(http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd54/Prime32_temp/Other/lizoctataur.png)[/spoiler]
Now I want to see this go over 9000.Then find a way to add another 10 natural weapons. Any number will do, but 10 is the target for 9000.
Is there anything that a kobold cannot acomplish through optimisation ? :lolNo. Pun-Pun can do anything possible inside D&D as an Extraordinary ability.
The obah-blessed template from Dungeon magazine adds four extra arms...
Does the tentacle from the voidmind template stack with the half-farspawn ones? What about the half-illithid template (four tentacles per head)?
Get a power stone of fusion and use it with Use Psionic Device on a warblade 10/eternal blade 10, and use time stands still/island in time to make four full attacks in one round :D (you only get to use A Thousand Cuts on one)
Oh, and why are there no totemist levels in there? Girallon arms adds another two arms, for a two-level dip.
Where is half-illithid printed again?Fiend Folio
Hrmm... We'd lose bite, so we'd have to apply it before half-dragon so that we gain it back...Besides Incarnate Construct?
Anyone know a template that makes your type humanoid?
Besides Incarnate Construct?
Hrmmm... Does anyone know of any ways to make an acquired template inherited, or to apply an inherited template later in life?I can't get back to Humanoid, but Gelatinous can affect outsiders, and Half-Fey can affect oozes. Does Fey help? Probably not; Half-Troll for Giant is probably better.
Yea... Fey doesn't really help, but we can get back to Humanoid with acquired templates, so we just need a way to make acquired inherited or to add inherited templates after an acquired.What inherited templates are we talking about here? How much of a twist are we going to have to put on it?
Really? Explain the obah-blessed girallon in the adventure then. :ehThe obah-blessed template from Dungeon magazine adds four extra arms...
And can't be used on anything that already has multiple limbs.
Where is half-illithid printed again?Fiend Folio, I think (maybe Underdark), though Lords of Madness probably has it too.
Really? Explain the obah-blessed girallon in the adventure then. :eh
Now I want to see this go over 9000.Then find a way to add another 10 natural weapons. Any number will do, but 10 is the target for 9000.
Now I want to see this go over 9000.Then find a way to add another 10 natural weapons. Any number will do, but 10 is the target for 9000.
...hmm. Optimal use of grafts?
Wait a second...you're using Crescent -Knives- but not Master Thrower? Palm Throw is an attack doubler for tiny weapons like daggers and shuriken (and knives ;) ).
Bloodstorm Blade? ^.^
Crescent Knives are Dragon 275 and melee only weapons...
Obah Blessed is from Dungeon 136 and is an inherited template appliable to creatures with "No more than four arms"
Any way we can tweak to get 19 bab? Maybe chain another cohort (cleric/ordained champion) to hit with divine power?
*facepalm*Any way we can tweak to get 19 bab? Maybe chain another cohort (cleric/ordained champion) to hit with divine power?
We have 19 BAB, and hitting 20 won't give any additional attacks.
We should be able to use rapidshot now to squeeze in another attack, right?
First of all: What have you DONE?!?!
Second of all: Pun pun is gonna need a lot of gatorade. Doing THAT many attacks is just exhausting.
Can we lose more BAB on the lizoctotaur version? 'Cause Totemist 2 and Dragontouched are looking good to me. Two more claws and another tail are fairly helpful (Girallon Arms to Totem, Dragon Tail (Dragon Magic) not bound).
Updated the main post.
We're up to 19,461 attacks now.
Updated the main post.
We're up to 19,461 attacks now.
How many attacks ?
Over 9000 !!!
Do we have evard's menacing tentacles (PH2, wiz 3 personal) active? Spell storing ring. Adds two more tentacles.
Never forget the free feats from the Pact Insidious and Pact Certain of Fiendish Codex (2 I think). Those can come in handy if you don't mind damning your immortal soul to Baator (seriously, just kill the devil lords and you don't have to worry about it...).
Ah. My bad. The pacts are in FC2.Do we have evard's menacing tentacles (PH2, wiz 3 personal) active? Spell storing ring. Adds two more tentacles.
This grants attacks as free actions, not as part of our attack routine.
Just get some +1 Aptitude Keen Light Maces.
Problem is, the number of attacks you get from this isn't a set number
Aha. Then feel free to ignore me. I just started using ToB, not well versed. :D
Updated again.
Topped 20k now.
If anyone wants to draw this thing up, I'll link the best rendition in the OP. :D
Multi-Headed(12)
Up to seven heads may be added to a base creature.
12-headed, 56 tentacled, flying...purple people eater?
Noob, if you can talk your Calc teacher into being a CO fan, that's more *pwr* to ya ... :clapI actually didn't mention D&D. Just that it was a mental challenge I was working on. I presented it like a java program along with my logic all written down. The teacher's response?
I wanted to, but my head keeps spinning! There's too much going on!
Maybe if someone described it to me as a DND monster encounter or something...*hint hint*
Thats what they do when they dont know. My Algebra 2 teacher did that all too often with me...Noob, if you can talk your Calc teacher into being a CO fan, that's more *pwr* to ya ... :clapI actually didn't mention D&D. Just that it was a mental challenge I was working on. I presented it like a java program along with my logic all written down. The teacher's response?
"That seems like the right approach, but I'm not sure how to get a better approximation. Let me take it home to think about over the weekend."
The teach never got back to me.
The woman understood *my* stuff. She just didn't know how to get further. I also bounced my math/logic off my brother. He initially said, "Wrong," but later after a full explanation of the logic said, "Damn. You're right, but I can't refine any further," as well.Thats what they do when they dont know. My Algebra 2 teacher did that all too often with me...Noob, if you can talk your Calc teacher into being a CO fan, that's more *pwr* to ya ... :clapI actually didn't mention D&D. Just that it was a mental challenge I was working on. I presented it like a java program along with my logic all written down. The teacher's response?
"That seems like the right approach, but I'm not sure how to get a better approximation. Let me take it home to think about over the weekend."
The teach never got back to me.
12-headed, 56 tentacled, flying...purple people eater?
Wait a minute! I'm drawing you?! :P
Where are you seeing that quote? I'm looking at Savage Species, and on page 125, it lists the maximum number of additional heads for a huge sized creature at 11 (12 total).
Ta-da! :D
(http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd54/Prime32_temp/Other/lizoctataur.png)
We still need to stay a true dragon for PMWF though, don't we?We can DCFS an Elder Evil feat into it at level 17, we qualify for the epic feat via dragonwrought kobold. Then we can PAO into the Mindflayer for the last 3 levels. as Illithid Savant
Multiple limbs. The limbs strike at the same time, not in sequence.
Ever fought with a pair of daggers?Multiple limbs. The limbs strike at the same time, not in sequence.
I was unaware of that. I thought it worked MWF worked the same way TWF in that regard, mainhand at highest BAB, offhand at highest BAB, 2nd offhand at highest BAB, etc.
Ever fought with a pair of daggers?
Ta-da! :D
(http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd54/Prime32_temp/Other/lizoctataur.png)
Well, does that mean the picture needs updating ?
Btw... 2,650,244 is our next goal to beat.
That's how many individual throw attacks Chuck can make over a full round with his action cascade.
I think the lesson that we can take away from this is that tentacles solve everything, and if you have a problem, then you just need more tentacles.
I think the lesson that we can take away from this is that tentacles solve everything, and if you have a problem, then you just need more tentacles.
Prehensile tails work in much the same manner as tentacles. :evillaugh
I think the lesson that we can take away from this is that tentacles solve everything, and if you have a problem, then you just need more tentacles.
Prehensile tails work in much the same manner as tentacles. :evillaugh
Only with Improved Grab.
Why does all this talk about tentacles seem wrong somehow? :P
Also, Sunic, you do realize foxes don't have prehensile tails, right? ;)
1152140 ft speed for Chuck and he can move double that as part of a single Tornado throw. 2304280 ft, and one throw for every 10', so 230,428 throws in a single full-round action(he gets a fair amount of these).
Since you were looking at a single full attack/full-round action, that's the next number to beat. And you're just over a third of the way there. Not too shaby.
1152140 ft speed for Chuck and he can move double that as part of a single Tornado throw. 2304280 ft, and one throw for every 10', so 230,428 throws in a single full-round action(he gets a fair amount of these).
Since you were looking at a single full attack/full-round action, that's the next number to beat. And you're just over a third of the way there. Not too shaby.
The next, yes, but my ultimate goal is to beat his total turn attacks with this beastie's single full round action attacks.
