Brilliant Gameologists Forum
The Thinktank => Min/Max It! => : the_shadowmind October 17, 2010, 01:08:39 AM
-
Skip to page 3 for current build idea.
Since my original idea got nixed(Cloistered Cleric 1/Binder 8/Totemist 1/KotSS 5//Petal 2,Shadow Creature 2/Draconic 1/Factotum 8/Paladin 2)
Playing as a Petal got denied.
I decided to home here for ideas.
Link to the Tower Deadly Evil's rules:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=169147 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=169147).
What I was trying for was a Binder, with extra actions(Factotum), with high AC(Divine shield, KotSS), hard to hit(Shadow creature's total Concealment), and unlikely to fail a save(Paladin CHA to saves.)
tl,dr
15 level gestalt game, feat every level, max 6 classes, all books open, no LA buyoff, I want to play a Binder, see link for allowed homebrew.
Edit: To prevent confusion, this is the build as of right now:
Half-Fey, Phrenic Dragonwrought Earth Kobold.
Base stats:Str 10, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 16, Cha 16.
Stats after templates: Str 8, Dex 12, Con 10, Int 21, Wis 23, Cha 27
The 4,8, and 12 stat bonus not chosen yet(+2 Con, +1 Cha?)
1:Binder 1//Phrenic -Dragon Wrough
2:Binder 2//Phrenic
3:Binder 3//Half-fey
4:Binder 4//Half-fey :Spell Focus(evil)
5:Binder 5//Factotum 1 Otyugh Hole (Iron will) 3,000gp
6:Binder 6// Ur-priest 1
7:Binder 7//Ur-priest 2
8:Binder 8//Tenebrous Apostate
9:Monk 1//Tenebrous Apostate
10:Monk 2//Tenebrous Apostate
11:Paladin of Tyranny 1//Tenebrous Apostate
12:Paladin of Tyranny2 //Tenebrous Apostate
13:Binder 9//Ur-priest.
14:Binder 10//Ur-Priest
15:Binder 11//Ur-priest.
-
Are racial HD and LA on one side or both?
If they're on one side, play a sharn.
-
It is on one side. I know Sharn is in Monsters of Faueron, but I'm not sure if I have that book, my friend might if I don't though.
-
The updated version is anuroch: the empire of shade.
They're entirely broken (three standards + 1 move per round for starters, and more special abilities than your character sheet has room for)
-
Okay, I think I might go with Sharn if I can get my hands of on the book, but assuming I can't any other suggestions? I don't have much Faerun stuff on me.
-
I am pretty sure that if his DM won't let him play as a petal, he won't let him use a sharn.
-
Some one was already playing a Sharn, and it hasn't been added to the ban list. Yeah disallowing Petal , but allowing Sharn....
Ur-priest isn't on the ban list.
-
You have enough room for the paragon template
-
Dual-Progression PrCs are in, too.
How about something like...
Advanced Sharn 15 | Wizard 3/Ultimate Magus 9/somethingobnoxious 3
Huge Size (+3 Natural Armor, -1 to attacks, huge damage boosts)
15th Wizard casting, 15th Sorcerer casting, 9th Favored Soul casting
Racial Bonuses: +16 Str, +8 Dex, +14 Con, +14 Int, +14 Wis, +16 Cha
If we assume a base 10 in all stats and Haste we get:
Full Attack:
Large Greatsword +17/+17/+12 (3d6+12/19-20)
Large Greatsword +17 (3d6+8/19-20)
Large Greatsword +17 (3d6+8/19-20)
Large Greatsword +17 (3d6+8/19-20)
Bite +15/+15/+15 (4d6+4)
Claw +15 (1d8+4) <--- also a free hand for somatic/material components for Wizard spells.
That's just begging for some Wraithstrike/Power Attack action.
-
Advancing sharn seems pretty inferior to just slapping on mystic theurge.
-
Advancing sharn seems pretty inferior to just slapping on mystic theurge.
Then stick it in the "somethingobnoxious" slot, but if you go both Mystic Theurge and Ultimate Magus then you're going to overkill the Sorcerer progression, and I prefer Ultimate Magus because it has class features.
-
That topic makes me cringe. "Contigency," "Incantrix," "Planaar Sheperd," "Divine Metamagic: Hieghten," "Planaar Touchstones," "Linked Syncrocity," "maneouvers," "consitently," "Naerubus"...
