Brilliant Gameologists Forum
The Thinktank => Talespinning => : bhu January 12, 2011, 09:10:51 PM
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I'd like to run a Lovecraftian campaign set in America after the Revolutionary War, and I'd like a few history bufss to weigh n on some questions:
The US will be cut off from the outside world. How will this effect the economy, particularly now that there will be no more slaves or imports?
Would the US be likely to remain a united group or would the states fragment?
How long after the war should I wait before it starts?
The idea is that it was the world as it really was, but several people on either side managed to accidentally open Gates that randomly lead to other realities, and now the areas around them are swarming with monstrosities from dozens of worlds.
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The economic effects will vary based on exactly when. Shortly after the revolutionary war there still would be slavery which would probably consist of primarily Native Americans and people from the areas that would eventually be Mexico and the Bahamas. Post Civil war would likely lead to lots of fights about returning to slavery as they would have no other industrialized nations to trade with. The lack of imports will be the biggest change, particularly in the import of people for cheap labor and technological/educational changes that were discovered outside of North America.
For the US remaining solidified I find that extremely unlikely. There would be way too much competition for resources. Not to mention the lack of any external force to keep the country unified against that outside force.
This really depends on when you want the Americas to be cut off and what level of technology you want for the game. Culture will deviate more from history the longer the continent is in isolation.
If you can give me more specific scenarios I can give better answers. Plus I could do some targeted research on the time frames involved and perhaps even the areas.
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I want to set it in a port city that has nearby rural areas or towns, and it shouldn't be more than a year or 2 after the war.
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Heh, I'm currently taking an AP United States History course, so this is right up my alley.
It really depends on whether we're talking north or south here, really; the South still had many more slaves than the north, especially in North Carolina. Remember though that directly after the war, many slaves (not in absolute percentages) were manumitted, and suffrage was actually extended to blacks and women. Temporarily, at least. Also, something to keep in mind is that the economy was weak, and not just because of trade; the Continental Congress (the predecessor of the United States) was an extremely weak government, so interstate trade tended to suck. A lot. Because a lot of the states had their own currency.
They will also have issues with Indian raids, depending on how far west you are, and the British troops didn't actually leave any of their forts to the west.
How are you going to explain America winning the Revolutionary War without contact with France? Is it because of Lovecraftian monstrosities? And another thing you have to accept is that most of the Northern population would die off, because they did rely mostly on trade up there... The south was mostly self-sufficient, so they were OK there, and the South would stay together, if only for ease of Slave trading among each-other.
As was mentioned, technological growth would be stunted; not immediately apparent in the time frames you want, but it will hurt later.
I think I'll ask my teacher for some more information tomorrow.
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America doesnt technically win the war. The government tells the populace that, but when it becomes common knowledge that any ship leaving sight of land never returns the people kind of figure out something is up all by themselves. The Indians have more knowledge about the supernatural than the colonists and are running for their lives for the most part, or trying to figure out how to stop whats begun. Serious thought is being given to actual alliances with the colonists as a last resort.
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As a general thing, small economies with their own source of food production should be defenseless, but stable economically, while port towns would probably become quickly abandoned. What's the deal with the western portion of the country? I assume the French/Spanish high-tailed it out? That leaves a lot of wild-west/lovecraft possibilities.
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As a general thing, small economies with their own source of food production should be defenseless, but stable economically, while port towns would probably become quickly abandoned. What's the deal with the western portion of the country? I assume the French/Spanish high-tailed it out? That leaves a lot of wild-west/lovecraft possibilities.
Assuming port towns engage in significant fishing, they'd probably diminish, but not vanish entirely.
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As a general thing, small economies with their own source of food production should be defenseless, but stable economically, while port towns would probably become quickly abandoned. What's the deal with the western portion of the country? I assume the French/Spanish high-tailed it out? That leaves a lot of wild-west/lovecraft possibilities.
Havent decided yet.
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1885ish the US still didn't have the Constitution and the president was appointed by the continental congress.
There was basically still just the 13 colonies with a weak government. West of the colonies was all British territories, so those just got cut off and will be looking for leadership, until the Mississippi then it is Spanish and wilderness beyond that (the French didn't own it yet).