And all as granted too, none of this relying on targets to be there to be hit.
It feels strange to be the progenitor of someone else's ultimate obstacle.
Well there's the Pirate Grafts (Dragon Mag 318)... Specifically the Leg of Squid graft (page 54) which grants you 10 tentacles... I mean it halves your base speed, but who really cares about that? :smirkWhat happens if we graft Leg of Squid onto each of the squid legs we have from the lizoctotaur? That's 72 extra tentacles.
So yeah, pop on 10 more tentacles and see how those gloves of man enjoy more offhand attacks.
TWF is analagous to MWF. Just feel how TWF actually works and you'll understand. I wield twin daggers as my specialty, so whatever.Ever fought with a pair of daggers?
Not daggers specifically, but that's different than how the rules handle it anyway.
So is this Cthulu's true form?
It's a pegleg, so we should be able to replace every leg.It specifically grants 10 tentacles and gloves of man specifies that you just have to have tentacles for the ability to work. It says nothing about tentacles that can make attacks, so it works :P
Problem is it doesn't grant any attacks, so I'm not sure how that works out with the gloves.
Well, it could be like having an extra arm that's too weak to hold anything...It's a pegleg, so we should be able to replace every leg.It specifically grants 10 tentacles and gloves of man specifies that you just have to have tentacles for the ability to work. It says nothing about tentacles that can make attacks, so it works :P
Problem is it doesn't grant any attacks, so I'm not sure how that works out with the gloves.
Well, it could be like having an extra arm that's too weak to hold anything...Even if that were the case, the Gloves of Man overturn that with their "The wearer can use her full strength and dexterity" rule. :D
Even if that were the case, the Gloves of Man overturn that with their "The wearer can use her full strength and dexterity" rule. :D
And this means we do have to update the picture... All those leg tentacles sprouting into 10 more... And the arm with a snake head on it... WHICH IS A HEAD! AND ALL OUR HEADS GET WHAT ANY HEAD GETS.
How did I miss that. That snake arm has 4 tentacles and a gore... SOOO updated.
This is how I an encounter with this thing would go:
DM: You see a mass a Lizoctataur.
PCs: A what?
DM: Nevermind, you're dead. Very dead.
Wait, how does a graft get tentacles and horns? ???
Am I allowed to help someone beat myself? What are the rules on that?
How did I miss that. That snake arm has 4 tentacles and a gore... SOOO updated.
Snake arm, tentacles, and gore in one sentence spells tentacle rape... :hide
Now you just need someone to play the Japanese schoolgirl... :eh
You mean there's an evolution now?
Well, at least it doesn't look as horrible as that evolution of Rhydon they pulled out of their ass :P
So I stop seeing this thread for a week and you now have seven times the number of attacks you used to have? It even seems someone here (aftercrescent?) nailed down the idea I had about Red Wizards. Now we need a way for this guy to cast Time duplicate to double the number of attacks for a single round again...I had a couple ideas, although I other than the staff of Divine Power, I didn't touch the Red Wizard cohort (at least not that I recall ;)). Where's Time duplicate from? If there's another way to double the number of attacks, we can find a way to fit it in :D
Merorem*shudder*
...Flying Spaghetti Monster, anyone? :couch Give it flight.It already does. It goes through Half-Dragon while Large. This gives it wings.
Where are we getting our Tauric template from? Please tell me it's been updated outside Savage Species.
If it has, then I have a few tricks up my sleeve.
Large Monstrous Centipede
I was actually trying to use Ettin and Giant Squid for 24 tentacles and a mouthpick, but there was this annoying size restriction. Then I saw the type line...Well a base doubling actually turns into a quadrupling for off-hand attacks, so one more base doubling might actually do it... 216 main hand attacks... yeah you can see where this is going ;)
Also, Chuck's full round is over 2 million, so we need a doubling and another 50,000 or so attacks, or about 57 offhand progressions. So another six legs.
New optimisation challenge: How many legs can we have on one creature?
Well a base doubling actually turns into a quadrupling for off-hand attacks, so one more base doubling might actually do it... 216 main hand attacks... yeah you can see where this is going ;)Still,
On a more serious note, how many more class abilities can we steal with Illithid Savant? There are a couple of abilities that would give you an extra attack on a full attack, which converts to about eight thousand to the total per attack. It's not the doubling we're after, but it helps.None right now. If we squeeze 4 more levels on, we can grab another ability and a third after all 10 IS levels.... Unless the feature doubles the number of attacks, I don't think it's worth it though, as we'd be giving something up (possibly shou disciple which hurts for only +8K)
On a more serious note, how many more class abilities can we steal with Illithid Savant?
But, the Ring of Spell Storing is at minimum level to cast the spell, how do we get it up to 9th level for the 4 tentacles?:D
One question though: How much damage does this thing put out per attack? Because DR 15 would probably make you completely immune to it.DR 15/what?
We have a UMD check of +19
We have a cohort making us custom staves.
Why do we worry about CL 9 and Rings of Spell Storing?
@Heliomance: Pretty much. Palm Throw removes the Str bonus, so it's basically 1d4 damage.
When in doubt, add more tentacles :P*Looks up Japanese word for "tentacle"*
Mmh, anyone have a name/nickname for this thing yet except for the obvious "Ctulhumon, Bane of Japanese Schoolgirls" or something similar? :P
A side note: The original post can't seem to decide if you're using a marilith, a lizoctataur, or a lizzipede.That's because it has used all three, depending on the incarnation. I'm sure Ejo is just giving recognition to how it came to be. Marilith was first, then we hit the lizoctataur. And this morning we upgraded to lizzipede.
Well Chuck has just over 1000 full-round actions, and you're above him by a factor of 4 (good job!), so you still need 250 times more. That's 8 Doublings.
You've secured the attack number for a single action, so you've earned a place in the record thread. Now to make the number as high as possible...
More templates! One we can apply directly to our Lizardfolk.
Insectile Creature adds four arms that cannot be used for attacks. However, we can graft Aboleth Tentacles both above and onto these limbs. Eight more offhand progressions is about six and a half thousand more attacks.
If we can type-fix to Magical Beast at any point, Arachnoid Creature (FR: Underdark) adds six legs, which converst to sixty tentacles. We could use the Manual of the Planes version of Shadow Creature.
Well Chuck has just over 1000 full-round actions, and you're above him by a factor of 4 (good job!), so you still need 250 times more. That's 8 Doublings.
You've secured the attack number for a single action, so you've earned a place in the record thread. Now to make the number as high as possible...
He's at 200 million? Thought he was at 2 million.
And 4 base doublings would cover it, since each base doubling is a x4 to the off-hands.
EDIT: And swap out some levels, we need to steal Sweeping Strike!
Can we try Aptitude Crescent Knives and Boomerang Ricochet?
Are Crescent Knives Slashing Weapons?
If so, make one of the Illithid Savant feats Slashing Flurry from PHB 2 for an additional attack in the full-attack routine.
Moment of Clarity of a 12th level Void Disciple could be useful. Bonus points if she's in a japanese school girl outfit.
Eat a Warblade/Swordsage for Raging Mongoose, or eat someone with the Martial Study feat for it...hmm. better to steal the class feature so you get the required IL.
Have you eaten a Dervish yet?
And it was a thousand kinds of goodness... (really sad when a thousand is now an almost negligible number :P)Have you eaten a Dervish yet?
Yes.
You know nothing...Merorem*shudder*
Time travel. That says the headache. Time travel makes everything painful.You know nothing...Merorem*shudder*
...Flying Spaghetti Monster, anyone? :couch Give it flight.It already does. It goes through Half-Dragon while Large. This gives it wings.
But time travel also makes everything sexier.
But time travel also makes everything sexier.
I prefer the DeLorean method to the Toaster myself.
But time travel also makes everything sexier.
I prefer the DeLorean method to the Toaster myself.
All great time travelers use a phone booth to travel.
All great time travelers use a phone booth to travel.
I loved those 2 movies :D
All great time travelers use a phone booth to travel.
I loved those 2 movies :D
Police Call Box is just a variant on a phone booth, as well.
Who stays in their right mind? The left brain makes so much more sense. ;)
All great time travelers use a phone booth to travel.
I loved those 2 movies :D
Police Call Box is just a variant on a phone booth, as well.
Who in his right mind would time travel in a phone booth? ;)
*raises left hand*Who stays in their right mind? The left brain makes so much more sense. ;)
All great time travelers use a phone booth to travel.