-
That topic makes me cringe. "Contigency," "Incantrix," "Planaar Sheperd," "Divine Metamagic: Hieghten," "Planaar Touchstones," "Linked Syncrocity," "maneouvers," "consitently," "Naerubus"...
... What?
-
That topic makes me cringe. "Contigency," "Incantrix," "Planaar Sheperd," "Divine Metamagic: Hieghten," "Planaar Touchstones," "Linked Syncrocity," "maneouvers," "consitently," "Naerubus"...
... What?
Look through the post with the Tower rules. Those are some of the typos you'll find.
-
All the more reason to make a character that will obliterate the game IMO.
-
It's not like it's competitive PvP. It's cooperative PvE being run by volunteer GMs, which makes it kind of a dick move to go in there and obliterate everything with one of the canonical TO tricks. Go and politely inform them that their creation rules are sufficiently loose to allow completely game-annihilating shenanigans and make a few suggestions about how to fix them if you really feel the need.
-
It's not like it's competitive PvP. It's cooperative PvE being run by volunteer GMs, which makes it kind of a dick move to go in there and obliterate everything with one of the canonical TO tricks. Go and politely inform them that their creation rules are sufficiently loose to allow completely game-annihilating shenanigans and make a few suggestions about how to fix them if you really feel the need.
It does say right there in the description that this is a place to play "a build that would be so powerful you thought you could never play [it]." Honestly, they're kind of asking for it. :P
-
I guess. I still take that as an invitation to come in and actually get to play the King of Smack, or a quadrupedal Hulking Hurler, or even a gestalted Ultimate Magus Sharn...just not Pun-Pun, a d2 Crusader, a recursive-Awakening Druid, or Azrael.
-
I guess. I still take that as an invitation to come in and actually get to play the King of Smack, or a quadrupedal Hulking Hurler, or even a gestalted Ultimate Magus Sharn...just not Pun-Pun, a d2 Crusader, a recursive-Awakening Druid, or Azrael.
Note two very odd things you said...
1) The Ultimate Magus Sharn is exactly the build I suggested, and frankly it is quite capable of shattering that game to little, tiny bits just as much as Pun-Pun is.
2) Azrael's a bitch, he's not Pun-Pun.
-
I'm not really objecting to your build in particular so much as the attitude of applying to anyone's game with the express purpose of 'shattering it to little, tiny bits' or 'obliterating the game'. If your goal is to show them that their character creation rules are too permissive, then quit maliciously dicking around and tell them that their character creation rules are too permissive. Setting out specifically to destroy someone's game is the sort of thing that gives CharOp a bad name.
-
I'm not really objecting to your build in particular so much as the attitude of applying to anyone's game with the express purpose of 'shattering it to little, tiny bits' or 'obliterating the game'. If your goal is to show them that their character creation rules are too permissive, then quit maliciously dicking around and tell them that their character creation rules are too permissive.
My goal is to screw with the guy because he doesn't know how to spell "Hieghten," and yet he somehow seems to know that it's so overpowered that it must be banned from his game. Sorry, but "Australian" doesn't count as a native language. What's more, if he doesn't know what this crap is then he shouldn't be accepting it into his campaign at all, he should be looking it over before the player even writes up their character.
-
So you're saying that normally it wouldn't be OK to screw with him, but it's OK because you're his intellectual superior?
-
By the way, he's reading this thread. And he min/maxes too. And he does look over each character, and has contingencies for them.
-
So you're saying that normally it wouldn't be OK to screw with him, but it's OK because you're his intellectual superior?
Chances are I'd screw with him regardless, but in this case I have a reason.
By the way, he's reading this thread. And he min/maxes too. And he does look over each character, and has contingencies for them.
Awesome! Maybe this means all those painful spelling errors will get fixed.
-
So you're saying that normally it wouldn't be OK to screw with him, but it's OK because you're his intellectual superior?
Chances are I'd screw with him regardless, but in this case I have a reason.
By the way, he's reading this thread. And he min/maxes too. And he does look over each character, and has contingencies for them.
Awesome! Maybe this means all those painful spelling errors will get fixed.
Cool! You're also a dick and give CO a bad name.
-
Is the bad name easier to spell, though?
-
Their intentions seem a bit schizophrenic, though. "Hey, come play whatever you want here! As powerful as you can get! Whoa, is that DMM: Heighten? Slow down there, buddy."