I could easily see there being several city states and state sized countries.
edit: Since the Earth is flat logic applies for now I would assume any port cities would be fishing communities and perhaps trading with other port cities along the Atlantic and Gulf coasts. No one would dare sail out of sight from land if they never see anyone come back from that.
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Im trying to figure out whats a good time frame for being about middle of the way between "yay, the war is over" and "wait...something is wrong here"
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decide how you want the US then. You could wait until after the war of 1812 or the Civil War depending on exactly what you want.
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Sometime between 1782 and 1786.
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So we are operating under the Articles of Confederation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Articles_of_Confederation) and not the Constitution as we know it.
One of these guys is president:
John Hanson (November 5, 1781– November 3, 1782)
Elias Boudinot (November 4, 1782– November 2, 1783)
Thomas Mifflin (November 3, 1783– October 31, 1784)
Richard Henry Lee (November 30, 1784– November 6, 1785)
John Hancock (November 23, 1785– May 29, 1786)
Nathaniel Gorham (June 6, 1786– November 5, 1786)
I kinda like the idea of it being Hancock since he is the only one most people would already know.
A little bit of period history and maps (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonial_history_of_the_United_States)
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Hancock it is. Now I just need a city. Objections to Boston?
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I have some information from mine professor!
He says that, theoretically, the American economy might actually be vitalized by the inability to sail out of the sight of land, because if you look at the time after the War of 1812, the economy really took off because the American people were pretty much completely cut off, and had to cope.
Also, there were some pretty strong pressures to cleave together (there were bitter arguments about it IRL, but stuff like "We can't trade with anyone but YOU guys" would be a natural bonding point). Because remember, the colonies had a really strong shared heritage, and if you run this soon enough after the war, the propaganda would be very good at getting everyone to feel a general comraderie, as it were.
Also, you have to remember that people who wanted a stronger central government would use ship disappearances, once they become widely known enough, as an argument that a stronger government would help prevent this. Not that it would, but...
And I have no objection to Boston, which could be alternately known as the City of Riots. Rioting seriously was one of their favorite pastimes. Alternatively, Charleston or New York could work, if you want to have towns that would be slightly richer; plus, it might be fun to travel up and down the river highways down South...
Of course, down in the South you have to deal with a culture built up from indentured servitude and violence, which could be fun.
Hmm... I'm picturing it now... The South would follow the Indians, gobbling up land as they went, while the North might try to get friendly with a newly free Canada, just for the resources up there...
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Hmm...perhaps we can go with whichever city we can find maps for.
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WHile were at it: Preferred rules set people would wanna use:
Cthulhu d20 modified
d20 Modern
Other
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Never used cthulhu d20, though if I can acquire a book I'd be fine. Love d20, and have a lot of material for it, lol. I gotta say, some variant on the d20 past sounds like the best idea, so I'll put my vote in for d20 "modern" while making heavy use of the d20 past supplement.
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Never played Cthulhu d20. d20 modern is pretty bad ass and has an SRD for us to use. Other I think depends on how you want to tone it. Been wanting to really play GURPS but it could be a real bitch to deal with.
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Hmm...perhaps a refluffed version of the Dresden Files RPG? It has a built-in mental damage system, so you wouldn't have to tack one on like you would if you used d20 Modern.
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Any would be fine really.
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Hmm...perhaps a refluffed version of the Dresden Files RPG? It has a built-in mental damage system, so you wouldn't have to tack one on like you would if you used d20 Modern.
Ive never seen Dresden FIles. What system is it?
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Never used cthulhu d20, though if I can acquire a book I'd be fine. Love d20, and have a lot of material for it, lol. I gotta say, some variant on the d20 past sounds like the best idea, so I'll put my vote in for d20 "modern" while making heavy use of the d20 past supplement.
Cthulhu d20 is a bit different. Basically you choose either Fighter BAB and 1 good save, or Cleric BAB and 2 Good saves. Then you choose an occupation an select 10 skills related to it. These are your class skills. And of course it has the CoC SAN rules. Also, anyone can cast spells if they can make the check to learn them, and spells have no assigned level. You can cast any spell you can read. Of course all of hem also do large amounts of temporary ability damage...
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Dresden Files uses the Fate system.