I loved those 2 movies :D
Police Call Box is just a variant on a phone booth, as well.
Who in his right mind would time travel in a phone booth? ;)
*raises left hand*Who stays in their right mind? The left brain makes so much more sense. ;)
All great time travelers use a phone booth to travel.
I loved those 2 movies :D
Police Call Box is just a variant on a phone booth, as well.
Who in his right mind would time travel in a phone booth? ;)
RTFM!!1! :pout ;)Who stays in their right mind? The left brain makes so much more sense. ;)*raises left hand*
Tehnically speaking, the left part of your brain coordinates your right side of the body and vice versa...
Who stays in their right mind? The left brain makes so much more sense. ;)
All great time travelers use a phone booth to travel.
I loved those 2 movies :D
Police Call Box is just a variant on a phone booth, as well.
Who in his right mind would time travel in a phone booth? ;)
Ha. No one saw the alternate way to read that sentence:
Who in his right mind would time travel in a phone booth?
The answer is: Yes. :)
Where are we now? Looking for another way to double attacks, right?Would really help. On the other foot, adding a few more legs would get us over the 1 million mark. I still think Shadow (PlanHB) Arachnoid (Underdark) has potential, and adds six legs. But the more, the tentaclier. :cc
Where are we now? Looking for another way to double attacks, right?Would really help. On the other foot, adding a few more legs would get us over the 1 million mark. I still think Shadow (PlanHB) Arachnoid (Underdark) has potential, and adds six legs. But the more, the tentaclier. :cc
Shadow is actually from Manual of the Planes. According to Crystal Keep it makes any corporeal creature into a magical beast?I just looked at the book. It says it can be applied to any corporeal creature, and produces a type of Magical Beast, and the 3.5 Update Booklet doesn't change this.
Can you give the crescent knives the splitting enchantment?
A) Shadow creature was updated in Lords of Madness. It makes animals or vermin into magical beasts.
Option B. :D
PTWF interacts very oddly by its wording. Since it allows your offhand to take as many attacks as your mainhand. Your mainhand takes X and crescent knives doubles the number of attacks to 2*X. Now since your mainhand takes 2*X attacks, your offhand each takes 2*X attacks. Crescent knives again double this so each offhand gets 4*X attacks.
Well, maneuvers and action advantage are beside the point (though I really don't see the problem with Dancing Mongoose as a buff), and you won't allow Aptitude abuse (There are about three weapons with "melee rapid shot" type abilities available as feats), so there aren't many avenues open to us.
And Form of Doom?
EDIT: Any chance of eating a Changeling (and a) Warshaper to grow a crapton of extra natural attacks?
That's pretty cool. I might make a scaled-down version of this as a villain next time.
Well PTWF is not that bad. It's just all the other stuff building off of it that messes it up.
Each of the crescent shaped blades is also on fire.
Each of the crescent shaped blades is also on fire.
Somehow, this line just makes me burst out laughing.
Why are there claws on everything? Why?
That thing is so frakking convoluted. It's going to take me a LONG while before I start to even attempt to draw it.Did you miss the earlier version? :D
It's so freaking ridiculous though!
Can you give a run-through of all resources used and which books to find them in?
Also, the current calculations appear to be missing Girallon's Blessing and Arms of Plenty, from SC and LoM respectively, for another four arms. This might let us take out the Aptitude cheese.
Aberrant Limbs - DMG IIMost of it's just effective use of the SurrealDex. The Comprehensive Lists, the Master Template List and the DragonDex can get you the source of everything but the items not in Dragon magazines. Seeing as I suggested grafts in the first place, I can remember where most of the equipment is from.
Pseudonatural - We used the Epic Pseudonatural template from Epic Level Handbook
Gloves of Man - I *think* it's Savage Species - correctAlso, the current calculations appear to be missing Girallon's Blessing and Arms of Plenty, from SC and LoM respectively, for another four arms. This might let us take out the Aptitude cheese.
I'll double check it. It's right. It's done weird, but both Girallon's Blessings (spell and totem) and Arms of Plenty are taken into account for the first number (49) of unarmed attacks.
Also, great run down Callix. :love
On the combat maneuver section of Telekinesis it says: "Alternatively, once per round..." with no action listed(other than the action required to concentrate on the spell as normal).
So performing a combat maneuver-which becomes a full attack with the class feature in question-does not require any additional action other than concentrating, but can still be done only once per round per spell. So it would appear you can make as many full attacks as telekinesis spells you are concentrating on.
Multiple telekinesis spells: function normally when they have different targets, but because of magic stacking rules, if two spells of the same name share the same target, the effects overlap and only the most recent applies.
The kicker: there is no way to tell from the text whether the most recently cast spell or the spell most recently targeting the creature/object has priority; both interpretations are fair.
Discuss.
Discuss.
Would require multiple actions to keep up concentration on multiple spells, or even to make one full attack and then concentrate on the spell. Not to mention that you'd get a max (with this build's extra attacks) of 42 attacks for each aptitude crescent knife you used TK on.
Discuss.
Would require multiple actions to keep up concentration on multiple spells, or even to make one full attack and then concentrate on the spell. Not to mention that you'd get a max (with this build's extra attacks) of 42 attacks for each aptitude crescent knife you used TK on.
Wouldn't the Sonorous Hum(SC 196) spell deal with the concentration bit?
Don't use mind switch. Use mind seed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/mindSeed.htm). It becomes you, mind and soul. You may then use form of doom as is only fitting for such a monstrocity.
Alternatively, manifest mind switch on the monstrosity, then manifest astral seed. Kill yourself immediately. When you come back, you do so as the monstrosity. This is now your original body.
Also, why isn't a multiheaded 12-headed hydra in there? Gate one in and use fusion on it.
Can hydras even take the multiheaded template?
You can always polymorph any object it into a humanoid.
Also, recheck my post. I edited it.
[edit] A 12 headed hydra with the multiheaded template (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20020621a) should have up to 19 heads, altogether. Fun-fun.
Well, racial Hit Dice are considered levels for all purposes, and a barghest can become a greater barghest, and can gain up to 12 Hit Dice in this way. So your mind seed should actually be 4 Hit Dice higher than you were before beginning your orgy of feeding.
Using mind seed and the feed ability (which does work, by the way), would give your "second you" lots more heads
However, I'm sure using fusion + astral seed would be better, since it actually IS you, if reincarnated.
You don't lose manifester levels or class levels. You lose the racial Hit Dice you gained from the Feed ability.
(Added in an additional post because editing it into the last one seems to be a lost cause at this point.)
You might not want to use fusion (though it'd grant you an additional 11 heads)
Likewise, all feats, racial abilities, and class features are pooled (if both creatures have the same ability, the fused being gains it only once).
"Racial abilities" includes ... number of limbs
(ye gods, that abomination of yours is a mess).
If you used the barghest's Feed ability beforehand, you won't even have the level loss.
Since number of limbs, heads... are natural abilities, you gain them.
Natural Abilities
This category includes abilities a creature has because of its physical nature. Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like.
Thus, it's an ability
Since body shape isn't specified as Extraordinary, and is nonmagical, then yes, it is a Natural ability, as noted in my quote from the SRD.
And yes, ability scores are Natural abilities as well, but 'ability score' is far and away not the only kind of ability that exists.
So yes, that's exactly it.
You do realize that Extraordinary abilities and Natural abilities are, y'know, abilities, as specified in their names? And that racial abilities are abilities granted by race? C'mon, man. It doesn't take a huge leap of Einsteinian logic, here.Dude, don't get upset. He's not trying to tick you off. He's being ultra specific. This is TO, and this project in particular is the most literal project I've seen in a while.
If you're going to be purposefully dense just to try and tick me off, I'm not going to try and help you any more.
You gain the other creature's racial abilities. Su, Sp, Ps, Ex, and Natural. I don't see what's confusing about this.Whether or not physical form is in an ability in the rules sense of the word.
You gain the other creature's racial abilities. Su, Sp, Ps, Ex, and Natural. I don't see what's confusing about this.Whether or not physical form is in an ability in the rules sense of the word.
Natural Abilities
This category includes abilities a creature has because of its physical nature. Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like.
Natural Abilities
This category includes abilities a creature has because of its physical nature. Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like.
Everything is one of those kinds of abilities.
There really shouldn't be any discussion about it
because it is pretty clear as to what you get: everything that both creatures get. If both of you have abilities that overlap, you get the better of the two.