Seriously, DMM: Heighten gets the boot and not DMM: Quicken/Persist? Or the RKV? Or just DMM in general? Persisted Delay Death and not Guidance of the Avatar? Mineral Warrior and not the Sharn? You can have dual progression PrCs in gestalt but initiator classes have to go through level by level to pick maneuvers instead of using their IL at level 15?
-
Their intentions seem a bit schizophrenic, though. "Hey, come play whatever you want here! As powerful as you can get! Whoa, is that DMM: Heighten? Slow down there, buddy."
Seriously, DMM: Heighten gets the boot and not DMM: Quicken/Persist? Or the RKV? Or just DMM in general? Persisted Delay Death and not Guidance of the Avatar? Mineral Warrior and not the Sharn? You can have dual progression PrCs in gestalt but initiator classes have to go through level by level to pick maneuvers instead of using their IL at level 15?
Nevermind feeling the need to call out and explicitly ban various things with several innocuous applications all because one specific application (DMM: Heighten must have gotten on there because of Shadow Miracles), instead of taking the more sensible approach to obnoxiously high-powered games: mutually assured destruction.
-
Actually, DMM heighten is probably on there from when I guy I gave advice to tried to use it in the Test of Spite for 9d6 forceneedles.
-
Nevermind feeling the need to call out and explicitly ban various things with several innocuous applications all because one specific application (DMM: Heighten must have gotten on there because of Shadow Miracles), instead of taking the more sensible approach to obnoxiously high-powered games: mutually assured destruction.
The tower is supposed to be hard, you're supposed to bring in your best stuff to beat it, but if you bring in something too powerful (in other words, something that has a decent chance of, you know, winning), it gets nerfed into oblivion for no apparent reason. Why can't the poor Factotum take FoI with all these feats they're given? Nobody knows. Why can't you make more than 10 attacks a round? Beats me.
Actually, DMM heighten is probably on there from when I guy I gave advice to tried to use it in the Test of Spite for 9d6 forceneedles.
Shouldn't that be 9d4, or is Invisible Needle not the feat you had in mind?
-
For what it's worth, I can understand barring DMM: Heighten and not DMM: Quicken/Persist, because even though it's less generally useful it seems to have potential for very easy extremely-early-entry shenanigans which the others do not. (That said, I can't actually think off the top of my head what I'd use it to early-enter, but there it is.)
-
I'm not meaning to break the game. I was looking help on making another effective binder or another +2 LA race with the large stat boosts Petal gives.
Maybe something along the lines of Binder/Kotss(Tenebrous)//Something 5/Ur-priest X//Tenebrous Apostate.
-
I'm not meaning to break the game. I was looking help on making another effective binder or another +2 LA race with the large stat boosts Petal gives.
Maybe something along the lines of Binder/Kotss(Tenebrous)//Something 5/Ur-priest X//Tenebrous Apostate.
Wow, it looks like the most random tangent ever, but it's actually what the thread is supposed to be about.
For +2 LA, Phrenic is where it's at. Doesn't give the stat boosts of a petal, but it gives killer psi-likes.
-
I'm not meaning to break the game. I was looking help on making another effective binder or another +2 LA race with the large stat boosts Petal gives.
Maybe something along the lines of Binder/Kotss(Tenebrous)//Something 5/Ur-priest X//Tenebrous Apostate.
Wow, it looks like the most random tangent ever, but it's actually what the thread is supposed to be about.
For +2 LA, Phrenic is where it's at. Doesn't give the stat boosts of a petal, but it gives killer psi-likes.
I was originally going do do LA 0 races, Phrenic, Half-fey. But then I remember the stat bonus of the Petal. Maybe a Greensnake Naga(+1 la) with either half-fey or phrenic template. It I juggle the Binder advancement, I might be able to get 11 levels of Binder/Advancement on one side, and the other side have the remaining 4, then pick 4 levels of dips for the remaining side. I more MAD this way, but should still have access to 9th level spells.
-
Actually, DMM heighten is probably on there from when I guy I gave advice to tried to use it in the Test of Spite for 9d6 forceneedles.
Shouldn't that be 9d4, or is Invisible Needle not the feat you had in mind?
Yeah, whatever the reserve feat says. I think it was with summon elemental anyway.
