]

Well, by that measure, why give any "I am really good at X" abilities? After oh, 6th-10th level, just take the relevant prestige class.

[RobbyPants]

I'm saying, do one class at a time and don't abandon it when it's "mostly" done. "Mostly" done is not the same as "all" done. For example, has anyone volunteered to put this information in one place once it's finished? Is there any repository for the design work we're creating? So far, we have a Fighter in red on the front page. The Monk doesn't even have a draft. I really don't want to seem like a task-master, here. If you'd like to just flit around, doing a bit of this and a bit of that, that's fine. I'm okay with that. If you'd like to actually produce any usable text, however, we need to focus.

My plan is to put "finished" classes on the front page.  They still can be changed, but I wanted to wait to post them there until they seemed reaonably close.

I'm fine with going back to the monk.

* In a few hours, I have to go out of town for a wedding, so I won't be able to check these boards for close to two days.  I'm going to try and catch up on Sunday.

[Elennsar]

Enjoy the wedding. My best wishes to the newly weds.

[Orion]

I'm glad there's a plan, Robby. I just wanted to make sure there was a system in place to actually record and collate the information we've generated. Cheers!

[JaronK]

Well, by that measure, why give any "I am really good at X" abilities? After oh, 6th-10th level, just take the relevant prestige class.

Because some abilities aren't found in PrCs already.  For example "Your reach increases by 5', and the range increment of all ranged weapons doubles" is not actually found in any PrC.  The latter effect is found in a Ranger/Druid spell, and the former as a feat that requires one prerequisite and gives you a -1 to hit permanently, but the overall effect as an always on thing with no penalty doesn't exist already.

JaronK

[Midnight_v]

Uhm... not that I'm refuting your point (because I'm not)
but your reach increases by five feet exists in a prc called....

uhm... Damn... 1 sec.

.... Warshaper... (forgive me if thats what you were referncing.)

The big thing about this is.. Having my threatend area be increased by five feet should  not require me to be a shapeshifter I mean... what the f...?
*sigh* and its like that with many prcs frankly.
I mean I still think that prcs shuold exist, but I dont' think that we should "HAVE" to prc out to get
"every" ability... there's a limiter on that, though.
 Even at that we want to give good abilities to the core classes such that it actually is a "question" as to Hmm... should I prc out? I'll really miss "true grit" or greater surprise lunge.
The warshaper should still net you other awesome stuff.
.... hmm... okay that sounds like gibberish.
Rephrase:
Even if the ability "IS" found in a prc, that doesn't mean that it shouldn't be a feat. Some should some shouldn't... has to be decided individualy. There... will be some overlap and thats okay. Really  Plus some effects stack or can be manipulated to come online earlier (which is good yay!) along with other good stuff. . .

Funny thing about Elennsars post is that Frank and K? Did just that with the knight, its a 10 level base class that afterwards you "HAVE to prc" or multiclass, its not a bad idea really. Though its vastly different from anything else in 3.5...

  So yeah Jaronk I agree. There's a good reason to have non-prc feats, and also some feats will/should overlap prc ablities and really there's nothing wrong with that. The prcs give you a complete "package" of goods the fighters let you cherry pick some of them.
  Prc's would be huge to tackle everyone of them, so we shouldn't. As long as we have useful base classes, some prc's will fall to the wayside. . .
  However, someone will really want to be a "Warshaper" still, because its abilities are good/ and its flavor is what they want.
  The fighter (anyclass) should be the same way.
I'm really pleased with the way these discussions are shaping up.

[JaronK]

Whoops, forgot the Warshaper.  But that's a completely different character concept (whereas Cragtop Archer is basically a long range archer, so that's pretty much the same concept).

JaronK

[Midnight_v]

No. No, its cool I meant for my argument to actually support yours.

Theres no reason a fighter shouldn't have access to many abilities. Some of which will exist otherwise only as spell or prc abilities.

Chosing a prc for one ability shouldn't really happen consistently. Unless if varies wildly from the base class idea.
Largely it should be becasuse you fit the idea and like the package. Which is why I prefer 5 level prcs. . .
Hmm..
Ahh more later.

[JaronK]

Well, I like the idea of PrCs letting you focus somewhere else.  A Fighter might be an archer, but a Cragtop Archer specifically would be an archer who focuses on long range to the exclusion of other stuff (basically all other archery abilities).  Right now that's basically how it is.  And I'd like to keep that difference there... Cragtop Archers have incredible range, but they can't make full attacks at that range.

JaronK

[Midnight_v]

MonkClass FeaturesAll of the following are class features of the monk.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency
Monks are proficient with club, crossbow (light or heavy), dagger, handaxe, javelin, kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, siangham, and sling.

Monks are not proficient with any armor or shields

When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a monk loses her AC bonus, as well as her fast movement and flurry of blows abilities. [/left]
AC Bonus (Ex)
When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds her Wisdom bonus (if any) to her AC. In addition, a monk gains a +1 bonus to AC at 5th level. This bonus increases by 1 every odd level thereafter (+2 at 7tth, +3 at 9th, and +4 at 11th level ad so on).