Proficiencies obviously aren't Su, Sp or Ps, as they work in an AMF. They aren't marked (Ex) in the monster manuals. And proficiency with a sword is not an ability "a creature has because of its physical nature", as it is learned. So is proficiency somehow nonexistent? Or are there aspects of your character that aren't abilities?You gain the other creature's racial abilities. Su, Sp, Ps, Ex, and Natural. I don't see what's confusing about this.Whether or not physical form is in an ability in the rules sense of the word.
See:: SRDNatural Abilities
This category includes abilities a creature has because of its physical nature. Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like.
Everything is one of those kinds of abilities. Those that aren't Ex, Su, Sp, or Ps are Natural. That means that any and everything that it's possible to put in a stat block is an ability. You basically have two choices for types of abilities gained: through class or race. There really aren't any others. Fusion specifies that you get both.
There really shouldn't be any discussion about it, because it is pretty clear as to what you get: everything that both creatures get. If both of you have abilities that overlap, you get the better of the two.
They're feats (Weapon Proficiency: X), which are Extraordinary, unless they're Su, Sp, or Ps (such as [Psionic] feats).While there are weapon proficiency feats, not all proficiencies are feats. But that's neither here nor there.
They're feats (Weapon Proficiency: X), which are Extraordinary, unless they're Su, Sp, or Ps (such as [Psionic] feats).In that case, Dark Chaos Feat Shuffle is truly obscene. Anyone with "all simple and martial weapons" can get 49 additional feats and retain a melee weapon and a ranged weapon. If we dumped those all into Toughness, that's 267 HP, and that's one of the worst uses of the feats.
They're feats (Weapon Proficiency: X), which are Extraordinary, unless they're Su, Sp, or Ps (such as [Psionic] feats).In that case, Dark Chaos Feat Shuffle is truly obscene. Anyone with "all simple and martial weapons" can get 49 additional feats and retain a melee weapon and a ranged weapon. If we dumped those all into Toughness, that's 267 HP, and that's one of the worst uses of the feats.
Simple Weapon Proficiency grants proficiency in all simple weapons.They're feats (Weapon Proficiency: X), which are Extraordinary, unless they're Su, Sp, or Ps (such as [Psionic] feats).In that case, Dark Chaos Feat Shuffle is truly obscene. Anyone with "all simple and martial weapons" can get 49 additional feats and retain a melee weapon and a ranged weapon. If we dumped those all into Toughness, that's 267 HP, and that's one of the worst uses of the feats.
Wizards don't have Simple Weapon Proficiency, but have proficiency with some simple weapons. As do druids and monks, but they have non-smple proficiencies as well.Simple Weapon Proficiency grants proficiency in all simple weapons.They're feats (Weapon Proficiency: X), which are Extraordinary, unless they're Su, Sp, or Ps (such as [Psionic] feats).In that case, Dark Chaos Feat Shuffle is truly obscene. Anyone with "all simple and martial weapons" can get 49 additional feats and retain a melee weapon and a ranged weapon. If we dumped those all into Toughness, that's 267 HP, and that's one of the worst uses of the feats.
The fact that the DCFS is broken anyway has no relevance to this conversation. :p
Knock-Down [General]
Prerequisites
Base attack bonus +2, Improved Trip, Str 15.
Benefit
Whenever you deal 10 or more points of damage to your opponent in melee, you make a trip attack as a free action against the same target.
Or against multiple creatures.
Swarms. :p
Step 3: You make a free trip attempt (at a +4 bonus, with no possibility of being tripped in return).
Step 4: You succeed at the trip.
Swarms. :p
Are one creature. :lol
Step 3: You make a free trip attempt (at a +4 bonus, with no possibility of being tripped in return).
Step 4: You succeed at the trip.
And that's where it breaks down. You can't trip a prone target, meaning you can't make the attempt, and even if you could, you could not be successful at it.
That's what improved grab is for. You can pick them up and carry them around with you if you succeed on the grapple check. That's kind of what it's for.Right, so you grapple them and then use a standard action to move them? Sounds like the opposite of getting MORE attacks. :P
Now, we just need a source for improved grab that uses the weapons in the build...
Um...no?That's what improved grab is for. You can pick them up and carry them around with you if you succeed on the grapple check. That's kind of what it's for.Right, so you grapple them and then use a standard action to move them? Sounds like the opposite of getting MORE attacks. :P
Now, we just need a source for improved grab that uses the weapons in the build...
You move them into your space as a free action. Nobody said they have to stay on the ground when you do.
Um...no?I know you're trying to help, but please read the grapple rules again.
You move them into your space as a free action. Nobody said they have to stay on the ground when you do.
Improved Grab
If a creature with this special attack hits with a melee weapon (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. No initial touch attack is required.
Unless otherwise noted, improved grab works only against opponents at least one size category smaller than the creature. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a -20 penalty on grapple checks, but is not considered grappled itself; the creature does not lose its Dexterity bonus to AC, still threatens an area, and can use its remaining attacks against other opponents.
A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature’s descriptive text).
When a creature gets a hold after an improved grab attack, it pulls the opponent into its space. This act does not provoke attacks of opportunity. It can even move (possibly carrying away the opponent), provided it can drag the opponent’s weight.
However, that doesn't actually help the build, since all you can do with improved grab is pull them into your space and possibly carry them. Nothing allows you to knock them down, hit them, grab them, pick them up and rinse/repeat...Sounds like bloodstorm blade...
If you pick them up, they're no longer prone
And even without that, once again, nothing says a prone creature can't be tripped, RAW. :)
You really don't think you could drop any given 50000+ critters with over a million attacks? :twitch
Just three words: Bag o Rats.
You'd be able to Cleave all you want.
You really don't think you could drop any given 50000+ critters with over a million attacks?
Just three words: Bag o Rats.
Psionic contingency + Twinned psionic lion's charge would allow you a single attack at the end of your charge, plus two full-attacks before, during, or after the charge.The point was to use one full attack action, or else we would at least be using Time Stands Still. Thanks anyway.
Grabbing the pounce ability would turn the single attack into a pouncing attack at the end of the charge.
Thus, I just tripled your output.
[edit] Of course, then you grab a psicrystal with a skin of proteus, somehow manage to ride it as a mount (7-headed hydra-lization, with grafts, etc?), then share your psionic lion's charges with it. Then you'd add a bunch more attacks on the same action.
[edit edit] But then, you said no multi-pouncing. Does that nullify this? After all, it's still a single charge action, but you get 3 full attacks on it.
One other thing I think we may have done here - with Fuse Arms, have we set a new non-NI strength record?
Just to check, what's the range limit on the thrown knives? I'm trying to calculate the projectile speed. Given that each knife travels the distance from hand to target twice per attack, it looks like it's 160 feet/sec per foot of range for an offhand knife, which means a 20ft range is about 2.8 times the speed of sound.
Hey have we added stormguard warrior to this to break the Hulking Hurler damage record yet?
I think you'll find it's significantly higher (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=8378468&postcount=58). So much so that scientific notation is insufficient to express it in any sort of reasonable form.
Yea, huge props to LoP for the tricks and psly4mne for working them all together without letting it go infinite. There's simply no possible way this gal could top that without simply copying the same routines.And there are only two real ways to boost that number: find a spell that gives more clones/round than Body Outside Body while duplicating gear and retaining some casting ability, or find a bigger single source of damage than a full-power Reciprocal Gyre. Then again, there's not really that much point to boosting damage that should be able to destroy interplanar boundaries.
Chuck is harder, because he only really abuses Nightsticks; Persistent Footsteps of the Deity is too elegant to be called cheese in my opinion. So even if we can match his damage output, we're probably still cheesier.
Chuck is no longer functional, due to Footsteps being errataed to dismissible.
Spells of instantaneous duration cannot be affected by this feat, nor can spells whose effects are discharged.
Page 121 – Footsteps of theSo Chuck is no longer legal. SDK posted about it somewhere when it happened. And there's a Chuck Jr. somewhere too.
Divine [Substitution]
Under Duration, the entry should say
“See text.”
[Revision]
The two final sentences should read,
“You can discharge the spell to add
+10 feet to your speed per remaining
round of the spell’s duration. This
effect lasts until the end of your
turn.”
These unique abilities were created for use by NPCs, not PCs.
<snip>That description sure sounds like a "leader" to me. I'm sure custserve could be enlisted for this, but I doubt that you would consider that valid (unless, of course, they would agree with you).
Cohorts are not leaders.