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Im completely unfamiliar with the system. Anyone else play Fate?
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No, but I'm willing to learn.
I've heard tell the magic system is more balanced than 3.5s (not too hard); can someone verify?
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I'm getting some infos ready. Hadn't looked into it proper yet to make decisions.
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From what I've seen (which is admittedly skimming), the book seems pretty balanced. I'd be fine with using a d20 system, though.
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As long as there is some kind of resource like a SRD or a lite version of the rules for the players any system is good with me.
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Well we'll have to have one where the bulk of AC (or whatever defense mechanics used) doesnt come from armor, cause im assuming other than the occasional heirloom the colonists wont have any.
Also: weapons list
I know they would have knives, axes, rifles, and muskets. Anything else I should be aware of?
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They would have had early rifles as well. The main variants being the Pennsylvania rifle, Kentucky rifle, and Tennessee or hog rifle
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I'm proud to tell you my Kitty Avatar's great^x grann-pappy fought in the Whiskey Rebellion.
As in I can't fix my kitty litter, without a strong dose (really) !!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whiskey_Rebellion
You gotta fight for your right to party Farm Drunk !
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By-the-way ... they had Everyone Is John (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9286.0) back then.
They called it "The Vapors".
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You guys have any thoughts on this if we do d20? http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=159615
I'm told there was a scarcity of gunpowder 1775-1778 which we subsidized by importing from France. I'm also told the US economy relied on Exports at the time.
We should also have some cutlasses/sabers and one shot pistols.
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I like d20 Modern, the Past book should have what we need. That or some derivation of the SW:Saga system, but that would require a lot of work.
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There's a d20 supplement for Westerns, Sidewinder. Somewhat anachronistic, but hey.
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Headless Horseman ... is from that era.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headless_Horseman
Amish and Mennonites still have Hexs on their barns.
Things were spookier 235+ years ago.
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How many countries had immigrants here at that time anyway?
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I'm pretty sure that it was really just England, France and Spain at the time, and the Germans and Irish came later...
Also, there were some Russians over in the extreme North-West, iirc.
Of course, I could be wrong, so you probably want to check this.
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didnt britain have some hessian mercs?
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Forgot about them; most of them deserted, so you would have some areas where German was quite common...
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By 1800, Pennsylvania was about 25% German something.
And the concern of the time was that "They" would take over.
Hessians and Prussians and Silesians ... Oh My.
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Okay I'm leaning towards d20 Modern with some possible modifications. Maybe add some occupations. I'll need to come up with some mental health rules a little better than cthulhu d20, and then there's magic...
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I'm guessing there'd be very few in-combat spells--they're mostly reserved for out-of-combat sanity draining rituals.
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Can I request magic be more subtle, in the style of spells like Synchronicity (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/MSRD:Magic#Synchronicity)?
Because that spell, at least, could be reflavored to favor the whole "I'm fucking up reality for personal convenience" angle.
Does anyone know of any rules for the d20 system for magic directly screwing reality? Because I don't think magic should be at all safe, because of it's presumed source.
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How unsafe are we talking here? Sanity-draining unsafe, go-see-a-doctor unsafe, and-then-John-was-a-zombie unsafe?
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Alerts every monster in a 1 mile radius to a vague idea of your location unsafe?
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And-then-John-was-a-zombie unsafe. Or even using-the-Net-Libram-of-Random-Magical-Effects unsafe for higher levels of magic.
Because nothing says "I hate you" better than magical failure forcing you to roll on a 1d10000 table, which includes some really weird stuff.
Not to say we should use it, just that the consequences should be that dire.
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well you guys will be starting at level one we you have time to figure out spells.
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http://www.preservationvirginia.org/exhibit/armor.html?process=0 apparently colonists had some armor
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Okay if we do the d20 modern thing hows this for mental stress rules:
Any time you fail a Willpower Save against a Fear effect you gain 1 point of 'stress' for lack of a better word. When your stress equals your Wisdom score, you temporarily acquire some form of insanity.
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Will there be more potent threats that cause more than one point of stress?
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Yes but you won't see much of that immediately (not in combat anyway). You'll be a little low level for that. Stress points will go up based on how powerful the critter is. For example is you see one of the Old Ones in the distance that's gonna be upsetting even if it doesn't know you are there. We'd just have to work up a stress scale.