-
Okay right now the build looks like this:
[spoiler]
Half-Fey, Phrenic Dragonwrought Earth Kobold.
Base stats:Str 10, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 16, Cha 16.
Stats after templates: Str 8, Dex 12, Con 10, Int 21, Wis 23, Cha 27
The 4,8, and 12 stat bonus not chosen yet(+2 Con, +1 Cha?)
1:Binder 1//Phrenic -Dragon Wrough
2:Binder 2//Phrenic
3:Binder 3//Half-fey
4:Binder 4//Half-fey :Spell Focus(evil)
5:Binder 5//Factotum 1 Otyugh Hole (Iron will) 3,000gp
6:Binder 6// Ur-priest 1
7:Binder 7//Ur-priest 2
8:Binder 8//Tenebrous Apostate
9:Monk 1//Tenebrous Apostate
10:Monk 2//Tenebrous Apostate
11:Paladin of Tyranny 1//Tenebrous Apostate
12:Paladin of Tyranny2 //Tenebrous Apostate
13:Binder 9//Ur-priest.
14:Binder 10//Ur-Priest
15:Binder 11//Ur-priest.
[/spoiler]
-
You need a higher con. I would recommend dropping your int by 2 and putting those points into con instead. Also be sure to pick up an amulet of health. You will also want to pick mainly boost based vestiges because you will have so many standard action abilities due to your templates.
-
Okay just found out that PrC's don't count toward the 6 class limit, so I can replace the last 3 Binder levels with KotSS, or take another Divine progressing PrC on the Ur-Priest side for those last 3 levels. If I lower the Int, I might need to spend a feat on Open Minded to grab 5 skill points for the prerequisite.
-
I forgot about skill requirements. You still need to get a higher con from somewhere.
-
About the Con. With this build, anyway to get persistent Bite of the Werebear?
Or maybe an easier way to get a higher con score? I'm hoping for a way to get to 22 with out the using a Manual of Bodily Health.
+6 CON for the amulet, that leaves 6 or more to go to meet or beat the 22 Con. goal.
edit: Or a way to get large amounts of temp. Hp.
-
There's always the psycrystal/Vigor/Share Pain trick for hueg Temporary HP. An Illumian Wilder15 with the Krau sigil and an Orange Ioun Stone gets an effective 230 temp HP for one maximally augmented manifesting of Vigor.
Greater Consumptive Field works, too.
And if you're really intent on focusing on temporary HP, you can take Cleric 15 on one side of your gestalt to cast GCF and Wilder15 on the other side of your gestalt to use the increase in CL/ML (gotta love transparency!) granted to you by GCF to get an effective 300 out of one maximally augmented manifesting of vigor once they've whittled down the temp HP granted by GCF to below that.
Or hell, if you feel like truly blowing the doors off of this schtick, conceptually stretching psionic/magics transparency to the breaking point, and having a good chance of getting your build slapped down, gestalt an arcane casting class that gets a familiar, treat its Share Spells as equivalent to Share Powers, Share Pain both it and the psycrystal, and get an effective 345 temp HP out of one maximally augmented manifesting of Vigor- 450 if you abuse Greater Consumptive Field in the above manner.
Edit: Oh, you have an actual build. One without actual manifesting or cleric levels.
Well, that was useless. C'est la vie.
-
Okay trying out a new build idea, going with the Sharn that was earlier suggested.
Right now the build looks this:
Binder 9/Anima Mage 6(advancing Sharn(Sorc.)//LA 5/HD 4/Cloisted Cleric 1/Favored Soul 5[Stacking with Sharn(Favored soul)].
The cloistered cleric level is for turn undead, for divine feats.
So which feats and spells do you recommend with an effective level of 15 Binder, Sorcerer 11, Favored Soul 11, with the lovely turning spells into SLAs effect that the sharn has? Maybe taking a feat for shapesoul meld:?.
-
Favorable sacrifice is probably the cheesiest SLA conversion.
-
Would giving up a level of favored soul progression for sandshaper(applying to sorcerer) for all those spells known, and grabbing versatile spellcaster to cast a 6th level spell from that list, be worth it?
-
i believe it should be noted that:
(from the SRD)
A gestalt character can’t combine two prestige classes at any level, although it’s okay to combine a prestige class and a regular class. Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations-such as the arcane trickster, mystic theurge, and eldritch knight-should be prohibited if you’re using gestalt classes, because they unduly complicate the game balance of what’s already a high-powered variant.
i would think that anima mage would fit in to that...