<snip>
(of the leadership feat): A character with this feat is the sort of individual others want to follow, and he or she has done some work attempting to recuit cohorts and followers.
Also, to note; this blatantly ignores wealth by level, but with a psion and wizard as cohorts, just choose your method of breaking the standard wealth scheme.By this philosophy, "theoretically", a 1st level commoner could do this very same thing (given enough time, of course). If it can be done by a 1st level commoner, then just how impressive can it be?
Just as an inconsequential side note, before I start -- I assume that you mean "cobra strike", as opposed to "passive way", in order to get dodge as a bonus feat (doesn't change anything, just swap-out the terms).
("epic" being defined by the taking of "epic" feats -- if you qualify for "epic" feats as a character, then you are, by definition, and "epic" character)
Additionally, as a matter of fact, by definition, aberrant limbs makes it an NPC:
You may call this "interpretation",
I'm sure custserve could be enlisted for this, but I doubt that you would consider that valid (unless, of course, they would agree with you).
"Theoretical" or not, some things just simply cannot be ignored just because you feel like it.
Circle magic. Where are your other 2 Circle participants coming from?
Next -- feat retraining.
By this philosophy, "theoretically", a 1st level commoner could do this very same thing
Otherwise, cool creature, and nice work on the kobold (actually, the creature is pretty bad-ass).
Ah, now you're playing word games. But if you want to play some mickey-mouse b.s., then at least do it right -- for kobolds, there is no "venerable" age catagory. You might want to double-check p39 of RotD. Also, while there are no physical penalties for aging, nor are there any guidelines for mental boosts based on age -- at least not that I can find (completely different the standard age progressions in PHB). ;)("epic" being defined by the taking of "epic" feats -- if you qualify for "epic" feats as a character, then you are, by definition, and "epic" character)
So a 1st level Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold is an epic character and gains epic attack and save progressions?
You will need to provide more textual support for that position, especially how your attempt at defining epic gets around the clear text of "Epic characters—those whose character level is 21st or higher."
The epic feats are able to be taken specifically because of the notes (in Draconomicon) about Dragons being able to take epic feats at the proper age category. The same notes do not state that the Dragon becomes an epic creature, simply that it may take feats normally reserved for epic creatures.
touché :blushAdditionally, as a matter of fact, by definition, aberrant limbs makes it an NPC:
And they are being applied to an NPC. We just happen to be stealing that NPCs body at a later time.
we'll just have to disagree on this one :notlisteningYou may call this "interpretation",
Because it is.
When reading the text you omitted, that is not the only conclusion supported, namely:
"Cohorts are loyal servants who follow a particular character or sometimes a group of characters (NPC adventurers can have cohorts, too). They are hired by or seek out a PC or PCs, and they work out a deal agreeable to both parties so that the NPC works for the characters. A cohort serves as a general helper, a body-guard, a sidekick, or just someone to watch a character's back. Although technically subservient, cohorts are usually too valuable to waste on performing menial tasks."
Even the omitted sections of the paragraph you pull your quote from do not necessarily push as to the conclusion that a cohort cannot have his own, further subservient cohort:
"Cohorts are people who take on a subservient role. Cohorts are not leaders. They might voice an opinion now and again, but for the most part, they do as they're told."
The long and short of it is this:
The rules never specifically say cohorts cannot take the leadership feat, but they do say that cohorts follow normal rules and do as they're told. There's nothing to stop someone from telling their cohort to go out and find someone willing to be his cohort who fits the bill as needed.
the key word there is definitely "abuse".I'm sure custserve could be enlisted for this, but I doubt that you would consider that valid (unless, of course, they would agree with you).
Whether they or anyone else agrees with me or not is never an issue for me. What is an issue is when others (especially CustServ or the Sage) do not agree with the rules. They do not have the power to change the rules without errata; this is clearly outlined in the rules themselves.
The rules are the rules, and we abuse them to their fullest extent in theoretical exercises. There is little to no room for interpretation, and where there is, we will error on the more gracious side unless evidence can be shown that said interpretation is not supported.
:ahem mistake -- right."Theoretical" or not, some things just simply cannot be ignored just because you feel like it.
Nothing is being ignored. Potentially overlooked as a mistake, but not ignored.
fair enough.Circle magic. Where are your other 2 Circle participants coming from?
From followers. There's plenty enough allowable to the two with leadership, and as they're able to be chosen as well, you simply grab up those able to join the circle.
still requires that you "qualify" for the feat. I still hold that, in those feat slots, that you only qualify for "vile" feats. the logic is not hard to follow.Next -- feat retraining.
Nothing is retrained. Embrace the Dark Chaos and Shun the Dark Chaos are used to first swap out the feat (any feat, as noted by the spell) for one granted by Embrace the Dark Chaos, then that feat is traded for any feat we qualify for (as noted by the spell) with Shun the Dark Chaos. It's far superior in every way to retraining or even Reformation.
no. the arguement that I am posing is this:By this philosophy, "theoretically", a 1st level commoner could do this very same thing
Once he levels up and takes the appropriate feats, I suppose. But missing out on 1 level is really going to hurt what abilities he has access to. The ability to break wealth by level is a result of the options we've taken, not a baseline assumption. Our cohort(s) can easily be ordered to buy some cows and turn them to salt, or to create tons upon tons of black lotus extract to sell, or simply abuse wish for items and wealth. Our higher level followers can even help them do so, speeding up the process. If you'd like, I could do the math for how many of each spellcasting is needed to accumulate the necessary gold, but it's all rather moot as the ability to rake in arbitrarily large sums of cash is well within the limits of the power possessed by the character by the time she needs to equip the monstrosity she will swap minds with.
Ah, now you're playing word games. But if you want to play some mickey-mouse b.s., then at least do it right -- for kobolds, there is no "venerable" age catagory. You might want to double-check p39 of RotD. Also, while there are no physical penalties for aging, nor are there any guidelines for mental boosts based on age -- at least not that I can find (completely different the standard age progressions in PHB). ;)Look at table 3-2 and 3-3. There is a venerable age category, and in dragon age, that corresponds to Wyrm status and above.
oops :embarrassedAh, now you're playing word games. But if you want to play some mickey-mouse b.s., then at least do it right -- for kobolds, there is no "venerable" age catagory. You might want to double-check p39 of RotD. Also, while there are no physical penalties for aging, nor are there any guidelines for mental boosts based on age -- at least not that I can find (completely different the standard age progressions in PHB). ;)Look at table 3-2 and 3-3. There is a venerable age category, and in dragon age, that corresponds to Wyrm status and above.
As for claiming there's no mental boosts, that's retarded. Age categories (Middle, Old, Venerable) are specifically described in the PHB along with their effects. There does not need to be a table in RotD to repeat it.
you missed my point -- there is no "middle" or "venerable" age catagories for dragons. it's apples-to-oranges.Ah, now you're playing word games. But if you want to play some mickey-mouse b.s., then at least do it right -- for kobolds, there is no "venerable" age catagory. You might want to double-check p39 of RotD. Also, while there are no physical penalties for aging, nor are there any guidelines for mental boosts based on age -- at least not that I can find (completely different the standard age progressions in PHB). ;)Look at table 3-2 and 3-3. There is a venerable age category, and in dragon age, that corresponds to Wyrm status and above.
As for claiming there's no mental boosts, that's retarded. Age categories (Middle, Old, Venerable) are specifically described in the PHB along with their effects. There does not need to be a table in RotD to repeat it.
in the phb, there are only 3 advanced age catagories; total of 4 if you count starting age to be "adult". however, for dragons, starting with "adult", there are 7. how do you corrolate 3 with 7? the phb age progression chart is completely irrelavent and invalid for this scenario.
sorry. i read that page several times and still didn't see 3-3. :embarrassedyou missed my point -- there is no "middle" or "venerable" age catagories for dragons. it's apples-to-oranges.Ah, now you're playing word games. But if you want to play some mickey-mouse b.s., then at least do it right -- for kobolds, there is no "venerable" age catagory. You might want to double-check p39 of RotD. Also, while there are no physical penalties for aging, nor are there any guidelines for mental boosts based on age -- at least not that I can find (completely different the standard age progressions in PHB). ;)Look at table 3-2 and 3-3. There is a venerable age category, and in dragon age, that corresponds to Wyrm status and above.