These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the monk is flat-footed. She loses these bonuses when she is immobilized or helpless, when she wears any armor, when she carries a shield, or when she carries a medium or heavy load.

Flurry of Blows (Ex) as phb

Improved UnarmedStrike: as phb

Enlightened Strike (G. Stunning Fist / Immobilizing strike)Bonus Feats:
2nd level, she may select a bonus feat, drawn from the list of fighter feats
6th level, she may a bonus feat, drawn from the list of fighter feats

Evasion (Ex)
At 2nd level or higher if a monk makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if a monk is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless monk does not gain the benefit of evasion.

Combat Insight (Ex): starting at 3rd level and at every 3 levels thereafter the monk gains a +1 insight bonus on attacks of opportunity, Disarm, Grapple and Trip attempts. Additionally, whenever the monk succeeds at such checks, it may make a free attack againt her foe (at her highest attack bonus). This attack isn't considered an attack of opportunity.


Fast Movement (Ex)
At 3rd level, a monk gains an enhancement bonus to her speed, as shown on Table: The Monk. A monk in armor or carrying a medium or heavy load loses this extra speed.

Still Mind (Ex)
A monk of 3rd level through discipline and focus can postpone the effects of spells and effects from the school of enchantment. The monk must make his save as per normal however you may delay the actual effects for a number of rounds equal to your wisdom modifier or 4 which ever is lower at which point you are affected normally.


Ki Strike (Su)Slow Fall (Ex)Purity of Body (Ex)
At 5th level, a monk gains immunity to all poisons and diseases except for supernatural and magical diseases.

Storm of Blows: At 6th level, as a full-round action, monks can move between flurry attacks. The can move their base speed (the equivalent of one move action), and make one full Flurry attack. They must move at least 5 feet before and 5 feat after their first and last attacks.

Wholeness of Body (Su)
At 7th level or higher, a monk can heal her own wounds. She can heal a number of hit points of damage equal to 4 times the monks level each day, and she can spread this healing out among several uses. Addtionally the monk may instead spend 5 points from this pool to heal 1 point of ability damage or 20 points to remove a negative level.

Ki Reinforce (Sp): starting at 8th level, three times per day, the monk can make a Concentration check as a swift action, then inbue her attacks with force damage, based on the check result, as below:

Check result........Bonus Damage
15 or below.........Total + 1d6 Force Damage
16-25.................Total +2d6 Force Damage
26-30.................Total +3d6 Force Damage
31-35.................Total +4d6 Force Damage
36+....................Total +5d6 Force Damage + the opponent saves or is knocked prone from the impact.

This ability lasts for 1 minute.

Improved Evasion (Ex)Diamond Body (Su)
At 11t level, the monk, gains immunity to the following conditions: Blindness, Deafness, exastion, fatigue, Nauseated, Petrified, stunned, sickened,  and can ignore the effects of being staggered or unconscious (effectively gaining the die hard feat but without allowing it to qual for other feats)

Abundant Step (Su)
At 12th level or higher, a monk can slip magically between spaces, as if using the spell dimension door, once per point of wisdom modifier per day. Her caster level for this effect is one-half her monk level (rounded down).

Diamond Soul (Ex)Quivering Palm (Su)Timeless Body (Ex)
Upon attaining 17th level, a monk no longer takes penalties to her ability scores for aging and cannot be magically aged. Any such penalties that she has already taken, however, remain in place. Bonuses still accrue, and the monk still dies of old age when her time is up. Damage reduction increases by two

Tongue of the Sun and Moon (Ex)
A monk of 17th level or higher can speak with any living creature.

Empty Body (Su)
At 19th level, a monk gains the ability to assume an ethereal state for 1 round per monk level per day, as though using the spell etherealness. She may go ethereal on a number of different occasions during any single day, as long as the total number of rounds spent in an ethereal state does not exceed her monk level.

Perfect Self (su):Dr 10/Chaotic and silver.
Enlightend One
You may radiate an immaculate light to a range of 60ft at will. This grants you total concealment and lasts 4 rounds. This is a visual effect that is not bypassed by true seeing. However, creatures who do not use sight (oozes and the such) are unaffected by this power This effect may only be dispelled by a  darkness spell of 7th level or higher. You may use this ability each day a number or times equal to your wisdom modifier.

Awe of perfection: You are under the permanent effects of a Sanctuary spell DC = 10 + monk level + wisdom
Constructs, Elementals, Mindless undead, and other outsiders are immune to this effect, or any other creature that does not have an age maximum age limit (or that is defined as immortal) are immune to this effect. (this does however affect exceptionally long lived creatures Dragons, elves, elan etc...
Immunity to Magic (Ex)
You are immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance. Though you may supress this ability as a full round action, and the supression lasts for one round (untill just before your next turn.) This replaces the dimond soul ability
Walk the path: You may plane shift (as the spell) twice perday as a supernatural ability. You are immune to the harmful enviormnetal effects (temperature extremes, lack of oxygen) This ability takes one full round to use.

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