-
For the Tower, you can use the dual advancing prcs, but not two prc's at the same level, so yes I'd lose a level of sorcerer and favored soul, in order to gain sandshaper. I gain no new features at anima mage 6 so that isn't a that much of a lose over just the 10th level of binder, and right now I'm thinking of going to DMM-Persist route.
-
I've looked around a bit but can't find any rules about taking 1 prestige class on both sides at the same time (ex: taking frenzied berzerker 5 on one side and 5 on the other gets a 10 level class done seemingly faster)
-
Right now the build looks like Binder 10/Anima Mage 5//Sharn 9/Cloistered cleric 1/Favored soul 4/Sand Shaper 1.
So Binding 3 vestiges, 1/day free metamagic, grabbing planning and undeath domain to so only Persist and DMM:Persist to grab as feats, Sorcerer level 11 casting, Favored Soul level 10.
So what are decent Favored Souls/Sorcerer spells to take, and a few to persist. And at least 1 good sorcerer spell to persist, using the vestige metamagic.
Stats:Str 18, Dex 20, Con 25, Int, Wis 24, Cha 28.(No items at this point).
-
Wings of Cover/Flurry, the Primal line.
In general look for books about dragons for decent sorcerer-only spells, like Draconomicon, Dragon Magic, and Races of the Dragon.
-
the Primal line.
they already last 24 hours?
-
To me, it's either about a sharn or a phaerimm.. on one hand, sharn are pretty incredible, have loads of abilities and can't be polymorph'd in any way while on the other, phaerimm have innate casting which is enough for me to warrant looking at them.
-
Consider taking the multivoice feat from Savage Species. Now you can cast 3 spells per round not counting swift actions (1 Full Round Action casts two spells from Sorcerer and 1 standard action from Favored Soul or Vice Versa.)
Also if doing gestalt and you can choose how the LA/HD works on one side there is little down side on grabbing the multihead template and going 4 heads. You gain 2 heads and 2 LA but in return
1) Gain 1 additional FS level (from the Sharn part about gaining HD that aren't class levels)
2) Gain 1 additional Sorcerer level (from the Sharn part about gaining HD that aren't class levels)
3) Gain 2 Int, 2 Wis, 2 Cha (from the Sharn part about gaining HD that aren't class levels)
4) Gain 2 Con (from Multiheaded)
5) Superior Multiweapon Fighting ability (no penalties for Multiweapon Fighting and all hands are treated as primary and thus get more str bonus)
*) Improved Initiative and Combat Reflexes as bonus feats (the sample Sharn has Combat Reflexes as a normal feat from hit dice, but if you play a Sharn you can choose another feat in its place.)
*) Darkvision 90ft
*) +2 racial bonus on Listen, Search and Spot checks.
*) +1 NA
-
Combat reflexes isn't racial for sharns, IIRC.
-
Combat reflexes isn't racial for sharns, IIRC.
You are correct, my mistake, they have Combat Reflexes as a normal feat in the sample progression, previous post has been edited. Thank you.
-
So you're saying that normally it wouldn't be OK to screw with him, but it's OK because you're his intellectual superior?
I'm just waiting for the day that someone decides that "ignorant moron" is an ethnic group, and thus cannot be discriminated against.
-- Christian Wagner
Chris, my friend, wait no longer.
-
So you're saying that normally it wouldn't be OK to screw with him, but it's OK because you're his intellectual superior?
I'm just waiting for the day that someone decides that "ignorant moron" is an ethnic group, and thus cannot be discriminated against.
-- Christian Wagner
Chris, my friend, wait no longer.
I like you.
-
What is a way to get very high AC with sorcerer 11, favored soul 10, Binder 15?. ta
STR 18, Dex 22(20 +2 item), Con 30(25 +5 item), int 24, wis 24, Cha 34(+6 item)
I know with divine shield I can get +12 AC, and have 5 ac from natural armor, and with Dahlver-Nah I can get an additional +5 to natural armor. Only 18,000 for a +3 protection ring. I can get a +3 master work buckler for only a bit more than 9,000.gp For under 10,000 I can add a +3 nonhumanoid chain shirt for another 7 ac.
So right now the AC is at 51 when I spend the standard action on divine shield(I get 3 standard actions around for buffing is easier).