As for claiming there's no mental boosts, that's retarded. Age categories (Middle, Old, Venerable) are specifically described in the PHB along with their effects. There does not need to be a table in RotD to repeat it.
in the phb, there are only 3 advanced age catagories; total of 4 if you count starting age to be "adult". however, for dragons, starting with "adult", there are 7. how do you corrolate 3 with 7? the phb age progression chart is completely irrelavent and invalid for this scenario.
If only there were some sort of tables that correlated them... some sort of table 3-2 and table 3-3 in races of the dragon, which displayed both draconic age categories for kobolds, and also had ages at what point they'd be susceptible to various aging effects.
Wow. That was condsiderably more civil than I was expecting.
Ah, now you're playing word games.
we'll just have to disagree on this one
the key word there is definitely "abuse".
mistake -- right.
still requires that you "qualify" for the feat. I still hold that, in those feat slots, that you only qualify for "vile" feats. the logic is not hard to follow.
if you can't do it with "book value" appropriate gold, then it's bogus.
How's that?
But really, you're the one trying to stretch the ability to take epic feats into the creature doing so as being epic.How is that a stretch?
I'm just calling an egg an egg and not assuming anything about what's inside. ;)um .... yolk?
Okay, I'll play your silly little game.we'll just have to disagree on this one
If you'd like, since you're attempting to make a semantic argument, not a rules based one, I can go the whole "you don't have to be a leader to show leadership" route. I haven't had a good, strung out semantics argument in a while... ;)
No, it is not houserule material. Yes, it is supported by the rules. Embrace/Shun the Dark Chaos specifically states that it must be a feat for which you qualify. Worshiping an Elder Evil gives you bonus feat slots for vile feats -- thus you are qualified for bonus vile feats. These slots do not qualify you to take any other type of feat. Since those slots only qualify for vile feats, then EtDC would fail, because it does not re-define the feat slot.still requires that you "qualify" for the feat. I still hold that, in those feat slots, that you only qualify for "vile" feats. the logic is not hard to follow.
The logic is indeed not hard to follow. It's just not logic that's supported by the relevant rules. It would be an astoundingly sensible houserule though.
What does it matter what you're using the money for? Whether you're 20th-lvl and just buying a handfull of things; or you're a 1st-lvl commoner buying all the magical augmentation that the muliverse has to offer -- you're still buying stuff. At what point do you begin to descriminate on a qualitative basis? Also, there is nothing "RAW" about your breaking-the-bank arguement. As I have seen, even TO tends to keep to standard wealth levels in order to be concidered legit (or at least respectable). Hell, why bother with gold at all? While you're at it, why not just make all those crescent knives "everdancing"?if you can't do it with "book value" appropriate gold, then it's bogus.
I happen to disagree, specifically because breaking wealth by level is so easy for so many characters.
But I'm not just buying a ton of items that give me class abilities or that grant spells or feats or whatever.
I'm buying a very small list of items. I just happen to be buying a lot of some of them. In fact, I'm pretty sure that everyone item I'm only being one or two of (and probably even the grafts) is well within the range of cash offered to me, my cohort, and his cohort. It's just the thousands of gloves of man copies, really, that break wealth by level. I'm sure there's another way to duplicate so many of them. Perhaps my cohort's cohort having an craftificer cohort, with some wish/true creation shenanigans for raw materials? Would you find that more elegant?
How can my arguements be sound, if there is nothing to support them?How's that?
Some sounds arguments so far, but still no rules text to support them. And without the rules on your side, we're just talking about what houserules you would likely implement.
How is that a stretch?
it simply further defines "level" to include racial HD (IMHO, a clarification that shouldn't even have been needed).
clearly talking about "true" dragons
you are CLEARLY way over the 20-level mark for ECL (and, yes, ECL matters).
I'm just calling an egg an egg and not assuming anything about what's inside. ;)um .... yolk?
Let's say you have a cohort named "Joe". In your relationship with Joe, Joe's relation to you is "cohort" -- what, then, is your relation to Joe in that relationship?
Embrace/Shun the Dark Chaos specifically states that it must be a feat for which you qualify.
What does it matter what you're using the money for?
Also, there is nothing "RAW" about your breaking-the-bank arguement.
why not just make all those crescent knives "everdancing"?
there is no rules text that explicitly supports that you can have NI wealth at any given level.
How can my arguments be sound, if there is nothing to support them?
RAITAYCPIWN is not RAW
You're asking me to do the equivalent of categorically proving why/how water is wet.
You cannot use a particular approach or line of argument to allow one thing, and then turn around and use that very same approach or line of argument to disallow something else.
Embrace/Shun the Dark Chaos specifically states that it must be a feat for which you qualify. Worshiping an Elder Evil gives you bonus feat slots for vile feats -- thus you are qualified for bonus vile feats. These slots do not qualify you to take any other type of feat. Since those slots only qualify for vile feats, then EtDC would fail, because it does not re-define the feat slot.This is not how the Dark Chaos line of spells work. Never, anywhere, is a feat slot defined as a "bonus feat slot" or a "1st level feat slot" or a "15th level feat slot". NOWHERE. That's an important word. It's just not in the rules.
Welcome to theoretical optimization. If you can't argue semantics, you can't argue TO. That's half of what TO is - semantics. Especially in a game like D&D.there is a difference between semantics, and simply stripping words of their inherent meaning and disregarding context. Many of the arguments which support this build as a "20-level character" is not of semantics -- you're actually changing/disregarding the meaning of words. I'll not further entertain such a low-brow discussion.
If you were playing in a game, you could do this when you reach level 20.Welcome to theoretical optimization. If you can't argue semantics, you can't argue TO. That's half of what TO is - semantics. Especially in a game like D&D.there is a difference between semantics, and simply stripping words of their inherent meaning and disregarding context. Many of the arguments which support this build as a "20-level character" is not of semantics -- you're actually changing/disregarding the meaning of words. I'll not further entertain such a low-brow discussion.
I'm done.
in part, no.If you were playing in a game, you could do this when you reach level 20.Welcome to theoretical optimization. If you can't argue semantics, you can't argue TO. That's half of what TO is - semantics. Especially in a game like D&D.there is a difference between semantics, and simply stripping words of their inherent meaning and disregarding context. Many of the arguments which support this build as a "20-level character" is not of semantics -- you're actually changing/disregarding the meaning of words. I'll not further entertain such a low-brow discussion.
I'm done.
Well, not in a serious game. :PIf you were playing in a game, you could do this when you reach level 20.Welcome to theoretical optimization. If you can't argue semantics, you can't argue TO. That's half of what TO is - semantics. Especially in a game like D&D.there is a difference between semantics, and simply stripping words of their inherent meaning and disregarding context. Many of the arguments which support this build as a "20-level character" is not of semantics -- you're actually changing/disregarding the meaning of words. I'll not further entertain such a low-brow discussion.
I'm done.
Not CR 20, but that's a different system.
Precision damage applies twice, but it's still one attack roll nonetheless. Perhaps this build's attacks should be halved down to 538,106.
Blessed of Gruumsh
Strictly speaking, you wouldn't have a fixed number of attacks
For #4, Bloodstorm Blade 4 already takes care of that. It lets you throw a weapon and have it return in time to make iterative attacks with it (unlike Returning). Two class level could be probably be saved by only taking BB to 2nd (for melee ranged attacks) and using the Teleporting weapon enhancement on the knives (+1 weapon enhancement, found in the XPH/SRD) that does the same thing as the BB's 4th level class feature.
Two class level could be probably be saved by only taking BB to 2nd (for melee ranged attacks) and using the Teleporting weapon enhancement on the knives (+1 weapon enhancement, found in the XPH/SRD) that does the same thing as the BB's 4th level class feature.Technically, the weapons don't have to be thrown. Does Bloodstorm Blade actually grant any extra attacks? The exploding blades are nice for damage purposes, but if you lost some BB levels, you might be able to squeeze in some Blessed of Gruumsh levels. If it's like the Eye of Gruumsh or Battle Howler of Gruumsh, I believe you'll have to be at least part orc, though.
Technically, the weapons don't have to be thrown. Does Bloodstorm Blade actually grant any extra attacks?
The exploding blades are nice for damage purposes
you might be able to squeeze in some Blessed of Gruumsh levels
Nevermind on the Teleporting thing, then. It seems I've been misreading it for a while. I could have sworn there was soemthing psionic that did an instant return, though. Maybe it was a power? I seem to recall something in Races of the Wild or Races of Destiny, but I'm AFB right now.