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Shall I move this to the PbP section now?
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Shall I move this to the PbP section now?
I'd say probably. I won't be able to commit to being available until near the end of Feb right now though. If characters won't be done until then or if you're ok with me being inconsistent then I'll be fine, if not I'll just sit it out.
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Go for it. I've got my foot in the door already. :p
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As do I.
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Shall I move this to the PbP section now?
I'd say probably. I won't be able to commit to being available until near the end of Feb right now though. If characters won't be done until then or if you're ok with me being inconsistent then I'll be fine, if not I'll just sit it out.
We'll need to work a few things out so you has time.
Reserve your spot here: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10892.0
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I just had lengthy reply typed up detailing the historical and geographical context. This post will have to suffice as a tag for when I get home to my desktop.
EDIT: First of all, I'd like to apologize for reanimating this thread but since I did I may as well add some content. I also like the Deadlands system. It has a horror and sanity mechanic built in as well as rules for divine, arcane and spiritual magic.
Here are a few things I've thought of that may need to be taken into account. This is taken off the top of my head mostly so be sure to double check anything you find suspect.
-Slavery: The post revolution and pre-cotton gin slave based economy was not particularly fruitful. While it was certainly sustainable, importation of African slaves had slowed to a trickle. With the cutting off of exportation of crops it's reasonable to assume that slavery would become unfeasible based on economic grounds although this wouldn't immediately end the institution. Furthermore, fighting in the revolution had resulted in many slaves being granted freedom. Many went north while some remained in the south and farmed or practiced a trade. A few even came to be slave owners themselves.
-Debt: The US was under a crippling debt following the revolution. The federal government owed France a great deal of money while the states owed an even greater sum to private citizens and businesses. This created a lack of trust in the government as well as a movement from within the government to default on the debt to prevent speculators from profiting. This could be used as a plot device to reflect how little the populace expects from the government. "You expect them to protect us from that thing? They only gave me a promissory note for my horses a few years ago and haven't actually paid yet."
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Thanks man, sorry I missed your post I've been distracted.
Oh and for anyone reading we still only have 4 players so 1 or 2 more are okay.
Since we'd be cut off from France though, that debt is null until it can be re-established. I wonder how that would be handled in rl?
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Sorry I haven't checked on this lately. I'd just like to clarify, that while the federal government owed money to the government of France the individual state governments owed a greater sum to American citizens and businesses. I could see how that could be misconstrued.
Thanks for the offer. I'll check out that thread.
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Hamilton banked on that debt, unless we aren't that late yet...
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Hamilton banked on that debt, unless we aren't that late yet...
officially we are starting in september of 1776
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Okay for those Revolutionary War buffs amongst us I set a date for the beginning of this with a very basic sketch of what's happening. Without going into detail I'd like some thoughts from people on what I'll need to decide since this is the diverging point in history:
The September 11th meeting on Staten Island by Franklin and others begins the secret phenomenon that will be the end of the war.
On September 21st what will be the first of many tragic fires erupts in New York, and many ships (British or otherwise) are destroyed or disappear around this time. On the 22nd appearing pale and possibly terrified, General Washington and Benjamin Franklin begin informing the public the war is over, though they refuse to go into specifics other than the cost was great. Ships begin to disappear if they go out of sight of land and there are rumblings of discontent. The remaining British, uncertain of what to do after being cut off from their homeland, hole up and begin to plot and ponder. The local Natives begin to go into hiding.
The campaign starts the morning of the 23rd.
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I'd like to run a Lovecraftian campaign set in America after the Revolutionary War, and I'd like a few history bufss to weigh n on some questions:
The US will be cut off from the outside world. How will this effect the economy, particularly now that there will be no more slaves or imports?
Would the US be likely to remain a united group or would the states fragment?
How long after the war should I wait before it starts?
The idea is that it was the world as it really was, but several people on either side managed to accidentally open Gates that randomly lead to other realities, and now the areas around them are swarming with monstrosities from dozens of worlds.
Even though you asked for histiry buffs, if you happen to have necronomical help let me know. I'm a big hpfan and own a copy of the necronomiconand have readthrough it 3 times.