Telekinetic Boomerang (Complete Psionic, page 103) is a PL 3 Kineticist/Psychic Warrior that does this. Only problem is that it lasts for a round per level, so if you use it you'll want to find some way to increase the duration. Or make it irrelevant.Nevermind on the Teleporting thing, then. It seems I've been misreading it for a while. I could have sworn there was soemthing psionic that did an instant return, though. Maybe it was a power? I seem to recall something in Races of the Wild or Races of Destiny, but I'm AFB right now.
If you do locate it, please let me know. :D
The goal is to create something with a lot of attacks in a single action, so I'd imagine that sustainability isn't an issue. If you want to make WBL cry, you could enchant each weapon with a continuous/use-activated Telekinetic Boomerang, assuming that psionic weapons work like magic ones.The issue is that with enough distinct weapons to target, by the time you've used Telekinetic Boomerang on them all the duration might have run out for the first few in sequence. Plus, I'd be suspicious of custom continuous or use-activated magic items, even in TO. (No one ever uses the Sword of True Striking!)
Though we could certainly just screw with the action economy. Give the psion cohort a psicrystal, get some UPD ranks, buy some dorjes, and abuse a Synchronicity loop.
The psicrystal cannot naturally use dorjes; it must employ UPD instead. And as it shares its skill ranks with its owner, we can use those.Though we could certainly just screw with the action economy. Give the psion cohort a psicrystal, get some UPD ranks, buy some dorjes, and abuse a Synchronicity loop.
This may be the best way to go about it, though why would the cohort need UPD?
We've missed something. We've missed something very obvious.
Give every single weapon the Speed enchantment from the DMG. It grants one extra attack with that weapon on a full attack action. Now, I'm not sure what this does to the maths, but I think it bumps it by a fair bit.
More to the point, there's a Planar Touchstone you can get that gives you one attack at -5 to your BAB for every attack you would be otherwise making and works any time you could make more than one attack. This seems relevant.
JaronK
Base Ability: Choose a weapon with which you are proficient. If you can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from your attack (i.e., flat-footed) with your chosen weapon, you can make an additional free attack at your base attack bonus –5. You can make this extra attack during any round that you can make multiple attacks, but only with your chosen weapon type. This means that if you are of a high enough level to make additional attacks (you have at least a +6 or higher base attack bonus), you could make two additional attacks at your base attack bonus –5.
Uuuuh I'm pretty sure it only adds one attack.ah -- I think you're right.Base Ability: Choose a weapon with which you are proficient. If you can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from your attack (i.e., flat-footed) with your chosen weapon, you can make an additional free attack at your base attack bonus –5. You can make this extra attack during any round that you can make multiple attacks, but only with your chosen weapon type. This means that if you are of a high enough level to make additional attacks (you have at least a +6 or higher base attack bonus), you could make two additional attacks at your base attack bonus –5.
That is, it's saying "your normal BAB is +11, so you normally get one attack at BAB, one attack at BAB-5, and one attack at BAB-10. Using this ability gets you one attack at BAB, two attacks at BAB-5, and one attack at BAB-10.
Planar Handbook, p.172 (Oxyrhynchus).
it's the base ability, no less.
Uuuuh I'm pretty sure it only adds one attack.Base Ability: Choose a weapon with which you are proficient. If you can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from your attack (i.e., flat-footed) with your chosen weapon, you can make an additional free attack at your base attack bonus –5. You can make this extra attack during any round that you can make multiple attacks, but only with your chosen weapon type. This means that if you are of a high enough level to make additional attacks (you have at least a +6 or higher base attack bonus), you could make two additional attacks at your base attack bonus –5.
That is, it's saying "your normal BAB is +11, so you normally get one attack at BAB, one attack at BAB-5, and one attack at BAB-10. Using this ability gets you one attack at BAB, two attacks at BAB-5, and one attack at BAB-10.
Where's Triple strike from, and why does Speed not stack with it?
Note the Planar Touchstone thing does say it gives two attacks if your BAB is high enough for two attacks, so it does seem to give one attack for every attack you would otherwise have.
JaronK
This means that if you are of a high enough level to make additional attacks (you have at least a +6 or higher base attack bonus), you could make two additional attacks at your base attack bonus –5.
Having read the wording on Speed, I don't see any ambiguities in the wording. Is it stinky cheese? Absolutely. But then, so is the rest of this build!
I was able to get 25k attacks from a ECL ~4
without any Dragon/Dungeon or other third party material....
a Symbiotic Alternate Kobold / Petitioner Half-Illithid Mob 48 of Four-headed Tauric Chimeric Squid / Anthropomorphic Mob of 48 Woodling Squid
is a ECL 3 or 4, depending on how you read the Symbiotic template, that has 1 bite attack, 2 claw attacks, 2400 face tentacles, and 1 mob attack.
without any Dragon/Dungeon or other third party material....
a Symbiotic Alternate Kobold / Petitioner Half-Illithid Mob 48 of Four-headed Tauric Chimeric Squid / Anthropomorphic Mob of 48 Woodling Squid
is a ECL 3 or 4, depending on how you read the Symbiotic template, that has 1 bite attack, 2 claw attacks, 2400 face tentacles, and 1 mob attack.
page 59 is the mob.
i don't care about losing the attacks, i care about how many heads are there so that the half-illithid template gets INSANE
page 59 is the mob.
page 59 of what?
i don't care about losing the attacks, i care about how many heads are there so that the half-illithid template gets INSANE
And how are those individual attacks being used if the Mob creature loses it's normal attacks to gain the mob attack?
And there's a few issues with your template order. How is the mob as a whole eligible for the anthropomorphic template? And how is it a base for tauric? Or for taking class levels?
page 59 is the mob.
page 59 of what?
Sorry page 59 of the DMG2
Sadly mine seems to be missing ATM. Could you PM the full text, as what it seems you are trying to do is based on what would have to be intensely strict RAW reading of a template that would have to be worded with a terrible stupidity and lack of foresight, far more so than most WotC products.
Firstly, it would require that the attacks are lost only on template application, not overall as an ability. Secondly it would require that the template causes the mob to be treated as a single creature for all mechanical purposes, not a limited list. Thirdly it would require the mob to not ever be able to gain more HD, as the multi-headed template adds HD per head. Fourth it requires being able to create a mob of mobs. Fifth, it would require mob being an inherited template, as if it is acquired your template order does not work.
And on top of all that, I can't fathom where you got that idea that any of those templates adds an independent claw attack per limb, including tentacles.
Hmm... I thought it was agreed that since an acquired template can be added "any time", it could be added before other steps in creature creation, in flagrant violation of common sense? Otherwise you can't do White Dragonspawn Dragonwrought Kobolds and get all the goodies because you lose the Dragon type.That works because you choose race before feats.
On second thought, I'm not completely sure. Kind of piggybacking on someone else's statement-- EjoThims said the proposed template stacking order wouldn't work unless Mob was inherited (and nobody argued with him) but didn't specify which one broke it (or how), and I'm not entirely clear on the stacking order anyway (or the wording of Half-Illithid, Half-Dragonflesh-Golem, or Petitioner, or where to find them-- I can tell you that Half-Illithid isn't in LoM). But nobody else seemed clear on the wording of "Mob", and that's mostly what I was clarifying. Mobs also "don't make attacks" and instead either trample or do damage in a manner similar to swarms, and I'm not sure what you're adding that lets all those tentacles make attacks again. But whatever it is, Half-Farspawn adds two more tentacles.
Yeah, but it's still the same principle (that you don't need a complete creature to add an acquired template to). I can't recall any rule explicitly stating that acquired templates must be added after inherited templates, so the same interpretation of "Some templates can be added to creatures anytime." supports this to the same extent. Incidentally, I'm now arguing against this interpretation, since having looked at the rules again, the relevant paragraph on page 291 states, "Templates such as these are referred to as acquired templates, indicating that the creature did not always have the attributes of the template."Hmm... I thought it was agreed that since an acquired template can be added "any time", it could be added before other steps in creature creation, in flagrant violation of common sense? Otherwise you can't do White Dragonspawn Dragonwrought Kobolds and get all the goodies because you lose the Dragon type.That works because you choose race before feats.
At no time does a dragonwrought kobold not have featsHmm... I thought it was agreed that since an acquired template can be added "any time", it could be added before other steps in creature creation, in flagrant violation of common sense? Otherwise you can't do White Dragonspawn Dragonwrought Kobolds and get all the goodies because you lose the Dragon type.That works because you choose race before feats.
Firstly, it would require that the attacks are lost only on template application, not overall as an ability.
Secondly it would require that the template causes the mob to be treated as a single creature for all mechanical purposes, not a limited list.
A mob is treated as a single entity similar to a swarm, except that it is made of larger creatures.
Generally, mobs are transitory; after forming, a mob lasts for, at most, 1d4+1 hours before breaking up. Most mobs break up naturally far sooner, once the condition that caused their formation is no longer a factor.
Unlike standard swarms, mobs are made up of relatively small numbers of individual creatures, so spells or effects that target specific numbers of creatures can have an effect on a mob Each specific creature that is slain, disabled, or otherwise incapacitated by spells or effects that target specific creatures...
Although mobs are treated as one creature, it sometimes becomes necessary to determine the fate of a specific individual caught up in the mob.
Thirdly it would require the mob to not ever be able to gain more HD, as the multi-headed template adds HD per head.
Fourth it requires being able to create a mob of mobs.
Okay, rest of the reasons why Mob does not work.Firstly, it would require that the attacks are lost only on template application, not overall as an ability.
Petinent takes care of that, and that concern was my oversight. Very clever actually.
Secondly it would require that the template causes the mob to be treated as a single creature for all mechanical purposes, not a limited list.
This one is a bit tricky, but four parts of the mob template make mobs really seem not targetable by templates.
Emphasis mine, of course.
First, mobs are similar to swarms, not identical. They do not gain the swarm type or use the swarm rules. They only act as a swarm as noted in the template. Second, they tend not to last long; while there is no hard cap it's clearly noted that they exist for a sole purpose. Third, individuals within a mob still exist and spells and affects which target one creature or a set number of creatures are still effective and still affect only those individual creature.
So, I do not believe that mobs as a whole can be templated (since an individual creature is targetted within the mob), and even if they can, they certainly would not qualify for combination templates like tauric because they are clearly still composed of multiple creatures, despite counting as one for very specific purposes.
So already this, at worst, makes the whole thing a no go. At most conservative, eliminates anthropomorphic, tauric, and most painfully symbiotic, killing the low ECL trick of the build. But moving on, in case.
Thirdly it would require the mob to not ever be able to gain more HD, as the multi-headed template adds HD per head.
Mobs only ever have 30 HD, so I called this one, as incredibly edibly stupid as it is. And with the symbiotic rules, you don't gain those yourselves. This is why for my build I intentionally ignored symbiotes as well as cloning. It requires multiple characters in the attack routine and thusly, by definition, cannot be done in a single action.
Fourth it requires being able to create a mob of mobs.
As a mob is, by default, Gargantuan, it cannot be composed of another mob, since only Large and Small creatures are applicable targets.
This, by the way, certainly kills Tauric due to the relative size requirements, and IIRC anthropomorphic as well.
but it brings up some important options to the field, like using freak petitioners to the table, say a symbiotic dragonwrought kobold/paragon petitioner half-48 dragon tauric paragon two-headed anthropomorphic squid/paragon centipedes
At no time does a dragonwrought kobold not have featsHmm... I thought it was agreed that since an acquired template can be added "any time", it could be added before other steps in creature creation, in flagrant violation of common sense? Otherwise you can't do White Dragonspawn Dragonwrought Kobolds and get all the goodies because you lose the Dragon type.That works because you choose race before feats.
Right and wrong. In game, you are totally correct.
However, the rules are metagame concepts, and out of game, you are wrong. By the rules, a kobold, can acquire a template, even an acquired one before choosing class levels (and thusly feats), as template is part of race and race is chosen first.
Explain to me how this statement could be true if you can choose to apply an acquired template before the creature has feats.
why do you have to apply inherited templates before acquired ones? The rules don't say that, and "always part of a creature's existence" is precisely as limiting as "At one time..."
Your other objections to templating mobs are PURELY common sense (They don't last long, are composed of multiple individual creatures, etc).
Explain to me how this statement could be true if you can choose to apply an acquired template before the creature has feats.
I have a creature I am making. It has a race. As part of that race, I will give it an acquired template. Then I will give it levels, including feats.
Templates are a metagame concept, they are applied in metagame sequence of events, and this does not match up with in game time. Just as you must get class levels before feats, you must get race before feats as well. And race can include templates, acquired as well.
There is no contradiction here other than that you continue to assume that the logical conclusion of the story is dictating the rules.
why do you have to apply inherited templates before acquired ones? The rules don't say that, and "always part of a creature's existence" is precisely as limiting as "At one time..."
Except that always means it has to come first. Inherited have to come before acquired, because if there is a time you build the creature in which it does not have them, they cannot apply. It is a Kobold. Then it is a Half-Dragon kobold. Then it is a Skeletal Half-Dragon Kobold. It cannot be a Skeletal Kobold and then a Half-Dragon Skeletal Kobold, because that would create a time in the sequence of it's creature that it was not a Half-Dragon.
Your other objections to templating mobs are PURELY common sense (They don't last long, are composed of multiple individual creatures, etc).
The two smallest and weakest, which nothing else actually relies on to be support; the two that you could entirely take out of my last post and not change any of the conclusions but that were included for completeness are, yes.
The rest of the post is doesn't even have to do with the fluff restrictions of mob rules, but rather the much realer rule restrictions. Such as not actually having the swarm type and still counting as individual creatures. I suggest you finish reading my post and then respond.
Allow me to demonstrate.
I have a creature I am making. It has a race. As part of that race, I will give it an acquired template.
Just as you can take levels in one class before another, you can apply one template before another.
Being unlike a swarm is irrelevant....
Further, the rules describing the fates of individual creatures are specific exceptions to a mob's existence as a specific creature, otherwise they wouldn't be printed.
Allow me to demonstrate.
I have a creature I am making. It has a race. As part of that race, I will give it an acquired template.
And now it is no longer a valid target of an inherited template. The creature exists right now. At this moment in rules, it exists. It is a stat block that is in existence.
It is now no longer a valid target for an inherited template because said template would not have always been a part of said creature.
The only reason you seem to think there is a contradiction is because you are under the false notion that to exist the creature must exist in some kind of story or plot.
Just as you can take levels in one class before another, you can apply one template before another.
Indeed, this is true. But you can't take certain classes unless you meet certain requirements. The same is true of templates.
Being unlike a swarm is irrelevant....
Further, the rules describing the fates of individual creatures are specific exceptions to a mob's existence as a specific creature, otherwise they wouldn't be printed.
Being unlike a swarm is relevant in that because they are not a swarm, they only function as one creature when specifically called out as such, since acting together as one creature is not an aspect in any other way ascribed to the mob. And the template lists all those times in which it is treated as one creature. Templates are not one of them, nor are class levels. Noting that they are still individual creatures where it is important is the wise thing to do, but when it is otherwise still noted how and when a mob does act as one creature, it cannot be assumed to be the exception. The exceptions to the rules are the times the mob does act as a single creature. These times must be called out, as they are exceptions to the general. There is no call out for templates.
Although mobs are treated as one creature...
And now it is no longer a valid target of an inherited template. The creature exists right now. At this moment in rules, it exists. It is a stat block that is in existence.
It is now no longer a valid target for an inherited template because said template would not have always been a part of said creature.
The only reason you seem to think there is a contradiction is because you are under the false notion that to exist the creature must exist in some kind of story or plot.
Why does it exist when you're still working on its race when it doesn't have to exist as a creature when you're working on its feats, which (as you say) come afterward?
And where is it said that a requirement for taking an inherited template is that you not have an acquired template?
"Now it's a Skeleton Kobold so you can't apply Half-Dragon" is a valid objection because now it's an actual creature, then "Now it's a Kobold so you can't apply Half-Dragon" should be, too. Which is obviously ridiculous.
Although mobs are treated as one creature...
Although means that "treated as one creature" is the general case, because you're setting up all their non-single creature attributes as exceptions to that.
You may as well be arguing that the type pyramid does not applyWhich it doesn't. It's ends up getting superceded for three entirely separate reasons (aside from being described as being more like guidelines than actual rules).
Instead of Crescent Knives, why don't you use Manyfang Daggers? Manyfang Daggers get Quadruple the number of attacks (Quintuple if critical). Daggers can also be used as thrown weapons, so you can double that again with Palm Throw (for 8 attacks per attack). That should give you a lot more attacks.
(I didn't read the whole thread, so i'm sorry if this has been suggested/refused already!)
Can't you just buy a bunch of Skeleton Hand graft to wield weapons?